Has the War Against AI Already Been Lost?

Started by Shiranu, February 13, 2023, 05:19:13 PM

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#90
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Shiranu

#91
Quote from: Hydra009 on February 23, 2023, 06:40:17 PMForgive my ignorance, but how exactly do AIs work?  From what little I've read, it's mostly a combination of logic gates, evolutionary algorithims, and large databases to draw upon (for example, human-produced art or human-identified traffic lights).  I didn't think it was at the stage of complexity to rival an organic nervous system.

What I meant by that was that scientists didn't just decide, "Oh... let's just give it a random name!" and just coincidentally decided to call it the same operating system that we use - rather they used the most accurate description of it, and it happens to be that description is the same one that our own neural network is called.

Of course there are pretty fundamental differences, but I think those differences are generally in terms of construction rather than end product; there is no reason to believe that AI cannot be just as intelligent as us, and obviously quite far beyond that. If you want to call it a "large database to draw upon" or "memory/education", the net result and general mechanicisms remain the same; the ability to recall knowledge and process it into something new.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Shiranu

"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Gawdzilla Sama

We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

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#94
Quote from: Shiranu on February 24, 2023, 03:53:20 AMWhat have i precisely lied about?
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Shiranu

Quote from: ManUfan on February 25, 2023, 04:06:56 PMI'm not going to engage with you. I've said what I think.
People can read your stuff and make their own minds up.



So just to be clear, you are making repeated personal attacks on me and refusing to actually substantiate them with any evidence?
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

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#96
Quote from: Shiranu on February 25, 2023, 04:39:10 PMSo just to be clear, you are making repeated personal attacks on me and refusing to actually substantiate them with any evidence?

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Shiranu

#97
*Editted because editted before he responded; his quotation is accurate to the original quote.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

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#98
Quote from: Shiranu on February 25, 2023, 05:06:45 PMSo what exactly did I lie about?

In a thread where you have lied multiple times - hell, on *this very page* I have already caught you in the lie that I brought up machines & tools when you were the first person in this thread to mention them; I even then provided the easiest means to go and double check that I was wrong, that both you and everyone else is capable of doing.

For this, you continue to call  me a liar - and you also began spam flaming me.

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#99
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Shiranu

Quote from: ManUfan on February 25, 2023, 05:38:07 PMAnd ban me if you like I'm not really bothered.
I really don't think that's necessary; I think something is just being missed here, so I'm making a comprehensive set of photos as to exactly what definitions I'm citing from the dictionary.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

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#101
Quote from: Shiranu on February 25, 2023, 05:48:14 PMI really don't think that's necessary; I think something is just being missed here, so I'm making a comprehensive set of photos as to exactly what definitions I'm citing from the dictionary.


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Shiranu

#102
Order of quotes was moved around to provide a more cohesive rebuttal and reduce the need to engage in redundant re-explaining of certain concepts.


QuoteGive me a dictionary definition of humans that mentions this.

That's not required; for example, I could call humans "interesting" - the fact that the dictionary doesn't explicitly state that humans aren't interesting wouldn't therefor invalidate the fact that I find humans interesting.

In the sentence, "Humans are a form of machine.", "Humans" is the noun of the sentence and "machines" is a attributive noun - a noun that can double as an adjective.


QuoteYou said by definition humans are machines. That's a lie.



Using their primary definition, it is a device operated by "mechanical, electrical or electronic" energy.

We certainly fit the mechanical bill - all of our muscles and pivotal joints operate on mechanical principles. Electricity is what powers our central nervous system, so that's a check.

And some of us even rely on electronics to continue operating; pacemakers, artificial lungs, etc. - and who knows what the future could hold with cybernetic technologies.

*edit - and truly just because I was curious, we are also "devices" as well; we were "made" to keep on making more humans, that is our biological imperative.

It also means something fanciful, elaborate, or intricate in design, so fit that as well.


QuoteHumans are not machines. We are far more hormonal than that.

And this is where I think the breakdown is; yes, we absolutely are not machines in the sense that we don't have electronics as a part of our nature - but that isn't all a machine is, and AI is the spearhead of the argument - and some think they are alive.

Either it's telling the truth, or it's behaving erratically; either way is troubling for a system that we are now giving license to kill.

And if it's telling the truth then it has two really troubling implications - is humanity ready to create a life-form that rivals and exceeds us in information capacity and potentially in all other regards as well... and should humanity even have that power in the first place?

It's a question for our brightest minds - the Socrates, Confucius, the Stoics, the Enlightenment (of whichever country or region you wish) - , not one for our politicians and generals, our Zuckerbergs and Musks.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Shiranu

Quote from: ManUfan on February 25, 2023, 05:54:21 PMCool.

I'm usually a laid back sort of dude.

I apologize btw for my language we just talk like that around here.

If I'm wrong I'm wrong, it won't be the first time.

Totally get it.

I can only speak for myself, but I really don't care about any of the vulgarities or anything like that; it's just the personal stuff can quickly bring a forum into absolute chaos.

If you had said anything *really* out of line, I would have let you know - just that around there is about the line.

And if someone is a fucking liar, absolutely feel free to call them it; just back it up :P.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Hydra009

Quote from: ManUfan on February 25, 2023, 05:30:47 PMYou said by definition humans are machines. That's a lie.
I think the main problem is a lack of common reference point.

When studying biology, especially at the molecular scale, the obvious analogy is to machines - flagellum "motors", the electrical nervous system is like the wires snaking through an electronic device, bone joints like hinges, potassium pumps somewhat like...well, you get the idea.  Hence, Shiranu's comparison.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_machine