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Started by Dreamer, January 19, 2023, 11:20:41 PM

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Unbeliever

Well, judging by the Old Testament, God is definitely an arsehole.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

aitm

God allowed 2/3rds of his followers to die before he "granted" them a victory...doesn't give me a lot of confidence in ole god.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Unbeliever

Yeah, but he won his bet with Satan. Or did he? I forget. 🤔
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Blackleaf

#123
Quote from: Dreamer on February 05, 2023, 03:11:07 PMI see it similar to a muscle. The more you practice, the stronger and more reliable it becomes. When you first begin playing a sport, you'll win every now and then; that condition doesn't persist with training. That is to say, there's a point in following God, even when we get it wrong.

For me, guilt and anxiety can often color what I think God is wanting me to do. I try to temper that in a variety of ways: reading the Bible and other sacred texts, waiting worship, emotional exploration to see if it's just my own anxieties, prayer, even mantras to address feelings of guilt and anxiety. And to remind me that I am a child of God and under God's protection and authority, I sometimes wear a hat or scarf or snood like women used to do a long time ago (and some still do).

I also make sure that it passes through the dual prisms of loving God and loving others as myself as a standard litmus test. Jesus refers to these two tenants multiple times, as fulfilling the Law and Prophets, as the greatest commandment, and the secret to eternal life.

A lot of churches are as you described. I remember as a preteen attending a revival at a very large, very loud church. Lots of whooping and yelling, dancing, "tongues"... The pastor put his hand on my forehead and screamed a prayer in combination English and "prayer language" over me. His hand shook, and he kept pushing on my head. I was surrounded by people, many touching me. My neck was hurting, and I hate loud noises, so I was ready for him to move on. Then the pastor pushed pretty hard, and I remember hands pulling me down. I didn't get that after he prayed for someone, the expectation was that they would pass out or lose control of their bodies in response. When I didn't, he was trying to encourage me to fall back. And apparently had arranged with the deacons to just take down anyone who didn't follow the stage directions. I cried for a while on that floor, and I'm sure people thought I was having some divine experience or something. I was scared and overstimulated, and to be honest, I can still feel that sense of violation creeping up in me. Those types of churches still make me leery...

But, I love the Friends. Many Meetings (Quaker church) don't use music at all, nor have prepared messages. We often refer to the Light, and there are people who only use that language rather than God because.. they're agnostics or atheists lol

We believe that God dwells within, and God can speak to all of us, to our condition. We can cultivate that inner Light, and that work is easiest in community.

My Meeting does have a pastor, but we believe that everyone can be a minister. We have a time of silence, and sometimes people share messages. It's refreshing to hear doubts and struggles amid words of blessings, proverbs, etc. It's like the opposite of that uncomfortable revival experience.

I am similar. I'm an introvert, so my Pentecostal church I grew up in never appealed to me. When my family switched to a Lutheran church, it was refreshing. The pastor actually talked like a normal human being. He didn't act like a fucking lunatic, use church jargon, slam his fists on the pulpit, or speak gibberish.

The music was an improvement too. I can't stand Gospel music, especially when the music minister repeats the chorus as many times as he feels like. It was less loud, and didn't use language that was two centuries out of date.

That was when I actually started enjoying going to church. It helps when the experience isn't an assault on all the senses.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Dreamer

Quote from: ManUfan on February 05, 2023, 04:12:27 PMJust to add.

Dreamer's condition or previous condition is in no way life threatening if treated in a timely fashion by health care professionals.

Leave it to prayer and God, I'm not too sure.

Yes, and it was not my intention to imply otherwise. It can be debilitating, rarely life threatening.

I have two areas of lingering concern: eye issues and thyroid storm. Sometimes even in remission, the eyes can develop a condition where they are very dry and actually protrude forward. My vanity fears this, besides it looks uncomfortable and painful. Thyroid storm isn't a great risk in terms of probability, in my understanding, but I always note its possibility on work stuff, conferences, etc. If I suddenly start hallucinating, I want them to check my blood ASAP as they're strapping me to the bed. That would be horrid enough, but to die if they didn't catch it right away...

Argh, late nights bring trauma to the forefront. I've lately watched my niece restrained to the bed as a psychiatric hold. I've seen it before; the first time she was 10...

I was religiously conditioned to reject psychology and treatments in favor of faith healing. And, if I (or whomever) wasn't healed, there were some likely reasons given by my church: God was testing me, the Devil was threatened by my faith and seeking to destroy me, my faith was too little, my faith was impure or otherwise tainted, I was not in obedience with God, I was breaking commandments, I was deviating from God's path, God was protecting me from something worse, I was being put through trials to refine myself, and there were others...

God can and does heal, but he doesn't disrupt our entire universe to do so. We have rules and forces governing our world, and if you've ever had someone sit in *your* spot (Nevermind that there's no seating chart or rules or guidelines, you've just always sat there), then you have an inkling of why that is. Beyond that, it's the condition of the heart that God greatly regards--we should seek out and respond to the needs of those around us. In those acts of love and service, our hearts are both broken and healed.
<br /><br />Individually, we are one drop.  Together, we are an ocean.<br /><br />

Dreamer

Somewhat connected to the concept of faith healing...

This afternoon, a severe headache suddenly fell on me, and the next thing I knew I was waking up-still with the headache-to my son wanting cuddles before bed. I remembered that I have my headscarves in my room, and I grabbed a large one. When I knot it and pull it tight, it lessens the pain better than pain killers.

I came into this knowledge when I was beginning to take steps of faithfulness to God's direction in my life. For years, I had felt the call to wear head coverings. But I didn't want to stand out; too much, too weird even for me..

So, I made a 1-year commitment. There's two Biblical ideas that prompted me... One, was that by wearing a head coverings, it is a reminder that I have someone (God) over me, to cover and protect me. Two, was that Christians were called to wear head coverings if their neighbors of another religion were being persecuted for doing the same. (There are also Biblical reasons that there's no need to cover to be in alignment with God--in today's culture where it is not shameful for a woman to have short and even fully shorn hair, there's no call to do it at all, to be right with God. That is, it's left up to us to decide if it's right for us.) I felt called to do it, and I decided to see where obedience to God would get me..

I have suffered from sinus headaches for years, often unable to read, drive, or do anything but be in pain and sleep. They told me surgery could help, but I know three people who had sinus surgery, and the relief was gone within a couple years of the surgery.

I never would have made this connection to such an easy, non-invasive treatment option, if I hadn't been receptive to God's leadings. And to think I could have enjoyed years of reduced pain and better ability to function, if I would have listened sooner...
<br /><br />Individually, we are one drop.  Together, we are an ocean.<br /><br />

Dreamer

Quote from: Unbeliever on February 05, 2023, 06:11:39 PMYeah, but he won his bet with Satan. Or did he? I forget. 🤔

I think the Book of Job is the most troubling. I have not read it since my understanding has evolved/improved...

Last time I read it I was 16, and I was playing Sarah (the wife who leaves Job after he loses everything else; but-spoiler alert-she returns in the play) in a play called JB, based on Job.

I was atheist/agnostic then, and it pissed me off the whims and capriciousness of these immortal beings making bets on human misery. I confess I haven't read it in its entirety since then largely due to the potential for cognitive dissonance
<br /><br />Individually, we are one drop.  Together, we are an ocean.<br /><br />

Dreamer

Quote from: Unbeliever on February 05, 2023, 03:59:24 PMBut God cannot be both omniscient and free.

If God is omniscient then he's always known everything he would ever do, and everything he would not ever do. So he cannot be free to not do anything he's always known he would do, and he cannot be free to do anything he's always known he would not ever do.

So God is either not omniscient or God is not free. Which do you believe is the case?

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
<br /><br />Individually, we are one drop.  Together, we are an ocean.<br /><br />

Gawdzilla Sama

Do we know which of the thousands of gods Dreamer is talking about? Wouldn't want to worship the wrong god, he'll kill your ass for that.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Mike Cl

Quote from: Dreamer on February 22, 2023, 01:53:52 AMFor my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Are you sure?????  I thought Bugs Bunny said that!  Or was it Pacos Bill.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: Mike Cl on February 22, 2023, 07:43:14 PMAre you sure?????  I thought Bugs Bunny said that!  Or was it Pacos Bill.
Bugs said "something something something Albuquerque something something."
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Dreamer

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on February 22, 2023, 06:38:48 PMDo we know which of the thousands of gods Dreamer is talking about? Wouldn't want to worship the wrong god, he'll kill your ass for that.

God. God who doesn't kill your ass for that.
<br /><br />Individually, we are one drop.  Together, we are an ocean.<br /><br />

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: Dreamer on February 22, 2023, 09:14:16 PMGod. God who doesn't kill your ass for that.
We can agree that no god kills anybody.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Dreamer

Quote from: Blackleaf on February 05, 2023, 07:37:47 PMI am similar. I'm an introvert, so my Pentecostal church I grew up in never appealed to me. When my family switched to a Lutheran church, it was refreshing. The pastor actually talked like a normal human being. He didn't act like a fucking lunatic, use church jargon, slam his fists on the pulpit, or speak gibberish.

The music was an improvement too. I can't stand Gospel music, especially when the music minister repeats the chorus as many times as he feels like. It was less loud, and didn't use language that was two centuries out of date.

That was when I actually started enjoying going to church. It helps when the experience isn't an assault on all the senses.

The first time I attended a Pentecostal service, it gave me a headache. I thought I'd have some relief when the pastor started talking. But he declared that every other flavor and every other religion has it so horribly wrong and are going to hell, amen.

Churches are dying out, and one of the reasons is the dubious entertainment attempts. We have something real to explore together; we don't need to assault the senses or terrify people or smugly judge or invoke endless platitudes to make everyone feel good. We can meet people where they are and celebrate their inner light, face challenges together. Churches have to change, to be places for healing and peace for all.
<br /><br />Individually, we are one drop.  Together, we are an ocean.<br /><br />