Has the War Against AI Already Been Lost?

Started by Shiranu, February 13, 2023, 05:19:13 PM

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Hydra009

#15
Quote from: ManUfan on February 14, 2023, 04:23:50 AMMachines are just tools. There's always going to be human involvement to keep them ticking over.
Yes, there's probably always going to be a small human workforce necessary to tend to the machines, but definitely not enough people are needed to keep everyone who wants a job gainfully employed.  Either we accept mass unemployment (and associated death) or we accept universal basic income, and even that's not a complete fix.

QuoteIf it comes to a point where machinery gets to big for it's boots, I'm sure it's nothing some wire snips or a sledgehammer can't sort out.
That's not an actual solution.  Automation is worldwide and not just something you can wipe out at a whim.  At least not without declaring a Butlerian Jihad or something.

Besides, it's a bizarre thing to invent new technology constantly then hit a point where you don't like it then smash your workshop.  Humans are strange that way and many other ways.  And this is coming from someone who is definitely a human and loves consuming various plant and animal cells for sustenance before defecating them out, shedding dead skin cells everywhere, lapsing into involuntary torpor for a solid 8 hours every day, and accidentally consuming spider eggs.  Biological existence is so lovely!

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: Shiranu on February 14, 2023, 05:32:59 PMSo you are saying AI don't exist?
My personal rule of "SO" is "Any response beginning in "So..." should be checked for a strawman argument.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Blackleaf

If AI takes too much of a role, without an alternative means of income for humans, the rich will have no one to buy their shit, and if they go too far, the poor will turn on the rich and kill them in violent mobs.

Things could get worse, and they will, but there is a tipping point.

God, can you imagine Republicans in the future, when universal basic income becomes a necessity? They throw a fucking fit when they hear people CONSIDERING banning gas stoves. Maybe we should invent a time machine and throw them into the past, where they all want to live anyway. Let us move on to the future in our own timeline.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Shiranu

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on February 14, 2023, 08:11:35 PMMy personal rule of "SO" is "Any response beginning in "So..." should be checked for a strawman argument.
So you weren't comparing a non-existent thing (vacuums caused by cars) to an existent thing (AI)?
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

the_antithesis

Quote from: Shiranu on February 14, 2023, 05:38:59 PMhttp://intellinews.com/turkey-possibly-behind-world-s-first-battlefield-killing-by-autonomous-combat-drone-212320/

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You'd said that earlier and I think that's the kind of thing that will distract from the real problem we'll have to deal with, namely that after eight years of medical school, you won't be able to find work because medical bots are doing those jobs.

If-- if your senario happens, I don't think it will be because the robots decided that humans are inferior and to wipe us all out but because the elite decide they don't need the working classes anymore and have us eradicated.

That's more likely in my mind.

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: Shiranu on February 14, 2023, 10:22:57 PMSo you weren't comparing a non-existent thing (vacuums caused by cars) to an existent thing (AI)?

My personal rule of "SO"...
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

M

#21
Quote from: Shiranu on February 14, 2023, 05:34:32 PMHumans are also machines - ergo humans are tools; does that mean there will always have to be a creator (God?) for man to keep us ticking?



H
QuoteAnd when the machinery is armed and can defend itself?


W

Gawdzilla Sama

We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Shiranu

Don't worry, now we are giving them fighter jets.

https://theaviationist.com/2023/02/14/artificial-intelligence-successfully-piloted-the-x-62-vista/

QuoteThe AI agents performed advanced fighter maneuvers against simulated adversaries during 12 flights.
The U.S. Air Force just announced that Artificial Intelligence agents successfully piloted the X-62A Variable Stability In-Flight Simulator Test Aircraft during a total of 12 flights. While the news was published on February 13, 2023, the test happened between December 1 and 16, 2022, with the joint Department of Defense team launching the aircraft from Edwards Air Force Base, California.

The test campaign involved two AI agents, the Air Force Research Laboratory's Autonomous Air Combat Operations and the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency's Air Combat Evolution, each performing in different roles. In fact, while the AACO's AI agents performed one-on-one beyond-visual-range (BVR) engagements against a simulated adversary, the ACE's AI agents performed within-visual-range maneuvering, also known as "dogfighting", against constructive AI red-team agents.

But no, I'm sure like every other tool and machine the military has invented this will *never* be used to hurt innocent people or be replicated by hostile forces.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Shiranu

#24
QuoteHumans are not a product of ingenuity and have never required a God for us to function. Not sure what your point is.

Are the natural laws of nature not ingenuity?

Creative and inventive... sounds like Mother Nature to me.

Humans behave exactly like machines - we just have fancy organic parts to transmit the currents and the illusions of free will instead of wires, diodes and motherboards and digital coding... and a lot of our systems work the same way as a computer at pretty fundamental levels; both in terms of intellect and the use of electronic currents to generate consciousness.

The point is that if machines are just tools, than humans are just tools... so by your definition, we must have a creator.

So to judge AI for these things is logically inconsistent with reality; and to underestimate the damage they can do is logically foolish - they are as "alive" as us, or at least reaching that point... and life is both an unpredictable beast and something we flawed beings have no right to be meddling with.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Gawdzilla Sama

QuoteCreative and inventive...

God is hiding in the chemistry now? That's silly.

Quotesounds like Mother Nature to me.

Only because bald assertions are all you have.

We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Shiranu

QuoteGod is hiding in the chemistry now? That's silly.

Who said anything about hiding?

QuoteOnly because bald assertions are all you have.

So you would say the natural processes were neither creative or inventive in the formation of humans?

What would say created mankind then if not nature?

Hyper-contrarian to the point you are contrarian to your own beliefs.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Mike Cl

Quote from: Shiranu on February 16, 2023, 05:33:56 PMWhat would say created mankind then if not nature?
I would not use the word 'creation' for anything.  I understand the universe to be full of chemical,  minerals, substances and whatever other terms one can use.  In some places and times, those things are in such amounts that certain things can happen (doesn't mean it does all the time), like life.  Life is based upon certain substances, in certain amounts and in perfect conditions for life to happen.  It is purely coincidental.  It is not 'created' by nature.  The universe has no feeling or care about life or not life.  It just is.  Life happens--I don't consider it to a 'creation' because there is not a brain, or a mind, or a will or anything other than math functioning.   
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: Shiranu on February 16, 2023, 05:33:56 PMWho said anything about hiding?

So you would say the natural processes were neither creative or inventive in the formation of humans?

What would say created mankind then if not nature?

Hyper-contrarian to the point you are contrarian to your own beliefs.
Hiding as in "he ain't fucking there", that kind of hiding.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Hydra009

#29
Quote from: Shiranu on February 16, 2023, 03:25:20 PMHumans behave exactly like machines - we just have fancy organic parts to transmit the currents and the illusions of free will instead of wires, diodes and motherboards and digital coding... and a lot of our systems work the same way as a computer at pretty fundamental levels; both in terms of intellect and the use of electronic currents to generate consciousness.
I broadly agree, though I would caution against pressing this analogy too far - a lot of human biology is messy and inefficient in ways that computers would never be.  Imagine using software where most of the code apparently doesn't code anything (much of the seemingly non-functional code likely regulates functional code, we think), a sizable chunk of the code is definitely from viral attacks that didn't quite work out for the virus, and another chunk is pseudocode (code that would work if not for - for lack of a better word - "typos" that borked it)

QuoteThe point is that if machines are just tools, than humans are just tools... so by your definition, we must have a creator.
The fundamental difference is we know that tools are deliberately designed with a particular purpose in mind because we deliberately designed them with a particular purpose in mind.  We cannot make any such inference with nature, including humans.