News:

Welcome to our site!

Main Menu

Howdy, ya'all

Started by Dreamer, January 19, 2023, 11:20:41 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Dreamer

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 30, 2023, 05:11:23 PMI don't know what it is that you just said.  In your view, god created humans (hands and all) and defined what 'physical ways' are.  according to theists god is perfect and incapable of imperfection; so all that is has to be to his liking and intent.   

He created us in his image, but we are not the exact same. We're bound by the rules of this universe, subjected to a myriad of forces that we both understand and that we have yet to grapple with. God wanted us to have choices and experiences--and to choose love even when it's hard. Sacrifice would be meaningless without free will. Love would also be meaningless.

Yet we know it is the only thing of lasting value. Well, I know it, and I hope you do as well.
<br /><br />Individually, we are one drop.  Together, we are an ocean.<br /><br />

Dreamer

Quote from: ManUfan on January 30, 2023, 03:17:29 PMIt devalues the years of study that medical professionals undertake, it devalues the brilliance of science and it's an insult to the millions of people who suffer with debilitating conditions when God is thanked by the lucky individuals who recover.

There is absolutely no evidence that a God has EVER intervened in anything let alone your recovery, so why thank God?
You might as well thank Napoleon or Ken Dodd.

I have my evidence that God worked to heal me, and there's plenty of similar anecdotal experiences.

Should I not celebrate my recovery, in light of so many still with Graves disease and even more grave diseases? Is it wrong to be happy, when others are simultaneously sad? Is it wrong to be thankful that I am healed? Why?
<br /><br />Individually, we are one drop.  Together, we are an ocean.<br /><br />

Dreamer

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 28, 2023, 12:35:48 PMI don't know why your statement reminds me of this phrase that theists love to utter--'There but for the grace of God, go I.'  What I did not realize when I said it myself, is that I was saying that God loves me, but apparently not you.
Hubris and religious people go hand-in-hand.

I don't think I often used they phrase, but I'm weeding it out anyway now. It seems rather flippant at best and patronizing and cruel at worst..
<br /><br />Individually, we are one drop.  Together, we are an ocean.<br /><br />

Hydra009

#93
Quote from: Dreamer on February 02, 2023, 11:35:38 PMwe wondered together what could have happened if Joseph hadn't believed or listened.


I mean, I hate to break it to ya, but some guy having dreams that his wife was knocked up by God prooobably wasn't the original story, but a later embellishment created by people who came to worship this Jesus figure he probably never even met.  And do you have any idea how many people claimed to be born from a god back in those times?  It was also not unheard of for kings on shall we say unstable political footing (or to cover up being bastard-born) to claim to this god or that god as his father.

Blackleaf

#94
Quote from: Hydra009 on February 03, 2023, 12:49:59 AM

I mean, I hate to break it to ya, but some guy having dreams that his wife was knocked up by God prooobably wasn't the original story, but a later embellishment created by people who came to worship this Jesus figure he probably never even met.  And do you have any idea how many people claimed to be born from a god back in those times?  It was also not unheard of for kings on shall we say unstable political footing (or to cover up being bastard-born) to claim to this god or that god as his father.

Joseph's dream about Mary is probably one of the more believable parts of Jesus' origin story. I think it's very likely Mary got knocked up, but Joseph wasn't the father. Mary claimed to still be a virgin, which, of course, is absurd. Joseph makes plans to quietly end his wedding arrangements, because he's not cruel enough to have Mary dragged into the streets to be stoned to death. However, Joseph goes to bed that night and has a dream of an angel telling him what he wants to hear. In reality, it's not a miracle, or an actual angel visiting him. It's just his subconscious giving him justification to remain with Mary, offering him relief from his immense disappointment.

Maybe he didn't even totally believe it. Maybe he told everyone he was the father, and he just couldn't wait until after marriage. Doesn't matter, except that he stuck with her after his dream.

I also believe the story where Jesus' family comes to collect Jesus, because they fear he has lost his mind, and Jesus blows them off. It doesn't sound like his family really believed he was the Messiah either. Heck, Jesus even notes how his hometown was the least receptive of his message. They saw him grow up, and knew he was just a regular guy. He had to go out and find total strangers to convince.

The rest is a bunch of nonsense, though. A census requiring people to return to their hometowns? Uhh... That's not how censuses work. The purpose of a census is to know how many people live in each area, for taxation purposes. If they wanted to know where everyone's place of origin was, just for curiousity's sake, they could have just asked. This feels like just a flimsy excuse to get Jesus to be born in the town of Bethlehem instead of the place they lived, for prophecy's sake.

King Herod feeling threatened by some random infant, enough to even execute all the infant boys in the town? Silly. Didn't happen.

Wise men following a star to a specific town? How...? It's a star. Stars move in the night sky as the Earth rotates. Was it just hanging over Jesus' head at all times, like a quest marker? Whatever. So they show up with gold, but not enough to make Jesus' family not poor, I guess. They find local shepherds worshipping him after being pointed there by angels. These shepherds apparently immediately forget about Jesus and don't bother telling anyone about the whole baby Christ thing or corroborating his story after he grows up.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

M

Quote from: Dreamer on February 03, 2023, 12:02:14 AMI have my evidence that God worked to heal me,


Great. Show me the evidence and we can put this thing to bed.

Quoteand there's plenty of similar anecdotal experiences.


Anecdotes aren't evidence. Plenty of people claim that they've been abducted by aliens. Saying random stuff isn't evidence.

QuoteShould I not celebrate my recovery, in light of so many still with Graves disease and even more grave diseases? Is it wrong to be happy, when others are simultaneously sad? Is it wrong to be thankful that I am healed? Why?


No it's not wrong to be thankful, as long as your gratitude is well directed.



Mike Cl

Quote from: Dreamer on February 02, 2023, 11:45:41 PMHe created us in his image, but we are not the exact same. We're bound by the rules of this universe, subjected to a myriad of forces that we both understand and that we have yet to grapple with. God wanted us to have choices and experiences--and to choose love even when it's hard. Sacrifice would be meaningless without free will. Love would also be meaningless.

Yet we know it is the only thing of lasting value. Well, I know it, and I hope you do as well.
The bible does say god created man in his own image. Sort of:
Genesis 1, 27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

and:
Genesis 2, 22:And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

So which is it??   

You have stated this a few times: We're bound by the rules of this universe,.............
Yeah, we are.  But whatever those rules were they were created (as you assert) by god.  Is not your god the perfect creature and is perfect in every way?  And his one shinning standard is 'love'?!  If so, then the entire universe has to reflect that.  What is your definition of love, anyway?  Where does birth defects fit in?  where does the tape worm fit it?  Why all the bacterial and viral diseases come from?  Why MUST a human kill to live?  How does any of that reflect love?????
 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

M

I find Dreamer a tad dishonest.
I saw what Dreamer wrote and later deleted.

Stick to what you type Dreamer, I don't really care that you didn't think that your doctor was worthy of your thanks for healing you but God is.

If you want a conversation with me... Say what you're thinking, and stick to it.

Unbeliever

Why do none of these Christians understand that "anecdotal evidence" is an oxymoron?
🤔
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

M

I was in a field one day. A cow walked behind a bush, when it came out the other side it was a horse.
I saw it with my own eyes, so there you go.... Shape shifting animals are a thing.

Anecdotal evidence is irrefutable.

Dreamer

Quote from: ManUfan on February 03, 2023, 02:34:39 PMI find Dreamer a tad dishonest.
I saw what Dreamer wrote and later deleted.

Stick to what you type Dreamer, I don't really care that you didn't think that your doctor was worthy of your thanks for healing you but God is.

If you want a conversation with me... Say what you're thinking, and stick to it.

?? If I deleted anything, it was accidental. Happy to reverse it if there is such a mechanism.

 Not sure what you mean, though, as I have shared more than once that I thanked my doctor for her help. I also thanked God. Gratitude to God does not lessen gratitude to humans, and I wrote quite a bit on that..
<br /><br />Individually, we are one drop.  Together, we are an ocean.<br /><br />

Dreamer

Quote from: ManUfan on February 04, 2023, 06:23:11 AMI was in a field one day. A cow walked behind a bush, when it came out the other side it was a horse.
I saw it with my own eyes, so there you go.... Shape shifting animals are a thing.

Anecdotal evidence is irrefutable.

And yet my own experience is paramount, just as yours is to you. Assumptions must be tested and explored.

It was more than just the healing. It was the surety that it was coming, despite the doctor trying to curtail expectations.

The cool thing is, it doesn't lessen what happened, regardless of how anyone else chooses to interpret it.

It affects things the same as if someone believes that things fall to the ground due to invisible fairies rather than due to gravity. Gravity did its thing and will continue to do so, quite independent from anyone's understanding. God is likewise.
<br /><br />Individually, we are one drop.  Together, we are an ocean.<br /><br />

Dreamer

Quote from: Unbeliever on February 03, 2023, 08:11:09 PMWhy do none of these Christians understand that "anecdotal evidence" is an oxymoron?
🤔

But it's not. It's just not been studied in a scientifically rigorous way; or, as with my evidence, does not lend itself to replication. That is, it should be approached with caution and not construed as understanding the entire picture.

Anecdotal evidence can be collected and compiled for use in science, and this happens regularly with psychology and sociology, for instance.

<br /><br />Individually, we are one drop.  Together, we are an ocean.<br /><br />

Dreamer

Quote from: Mike Cl on February 03, 2023, 09:04:37 AMThe bible does say god created man in his own image. Sort of:
Genesis 1, 27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

and:
Genesis 2, 22:And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

So which is it??


One informs and details the other; they are not in contradiction.

The suffering in the world is due to sin. Sin is mistakes, anything that separates us from love. Sin is knowing what the right thing to do is, but not doing it. Free will is wonderful, but lots of risks as well.
<br /><br />Individually, we are one drop.  Together, we are an ocean.<br /><br />

Blackleaf

Quote from: Dreamer on February 05, 2023, 01:20:22 AMBut it's not. It's just not been studied in a scientifically rigorous way; or, as with my evidence, does not lend itself to replication. That is, it should be approached with caution and not construed as understanding the entire picture.

Anecdotal evidence can be collected and compiled for use in science, and this happens regularly with psychology and sociology, for instance.



A survey isn't the same as anecdotal evidence. A researcher forms sample sizes of a large enough size to justify representing the population, and they do it in a way to limit as many extraneous factors as possible. Disconnected, anecdotal accounts are a very biased way to approach a subject. In cases like yours, for example, all of the stories are coming from the survivors who were healed, not the people who died from their afflictions or survived but continued to live with severe symptoms. Those people are unable or uncompelled to tell their stories, hence why the anecdotal evidence given is not informative.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--