Quote from: aitm on January 27, 2023, 08:01:43 PMGod to the world:  I give to you this world, of wonder and peace....though you will have to kill each other and eat each other to survive....have a nice day. That's some kinda fucked up god there.

God could have just made us sycophants without free will, but then we wouldn't be in God's image.

Sin (mistakes) created these conditions.

Does God have "free will"?

Quote from: Dreamer on January 30, 2023, 11:53:11 AMOh, wow, I've said that before but never meant that God loves me, not the other. I took it as a way of finding myself in the other's shoes. That could easily be me. I don't think God chose to save me and not another.

Interesting the varied messages we get from the same words.

I cannot tell you how many times I've heard something to the effect--I was saved by the grace of god.  So, the average christian does believe that god picks and choses who to bestow his grace on.  So, for most christians, god does pick and chose.  If god does not pick and chose to save people, then how does one explain why I was born relatively intact, while millions are born with defects?  If there is no reason, then it is just luck.  But did not god craft the universe with skill and thoughtful crafting and not luck?  And since god is the ultimate good and fair and perfect being, then this must be on purpose. 

Quote from: Dreamer on January 30, 2023, 11:47:58 AMI feel grateful.

Special? Not from that. Nothing I've done has made me more worthy or deserving; I just was healed. And I'm grateful to have my hair stop falling out, among other unpleasantness that stopped when Graves ceased.

Great. There is nothing wrong with showing gratitude as long as it's directed towards the people who actually helped you.

If it helps you in life to thank God, crack on with it, but don't expect me to understand it.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 30, 2023, 02:01:41 PMI cannot tell you how many times I've heard something to the effect--I was saved by the grace of god.  So, the average christian does believe that god picks and choses who to bestow his grace on.  So, for most christians, god does pick and chose.  If god does not pick and chose to save people, then how does one explain why I was born relatively intact, while millions are born with defects?  If there is no reason, then it is just luck.  But did not god craft the universe with skill and thoughtful crafting and not luck?  And since god is the ultimate good and fair and perfect being, then this must be on purpose. 

God relies on human hands and physical ways; otherwise there would be no order to the universe, and God would indeed be capricious and cruel.

Quote from: ManUfan on January 30, 2023, 02:43:28 PMGreat. There is nothing wrong with showing gratitude as long as it's directed towards the people who actually helped you.

If it helps you in life to thank God, crack on with it, but don't expect me to understand it.

Why is it problematic to thank both God and people? It's like complaining that someone thanked the farmers and store workers alongside the cook for a delicious meal they just ate. Is the cook's contribution devalued or her thanks lesser?

Quote from: Dreamer on January 30, 2023, 02:51:35 PMWhy is it problematic to thank both God and people? It's like complaining that someone thanked the farmers and store workers alongside the cook for a delicious meal they just ate. Is the cook's contribution devalued or her thanks lesser?

It devalues the years of study that medical professionals undertake, it devalues the brilliance of science and it's an insult to the millions of people who suffer with debilitating conditions when God is thanked by the lucky individuals who recover.

There is absolutely no evidence that a God has EVER intervened in anything let alone your recovery, so why thank God?
You might as well thank Napoleon or Ken Dodd.

Quote from: Dreamer on January 30, 2023, 02:49:01 PMGod relies on human hands and physical ways; otherwise there would be no order to the universe, and God would indeed be capricious and cruel.

I don't know what it is that you just said.  In your view, god created humans (hands and all) and defined what 'physical ways' are.  according to theists god is perfect and incapable of imperfection; so all that is has to be to his liking and intent.   

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 30, 2023, 12:20:19 PMDoes God have "free will"?

Is God omniscient?

Quote from: ManUfan on January 30, 2023, 03:17:29 PMIt devalues the years of study that medical professionals undertake, it devalues the brilliance of science and it's an insult to the millions of people who suffer with debilitating conditions when God is thanked by the lucky individuals who recover.

There is absolutely no evidence that a God has EVER intervened in anything let alone your recovery, so why thank God?
You might as well thank Napoleon or Ken Dodd.

Or even Bugs Bunny or Pecos Bill! 

Quote from: Dreamer on January 30, 2023, 02:49:01 PMGod relies on human hands and physical ways

That just sounds like human activity with god imagined on top of it.

Quote from: Hydra009 on February 02, 2023, 12:01:18 PMThat just sounds like human activity with god imagined on top of it.

It also seems a bit contrary to the idea of free will, if God is using us like puppets.

QuoteIt devalues the years of study that medical professionals undertake, it devalues the brilliance of science and it's an insult to the millions of people who suffer with debilitating conditions when God is thanked by the lucky individuals who recover.
 

I don't see where you are coming from; all the years of study in the world and a bad set of luck can turn a run-of-the-mill surgery into a death. God, luck, whatever - it's a factor as well, and if someone wants to stay in it's good side I don't see any reason not to thank it.

Already paying the doctor enough, he doesn't need to be thanked - at least not in a privatized medicine country.

Quote from: Hydra009 on February 02, 2023, 12:01:18 PMThat just sounds like human activity with god imagined on top of it.

God gives us choice. We have parameters, laws of the world, that we are subjected to. But, God still communicates with us, and as we draw nearer and create space to listen and meld our faith into works, we're better able to be God's feet and hands.

In the Bible, God uses dreams often to communicate. Some required interpretations while others were forthright with instructions. But, no one had to act on it.

In Sunday School, we were talking about Joseph having so many dreams (telling him that Mary was carrying the Messiah, that Herod was on his way to kill Jesus so go to Egypt, and later that Herod was dead so they could return).

One of the kids frowned and said how he wouldn't listen because God's can't make him do stuff. I said that's true, and we wondered together what could have happened if Joseph hadn't believed or listened. God has information that can help and protect us, but we must first be reachable and then be willing to act on it.

Quote from: Blackleaf on February 02, 2023, 12:11:03 PMIt also seems a bit contrary to the idea of free will, if God is using us like puppets.

Giving information or making requests is not using someone like a puppet. We can choose to act on it or not.

Most people don't even bother to listen...