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Started by Dreamer, January 19, 2023, 11:20:41 PM

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Blackleaf

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 23, 2023, 08:50:49 AMAsking a question of 'why' is an insult?
Quote from: Mike Cl on January 21, 2023, 11:05:14 PMWhat leads you to believe (since you don't seem to like thinking--I do understand that tho, thinking is such a waste of time and effort) Jesus (of the bible) is not a fiction?
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Mr.Obvious

Quote from: Dreamer on January 21, 2023, 08:33:05 PMI'm okay with mysteries. I walk in faith, guided by that Light in all of us.

I think all deeper truths point to the same thing--and the Christian God is the same as Allah, as Brahman, certainly Yahweh... The distinction is in the eye of the beholder, in our varied histories, languages, viewpoints....


Specifically, the story of Jesus is powerful and inspiring. He was a rebel. Going against the authorities--not just the spiritual and religious but also the social and government entities of the day. And not just teaching peace but even healing a man who came to take him away to death, when that man was injured by one of Jesus' friends.

It's not something that I sat down and considered in a critical manner. It's not the same as considering whether recycling is truly beneficial, weighing evidence and conflicting information (I recycle aluminum cans, but not paper. But I think that's getting off-topic...)

I'm more concerned with how I ought to live my life and govern myself.



Well, if it works for you, i guess.
You do you, then. Thanks for the answer.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Dreamer

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 23, 2023, 11:34:25 AMIt would be nice if you would offer a shred of data or proof to prove what you assert.


I already shared that I walk in faith. God isn't a simple matter of true or false. I have direct experience of God, and I see evidence of Her Creation everywhere. We're echoes of the divine, the Light unable to be extinguished.

I'm happy to share about those experiences, but I've already clearly shared my bias here--and what if it was just an acid flashback, anyway?

Anyone can have direct experience of God.

If I see a beautiful rainbow in the sky, it would be pretty silly for someone to tell me it didn't happen simply because they weren't paying attention.
<br /><br />Individually, we are one drop.  Together, we are an ocean.<br /><br />

the_antithesis

David Attenborough:When people want to give God the credit, they nearly always take the example of butterflies or humming-birds or orchids or something lovely. But I think of a little boy sitting on the bank of a river in West Africa with a worm that is boring through his eyeball and which would certainly turn him blind within a few years.

I think the challenge for the theist is to see echos of the divine in that worm. If you can't, then you don't see god anywhere at all.

Mike Cl

Quote from: Dreamer on January 24, 2023, 08:57:58 AMI already shared that I walk in faith. God isn't a simple matter of true or false. I have direct experience of God, and I see evidence of Her Creation everywhere. We're echoes of the divine, the Light unable to be extinguished.

I'm happy to share about those experiences, but I've already clearly shared my bias here--and what if it was just an acid flashback, anyway?

Anyone can have direct experience of God.

If I see a beautiful rainbow in the sky, it would be pretty silly for someone to tell me it didn't happen simply because they weren't paying attention.
God has nothing to do with a rainbow or at least it is easy to explain it for what it is--light reflecting through rain.  God is not needed to explain any happening of this world.  I have not come across any theist that can give me any proof or data that god is needed or exists.  and that includes those people in a small community church of which I was a member for a decade or so; if you can imagine, I was even on the board for 3 years and as president for a year.  I very much liked the people, which underscores one of the good things of many of this land's churches; social interactions.  After much study and 'soul' searching, the falseness of the bible (yes, I have read it cover to cover) and the set of beliefs of the christian religion, I simply could not go back.

It was suggested to me that I needed to focus on my 'beliefs' and 'faith' in god.  In other words, nobody could supply data or proof of god's existence--I needed to believe and if I was really good at it, turn to faith (blind belief with no need for facts or data).  I could not suspend my 'thinking', or critical, rational thoughts.  So, I see faith and belief as simply a way for a theist to have no need to 'think' or 'reason'.  So, when I suggest you don't use thinking or rational thought, this is what I mean.  I don't see that as an insult but an observation.  So, you as a theist I see not using or wanting to use reason and thinking, but relying on belief and faith to feed you, not reason and data.  That's your choice, but don't expect me to want to support that point of view. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Blackleaf

Quote from: the_antithesis on January 24, 2023, 09:35:51 AMDavid Attenborough:When people want to give God the credit, they nearly always take the example of butterflies or humming-birds or orchids or something lovely. But I think of a little boy sitting on the bank of a river in West Africa with a worm that is boring through his eyeball and which would certainly turn him blind within a few years.

I think the challenge for the theist is to see echos of the divine in that worm. If you can't, then you don't see god anywhere at all.

Nature is only beautiful from a distance. Look too closely, and you see it as the bloodbath, cruel struggle for survival that it is. Unless I'm mistaken, most living things die by being eaten alive. Animals at the bottom of the food chain have so many babies because most of them won't make it to adulthood. Some diseases and parasites only seem to exist to cause suffering. Even the human brain, arguably nature's greatest accomplishment, is so fragile, so many things can go wrong for no apparent reason. PTSD and depression seem like pretty huge design flaws.

Brain: "Oh. It appears you've been through a traumatic experience. I know what will help with that! Flashbacks! Constant anxiety! Emotional triggers! Lack of energy! Suicidal thoughts!"
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Dreamer

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 23, 2023, 11:42:16 AMWhat, for you, is 'free will'?

First, thanks for the question that is so easy to answer...

I'm a fan of indeterminate free will, philosophers like Kane. He describes it much better than I could, but it's something like you have options within a framework that both limits (and sometimes expands) those options.

This is another example of a question that can't be answered simply by evaluating the evidence; it is experiential as well. And yet thinkers across many subjects have written thousands of articles and books exploring the idea of free will, with largely what can be considered facts rather than personal experience.
<br /><br />Individually, we are one drop.  Together, we are an ocean.<br /><br />

Blackleaf

Quote from: Dreamer on January 24, 2023, 01:41:07 PMFirst, thanks for the question that is so easy to answer...

I'm a fan of indeterminate free will, philosophers like Kane. He describes it much better than I could, but it's something like you have options within a framework that both limits (and sometimes expands) those options.

This is another example of a question that can't be answered simply by evaluating the evidence; it is experiential as well. And yet thinkers across many subjects have written thousands of articles and books exploring the idea of free will, with largely what can be considered facts rather than personal experience.

There are several psychological studies which bring the idea of free will into question. Tests which predict choices made seconds before the subjects consciously made their choices. Identical twins, separated at birth, living very similar lives, right down to the names of their wives. I think it's a mistake to think we're in the driver's seat, when the seat itself is in question.

People with their corpus collosum (the tissue connecting the left and right halves of the brain) surgically separated end up with two competing personalities. Each half is capable of certain functions the other is not, and the lack of communication causes some weird stuff to happen. Limit information to one side of the brain, giving it instructions the other is unaware of, and then asking the other half why they did what they did, they'll come up with an explanation out of thin air. Totally confident in their answer, but completely wrong. Each half may have different preferences. Different favorite colors, different life goals. So what happened? Did their soul split in half? I don't think so. Some take this as evidence there are two minds in the brain, with one (the nonverbal side) taking a backseat and just cooperating with the other mind, and basically forgetting it even exists until it is separated from the other. I think it's more that the mind is a whole multitude of different, modular pieces, all cooperating and yet fighting for control. And all those parts have simply fooled themselves into thinking they're one.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Unbeliever

Well, Blackleaf, I'm of two minds about that...
🤔🧐
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

the_antithesis

Quote from: Blackleaf on January 24, 2023, 12:11:29 PMNature is only beautiful from a distance. Look too closely, and you see it as the bloodbath, cruel struggle for survival that it is.


Unbeliever

I really enjoyed his movie, "The Enigma of Kasper Hauser." Made me want to learn to speak German just so I could watch it without the subtitles. But of course, I didn't. Too lazy.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Mike Cl

Quote from: the_antithesis on January 24, 2023, 11:49:07 PM

Nature IS a bloodbath!  I can't tell you how many times I've been told to turn to nature if I wanted to see proof of god!  If Nature is proof of a loving god, then I want nothing to do with that god's love!!!  I see Nature as proof that there is no god.  All animals (and some plants) must kill to live--they (including us) have to kill, there is no other choice except starvation.  No choice!! There is no reason god could not have constructed it so that all the energy any life form needed to survive would have been to create an all solar powered form of energy gathering. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Blackleaf

Humans spent many years trying to get away from nature for a reason. lol

Nature still wins, of course. If a hurricane blows through, our comfy houses won't keep it out. And one day, the cost of our comfortable lives will come due.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Dreamer

Quote from: aitm on January 23, 2023, 09:39:18 AMNothing says love like demanding children's head be bashed against the rocks and telling the hebes they can take the young women and rape them at will. Sure is odd how xians view love.

God in infallible. The Bible is not infallible, for a variety of reasons, mostly having to do with the manner the books were written, translation processes, various councils and decrees that allowed certain books over others to be accepted and often imposed steep ramifications for anyone harboring these suddenly illegal texts. That is, humans have used and abused the Bible since the moment it was recorded (first orally and later written, though we are told that in the beginning there was the Word.)

Neither do I believe that the Bible is a history or science book. It is full of parables and stories that are supposed to make us ponder. We are revealed truths about ourselves and likewise truths about God, the world both as it is now and as it has been. There are some rules given, as well.

Taken as such a parable, we can consider the Hebrews and the Amalekites (the verses about killing children and babies) in terms of the story of the Bible.

The Story of the Bible, summary by me:
God creates the world, with humans in his image, with free will. We're curious scamps who get into trouble, do the wrong things, and we generally act horribly towards each other.

At first, God tries to work with a particular group of humans, the Hebrews, to bring eternal peace and prosperity to all. God gives rules and stories to attempt to curb our sinning. Christ enters the world a baby, born to a Hebrew virgin. Christ teaches that we are to love God and love our neighbor as ourselves. God now works with anyone willing to follow those commands, continuing to work towards bringing peace on Earth.

So, the Amelekites were both related to the Hebrews AND hated them completely, attacking them a number of times. They attacked as the Hebrews were fleeing Egypt, just after the Red Sea closed when the Hebrews finished crossing.

Generally when an army attacked, they would take the spoils of war. Livestock, people, goods. But the Hebrews were instructed to destroy all of it. The Amelekites are clearly evil, intent on the Hebrews' destruction. The Hebrews take the best stuff (and people) for themselves. God is angry they didn't listen, and the King says he did listen--but they took the best to give to God. God points out that obedience to God is much better than sacrifices. That theme is explored in this story, that of obedience to God, of the need to fully eradicate sin.

That's my interpretation, and there are bound to be many other legitimate lenses.


As to the rape verse, what are your referring to? I used to be horrified that God commanded that a rapist must offer to marry the woman he's violated. Yet in that time, such a poor soul could have faced a very difficult life--she could be killed, prevented from ever marrying, ostracized, etc. In these sinful dealings, the merciful thing was God commanding the rapist to offer that woman protection and social standing, both things that without such an order, the woman would have suffered greatly.
<br /><br />Individually, we are one drop.  Together, we are an ocean.<br /><br />

Dreamer

Quote from: the_antithesis on January 24, 2023, 09:35:51 AMDavid Attenborough:When people want to give God the credit, they nearly always take the example of butterflies or humming-birds or orchids or something lovely. But I think of a little boy sitting on the bank of a river in West Africa with a worm that is boring through his eyeball and which would certainly turn him blind within a few years.

I think the challenge for the theist is to see echos of the divine in that worm. If you can't, then you don't see god anywhere at all.

Of course we look to lovely things.

While God created the world, we have been imbued with agency. Likewise, systems for the world were created. And then there was sin, getting things wrong; 'The Fall.'

I see God in this; in you and me, in our responses to this creature capable of causing such pain.
<br /><br />Individually, we are one drop.  Together, we are an ocean.<br /><br />