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Civil War or not.

Started by Mike Cl, January 29, 2022, 11:47:45 AM

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Mike Cl

Have the first shots been fired in our second Civil War?
https://www.yahoo.com/news/first-shots-fired-second-civil-030013996.html

this short article echoes my concerns with this country going forward.  It seems to me that this is what we have been headed for since Regan.  We are just about ready to enter into the banana republic stage for this country.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Cassia

It seems a very large number of formerly conservative and liberal Americans have gone extreme. The right gives no credence to experts, scientists or institutions and the left coddle "feelings" over anything including free speech and other traditional liberal values and have no unified strategy. There is real hatred and international bad actors like Russia and China are moving to take advantage.

There is no Mason-Dixon line this time. I doubt any of my adult acquaintances save a few could run 200 yards without passing out...so I don't know what an internal war would even look like. However, if significant military forces decided to support an insurrection, then yep, we are done.




Gawdzilla Sama

I've heard 'civil war!' for six decades, still no war.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

GSOgymrat

I don't like expanding the definition of "war" to things that are not actual wars, e.g. The war on drugs. It is hyperbolic oversimplifies complex situations. I believe framing the current social and political climate in the US as a "war" increases polarization because in a war the people involved feel compelled to take sides. Calling something a war escalates people's anxiety. The US going to war with Russia would be a war but there are better ways to discuss the current social and political problems in the US.

Gawdzilla Sama

We could do away with "war" completely and just do "conflict".
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Mike Cl

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on January 29, 2022, 01:27:30 PM
I've heard 'civil war!' for six decades, still no war.
And I hope it stays that way.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

I guess 'war' is the wrong word.  Although, I would not be surprised if firearms were used in many, many places.  Our civil war was messy--this will be even  messier and less easy to figure out what is going on.  It seems 2024 will be a huge test--can we continue to vote in our leaders and have the transition go easily.  I suspect not.  We are more and more slipping into a fascist and authoritarian govt; the constitution is becoming less and less important and it will fall by the wayside.  Yeah, I see a bleak future for this country.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

GSOgymrat

This is an interesting article using political polarization in Oregon as an example of a broader split across the US. There is a movement for the rural, conservative eastern area of Oregon to become part of Idaho, leaving the urban, progressive part to remain Oregon.

MODERN AMERICA’S MOST SUCCESSFUL SECESSIONIST MOVEMENT

... Joining Idaho would keep rural Oregon the way America used to be, McCarter explained. In his narrative, Salem is the villain forcing eastern Oregon counties to comply with laws that seem irrelevant or offensive to their rural setting, rules that have no bearing on their lived reality. Recent redistricting only compounded the sense that representation would never skew in their favor; McCarter feels his supporters’ voices are drowned out by urban onesâ€"the culture over the hill, across the Cascades. Portland is in the midst of its most violent year ever, including more than 1,000 shootings so far. Struggling economically and anticipating the full collapse of industries that used to sustain them, McCarter and his group clamor for popular sovereignty.

Move Oregon’s Border’s true purpose is threefold, McCarter told me: First, obviously, to move the border. Second, to send a message to the state legislature “that you’ve got some very unhappy people, and here are the reasons why.” But the third is more subtle: “It provides a vent for all this anger.” McCarter sees himself as a peaceful guy proximate to violent movements. When he retired from working in plant nurseries and started running a gun club, members of the Oath Keepers, the Three Percenters, and the Project Appleseed prepper group practiced at his shooting range. People’s Rights, the anti-government activist Ammon Bundy’s new far-right network, has asked him to speak at its events. “I know there’s some people that have talked about ‘If this continues on, people are going to pick up their guns,’” McCarter said. “Rural peopleâ€"their values, the way they live, their faith, their freedomâ€"are closely tied to what Idaho is, so why not adjust the border? Just let us go peacefully.” ...

Joining Idaho is a “mind-bogglingly oversimplified” notion, Steve Grasty, a retired Harney County judge, told me. Counties such as Harney are hugely dependent on federal funding; Oregon’s second congressional district, which covers the entire eastern swath of the state, was the nation’s biggest recipient of Affordable Care Act funds. But even Grasty, who used to travel to Salem to advocate for the county, admitted that the legislature there didn’t seem interested in the stories and problems he brought from rural Oregon. “Over and over, I worked to put that rural perspective into focus, and it really didn’t get heard.” He could have changed parties, but stayed a Democrat just so people on the west side of the state would talk to him, he told me.

The border move might seem preposterous: a peaceful rebellion fantasized about by a handful of people sitting around a sporting-goods store eating cookies and practicing amateur cartography. But some are bluntly resigned to another conclusionâ€"one of my last stops in Harney County was a visit to Ben Holloway, the owner of Spent Cartridge, the local gun shop. He thinks the border question “will probably boil more down to a revolution rather than even worrying about moving this and that,” he told me. “It would just be right out to war, a civil war or splitting her up.” He went on, “And that’s the rise and fall of every civilization in history. The United States has been at the top for a long time. We’re where Rome was when Rome was at its peak, and eventually everything comes crumbling down. It will be pretty much just like the Civil War back when, North versus South. It might be more East versus West, urban versus rural. It will be absolutely horrible and terrifying and frightening. A lot of people dying for no reason. But eventually they’re going to push a group far enough that they have no other recourse, in their mind.”

I asked Holloway how it would feel if the border move somehow shook outâ€"if at the end of a prolonged political process, he and I could factually say we were standing in Idaho, not Oregon, that afternoon.

“I don’t think it would hardly change a thing, to be honest with you,” he said.

Hydra009

Quote from: GSOgymrat on January 29, 2022, 08:27:38 PM
This is an interesting article using political polarization in Oregon as an example of a broader split across the US. There is a movement for the rural, conservative eastern area of Oregon to become part of Idaho, leaving the urban, progressive part to remain Oregon.
Let's say that hypothetically, the rural part of Oregon became its own country.  Wouldn't it almost immediately fall on hard times and suffer a mass exodus?  Cause it seems like those sorts of areas need federal assistance more often than not, and rely heavily on urban areas for literally everything that isn't food.

Mike Cl

This is how I envision the next (or continuing) civil 'war'.

'Fringe ideas' are going mainstream in US politics. That's a danger to democracy, extremism experts say.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/fringe-ideas-going-mainstream-us-050101780.html

Many of these movements have been around for decades, but are gaining more and more traction these days.  And they are everywhere and at all levels of politics.  It will not be a war 'war' that kills all democratic institutions and laws; it will give way to extremists--who will become seemly less extreme as more and more back them.  Plus I do expect  to see shooting to become more and more common.  I hate to say it, but I expect my children to live to see the end of democratic/republic institutions and the beginning of an authoritarian govt and mostly fascist.   trump did not invent this or cause this--but he did help open the flood gates.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Gawdzilla Sama

The Bundy fiasco is the best indicator of the likelihood of an armed insurrection. As the saying goes "My oath to defend the Constitution from all enemy, foreign or domestic, does not have an expiration date." My hillbilly cousins like to brag about their "arsenals", so much that SPLC and I have had chats.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers