Quote from: Mike Cl on November 28, 2021, 06:39:59 PM
What 'atheist churches'????  And what are 'morals'??

Google and a dictionary will help you define those.

Regards
DL

Quote from: Hydra009 on November 28, 2021, 08:47:42 PM
I was referring to the metaphorical moral high ground.

Do you believe in supernatural or metaphysical concepts?

The laws in heaven can never be the same as here.

You know why.

Regards
DL

Quote from: Mike Cl on November 28, 2021, 09:24:50 PM
Okay, Greatest.  This is my stance.  There are no atheist churches and never have existed.  And there are no universal morals, never was and never will be.  And the only thing atheists have in common is none believe/think god exists; at least they share the idea that there is not evidence, then or now, that demonstrates that any god or gods are real.

Remain ignorant, or not.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=atheist+church&sxsrf=AOaemvIqmF_gNs9Y_lgcfmUr5BMQ3CMsWA%3A1638234513570&source=hp&ei=kXmlYc2SIO6ejLsP5qmMyA0&iflsig=ALs-wAMAAAAAYaWHofopPZHTPIqwVIOEkSJ8qDxc5_E0&ved=0ahUKEwiNn_OR8770AhVuD2MBHeYUA9kQ4dUDCAk&uact=5&oq=atheist+church&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIICAAQgAQQyQMyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEOgoILhDHARDRAxAnOgQIABBDOgQILhBDOhEILhCABBCxAxCDARDHARDRAzoLCAAQgAQQsQMQgwE6DgguEIAEELEDEMcBENEDOhEILhCABBCxAxCDARDHARCjAjoOCC4QgAQQsQMQxwEQowI6BwgAELEDEEM6CAgAEIAEELEDOgwIABCxAxBDEEYQ-QE6CwguEIAEELEDEIMBOgsILhCABBDHARCvAVAAWL0bYLUqaABwAHgAgAG8AogB6g-SAQc1LjYuMi4xmAEAoAEB&sclient=gws-wiz

The intelligent non-believers, or those seeking better morals, will know the importance of atheist churches.

If your atheist friends can't tell you, ask a Gnostic Christian or other intelligent person.

I like survival of the fittest as our human one, if we can call our programming a moral code, which we can and thus can say that in normal humans, there is a universal moral code.

It is based on selfishness.

Let me posit that now as a universal moral code.

If you disagree, find a species that is alive after trying the survival of the least fit.

Regards
DL

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 29, 2021, 06:42:06 PM
I can tell someone why their godbuddy ain't real without mentioning atheism. Lots of religions say other people's gods aren't real.

Mention it or not, you are likely branded an atheist or heathen etc.

I try to ignore the useless god debates and try to get morals discussed.

At least in those, if a religious actually steps up, can have an end game.

It happens a lot easier in real life than on the net of lies that bring out our bullish sides.

Regards
DL

Is Believing In God Evolutionarily Advantageous?
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129528196

I think believing in bullshit is natural to our species. We have to evolve our way out of it. That could take thousands of years and cost millions of lives, but it will eventually happen.

Quote from: Greatest I am on November 29, 2021, 08:07:22 PMDo you believe in supernatural or metaphysical concepts?

Nope.

Quote from: Greatest I am on November 29, 2021, 08:24:47 PMMention it or not, you are likely branded an atheist or heathen etc.

I try to ignore the useless god debates and try to get morals discussed.

Ok.  Let's discuss morality.

My morality is essentially secular humanism with dash of Epicurean hedonism.

Essentially, I want to maximize human wellbeing and I try to act in a way so as to not inflict harm and also to engender human flourishing.  So I'm going to be against say, bombing a country 20 years fruitlessly, torturing people, gay conversion therapy, etc and I'm going to be in favor of science education and research, protecting natural habitats (among the many reasons to do so, so humans can enjoy them), wiping out malaria, etc.

Theists generally come at this from a totally different angle, but the good ones generally also espouse some sort of humanistic ethical framework.  So we're not totally opposed.  In fact, I'd bet that most if not all of these positions would be popular among the faithful as well as atheists, albeit for different reasons.

So riddle me this, where and why does this supposed moral high ground (implying a moral low ground) come into play?

Quote from: Greatest I am on November 29, 2021, 08:24:47 PM
Mention it or not, you are likely branded an atheist or heathen etc.

Ed Zachery! The heathens of the Southern US and the heathens of southern California, no difference to the fanatic believer.

Quote from: Cassia on November 29, 2021, 09:21:55 PM
Is Believing In God Evolutionarily Advantageous?
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129528196

I think believing in bullshit is natural to our species. We have to evolve our way out of it. That could take thousands of years and cost millions of lives, but it will eventually happen.

I agree that when a person becomes an adult, he will put away the things of children, like the supernatural.

Regards
DL

Quote from: Hydra009 on November 29, 2021, 10:45:50 PM
Ok.  Let's discuss morality.

My morality is essentially secular humanism with dash of Epicurean hedonism.

Essentially, I want to maximize human wellbeing and I try to act in a way so as to not inflict harm and also to engender human flourishing.  So I'm going to be against say, bombing a country 20 years fruitlessly, torturing people, gay conversion therapy, etc and I'm going to be in favor of science education and research, protecting natural habitats (among the many reasons to do so, so humans can enjoy them), wiping out malaria, etc.

Theists generally come at this from a totally different angle, but the good ones generally also espouse some sort of humanistic ethical framework.  So we're not totally opposed.  In fact, I'd bet that most if not all of these positions would be popular among the faithful as well as atheists, albeit for different reasons.

So riddle me this, where and why does this supposed moral high ground (implying a moral low ground) come into play?

Many places, like your own post, that shows the better atheist morality as compared to homophobes an misogynous religious people.

That would include atheist churches and their better morals.

Regards
DL

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 30, 2021, 06:28:10 AM
Ed Zachery! The heathens of the Southern US and the heathens of southern California, no difference to the fanatic believer.

Not familiar, sorry.

Regards
DL

Quote from: Greatest I am on November 29, 2021, 08:18:41 PM
Remain ignorant, or not.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=atheist+church&sxsrf=AOaemvIqmF_gNs9Y_lgcfmUr5BMQ3CMsWA%3A1638234513570&source=hp&ei=kXmlYc2SIO6ejLsP5qmMyA0&iflsig=ALs-wAMAAAAAYaWHofopPZHTPIqwVIOEkSJ8qDxc5_E0&ved=0ahUKEwiNn_OR8770AhVuD2MBHeYUA9kQ4dUDCAk&uact=5&oq=atheist+church&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIICAAQgAQQyQMyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEOgoILhDHARDRAxAnOgQIABBDOgQILhBDOhEILhCABBCxAxCDARDHARDRAzoLCAAQgAQQsQMQgwE6DgguEIAEELEDEMcBENEDOhEILhCABBCxAxCDARDHARCjAjoOCC4QgAQQsQMQxwEQowI6BwgAELEDEEM6CAgAEIAEELEDOgwIABCxAxBDEEYQ-QE6CwguEIAEELEDEIMBOgsILhCABBDHARCvAVAAWL0bYLUqaABwAHgAgAG8AogB6g-SAQc1LjYuMi4xmAEAoAEB&sclient=gws-wiz

The intelligent non-believers, or those seeking better morals, will know the importance of atheist churches.

If your atheist friends can't tell you, ask a Gnostic Christian or other intelligent person.

I like survival of the fittest as our human one, if we can call our programming a moral code, which we can and thus can say that in normal humans, there is a universal moral code.

It is based on selfishness.

Let me posit that now as a universal moral code.

If you disagree, find a species that is alive after trying the survival of the least fit.

Regards
DL

I don't have a 'moral' code , but a personal code of conduct.  My personal motto is something like this; treat others as you want to be treated and first, do no harm.  Try to make oneself better and make the world a better place.  (Of course, 'better' can be in the eyes of the beholder.)  Morals and ethics are good to talk about, but they derive from the society as a whole.  Morals and ethics change according to the culture one is referring to.  I have yet to find a universal 'moral' that is found in every civilization/culture. 

Survival of the fittest does not equate to survival of the strongest.  It means those that use the means at hand to survive and thrive will do best.  It has to do with being adaptable. 

Selfishness is an interesting topic.  If looked at in a certain way, everything we do is selfish.  Even when someone is being selfless, one could say they are acting that way because it makes them feel good, which can be said to be selfish.  I think we all try to do those things that are beneficial to us and I strive to do things that benefit others, as well.  This is a topic that can nuanced to death; but I do think selfishness is a driving force in all of use to one extent or another.  It falls in line with the idea that in order to love others, one must love oneself first. 

BTW, I do not consider Gnostic Christians as being either particularly intelligent nor moral or ethical. 

As far as being ignorant about the existence of atheist churches, I was.  But not now.  I am ignorant about all kinds of things.  Only one way to fix that and that is to learn.  This board is good for that--learning.  But I still don't like the idea much. 

Quote from: Mike Cl on November 30, 2021, 10:47:57 AM
I don't have a 'moral' code , but a personal code of conduct.  My personal motto is something like this; treat others as you want to be treated and first, do no harm.  Try to make oneself better and make the world a better place.  (Of course, 'better' can be in the eyes of the beholder.)  Morals and ethics are good to talk about, but they derive from the society as a whole.  Morals and ethics change according to the culture one is referring to.  I have yet to find a universal 'moral' that is found in every civilization/culture. 

Survival of the fittest does not equate to survival of the strongest.  It means those that use the means at hand to survive and thrive will do best.  It has to do with being adaptable. 

Selfishness is an interesting topic.  If looked at in a certain way, everything we do is selfish.  Even when someone is being selfless, one could say they are acting that way because it makes them feel good, which can be said to be selfish.  I think we all try to do those things that are beneficial to us and I strive to do things that benefit others, as well.  This is a topic that can nuanced to death; but I do think selfishness is a driving force in all of use to one extent or another.  It falls in line with the idea that in order to love others, one must love oneself first. 

BTW, I do not consider Gnostic Christians as being either particularly intelligent nor moral or ethical. 

As far as being ignorant about the existence of atheist churches, I was.  But not now.  I am ignorant about all kinds of things.  Only one way to fix that and that is to learn.  This board is good for that--learning.  But I still don't like the idea much. 

A moral code, is the same as a personal code of conduct. IMO.

As to the morality of Gnostic Christians as compared to Christians, do you find Christian homophobes and misogynous to be more moral than those Gnostic Christians who do not discriminate against women and gays without a just cause?

Regards
DL

Quote from: Cassia on November 29, 2021, 09:21:55 PM
Is Believing In God Evolutionarily Advantageous?
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129528196

I think believing in bullshit is natural to our species. We have to evolve our way out of it. That could take thousands of years and cost millions of lives, but it will eventually happen.

In my experience and observation, bullshit is inherent to the human species, to say nothing of superstition and stupidity.

Challenges to these things are inherent also, though, and inevitable. 

What would be the source of genuine progress and clarity in any serious area of life or society without the product of conflict between these two?     

Only in open conflict with the wrong may the right be properly justified, to borrow from Milton.

 

Quote from: Docillinois on November 30, 2021, 03:36:56 PM
In my experience and observation, bullshit is inherent to the human species, to say nothing of superstition and stupidity.

Challenges to these things are inherent also, though, and inevitable. 

What would be the source of genuine progress and clarity in any serious area of life or society without the product of conflict between these two?     

Only in open conflict with the wrong may the right be properly justified, to borrow from Milton.

 

How do we light a fire under slow go atheists, --- and the intelligentsia,--- and end the tyranny and farce of the vile god religions?

Hiding un-belief is over in most free countries.

It is time for atheists to show their better moral worth and go into mental inquisition mode against those who are slowing social progress. The religious and political right wing.

Regards
DL