Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?

Started by Jagella, October 07, 2021, 08:29:19 PM

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Jagella

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 08, 2021, 05:05:31 PM
So, you went down to their level. And gave them the excuse to toss you out. Good moves, Gen. Custer.

Actually, I was never told why I was banned. The last time they banned me, I just asked them to change the rules to allow unbelievers greater freedom in that forum. CARM labels the members in their forum and bases what they are allowed to do on those labels. I think Matt Slick got that idea from the Germans.

So why are you in favor of censorship? Do you find free speech objectionable?

Cassia

Christians don't do well here if they pretend to be atheists....I would welcome a truthful xtian for real discussions but they are in very short supply I guess.

aitm

Like any forum, entering with the intention of flame throwing, one gets tossed pretty quickly. We have tolerated many….many religious of several varieties many times for way too long. Some times to the point where our regulars start bitching. But for the most part, I think we have given many far more opportunity than we should have…..but I am okay with that.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Jagella

Quote from: Cassia on October 08, 2021, 07:42:07 PM
Christians don't do well here if they pretend to be atheists....I would welcome a truthful xtian for real discussions but they are in very short supply I guess.

If I had my own religious-discussion forum, then the main group of people I'd want there would be fire-breathing Jerry-Falwell types of Christians. Unlike the cowardly Christians who use their nasty little mouse-clicks to remove people from their forums whom they know can easily argue why Christian beliefs are bogus, I've got the balls to debate any Christian on any topic that relates to their religion. Unlike they, I won't run and hide.

Jagella

Quote from: aitm on October 08, 2021, 07:48:52 PM
Like any forum, entering with the intention of flame throwing, one gets tossed pretty quickly. We have tolerated many….many religious of several varieties many times for way too long. Some times to the point where our regulars start bitching. But for the most part, I think we have given many far more opportunity than we should have…..but I am okay with that.

I say bring them on! The best thing we can have here is a lot of Christians who should be told the truth.

SGOS

Quote from: Jagella on October 08, 2021, 09:30:13 PM
I say bring them on! The best thing we can have here is a lot of Christians who should be told the truth.
I think it gets old in a hurry. 

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: Jagella on October 08, 2021, 05:44:57 PM
Actually, I was never told why I was banned. The last time they banned me, I just asked them to change the rules to allow unbelievers greater freedom in that forum. CARM labels the members in their forum and bases what they are allowed to do on those labels. I think Matt Slick got that idea from the Germans.

So why are you in favor of censorship? Do you find free speech objectionable?
My personal Rule of So: Whenever a response begins with "So..." it should be checked for a strawman argument.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: SGOS on October 09, 2021, 07:51:11 AM
I think it gets old in a hurry. 
Yep. I have hordes of hillbilly cousins who haven't changed their minds about anything since they were housebroken.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Mermaid

Quote from: Jagella on October 08, 2021, 04:21:49 PM
I was generally very respectful toward the other members there. I just have my limits as to how much rudeness I will take.
I think joining a group of people explicitly to argue and try to discredit their beliefs is fundamentally disrespectful. Did you join just to engage in argument and explain why you are right and they are wrong?
Or did you join to listen to them about their beliefs and ask questions?

Sorry, you don't get any sympathy from me, that's just not ok. You can do as you wish, but don't expect different results. That's just how the world is. I strongly recommend you choose your battles more wisely if this sort of thing has you feeling put out.
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

Hydra009

Quote from: Jagella on October 07, 2021, 08:29:19 PMI've been banned many times from Christian-sponsored forums due to my scathing critiques of Christianity in those forums. The Christians there complained bitterly about what I was saying although all of it was true and I think well-reasoned.

Is it wrong to criticize Christians regarding their beliefs? Generally I think not except in cases where the criticism constitutes harassment.
Generally speaking, I think one should be respectful of the forum regulars and not say things that you know will antagonize them.  Although, I have noticed an odd conflation of disagreement with disrespect - especially on religion boards - which is troubling.  Imho, a certain level of conversational intolerance (openly questioning questionable assertions) is warranted.

And while I have no problem with boards moderating themselves to remove disruptive or toxic behavior to keep the noise-to-signal ratio low, I've seen boards so sanitized and ideologically lockstep that it's downright creepy.

So I guess you could say my point is...*looks around for it*  *searches under the couch cushions*

Jagella

Quote from: Mermaid on October 09, 2021, 11:51:56 AM
I think joining a group of people explicitly to argue and try to discredit their beliefs is fundamentally disrespectful.

Would you say it's disrespectful to argue with the Ku Klux Klan or with Neo-Nazis? Would it be wrong to discredit their beliefs explaining that black people and Jews are not truly inferior? In my case I argued that people who are not Christians are not morally inferior to Christians and are basically good. In particular, I said that women are not inferior and that homosexuals are not bad people. Are you telling me I was wrong to do so?

Anyway, although my motive in joining the boards at CARM is irrelevant to my right to be there, allow me to say that my goal was to debate Christian apologetics there. Matt Slick, the founder of CARM, has said that he loves to debate atheists. "Bring them on," he has said on YouTube. I considered that an invitation.

QuoteDid you join just to engage in argument and explain why you are right and they are wrong?

Basically yes, but it was more than that. I wanted them to know that their beliefs can lead to people being hurt, and in particular I wanted them to know that their beliefs have resulted in my being hurt. I was physically, emotionally, and sexually abused by Christians who when doing so were obviously inspired by their beliefs to do so. It got so bad that at one point I attempted to take my own life.

QuoteOr did you join to listen to them about their beliefs and ask questions?

I did plenty of that although they dodged most of my questions. None of them showed any concern for any of the people I told them were hurt including me.

QuoteSorry, you don't get any sympathy from me, that's just not ok. You can do as you wish, but don't expect different results. That's just how the world is. I strongly recommend you choose your battles more wisely if this sort of thing has you feeling put out.

I don't want your sympathy. I want people to face the truth especially the truth of what they're doing to other people. Although I find your attitude toward this issue to be very depressing, I honestly can't completely disagree with it. We do indeed live in a world where some people to evil, and other people won't do anything about it. I understand that in Hitler's Germany most of the German people turned a blind eye to what was being done to the Jews there. They claimed they knew nothing about it even though the smoke from the death-camp ovens wafted into nearby towns. They didn't want to get involved. They didn't wish to rock the boat. They wanted to choose their battles wisely.

Mermaid

Oh for fucks' sake. You're comparing Christianity to Hitler? You feel the need to speak out against it to save the world from evil?

I loathe being proselytized to. Your joining that forum to tell people the error of their ways is absolutely no different. It's obnoxious and disrespectful. I am 58 and kind of over peoples' shit, so maybe that will help you put things into perspective.
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

PickelledEggs

You're a free person to say what you like. Doesn't mean they're going to take it well. Any time someone's world view is challenged, be prepared for blowback. Not just for religious people, because this is a human trait.

Wrong? No. Productive? Possibly not, but not impossible. As long as they aren't actually hurting anyone, why do you care?

I'm assuming you're new to atheism, hence the over-the-top hostility towards religion.  Not all religious people are like Hitler or the Westboro Baptist Church. In fact, most are not like them.

PickelledEggs

That said, if you came in here trying to sell us on religios views, we'd probably ban you instantly. Similarly, don't be surprised if you go to a religious community and get shit on for disrespecting their dynamic.

Jagella

Quote from: Mermaid on October 09, 2021, 07:50:39 PM
Oh for fucks' sake. You're comparing Christianity to Hitler? You feel the need to speak out against it to save the world from evil?

I loathe being proselytized to. Your joining that forum to tell people the error of their ways is absolutely no different. It's obnoxious and disrespectful. I am 58 and kind of over peoples' shit, so maybe that will help you put things into perspective.

Hmmm. I always saw forums for debate and exchanging ideas. But it looks like they're more of a coffee klatch for many people.

And I'd recommend you check out the Nazi-Christian connection because some Christian apologists are equating atheism and Nazism.