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AA as a Miracle Cure

Started by SGOS, November 25, 2019, 10:21:36 AM

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SGOS

The other thread on Lourdes sparked something in my mind that I have never articulated to myself before.  In AA's Big Book, Bill Wilson says, "You may be the type of alcoholic that can only be cured by a spiritual experience."  This is taken to mean by most members, who much of the time can be quite overzealous about AA, that you can never be happy in recovery without a spiritual experience, and indeed Bill Wilson makes enough noise about the necessary aspect of a Higher Power, and tells Agnostics, "Not to worry, you too can learn to believe."

OK, there's plenty of hogwash just like the above embedded into AA to discuss, but I felt it was necessary to mention these couple of bits to explain my latest somewhat unimportant insight, which alcoholics often refer to as a "moments of clarity:"  I never realized that AA is faith healing.  Yee Gods!  I attended meetings to get me over the hump 25 years ago, and yes I recognized that believing in a higher power was just a placebo, but never thought of or referred to AA as "faith healing."

There are other aspects to the program that would conceivably facilitate an alcoholic's recovery.  In my case, the supportive community where sobriety is celebrated, rather than bemoaned I found inspiring.  Some of the 12 steps make sense when removed from their silly dependence on calling on the higher power to complete.  I never formally did the steps, and I think they focused too much an Bill Wilson's personal issues, things he certainly needed to deal with that are not common to all alcoholics.  What I found most powerful was my own determination to never have another drink, no matter what bullshit passed through my head.

Now think about the courts sending DUI offenders to AA meetings, which they are not supposed to do since the Supreme Court ruled that AA is religious, but they still do anyway.  Would a competent judge send an alcoholic to a faith healer?  I doubt it.

Baruch

Some people, namely Big Pharma, think that medicine is all about handing out pills.  Some people in counseling think that "talk therapy" is all that is required.  Both are extreme positions.  The whole person is both psychological and physiological.  And there are no people, given the complexity of a human being, who can address all of that.

Of course current medical practice has many deficiencies.  And it is probably true, that religious counselors have no business being fully licensed (aka 12 step).  Fully qualified and competent medical personnel are rare and expensive, unless you only have a routine problem like a hangnail.  If you have multiple interacting syndromes, like my daughter, the medical community is both unclear as to what is wrong, they aren't even monetized to support it.  Insurance systems and medical education and inadequate general practitioners who have to rely entirely on blood and urine tests, and what the local drug rep is selling, is suboptimum.

Fact is, it doesn't take much to set up a shingle as a counselor, as it isn't a medical profession, it is more akin to chiropractery.  This is true, whether your counselor is a Christian or not.  This is why most mental health issues are not covered by insurance.

At one time my mother went to AA.  But she didn't keep it up.  And I don't know if it did any help.  Kind of like anecdotal evidence of faith healing.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

EmpJohnIV

I grew up going to AA meetings, because baby sitters cost money. First one I was a 6 day old little baby, and then once a week until I was 12. I really have the fondest memories of that particular group. Bunch of of cow pokes drinking coffee after dark telling stories from way back when. To this day I feel deeply comforted sitting around a table with coffee mugs discussing something.

As an adult I have had some buddies with serious drinking problems who reached out to AA, and in a few cases I have tagged along to meeting as an al-anon. Sadly the meting I went to didn't seem good, I didn't like it, something made my skin crawl which I cannot put to words. Didn't have the sense of community I grew up with. Moral of the story being that some groups are really doing great stuff and have a charm to 'em, and other groups are just people going through the motions.

That group I liked, grew up with, it had one fella who was more or less the leader. Good guy, left most of his guts on the jungle floor in Vietnam, also left any faith he could have ever had in religion lying next to them. He wasn't just an atheist in ascribing to a metaphysical doctrine, he was personally mad about the whole notion of religion. But, also had a big big drinking problem, and times being as they were AA (and its religious baggage) was the only game in his little town for help. Got to studying the Big Book and the steps and all these things, and he came across the thing about the higher power. You can imagine the guys emotional frustration at this, right? Well he decided that his 'higher power' was a door knob. A literal door knob. When he was struggling he would look at a door knob, and know that unless you turn that, you ain't going to the bar. People can make what they want out of a path.

Baruch

It takes an alcoholic to understand one.  It takes a drug addict to understand one etc.  This is why the best drug counselors are former alcoholics, former drug addicts etc.  In theory AA is a group encounter with people like that, but without the education.  Basically out-patient therapy.  For some folks, that minimal approach isn't enough, particularly if one has abused the harder stuff.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

EmpJohnIV

People are free to do what they going to do, and that often means spiting any attempt to figure them out, on purpose more than occasionally. That's why there ain't no miracle cure, at bare minimum an addict gotta be on board with getting clean, and as a general rule an addict loves their substance. Got a family member who is doing real bad on some hard addictions, and some nasty behavior.
Once in a while he comes over and gets a hot meal, or a ride to a court appearance. Beyond that unless he decides to make a change, it is what it is.

I've never been an addict, well not to a chemical anyway, so I only understand it dimly; but I understand well enough how much of a cuss I can be when someone tries to change me.

That's a big problem with AA, actually, not the group in and of it self, but the way they do the DWI court orders. I remember dudes showing up because a judge said so, vast vast majority of the times it was a waste, and it detracted from the meeting over all. I wish AA groups were more inclined to tell judges to keep in their own lane.

A group of people who ave done something difficult and still join together in fellowship, that's beauty. A philosophy that invokes a higher power, well it functions and people can make of it what they will, its not exactly a missionary program, besides it can be a good head space for a lot of people struggling with very serious past traumas. But compelling people to go, that's kinda weird to me.

Gawdzilla Sama

"You have to surrender to a higher power!"

"No, we don't mean 'god', we mean something you can recognize as having power over you."

"No, scotch doesn't count in this case."

We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Unbeliever

Quote from: SGOS on November 25, 2019, 10:21:36 AM
Now think about the courts sending DUI offenders to AA meetings, which they are not supposed to do since the Supreme Court ruled that AA is religious, but they still do anyway.  Would a competent judge send an alcoholic to a faith healer?  I doubt it.

Several years ago a judge made me go to about 3 dozen AA meetings. I went to 9 and told the judge there was just too much religion in it. He said "Oh, I didn't know that." Then he sent me to some sort of thing where I'd have to pay a bunch of money, of which I had none at all. So when I told the judge that he just put me on court probation. Now that I could do.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Baruch

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 25, 2019, 12:26:17 PM
"You have to surrender to a higher power!"

"No, we don't mean 'god', we mean something you can recognize as having power over you."

"No, scotch doesn't count in this case."

Addicts surrender to a higher power ... their addiction.  Even as a demi-god I consider G-d my superior.  Of course, if one's life is based on fighting your parents or other adults of your childhood ... one is a perpetual bad kid.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Unbeliever on November 25, 2019, 01:30:59 PM
Several years ago a judge made me go to about 3 dozen AA meetings. I went to 9 and told the judge there was just too much religion in it. He said "Oh, I didn't know that." Then he sent me to some sort of thing where I'd have to pay a bunch of money, of which I had none at all. So when I told the judge that he just put me on court probation. Now that I could do.

AA could only work with certain kinds of Christians.  Of course judges are idiots.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

aitm

a tremendous amount of churches establish "non-denominational" AA groups. The reality is they are just throwing smaller nets in the hope. Every saved soul is another fiver in the church box. Preacher needs his dough.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

SGOS

Quote from: aitm on November 26, 2019, 03:06:43 PM
a tremendous amount of churches establish "non-denominational" AA groups. The reality is they are just throwing smaller nets in the hope. Every saved soul is another fiver in the church box. Preacher needs his dough.
I suppose they pick up a few.  In my AA group I often heard people say they converted to AA from other religions.   I don't know any that returned to their original church.  But groups vary and there is lot of variance within groups.  Atheists are rare.  I attended meetings in several states.  I never met another atheist.  Nor anyone that claimed to be a former atheist, despite claims in stories and literature that this happens making it sound like many come to believe on a regular basis.

Mr.Obvious

Don't know how it is in America for sure.
But we once had an AA-speaker come over to work to explain his organisation. Before the talk I told my colleagues, 'watch it, they are a bit cult-y'. They didn't believe me.
Dude spent 45 minutes of his allotted half hour rambling on in a confused manner and expressing at least 100 times how they were not a cult.
My colleagues told me I was right, afterwards.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

SGOS

I saw a list of cult characteristics a long time ago.  AA fit them to a "T."  But then so does Christianity.  Same thing over there, I guess.  Cults don't call themselves cults.

Unbeliever

The only difference between a mainstream religion and a cult is the size of their voting block.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Mike Cl

I think ALL religions are cults.  The big ones like to look down upon and beat up on the smaller ones.  I also think Trump is a cult leader (or mob boss--not much difference there) which is why he can do anything and his base still backs him.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?