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why are you an atheist?

Started by randomvim, September 11, 2016, 03:14:56 AM

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Mike Cl

Quote from: randomvim on March 05, 2017, 12:43:50 PM
according to some on this thread, athiesm refers to both ideas of no god exist to not knowing if god exist. Is that how you use it?

what about natural human curiosity about the universe and spirit?

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What about it??
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

randomvim

Quote from: Mike Cl on March 05, 2017, 02:17:15 PM
What about it??
This curiosity has been a great drive to understanding our own existence and have lead many to a religious life.

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trdsf

Quote from: randomvim on March 05, 2017, 05:32:50 PM
This curiosity has been a great drive to understanding our own existence and have lead many to a religious life.
Curiosity has led many to making profound discoveries about the natural world that have nothing to do with religion, and in many cases have vastly reduced the area in which any putative god might act freely.  You can't infer anything from curiosity beyond the idea that curiosity provided a survival advantage at some point in our past.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Mike Cl

Quote from: randomvim on March 05, 2017, 05:32:50 PM
This curiosity has been a great drive to understanding our own existence and have lead many to a religious life.

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And????
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

aitm

Quote from: randomvim on March 05, 2017, 12:43:50 PM

what about natural human curiosity about the universe and spirit?


This is an interesting question, when presented to a human 3500 years ago. First, there was no concept of a "universe", at least not as we could conceive it. Everything we knew and could possibly comprehend ended at the clouds. We could not understand that the limit of the cloud was the beginning of a universe so vast that the greatest of human minds would spend decades to try to comprehend it . This is why we thought....2000 years ago that since water fell from the sky that the sky was actually.....water...as the babble proclaims.

And "spirit"...why long before we invented "gods" we thought everything had a spirit, a bond, a more than casual interconnection to everything in life. As such we painted walls in caves depicting our interaction with our fellow animals 33,000 years before we even invented a god. We carved totems to animals 8,000 years before we first murmured the concept that a giant sky wizard would and could stand aside the world and play with the lives of those who came to kill us....or those we would go to kill...in his name.

And now...after time has watched us flail about and stumble, and sit and think...we reason. We start to understand that what we thought we understood...cannot be understood...because it cannot be. That which is left..as Doyle would write...is the truth.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

randomvim



Quote from: aitm on March 05, 2017, 09:09:06 PM
This is an interesting question, when presented to a human 3500 years ago. First, there was no concept of a "universe", at least not as we could conceive it. Everything we knew and could possibly comprehend ended at the clouds. We could not understand that the limit of the cloud was the beginning of a universe so vast that the greatest of human minds would spend decades to try to comprehend it . This is why we thought....2000 years ago that since water fell from the sky that the sky was actually.....water...as the babble proclaims.

And "spirit"...why long before we invented "gods" we thought everything had a spirit, a bond, a more than casual interconnection to everything in life. As such we painted walls in caves depicting our interaction with our fellow animals 33,000 years before we even invented a god. We carved totems to animals 8,000 years before we first murmured the concept that a giant sky wizard would and could stand aside the world and play with the lives of those who came to kill us....or those we would go to kill...in his name.

And now...after time has watched us flail about and stumble, and sit and think...we reason. We start to understand that what we thought we understood...cannot be understood...because it cannot be. That which is left..as Doyle would write...is the truth.

1. not a universe as we know it today. but a reality non the less.
I like point of view presented. this is bad communication on my part as I think of reality including what we would say is a universe scientifically explained. in that physical sense, yes, the clouds perhaps the limit until maybe antiquity greece? just a playful guess.

2. interesting concept that if we can not understand something, it does not exist. or can not be. Despite there being numerous theories, concepts, and ideas that not every human understands. That there are still information readily available though at the tip or beyond the tip of human understanding. some things we will come to know as we have come to know but various thinkers are open to saying some "facts" we may never know.

3. Fine gander at question. years ago we thought of spirits for everythin to explain a connection everything has. today we recognize a connection that everything has which can develop a philisophical brotherhood amongst men. but some things are ignored.


randomvim

Quote from: trdsf on March 05, 2017, 06:21:54 PM
Curiosity has led many to making profound discoveries about the natural world that have nothing to do with religion, and in many cases have vastly reduced the area in which any putative god might act freely.  You can't infer anything from curiosity beyond the idea that curiosity provided a survival advantage at some point in our past.
Or a desire to better understand ourself and reality develops a greater philisophical experience?

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trdsf

Quote from: randomvim on March 05, 2017, 10:30:06 PM
Or a desire to better understand ourself and reality develops a greater philisophical experience?
Philosophy generally doesn't move societies, however -- certainly not in the way religion does almost effortlessly.  For example, religionists like to take credit for ending slavery in America by bringing about a so-called 'great moral awakening' that made it no longer tenable, but at least as many christians supported slavery on biblical grounds as opposed it.  What ended it wasn't religion (or philosophy) spearheading a great wave of enlightenment, but economics and a long and bloody war.

And fundamentally, a philosophical experience is a personal one, much like a religious experience.  Philosophy has at least the benefit of not necessarily being based on faith, though.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

SGOS

Quote from: randomvim on March 05, 2017, 05:32:50 PM
This curiosity has been a great drive to understanding our own existence and have lead many to a religious life.
Yeah, so?  Curiosity also killed the cat.

randomvim

Quote from: SGOS on March 06, 2017, 11:27:20 AM
Yeah, so?  Curiosity also killed the cat.
Yes. that dog was rather too curious.

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randomvim

#160
Quote from: trdsf on March 05, 2017, 11:46:15 PM
Philosophy generally doesn't move societies, however -- certainly not in the way religion does almost effortlessly.  For example, religionists like to take credit for ending slavery in America by bringing about a so-called 'great moral awakening' that made it no longer tenable, but at least as many christians supported slavery on biblical grounds as opposed it.  What ended it wasn't religion (or philosophy) spearheading a great wave of enlightenment, but economics and a long and bloody war.

And fundamentally, a philosophical experience is a personal one, much like a religious experience.  Philosophy has at least the benefit of not necessarily being based on faith, though.

1. You sound like you speak about the americas slavery? Spain and Portugal stopped their part of slavery (though some may have continued despite) due to religious intervention.

Economics? war in US was because of economics but e.c.o. didnt halter slavery. souths economy relied on it. Thats how they climbed and stayed as influencial as they were.

But the awakening is a realisation and does not need to be with an opposite religion or group to be defined as such

2. Philosophy doesnt need to be religious but it does or can help develop religious thought and following.

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Baruch

Quote from: randomvim on March 06, 2017, 11:47:23 AM
1. You sound like you speak about the americas slavery? Spain and Portugal stopped their part of slavery (though some may have continued despite) due to religious intervention.

Economics? war in US was because of economics but e.c.o. didnt halter slavery. souths economy relied on it. Thats how they climbed and stayed as influencial as they were.

But the awakening is a realisation and does not need to be with an opposite religion or group to be defined as such

2. Philosophy doesnt need to be religious but it does or can help develop religious thought and following.

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We are very Anglophone centric here.  See the movie, The Mission ... the Catholic Church was more progressive to the Natives than the Crown.

Materialists don't believe in "a ghost in the machine".  We are just machines, like a clock, only spontaneously assembled, unlike a clock.  Yes, some non-theists are agnostic, some are atheist, and some are anti-theist.  People who tout the Enlightenment, think things improved because of powdered wigs and dancing the minuette.  Very pre-French Revolution, very Euro-centric.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Unbeliever

Quote from: randomvim on March 05, 2017, 12:43:50 PM
what about natural human curiosity about the universe and spirit?
Well, we can see that there's a universe, but we can't see that there is any "spirit."

"It is not God that is worshipped but the group or authority that claims to speak in His name. Sin becomes disobedience to authority not violation of integrity."
Radhakrishnan, Sir Sarvepalli
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

randomvim



Quote from: Baruch on March 06, 2017, 12:46:48 PM
We are very Anglophone centric here.  See the movie, The Mission ... the Catholic Church was more progressive to the Natives than the Crown.

Materialists don't believe in "a ghost in the machine".  We are just machines, like a clock, only spontaneously assembled, unlike a clock.  Yes, some non-theists are agnostic, some are atheist, and some are anti-theist.  People who tout the Enlightenment, think things improved because of powdered wigs and dancing the minuette.  Very pre-French Revolution, very Euro-centric.

materialists? Last I check this is just a random person whose center is in the things they own and could be anyone under diverse beliefs.

How are they centered under thinking there is not a ghost in the shell?

and by that you refer to a soul?

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randomvim



Quote from: Unbeliever on March 07, 2017, 07:09:39 PM
Well, we can see that there's a universe, but we can't see that there is any "spirit."

"It is not God that is worshipped but the group or authority that claims to speak in His name. Sin becomes disobedience to authority not violation of integrity."
Radhakrishnan, Sir Sarvepalli

1. How is the group or a group worshipped instead of?

2. Spirit can be summarized by an individual's character as well as what is seen as stregnths and weaknesses. An inner self. Understanding self. This I see in diverse cultures and heritage around globe.

Some terms may have changed and become more secular, but these aspects are still searched for.

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