Is morality an invention or do we all have somewhat of a built in compass?

Started by 374621, November 10, 2016, 06:02:19 PM

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Mike Cl

Quote from: Absurd Atheist on November 12, 2016, 08:17:59 PM
I think the Native Americans were among the few who got society right. Then the Europeans showed up.
Some did--others not so much.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Absurd Atheist

Quote from: 374621 on November 11, 2016, 06:10:56 AM
Personally for me moral are rules which you live or try to live by, like the golden rule, never stealing unless you really have to like our starving, or never cheating on your partner. I dont have morals i think currently in my life, im deciding how ill live my life or if ill always be all over the place like sometimes im nice and want to be a good person because it feels good but sometimes im selfish and am willing to screw over other people if it benefits me

i dont like the word morality because it involves rules that you impose upon yourself, if it wasnt illegal and i would never get caught and i dint feel guilty or remorse or experienced any "bad" feelings by doing it that it would benefit me somehow there would be no reason for me not to steal not to lie etc, if i enjoyed hitting dogs for no reason merely because it felt good for example, which i dont btw, but if it felt good i would honestly do it, some people may say thats immoral or wrong but you cant give me any reason for me to not do it

I don't think we impose morals on ourselves, I think we collectively agree on what we like and don't like and then teach our children through the generations. Stealing is only bad because people need property to be protected. The gut feeling people receive when about to steal is socialization. I see many more reasons to steal, and was a bit of a kleptomaniac in my younger days. Cheating is hardly amoral anymore with changing societal standards on sex and relationships.

For example, how you're forming morals these days is probably how they did it back in the day, except everyone acted as you do and it was a system of trial and error.

"Hmm, I just killed that dude and now his friends are trying to kill me. Maybe I should tell my son to be careful not to murder needlessly."

Which evolved into only kill in self-defense. The morality aspect is that we generally feel that killing is bad. I don't know this to be true of course, but it's a guess. For example, on this website I think we've all learned to value rational thought over blind following. I agree that our current system doesn't have an actual reason behind a lot of our morals and ethics, not that they are wrong it's just we don't know why they're right. That's why laws are so important, because it no longer becomes optional, and that's the price of the social contract.

Ironically I'm currently drafting a book on the subject of global ethics and rational reasoning behind laws.
"To have faith is to lose your mind and to win God."
-The Sickness unto Death - 1849

Absurd Atheist

"To have faith is to lose your mind and to win God."
-The Sickness unto Death - 1849

Cavebear

Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on November 11, 2016, 10:53:23 AM
Let me break down the basic "primitive" morality:
1. Don't kill members of your own tribe.
2. Share your resources with your tribe.
3. Assist members of your tribe.

Of course there's a bit more than that, and some nuances, but those are the three main "rules". Tribalism makes it easier to kill members of a another group. They're not human anymore to you, because they're an outsider. Likewise a slave master would not feel guilty for mistreating his slaves because they are not "human" to him.

This attachment to other humans regardless of what group they're part of is due to cultural influences that are taught to you from birth. You begin to see all other humans as part of your tribe. That's why the military tries to deprogram that in a way, they try to make the enemy seem as less than human or as outsiders to your tribe. That's also why it's so easy for someone in a group like ISIS to so casually behead someone, they see anyone not sufficiently Islamic to them as outside the tribe. There is nothing wrong according to the primitive morality with killing or mistreating things outside of your tribe.

Cultural solidarity is the basis for all organization.  Family first, friends second, allies third, and trade after that.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: Mike Cl on November 12, 2016, 08:28:31 PM
Some did--others not so much.

Resource scarcity drives human violence.  Central Mexico is a scrub desert, Yucatan is a jungle ... both are hard places to live in.  Once your population gets too big, and the resources are marginal to begin with you become Easter Island.

Ah, but we do love or Noble Savage myth of Rousseau!  So 1970s, so crying native.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Absurd Atheist on November 12, 2016, 08:16:59 PM
Don't you think it's inefficient to try and track down every criminal before they really start their "careers"?

People who are into pre-crime aren't worried about efficiency.  They are paranoid.  The original pre-crime effort was spanking your children.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mike Cl

Quote from: Baruch on November 13, 2016, 10:13:25 AM
Resource scarcity drives human violence.  Central Mexico is a scrub desert, Yucatan is a jungle ... both are hard places to live in.  Once your population gets to big, and the resources are marginal to begin with you become Easter Island.

Ah, but we do love or Noble Savage myth of Rousseau!  So 1970s, so crying native.
The Noble Native American is sort of like the bible.  One can find whatever they want to trot out as the best example of something or to prove their point.  The Native Americans (who were not really Native since all human life comes from Africa) were/are people.  Each group, tribe or nation had great points and some not so great.  Sort of like people everywhere.  But we cannot escape the fact that they were here prior to the Europeans (or any other group) and did not deserve what history dealt to them.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mermaid

A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

Baruch

Quote from: Mike Cl on November 13, 2016, 10:44:27 AM
The Noble Native American is sort of like the bible.  One can find whatever they want to trot out as the best example of something or to prove their point.  The Native Americans (who were not really Native since all human life comes from Africa) were/are people.  Each group, tribe or nation had great points and some not so great.  Sort of like people everywhere.  But we cannot escape the fact that they were here prior to the Europeans (or any other group) and did not deserve what history dealt to them.

It takes an act of the imagination, to put yourself into Apocalypto.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eE1hxj1yzU .. the city slickers against the red necks

Native Americans are a mirror, that shows us who we all are ... not some ideal.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Wonder Woman as savior ...

"I used to want to save the world, this beautiful place, but the closer you get, the more you see the great darkness within."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q8fG0TtVAY

Movies are fiction, but they are closer to the truth than some think.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Absurd Atheist

Quote from: Baruch on November 13, 2016, 10:14:47 AM
People who are into pre-crime aren't worried about efficiency.  They are paranoid.  The original pre-crime effort was spanking your children.

fair enough, however I don't know if the society-citizen relationship is as strong or close a bond as the parent-child relationship, at least not in the modern day.
"To have faith is to lose your mind and to win God."
-The Sickness unto Death - 1849

Baruch

Quote from: Absurd Atheist on November 13, 2016, 03:41:02 PM
fair enough, however I don't know if the society-citizen relationship is as strong or close a bond as the parent-child relationship, at least not in the modern day.

It varies.  Generic socialization is thru the public school system.  Serious socialization is done in the armed forces.  Citizens are made, they don't happen spontaneously.  Family/clan/tribe organization happens spontaneously ... hence bigotry against outsiders.  With nations, this is channelled into patriotic warfare.  Of course religion (to bind) is used for socialization ... into sectarian groups.  I have experienced all of these (though as a civilian in the military).

Europe is different than the US ... at least in the short run, the EU diminishes patriotism, in favor of a much weaker ideal.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Solomon Zorn

I don't think we are so completely disconnected from each other, that we don't feel something instinctively when we cheat, steal or kill. We are a complex species, with a brain to match. Natural selection has no doubt limited the number of sociopaths in the population.

But don't forget that there is such a thing as ignoring your conscience, and doing it anyway. That's the image I have of these kids in ISIS: they override their conscience, and end up getting a thrill, from the rush of emotion. It is very similar to fear. The conscience isn't foolproof.
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: Solomon Zorn on November 14, 2016, 02:37:20 PM
I don't think we are so completely disconnected from each other, that we don't feel something instinctively when we cheat, steal or kill.
The vast majority of us, certainly. But one of the hallmarks of a serial killer is a complete lack of empathy for his* victims.


*"His" because the overwhelming majority of serial killers are male.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Cavebear

I could kill without much concern for a good reason...  You aim a gun at an innocent person, and I have one, you're dead.  There are 6 billion of us, you aren't special, and no loss when you you are gone.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!