Is morality an invention or do we all have somewhat of a built in compass?

Started by 374621, November 10, 2016, 06:02:19 PM

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Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: Cavebear on November 11, 2016, 07:58:52 AM
Especially when making gravy.  But what do YOU mean by "lumping"?
We have been lumping morals and ethics together.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Baruch

Quote from: 374621 on November 10, 2016, 07:21:25 PM
Alot of them cant be changed, theres no arguments that you can use on them. Some people feel no empathy no remorse for doing evil things and dont get any pleasure in doing nice/good things, how can you convince them to adopt morals or to "acquire" a conscience

Some people should be eliminated early in their criminal careers ... but hope brings mercy ... even if it turns out to be foolish.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: drunkenshoe on November 11, 2016, 08:00:00 AM
Gawdzilla? What is wrong with you? You are not acting the way you usually do. Trump?
Actually, I have never acted the way I usually do. But today I'm home in my own bed and on hydrocodone, Valium, and lidocaine patches.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Cavebear

Quote from: Sal1981 on November 11, 2016, 08:09:07 AM
I think Gawdzilla Sama means that the concepts of 'ethics' and 'morality' overlap or something.
They do overlap in action, but have different bases of origin and justification.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: 374621 on November 10, 2016, 08:34:22 PM
What caused the change in humans at some point in the past, what happened where men were conquering other tribes/villages and raping the women and be ok with it, some buried female babies simply or being a girl, slavery, and all the other evil/barbaric things humans did, how do we go from this to humans starting to think and feel bad for their actions, starting to help their fellow man because it made them happy.

I guess its not that important, perhaps the only way to find the answers to my questions is if i could see what humans thought and felt all throughout history...

Zoroaster said "Don't be cruel to animals or people" long before anyone else did ... it was an outgrowth of the "karma" culture of the Indo-Iranian peoples.  But that was based more on fear of retribution in the next life (you might come back as the cow you were cruel to).  Having empathy is a further development.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: 374621 on November 10, 2016, 06:02:19 PM
I was wondering if all or most humans throughout history have had a conscience, this inner feeling that makes them feel bad when they murder for no reason or makes them feel good if they feed a homeless man for example. Or is morality a man made thing, maybe with religion the religious authorities started telling everyone what is good and what is bad and told the masses what rules to follow because this is what God wants maybe his is how morality was originated?. I wonder if the people that owned slaves ever felt bad/guity about owning them or if they never experienced a discomfort in owning another human being or maybe they thought their slaves were animals or something. I wonder if in the distant past when humans were hunters if they didnt feel bad going into a village and killing the men and taking the women for themselves or maybe they did feel bad but they ignored that feeling.

Native Americans had myths to deal with the problem of killing animals, yet seeing animals as a kind of people, that were being murdered.  Compensation had to be offered, to the animals, or the gods, for the trespass of hunting.  Also fear of an enraged buffalo stomping on you.  Native Americans got in touch with this, by the stories told by their parents, and thru a spirit quest (shamanism).  They basically stitched their individual story into the larger story of their tribe and of nature.  This is a poetic and creative act.  This is part of the reason for the elaborate animal sacrifice system, including the Jerusalem Temple.  Sacralized barbecue.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 10, 2016, 06:35:08 PM
Animals other than humans show morality. "Groom and be groomed", for example.

Ah yes, the Clinton Foundation ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: 374621 on November 10, 2016, 06:41:20 PM
If kids are taught at an early age that its ok to murder steal lie etc if its for your benefit will they ever "feel bad" for doing what they do

The real Arabs are raised in a harsh climate.  Well supplied Polynesians are very different (not Easter Island).  So being an Arab is a harsh circumstance ... and they are a harsh people.  Polynesians ... one big luau.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Gawdzilla Sama

We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

The Skeletal Atheist

Quote from: 374621 on November 10, 2016, 07:13:24 PM
What Im curious about is not so much morality but conscience. Have we always felt bad/guilty for killing someone who angered us, did slave owners feel any negative feelings.

Let me break down the basic "primitive" morality:
1. Don't kill members of your own tribe.
2. Share your resources with your tribe.
3. Assist members of your tribe.

Of course there's a bit more than that, and some nuances, but those are the three main "rules". Tribalism makes it easier to kill members of a another group. They're not human anymore to you, because they're an outsider. Likewise a slave master would not feel guilty for mistreating his slaves because they are not "human" to him.

This attachment to other humans regardless of what group they're part of is due to cultural influences that are taught to you from birth. You begin to see all other humans as part of your tribe. That's why the military tries to deprogram that in a way, they try to make the enemy seem as less than human or as outsiders to your tribe. That's also why it's so easy for someone in a group like ISIS to so casually behead someone, they see anyone not sufficiently Islamic to them as outside the tribe. There is nothing wrong according to the primitive morality with killing or mistreating things outside of your tribe.
Some people need to be beaten with a smart stick.

Kein Mehrheit Fur Die Mitleid!

Kein Mitlied F�r Die Mehrheit!

Baruch

Agreed ... but modern people can't even qualify as primitive tribal members ... we are toxic except in the war of everyone against everyone else.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Sal1981

Quote from: Baruch on November 11, 2016, 12:14:29 PM
Agreed ... but modern people can't even qualify as primitive tribal members ... we are toxic except in the war of everyone against everyone else.
Really? Dang. I had hopes for a global village.

Baruch

Quote from: Sal1981 on November 11, 2016, 12:28:54 PM
Really? Dang. I had hopes for a global village.

That is the Oprah planet ... you aren't on the Oprah planet.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Absurd Atheist

Quote from: Baruch on November 11, 2016, 09:28:14 AM
Some people should be eliminated early in their criminal careers ... but hope brings mercy ... even if it turns out to be foolish.

Don't you think it's inefficient to try and track down every criminal before they really start their "careers"?
"To have faith is to lose your mind and to win God."
-The Sickness unto Death - 1849

Absurd Atheist

Quote from: Baruch on November 11, 2016, 09:36:49 AM
Native Americans had myths to deal with the problem of killing animals, yet seeing animals as a kind of people, that were being murdered.  Compensation had to be offered, to the animals, or the gods, for the trespass of hunting.  Also fear of an enraged buffalo stomping on you.  Native Americans got in touch with this, by the stories told by their parents, and thru a spirit quest (shamanism).  They basically stitched their individual story into the larger story of their tribe and of nature.  This is a poetic and creative act.  This is part of the reason for the elaborate animal sacrifice system, including the Jerusalem Temple.  Sacralized barbecue.

I think the Native Americans were among the few who got society right. Then the Europeans showed up.
"To have faith is to lose your mind and to win God."
-The Sickness unto Death - 1849