Is morality an invention or do we all have somewhat of a built in compass?

Started by 374621, November 10, 2016, 06:02:19 PM

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374621

Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on November 10, 2016, 07:05:12 PM
Humans are social animals. That necessitates a primitive sense of "morality". The rest is cultural.

What Im curious about is not so much morality but conscience. Have we always felt bad/guilty for killing someone who angered us, did slave owners feel any negative feelings.

374621

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on November 10, 2016, 07:12:32 PM
If empathy evolved, and we can see it in other group-animals, Why would it not be present in our ancesters before humans could first be called humans?

Religions and THE belief in forces greater than ourselves develloped, evolved and changed through social evolution and social interaction. Just as laws and morality. Or so it seems. To claim one "fully develloped" as THE instigator of THE other seems Like a stretch to me.

If you need religion for morality, what would THE world look Like without religion, to you? What would people without religion be Like, according to you?


im not saying you need religion for morality i was just giving an example that maybe thats how humans started have a moral compass when religions like christi or islam gained followers or came into existence.

aitm

Quote from: 374621 on November 10, 2016, 07:13:24 PM
What Im curious about is not so much morality but conscience. Have we always felt bad/guilty for killing someone who angered us, did slave owners feel any negative feelings.

All the gods have not shown any "negative" feeling when bragging about killing millions of helpless, innocents humans…. so…..we are still better than the gods eh?
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

374621

Quote from: aitm on November 10, 2016, 07:11:09 PM
You doubt wrong, thankfully.

Alot of them cant be changed, theres no arguments that you can use on them. Some people feel no empathy no remorse for doing evil things and dont get any pleasure in doing nice/good things, how can you convince them to adopt morals or to "acquire" a conscience

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: 374621 on November 10, 2016, 07:03:11 PM
I doubt their mindset can be changed, for example sociopaths/psychopaths, how can you tell them to have empathy or not do bad things, or to be nice, if it were legal they could get away with it alot of them would murder simply to steal a 100$ and they would not feel remorse at all, if they were to volunteer or feed someone whos hungry they would not get this feel good feeling that most humans would get.
If you're going with aberrant personalities, okay. But humans in general are quite capable of changing their viewpoints. Doesn't mean they will, just that they can.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

aitm

Quote from: 374621 on November 10, 2016, 07:21:25 PM
Alot of them cant be changed, theres no arguments that you can use on them. Some people feel no empathy no remorse for doing evil things and dont get any pleasure in doing nice/good things, how can you convince them to adopt morals or to "acquire" a conscience

"A lot" of a small group is a smaller group. Using sociopaths as your beacon of morality and then also their habits has the median is a bit of a stretch.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: 374621 on November 10, 2016, 07:18:05 PM

im not saying you need religion for morality i was just giving an example that maybe thats how humans started have a moral compass when religions like christi or islam gained followers or came into existence.
Oh, fuck. People didn't have moral compass before Christ? Puh-leeze.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

doorknob

Quote from: 374621 on November 10, 2016, 06:50:47 PM
I wonder if in the distant past humans didnt have any morals or a conscience and when religion/philosophies or more established religion like Christianity came along  all of a sudden morals were introduced and people started having morals/ethics and fast forward to now i think most humans have what is known as a conscience that makes them feel bad if they steal or murder.

Was thinking if some humans live all their lives in a cave or are raised by animals/feral children I wonder if their introduced to the real/outside world if they would have any morals

yeah there's just one thing. Lying stealing and killing were all things that most of the world agreed were unethical way before christianity came along to "tell" them what was right and wrong. You see Christians barrow many things from other cultures and religions. They were not the first and certainly aren't the end all.

Mr.Obvious

Quote from: 374621 on November 10, 2016, 07:18:05 PM

im not saying you need religion for morality i was just giving an example that maybe thats how humans started have a moral compass when religions like christi or islam gained followers or came into existence.

And is the point of this thread to just think out loud? Or do you have any good reason to think your hypothesis is true?
I understand what you are saying. I don't know why you think it's a logical conclusion to make. I've alluded to some of the reasons why I think this hypothesis of yours seems unlikely. You don't need to repeat the message in response though. I got the idea. We all got the idea by now. Walk me through why you think it might be true.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

374621

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on November 10, 2016, 07:45:48 PM
And is the point of this thread to just think out loud? Or do you have any good reason to think your hypothesis is true?
I understand what you are saying. I don't know why you think it's a logical conclusion to make. I've alluded to some of the reasons why I think this hypothesis of yours seems unlikely. You don't need to repeat the message in response though. I got the idea. We all got the idea by now. Walk me through why you think it might be true.

Its the only example that i can think of, i dont know if its true or not. What i want to know is have humans always had a conscience or has it changed/evolved/developed

aitm

Quote from: 374621 on November 10, 2016, 08:00:57 PM
What i want to know is have humans always had a conscience or has it changed/evolved/developed
Well of course it has, ever hear/read about evolution? Really?
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Mr.Obvious

Quote from: 374621 on November 10, 2016, 08:00:57 PM
Its the only example that i can think of, i dont know if its true or not. What i want to know is have humans always had a conscience or has it changed/evolved/developed

But then it's not the only example you can think of, right? If you concider it could have evolved, that is another 'example', isn't it?

If you want my opinion on the matter; unless you got good reason for thinking religion was the creator of 'morality' or 'conscience', don't assume it is. There are actually good reasons to think it isn't. But that doesn't even matter all that much. As long as you don't have any good reasons to think it is, it does not follow that you should think it is.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

374621

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on November 10, 2016, 08:15:59 PM
But then it's not the only example you can think of, right? If you concider it could have evolved, that is another 'example', isn't it?

If you want my opinion on the matter; unless you got good reason for thinking religion was the creator of 'morality' or 'conscience', don't assume it is. There are actually good reasons to think it isn't. But that doesn't even matter all that much. As long as you don't have any good reasons to think it is, it does not follow that you should think it is.

What caused the change in humans at some point in the past, what happened where men were conquering other tribes/villages and raping the women and be ok with it, some buried female babies simply or being a girl, slavery, and all the other evil/barbaric things humans did, how do we go from this to humans starting to think and feel bad for their actions, starting to help their fellow man because it made them happy.

I guess its not that important, perhaps the only way to find the answers to my questions is if i could see what humans thought and felt all throughout history...

aitm

Quote from: 374621 on November 10, 2016, 08:34:22 PM
What caused the change in humans at some point in the past, what happened where men were conquering other tribes/villages and raping the women and be ok with it, some buried female babies simply or being a girl, slavery, and all the other evil/barbaric things humans did, how do we go from this to humans starting to think and feel bad for their actions, starting to help their fellow man because it made them happy.

I guess its not that important, perhaps the only way to find the answers to my questions is if i could see what humans thought and felt all throughout history...

first of all, humanity is still doing the evil shit you start off with and second…you CAN see what humans thought and felt…they are called history books.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Mr.Obvious

Quote from: 374621 on November 10, 2016, 08:34:22 PM
What caused the change in humans at some point in the past, what happened where men were conquering other tribes/villages and raping the women and be ok with it, some buried female babies simply or being a girl, slavery, and all the other evil/barbaric things humans did, how do we go from this to humans starting to think and feel bad for their actions, starting to help their fellow man because it made them happy.

Try not to think of it in terms like 'caused  the change' and 'at some point in the past'. History and sociology show us that while revolutions do occur and are fascinating subjects; most change happens gradually and over longer time.
Anyways, I'm going to leave it at that for now. I feel like this conversation is kind off going in circles. Sorry.

But one last thing though:

QuoteI guess its not that important, perhaps the only way to find the answers to my questions is if i could see what humans thought and felt all throughout history...
It's actually a very interesting topic; human empathy and morality. And I don't think you should resign your queste because the only way you see you can learn everything is through an impossible method. We may not be able to learn all, but we can learn and reason a great deal.  Just attempt to also think of alternative hypotheses. And think of every one how they could be proven or disproven, why they seem more or less likely. And then examine. Don't just pose a hypothesis; think on it.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.