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Anti-Vaxers - They are everywhere!

Started by Aroura33, February 11, 2015, 03:32:10 PM

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Mermaid

Quote from: Baruch on January 22, 2016, 08:09:31 PM
Don't let the parents put their kids in any public school, or pay their property tax etc ... unless they do it.  With the IRS, you are a germ until proven otherwise ;-)  The school nurse probably can't do this, but she doesn't do brain surgery either.
Do what? Test for rare diseases or allergies? Are there tests for that?

A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

Baruch

Quote from: Mermaid on January 22, 2016, 09:26:26 PM
Do what? Test for rare diseases or allergies? Are there tests for that?

I certainly hope so ... test for allergies or rare conditions (not diseases ... that would be some microbe).  I had an allergy test, using small spots on my back created by little injections of stuff ... kind of like testing for TB.  Reaction or not at the injections site.  This was 45 years ago.  But there is no guarantee that something will never go undetected, leading to a rare but bad reaction.  If your body chemistry is rare enough, then you will have medical problems for sure.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mermaid

Quote from: Baruch on January 23, 2016, 11:16:00 PM
I certainly hope so ... test for allergies or rare conditions (not diseases ... that would be some microbe).  I had an allergy test, using small spots on my back created by little injections of stuff ... kind of like testing for TB.  Reaction or not at the injections site.  This was 45 years ago.  But there is no guarantee that something will never go undetected, leading to a rare but bad reaction.  If your body chemistry is rare enough, then you will have medical problems for sure.
That is my point: There aren't. It's not that simple. Biology is a mind-blowingly complicated thing, and we understand very little about how cells work and interact. People have extremely unrealistic expectations about medical technology.

(by the way, diseases are not all microbial).
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

Baruch

Quote from: Mermaid on January 24, 2016, 10:10:11 AM
That is my point: There aren't. It's not that simple. Biology is a mind-blowingly complicated thing, and we understand very little about how cells work and interact. People have extremely unrealistic expectations about medical technology.

(by the way, diseases are not all microbial).

So. perfection or suicide?  Isn't the "perfect" the enemy of "good enough".  So if we can't 1000% screen for peanut allergy among school children, we have to shut down all schools, outlaw peanuts, or shoot all the parents?  Which one ... I am confused?  The shoot all the parents crowd ... reminds me that atheists aren't atheists because they are rational ... there is some other reason, but rationality isn't it.

Yes, medicine isn't perfect ... but I think we should use what we have.  Dr McCoy isn't born yet.  And yes, some problems are "syndrome" but those are often triggered by prior microbial infections ... that is how my mother-in-law, wife and daughter were ... genetic predisposition gets put out of whack by a microbial infection, leading to a subsequent syndrome.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mermaid

Quote from: Baruch on January 24, 2016, 10:16:47 AM
So. perfection or suicide?  Isn't the "perfect" the enemy of "good enough".  So if we can't 1000% screen for peanut allergy among school children, we have to shut down all schools, outlaw peanuts, or shoot all the parents?  Which one ... I am confused?  The shoot all the parents crowd ... reminds me that atheists aren't atheists because they are rational ... there is some other reason, but rationality isn't it.

Yes, medicine isn't perfect ... but I think we should use what we have.  Dr McCoy isn't born yet.  And yes, some problems are "syndrome" but those are often triggered by prior microbial infections ... that is how my mother-in-law, wife and daughter were ... genetic predisposition gets put out of whack by a microbial infection, leading to a subsequent syndrome.
I'm sorry, what?

A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

Fickle

#35
Baruch
QuoteSo. perfection or suicide?  Isn't the "perfect" the enemy of "good enough".  So if we can't 1000% screen for peanut allergy among school children, we have to shut down all schools, outlaw peanuts, or shoot all the parents?  Which one ... I am confused?  The shoot all the parents crowd ... reminds me that atheists aren't atheists because they are rational ... there is some other reason, but rationality isn't it.

I would agree and I am not an anti-Vaxer. The numbers published from Health Canada suggest last years flu vaccine was only 15% effective yet cost the taxpayers 1.5 Billion dollars. As well it is known that some people had adverse reactions, some contracted the flu from the vaccine and in some cases led to severe life threatning complications. What disturbs me is one side is screaming people are stupid for not getting vaccinated for the flu, they put everyone at risk and vaccinations should be forced on others. Meanwhile the other group reads some article on the internet and makes a choice not to vaccinate based on heresay not facts. I see no reason or logic in it from both sides of the equation because very few are actually making an informed decision.

When my daughter got vaccinated, MMR, the health nurse did not know what was in the vaccine, she did not know any facts concerning the actual effictivness or the most common severe side effects or who to contact. In effect she didn't know fuck all about anything and yet she is a supposed health care proffessional. My wife is also an RN and strange as it may seem she has less faith in the health care system than I do. She has seen may doctors misdiagnose people who almost died, wrong perscriptions which would have killed the patient if a nurse had not intervened and the list goes on and on. Incompetence is rampant within the system and yet so many would seem to have such extreme faith in it.

Which brings us full circle back to the issue of faith and beliefs in things which are not actually true in reality. Much in science may be sound but that in no way implies the "people" who administer it are, everyone has a vested interest in one way or another and none are truly equal because we are human.
I like this article--http://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/november/fraud-science-papers-111615.html , Oh the humanity.
Which raises the question, what are the facts when some 47% have changed them or know someone who has changed them to suit their own vested interests?.

It's definitely a minefield any way we look at it, tread lightly.




Baruch

I also work in medicine.  Doctors and nurses are ordinary people, even somewhat odd people.  I just had two teeth pulled yesterday.  The oral surgeon likes guns and has them mounted on his exam wall.  I was under the influence of nitrous oxide, but I am a pretty funny guy anyway.  I jabbered with the surgeon as he worked on me ... and I figured he knew the facts ... how Doc Holliday was both a dentist and a gun man.  We both had a good laugh ... ouch!

If one is ideologically opposed to medicine, and some anti-vaxxers are ... then they are wrong ... but that doesn't make the vaccination right.  Informed consent is the only way to go.  And between med school and ongoing practice certification, hopefully you are under the care of competent people.   But just because some remunerated drug production company endorses some medicine or procedure ... caveat emptor.  For most of history, TV advertisement of medical drugs to the public was illegal for good reason.  Similarly lawyers were not allowed to advertise on TV.  All medicine is risky, but in most cases the risk is worthwhile.  But for a few patients, they need a second opinion, before a well meaning medical professional injures or kills them.

Other people make an idol out of medicine or providers.  I am sorry to hear if some vaccines are so ineffective.  Sounds like bad manufacturing or need for new research.  I have no problem with a government health agency recommending some things ... but making it mandatory takes away from the doctor.  I wouldn't want a politician as a doctor.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

PickelledEggs

I still say quarantine all the antivaxxers to a deserted tropical island so they can start their own civilization... if they survive malaria.

Fickle

QuoteI also work in medicine.  Doctors and nurses are ordinary people, even somewhat odd people

In many ways they/we are actors not unlike politicians and police services. They are ordinary people trained to give others the impression they are more than they are so they feel more secure in the choices being made. However once we get past the facade they are very much ordinary people doing the job they have been trained to do not unlike myself. The problems arise when people believe they are much more than they are and a cult like status evolves around a profession not unlike a religion. Their words are considered gospel beyond question and those who do question it are heretics, I guess I am a heretic because I question everything.

Hydra009

Quote from: Fickle on February 27, 2016, 11:33:34 AMI would agree and I am not an anti-Vaxer. The numbers published from Health Canada suggest last years flu vaccine was only 15% effective yet cost the taxpayers 1.5 Billion dollars.
15%?  Wow.  That's abnormal.  The usual figures are more along the lines of >50%.  Even so, I dunno about you, but 15% beats 0% any day.

QuoteAs well it is known that some people had adverse reactions, some contracted the flu from the vaccine and in some cases led to severe life threatning complications.
Is it less than the number of people who die from the flu?

QuoteMy wife is also an RN and strange as it may seem she has less faith in the health care system than I do. She has seen may doctors misdiagnose people who almost died, wrong perscriptions which would have killed the patient if a nurse had not intervened and the list goes on and on. Incompetence is rampant within the system and yet so many would seem to have such extreme faith in it.
While it's true that medical care is not perfect, it beats the alternative.  These sorts of horror stories just scare people away from legitimate medical care and towards the waiting arms of unqualified laymen or predatory quacks.

chill98

Quote from: Hydra009 on February 27, 2016, 02:51:09 PM
15%?  Wow.  That's abnormal.  The usual figures are more along the lines of >50%.  Even so, I dunno about you, but 15% beats 0% any day.


Flu vaccine effectiveness:

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/vaccination/effectiveness-studies.htm

Depends on what happens when it fails.  An unrealistic sense of security while wandering around creates a situation where you (if vulnerable) do not take precautions because 'I've had the shot'. Precautions as minimal as not worrying about self to ignoring early symptoms and exposing others because you have no reason to believe it might be the flu.

AllPurposeAtheist

Maybe we need a new state  or at least city called Antivaxerville with one road in and no roads out. If Trump is elected he can make them pay for the giant wall to keep them all in.
All hail my new signature!

Admit it. You're secretly green with envy.

mauricio

Quote from: Fickle on February 27, 2016, 11:33:34 AM
Baruch
I would agree and I am not an anti-Vaxer. The numbers published from Health Canada suggest last years flu vaccine was only 15% effective yet cost the taxpayers 1.5 Billion dollars.


You fail to mention the fact that vaccines are not only for protecting an specific individual but to prevent exponential spread through the population by reducing the amount of people that an infected person can infect. Closing the gap between an average infection of 2 people by one infected person to 1 or less creates herd immunity preventing a pandemic.

AllPurposeAtheist

Take a look at a class of drugs called statins.. (might be misspelling it) One school of thought is everyone over 50 should take them daily to prevent heart attacks. The other side says that they're ineffective until after you've already had the heart attack. They do cause muscle pain and weakness. My VA doc keeps telling me that I have to take them, but I tell him they make me ache all over and since the same doc refuses to prescribe anything for the pain the statins cause I don't take them.
One huge problem is with doctors who receive kick backs from drug manufacturers so they over prescribe certain drugs that are either ineffective or in many cases more harmful than whatever disease or condition they're intended to treat.
Most doctors I think really want to do what's right for their patients, but there are plenty more who have to make the payments on their new homes so whatever the drug rep says becomes the law as far as they're concerned..
Pick your poison..
All hail my new signature!

Admit it. You're secretly green with envy.

AllPurposeAtheist

Quote from: mauricio on February 27, 2016, 04:34:09 PM
You fail to mention the fact that vaccines are not only for protecting an specific individual but to prevent exponential spread through the population by reducing the amount of people that an infected person can infect. Closing the gap between an average infection of 2 people by one infected person to 1 or less creates herd immunity preventing a pandemic.
There are those among us who believe that no matter what disease they might have nobody should be able to make them get treatment even if the disease is highly contagious and could potentially kill anyone who comes in contact with them. Sometimes I think that they would claim that anyone who gets sick and dies as a result of their negligence did it by choice.. Well,  you CHOSE TO get on the crowded elevator with me and my horrible disease. It's your fault..
All hail my new signature!

Admit it. You're secretly green with envy.