Quote from: FaithIsFilth on February 11, 2016, 06:52:32 PM
My response to this would be that I see a transgender girl as a girl. Technically their sex is still male, and it will always be male, surgery or no surgery, but their gender is female and they are a girl to me, so I see it as girls using the washroom with other girls. I don't see it as anyone having their rights taken away.

Absolutely a transgender girl is a girl.  We're not in the bronze age any more where we don't have the science and understanding to tell us otherwise.  But that doesn't mean I want my 10 year old daughter potentially seeing a penis.  I'm not a prude or anything, it's just that she's 10.

And I would bet most people who would abuse this wouldn't be jerking off or anything so obvious.  They would likely have a hidden camera.  Girls' bathrooms and changing rooms are already a target for this type.  Not only would the be able to physically be there, they would have an excuse for walking in there in the first place to plant a camera.

But all of that is speculation and not really relevant to the conversation.  What is relevant is that you cannot say, "Okay, we're going to take rights (actual, not imagined like Republicans love to pretend are real) away from this group so that we can give new rights to that group."

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying there is anything whatsoever wrong with a transgender girl using the girl's restroom...IF everyone is okay with that.  Personally, other than the speculative fears, I don't have a huge problem with it.  PROBABLY nothing bad is going to happen.  PROBABLY the transgender girl is not going to just whip it out for all to see.  There would be some who abused it, yes, but you have that now.  The problem comes when we realize we cannot force people to not be bigots.  If you try to force this on people who are adamantly against it, first, it's not fair to them, even though they hold the opinions and beliefs of an asshole, and second, being assholes aside, they still have AND DESERVE rights just like anyone else.  To them, we're the assholes.

I understand not wanting a girl to see a penis. That makes sense. Maybe the transgender girl should change in a stall and not be fully nude in the change rooms. As far as washrooms go though, I worry about the message it would send by having a new washroom rather than letting them use the girls. By not letting them use the girls washroom, the transgender person might take that as a message of "You're a freak and not a real girl, so you can't use the girls". What if we told gays they couldn't use the washroom with other boys because they might be into those boys? I worry about it being taken in that kind of way, and yeah the schools or whatever other public place can have new washrooms if they want, but if it was my decision, I don't think I would refuse transgenders the ability to choose the girls washroom. For uncomfortable girls, there is the handicapped washroom which gives you privacy, or they could wait until the washrooms are pretty much empty and go then.  I see where you're coming from with the third washroom idea, and if the school wants to do it that way then fine, but I have my doubts that transgender people are going to be huge fans of that idea. Do we really have the right to feel completely comfortable in the washrooms at school or out in public? I don't think we do. Plenty of people don't like sharing a washroom with gays. Plenty of fathers don't like gay men in the washroom with their young sons.

As far as hidden cameras in public washrooms go, it's already extremely easy to plant one of those. I don't really see that as much more of a concern than it already is.

Quote from: FaithIsFilth on February 12, 2016, 12:48:24 PM
I understand not wanting a girl to see a penis. That makes sense. Maybe the transgender girl should change in a stall and not be fully nude in the change rooms. As far as washrooms go though, I worry about the message it would send by having a new washroom rather than letting them use the girls. By not letting them use the girls washroom, the transgender person might take that as a message of "You're a freak and not a real girl, so you can't use the girls". What if we told gays they couldn't use the washroom with other boys because they might be into those boys? I worry about it being taken in that kind of way, and yeah the schools or whatever other public place can have new washrooms if they want, but if it was my decision, I don't think I would refuse transgenders the ability to choose the girls washroom. For uncomfortable girls, there is the handicapped washroom which gives you privacy, or they could wait until the washrooms are pretty much empty and go then.  I see where you're coming from with the third washroom idea, and if the school wants to do it that way then fine, but I have my doubts that transgender people are going to be huge fans of that idea. Do we really have the right to feel completely comfortable in the washrooms at school or out in public? I don't think we do. Plenty of people don't like sharing a washroom with gays. Plenty of fathers don't like gay men in the washroom with their young sons.

As far as hidden cameras in public washrooms go, it's already extremely easy to plant one of those. I don't really see that as much more of a concern than it already is.

The thing is, though, they ARE different.  Current restrooms are for "men" or "women".  A transgender person will openly tell you that they don't fit into the "gender norm", but that's what the restrooms were made for, the "gender norm".  The "men's room" is actually designed with penises in mind.  The "ladies room" is actually designed with "no" penises in mind.  Regardless what you call them, there can be no question that the intention of current public restrooms is "people with penises" and "people with vaginas".  After a sex change the person actually becomes a "person with a penis" or a "person with a vagina", which actually changes which restroom is appropriate for them.

I'm all for gay and transgender rights.  But if they suddenly had the "right" to use any bathroom they wanted, that would piss me off.  I would be less sympathetic to them as I would see it as special treatment, which it very much is.  I don't know if you've ever seen the ladies room vs the men's room in a given place, but I would DEFINITELY be more "comfortable" in most ladies rooms over most men's rooms.  They're cleaner, they smell better and they're more private.  At the fair grounds in my town there is literally a 10ft long trough against one wall in place of urinals.  That is VERY uncomfortable to use.  There are no dividers, we just all stand next to each other pissing in a long sink.  I am EXTREMELY uncomfortable in that restroom.  So I don't use it unless I absolutely have to.

Do I not have the "right" to be "comfortable" in the restroom because I'm not transgender?  Judging by what you said above, "Do we really have the right to feel completely comfortable in the washrooms at school or out in public? I don't think we do," you do not think I have that right and do not think I am deserving of that right.  If I don't like it I can just use the handicap restroom or wait until the restroom is perfectly clear.  But if SHE doesn't like it, NOW we all have to make special accommodations to make her comfortable?  Why is she deserving of a right I am not deserving of?  What logic is there behind that?  Because she's at a much greater risk of being attacked in the restroom?  Yes, that's definitely a problem.  And you know what, black people are more likely to be shot by other black people, statistically.  So to fix this, transgender people can use whatever restroom they want, and black people can't own guns.  I realize the comparison is a little ridiculous but it was intended to make the point that you can't go overboard with rights or restrictions to make a given populous safer.  Yes, it would make them safer (potentially, such a claim is actually speculation), but that's not an excuse for rights violations.

The bottom line, I'm for the rights of gays and transgender people, but I'm for "equal" rights, not "more" rights or "special" rights.  If you grant them what would be perceived as (and in this case, actually WOULD be) "special" rights, it's not going to make things better.  It's actually going to do the exact same thing as Jannabear's overactive temper, polarize people against them, make people not WANT to see their position and fuel the hatred for a populace only just now emerging from being one of the most hated in the country.

And you do realize that by your argument, that their safety is the biggest concern, transgender people SHOULD NOT get to decide which bathroom they are more comfortable in, they should be forced to use the safer one.

Quote from: widdershinsI don't know if you've ever seen the ladies room vs the men's room in a given place, but I would DEFINITELY be more "comfortable" in most ladies rooms over most men's rooms.  They're cleaner, they smell better

As a former daytime janitor, I call bullshit. Women make a stink like no man ever could.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on February 13, 2016, 10:51:55 AM
As a former daytime janitor, I call bullshit. Women make a stink like no man ever could.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).

Seconded. My general rule of thumb for retail restrooms: the woman's restroom is 1.5 or more times dirtier than the men's.

I look forward to the day when liberals start talking exclusively about human rights. We now have race rights, sexual rights, disability rights, and religious rights. I am quite sure I am missing some groups with that list...

Only when the left realizes that these are all a subset of human rights can the world truly be progressive.  When we started legislating groups who have specific rights, we lost the battle.

All of this is, of course, just my opinion.

Quote from: GreatLife on February 13, 2016, 12:43:04 PM
I look forward to the day when liberals start talking exclusively about human rights. We now have race rights, sexual rights, disability rights, and religious rights. I am quite sure I am missing some groups with that list...

Only when the left realizes that these are all a subset of human rights can the world truly be progressive.  When we started legislating groups who have specific rights, we lost the battle.

All of this is, of course, just my opinion.

I agree. Identity politics has become a divisive cancer, we need get rid of them or tone them way down and let individuals speak for themselves not pretend they speak for millions just because they share body parts or skin color.

Quote from: GreatLife on February 13, 2016, 12:43:04 PM
I look forward to the day when liberals start talking exclusively about human rights. We now have race rights, sexual rights, disability rights, and religious rights. I am quite sure I am missing some groups with that list...

Only when the left realizes that these are all a subset of human rights can the world truly be progressive.  When we started legislating groups who have specific rights, we lost the battle.

All of this is, of course, just my opinion.

This is a necessary -actually crucial- phase and highly likely will go for a long time. "Human Rights" is VERY YOUNG.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on February 13, 2016, 10:51:55 AM
As a former daytime janitor, I call bullshit. Women make a stink like no man ever could.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).

Maybe things are different where you are, but that is definitely not how it is in any restrooms I've ever seen.  The ladies room is generally cleaner and better maintained in my experience.  And my wife has worked at a few restaurants and she says the same thing.  Personal experience doesn't mean shit overall, of course, but that's my personal experience and my wife's.  Ladies definitely don't piss against the wall next to the toilet, which my wife used to see regularly in one men's room she used to clean.  She's also seen shit smeared on the walls in the men's room, but not the ladies.

Quote from: widdershins on February 15, 2016, 12:36:49 PM
Maybe things are different where you are, but that is definitely not how it is in any restrooms I've ever seen.  The ladies room is generally cleaner and better maintained in my experience.

I was a janitor at a (mainly) woman's work place a long time ago...  the women's restroom was spotless and the men's was always disgusting.  Though I didn't like emptying the trash in there...  But that is anecdotal at best...

An embarrassing (and related) story...
I was at a dinner with friends at a fancy restaurant - was not feeling good.  Decided that I needed to use the bathroom due to diarrhea.

So I hurriedly dismissed myself and went into the bathroom as quickly as possible.  To keep the story respectable... the bathroom was empty and I unloaded. I had waited too long and the results can be disastrous at these times...

Just after this event, I hear the door open.  My thought - those guys are going to appreciate the smells that were just released.

When all of a sudden I hear two women's voices... What the hell are they doing in my bathroom... ?

It turns out in my rush I had gone into the wrong bathroom.  The ladies were complaining about me... and I couldn't respond for fear of being called a creep.  They thought I was embarrassed or just rude...

I waited for the coast to clear... but of course met a woman coming in as I was leaving.

So in that particular instance, the women's restroom was undoubtedly left in worse condition by a man...

@GreatLife- you know what, shit happens.

And right here is exactly why the the "rights", as people are asking for them here, aren't going to work.

We need to devise a test! I got it! We tie a block round their neck and toss them in the ocean, if they die they were innocent and god took them, if they live they're guilty and we prosecute the mother fuckers!

Quote from: aitm on February 18, 2016, 05:29:44 PM
We need to devise a test! I got it! We tie a block round their neck and toss them in the ocean, if they die they were innocent and god took them, if they live they're guilty and we prosecute the mother fuckers!

I thinking if they live, meaning they're guilty, they probably deserve to be drowned, the asshats.