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I'm Catholic, let me have it!

Started by Vercingetorix, March 23, 2014, 01:59:47 PM

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AllPurposeAtheist

At times? You mean from the day the church was founded to now? It's the ALL TIME errant champion.
All hail my new signature!

Admit it. You're secretly green with envy.

Plu

QuoteAll this is merely why I'm Catholic, i.e. my geography, parent (not "parents" in the plural form) and my inability to find truth comparable to that which I find in Catholicism in any other religion.

Of course you're unable to find truth comparable to that equal to Catholicism anywhere. You were taught the "truth" of Catholicism when you were a child, with a mind programmed to accept anything adults told you as true. Hell, you probably believed Santa Clause and the Easterbunny were real back then as well.
But you're looking at the other holy books through the eyes of an adult, and they don't make sense. The only thing that makes your religion different from the others is that you assessed it's truth value back when "the moon is made of cheese" would be believed without question, and you've had so much social reinforcement that you assessed it correctly that it's been grafted permanently into your brain that catholicism is true.
Lacking that early reinforcement, you can't see other religions with the same eyes, because you no longer possess that child-like brain that would accept the religion as true without thinking about it, nor do you have the social reinforcement to tell you that it's true, which means you miss the only two reasons you became catholic in the first place when assessing the value of these other religions.

Honestly, we shouldn't make fun of you (or other theists), we should pity you for being duped at such a young age and being forced to live with that for probably the rest of your life.

Vercingetorix

@allpurposeatheist, Perpetually errant by nature of it's most basic teachings? Chronically errant by it's insistence that a man walked on water, etc? If the Church is errant at all, perhaps it is because it is run by humans. We have exactly zero human administered institutions old enough to compare it to, perhaps the Church is spectacularly inerrant. Failure or disappointment in one trial of a scientific study, does not necessitate a complete abandonment of the theory one seeks to prove by such trials. From what you related about your experience with the Catholic Church, Can I surmise that you did not apply the scientific method to whether or not you should continue the Catholic tradition of your family?

PickelledEggs

Sometimes I wonder if people that believe in the Catholic Church or any religion has ever looked around in the world they live in with a fresh eye. Tell me, op. Have you ever doubted your faith? What is that like? It's been such a long time that I forgot what it's like to question an idea I was so invested in and I have forgotten.

Sent from Planet X


Vercingetorix

@plu, I believe that the Earth orbits the Sun only because it was permanently instilled in me at a young age. I am neither trained nor mathematically inclined enough to find for myself the proof that the Earth orbits the Sun. Rather I choose to believe that the proof exists.

Plu

At least you're willing to admit that you only believe it because you were indoctrinated. Now you'll only have to accept that this means all the "proof" you heard is worthless because you haven't verified it and leave us alone, and everyone will be happier.

Also, I took 5 minutes a while ago to look into the story about the earth rotating around the sun and learned that it's actually not the case. But since you don't care about learning things apparently, I'm not going to explain further.

Vercingetorix

Quote from: PickelledEggs on March 24, 2014, 04:04:44 AM
Sometimes I wonder if people that believe in the Catholic Church or any religion has ever looked around in the world they live in with a fresh eye. Tell me, op. Have you ever doubted your faith? What is that like? It's been such a long time that I forgot what it's like to question an idea I was so invested in and I have forgotten.

Sent from Planet X

I'm a member (however briefly is yet to be determined) of an atheist forum! I have doubted my faith much more than I am brave enough to admit. I must admit that it is scary, what I am most afraid of is missing my faith, should I lose it.

PickelledEggs

Quote from: Vercingetorix on March 24, 2014, 04:14:09 AM


I'm a member (however briefly is yet to be determined) of an atheist forum! I have doubted my faith much more than I am brave enough to admit. I must admit that it is scary, what I am most afraid of is missing my faith, should I lose it.
It's it really that hard to not doubt your faith?  I was born and raised in NJ, so there really isn't many people that are hard core believers like in other parts of the country. What makes you doubt your beliefs?

Sent from Planet X


Vercingetorix

Quote from: Plu on March 24, 2014, 04:11:25 AM
At least you're willing to admit that you only believe it because you were indoctrinated. Now you'll only have to accept that this means all the "proof" you heard is worthless because you haven't verified it and leave us alone, and everyone will be happier.

Also, I took 5 minutes a while ago to look into the story about the earth rotating around the sun and learned that it's actually not the case. But since you don't care about learning things apparently, I'm not going to explain further.

...What is not the case? The planets do orbit, or revolve around the Sun do they not? I don't think I was mistaken, please do elaborate.

Plu

Object revolve around a common center of gravity, and any notions of "X orbits Y" are man-made, objects simply rotate around each other. Due to the massive size of the sun compared to tiny little earth, the common center of gravity is somewhere inside of the sun, so it's almost like the earth rotates the sun, but that kind of explanation wouldn't work when you're dealing with two objects of almost the same size rotating each other. (Like binary stars)

Also the whole idea that the earth rotates around the sun is just because the solar system is easier to understand and draw if you put the sun at the center of it. There's also a model where the earth is back at the center, designed in the 16th century:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tychonic_system

For observations of the solar system, it works as well as the one we use today. Only when you get to really distant stars does it start breaking down, but they didn't know about those back then.

That's about as much as I can share without having to look things up myself. It was more to point out that just because you're told something when you're young doesn't mean it's correct or that you can't learn more about those very subjects if you look at them with adult eyes than useful knowledge.

Vercingetorix

Quote from: PickelledEggs on March 24, 2014, 04:17:55 AM
It's it really that hard to not doubt your faith?  I was born and raised in NJ, so there really isn't many people that are hard core believers like in other parts of the country. What makes you doubt your beliefs?

Sent from Planet X

I don't know that it is hard to not doubt faith... I just know that I have doubted, and on occasion do doubt. Maybe a better formed faith is harder to doubt? I did not come of age in the pious middle ages, I have only grown up in the last 25 years, if I was brainwashed into believing that God exists then I have been many times over brainwashed that the existence of God is unnecessary. I was raised without religion in schools, and in a liberal democracy that insists if God exists he must at least be ignored most of the time. That is why I doubt.

PickelledEggs

So what are your feelings on your god? Is he necessary? Why? Or why not? (depending on your answer)

Sent from Planet X


Vercingetorix

Quote from: Plu on March 24, 2014, 04:32:46 AM
Object revolve around a common center of gravity, and any notions of "X orbits Y" are man-made, objects simply rotate around each other. Due to the massive size of the sun compared to tiny little earth, the common center of gravity is somewhere inside of the sun, so it's almost like the earth rotates the sun, but that kind of explanation wouldn't work when you're dealing with two objects of almost the same size rotating each other. (Like binary stars)

Also the whole idea that the earth rotates around the sun is just because the solar system is easier to understand and draw if you put the sun at the center of it. There's also a model where the earth is back at the center, designed in the 16th century:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tychonic_system

For observations of the solar system, it works as well as the one we use today. Only when you get to really distant stars does it start breaking down, but they didn't know about those back then.

That's about as much as I can share without having to look things up myself. It was more to point out that just because you're told something when you're young doesn't mean it's correct or that you can't learn more about those very subjects if you look at them with adult eyes than useful knowledge.

Ok, we are on the same page. I did apply the words "orbit," and "rotate" to an idea much more complicated. Does the common center of gravity two objects share approach an equidistant point as the objects become closer in size? I think that's what you were alluding to when you mentioned a binary system.

Vercingetorix

Quote from: PickelledEggs on March 24, 2014, 04:38:11 AM
So what are your feelings on your god? Is he necessary? Why? Or why not? (depending on your answer)

Sent from Planet X

Aye there's the rub. I believe that God is necessary based on tradition, and testimony that I believe is inspired by evidence. 

Plu

It's based on mass, not size, but otherwise yes.

Well, you already understand the idea that what people tell you at a young age is usually a simplification of the truth or an outright lie, the intelligence to look for new answers. Now if you also understand that people who tell you where the rabbit hole ends are people who have a vested interest in keeping you from digging deeper, you'll have all the tools needed to dig into the way the world works and figure out for yourself what the added value of your faith to your life is.

If you're afraid of losing your faith, there's probably something wrong somewhere that your faith is trying to keep at bay. You can either rely on your faith to keep that thing away from you, or you can let it free, fight it, and maybe defeat it and come out better for it, but that's up to you I guess.

QuoteI believe that God is necessary based on tradition

Tradition is never an argument. Either there's a reason underlying the tradition that is the actual argument, or you're perpetuating nonsense for the sake of perpetuating nonsense.