Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 22, 2025, 07:25:30 AMGee, our very own red letter Babble.

Yeah, I was waiting for all the nonsense. She worked really hard on all that apologetics. People whose "science books" talk about unicorns and dragons, or a person survived in the belly of a whale and then a world-wide flood killed everyone and everything but one incestuous family. People who fake stigmata with never-healing acid and who protect pedophiles.

They even award themselves fake degrees from fake universities that try to mirror real academia. However, if she thinks any of this utter nonsense will ever sway a thinking person for a minute, she is badly mistaken.

Somehow, we can validate thousands of ancient artifacts way older than the 1st century but with "the shroud" we have all sorts of issues. Cultists have been selling books and other merch to other cultists for decades. I think I need to order some "holy water". So stupid.

Actually, I do use google. It's amazing this satanic google conspiracy, because the scientific consensus is that there is overwhelming of proof for Maria's visions and Jesus and god and dead people rising up and faith healing. It's all there, we just need to believe hard enough. What is wrong with me? Satan, go away! It's all your fault.

Russia bombed Kharkiv, hitting a kindergarten.  They also attacked civilians in Kyiv.

You'd think this sort of thing would make any sort of peace overtures pointless.

Trump-Putin meeting cancelled

The White House says that a "productive call" between Rubio and Lavrov made it unnecessary, but Russia continues to reject ceasefire and continues to demand additional Ukrainian land beyond what they've already stolen, so it's curious what sort of progress would've been made.  But until I see evidence to the contrary, the smart default stance is that it's just more hot air coming out of the White House, a way to assuage the public that the White House is hard at work and making progress even when there really hasn't been any.  Because if there was, they would be able to give specifics.

One theory is that Poland's vow to arrest Putin caused Putin to cancel, which Trump had to accept.

Putin isn't the only one to let personal business affect his meetings, as Trump reportedly went on and on with Zelenskyy about the peace prize instead of important matters.  Apparently, that was his top priority in the Ukraine peace efforts.  Sad and pathetic.

Quote from: Nobody on October 21, 2025, 09:09:52 PMI got a buddy who's allergic to nuts, so every time he scratches his crotch he breaks out in hives.

He should either wash his  hands or get somebody else to scratch the scrot.

Gee, our very own red letter Babble.

Quote from: Cassia on October 20, 2025, 12:41:59 AMInstead of relying on mystics, I prefer the conclusions of the majority of secular biblical scholars and historians with advanced degrees who hold the view that the census described in the Gospel is a literary device and not a historical event. The account is considered historically problematic because it appears to have been fabricated to get Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem to fulfill prophecy. [Note: this is an AI overview on Google.]
This consensus is based on several factors:

Contradictory dates: The Gospel of Luke dates Jesus's birth to the reign of Herod the Great (who died in 4 B.C.E.) but also links it to a census carried out by Quirinius. The census under Quirinius is a documented historical event, but it occurred in 6 C.E.—a full decade after Herod's death. [Note: this is an AI overview on Google.]

Roman census practice: Roman censuses for tax purposes counted people where they lived, not their ancestral hometowns. Forcing subjects to travel long distances to an ancestral city would have been administratively chaotic, economically disruptive, and served no logical Roman purpose. [Note: this is an AI overview on Google.]

Conflicting gospel accounts: The Gospel of Matthew has Jesus's family already living in Bethlehem when he was born, and it uses other plot devices to explain the move to Nazareth later. The conflicting birth narratives of Matthew and Luke are imposible to reconcile. [Note: this is an AI overview on Google.]

Theological motivation: Luke's gospel uses the census to temporarily move Joseph and Mary from their home in Nazareth to Bethlehem. Secular scholars argue this was done to align with the prophecy in Micah 5:2, which states the messiah will come from Bethlehem. [Note: this is an AI overview on Google.]

Firstly, do you have the names of the supposed "majority of secular biblical scholars and historians with advanced degrees"? Can you cite their analyses and conclusions. Or, is AI your source?

Secondly, on January 8th, 1945, Maria Valtorta received a vision of a scene from Jesus's life, and at one point in it, she saw and heard Him explain the night of His birth to the apostles Simon and John. Below is an excerpt:

Quote...as the Mother was near Her time to have Her Child, a decree was issued by the imperial delegate Publius Sulpicius Quirinus on instructions from Caesar Augustus, when [Gaius] Sentius Saturninus was governor of Palestine (c. Lk. 2:1-2). The decree stated that a census had to be taken of all the people of the Empire. Those who were not slaves were to go to their places of origin (c. Lk. 2:3), and register in the official rolls of the Empire. Joseph, the spouse of the Mother, was of the line of David and the Mother was also of David's line. In compliance with the decree, they left Nazareth and came to Bethlehem, the cradle of the royal family. The weather was severe...» Jesus continues the story and it all ends thus. (c. Lk. 2:4-5). (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. 1)

This is suppprted by the following:

Quote[W. M.]Ramsay, however, on the basis of two inscriptions concludes that Quirinius did exercise a governorship of Syria about 8-6 B.C.33 He suggests that both Quirinius and Sentius Saturninus (9-6 B.C.) were governors for Augustus in Syria at the same time with different duties.34 Quirinius would have commanded the legions and military resources of Syria, while Sentius attended to politics.

Stauffer suggests that during this general time Quirinius was in charge of all campaigns and other affairs in the east.35 In Syria he sometimes governed alone and sometimes aided by an imperial provincial governor. Says Stauffer:

'It is evident that this division of power was in the nature of things, and Sulpicius Quirinius must be reckoned not only among the series of Syrian provincial governors, but also—and this chiefly—in the proud list of the Roman commanders-in-chief of the Orient. In this capacity he governed the Roman Orient like a vice-emperor from 12 B.C. to A.D. 16, with only a brief interruption (Gaius Caesar). In this capacity he carried out the prima descript in the East. Thus, he was in a position to begin the work of the census in the days of King Herod, to continue it without regard to the temporary occupancy or vacancy of the post of Syrian governor, and finally to bring it to a peaceful conclusion.'36

There is some support from the statement of Tertullian that "at this very time a census had been taken in Judea by Sentius Saturninus which might have satisfied their inquiry respecting the family and descent of Christ."37 Instead of being a mistake on Tertulliano part, it may indicate that Quirinius and Saturninus were governing Syria at the same time.

33Ramsay, Bearing 292-300.
34Ibid., p. 293.
35E. Stauffer, Jesus and His Story (New York: Knopf, 1960) 29.
36Ibid., p. 30.
37Tertullian Adv. Marc. 4.19.

(The Census and Quirinius: Luke 2:2)

Thirdly, on January 28th, 1944, Maria Valtorta received a vision of a scene from Jesus's mortal life, specifically a conversation between Him and Rabbi Hillel. Below is an excerpt:

QuoteJesus: It is true that Caesar dominates us, but the world and Palestine were in such peace when the seventy weeks expired (c. Dan. 9:24-27), that it was possible for Caesar to order the census in his dominions. Had there been wars in the Empire and riots in Palestine, he would not have been able to do so. As that time was completed, so the other period of sixty-two weeks plus one from the completion of the Temple is also being completed, so that the Messiah may be anointed and the remainder of the prophecy may come true for the people who did not want Him. Can you doubt that? Do you not remember the star that was seen by the Wise Men from the East and stopped over the sky in Bethlehem of Judah and that the prophecies and the visions, from Jacob onwards, indicate that place as the one destined as the birthplace of the Messiah, son of the son of Jacob's son, through David who was from Bethlehem? Do you not remember Balaam? "A Star will be born of Jacob". The Wise Men from the East, whose purity and faith opened their eyes and ears, saw the Star and understood its Name: "Messiah", and they came to worship the Light which had descended into the world. (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. 1)

Joseph and Mary left their home in Nazareth to go to Bethlehem to register (c. Lk. 2:4-5). When they arrived at Bethlehem, there was no room at any inn, but they found an animal stall just outside the town, where Mary gave birth to Jesus, and laid Him in a manger (c. Mic.5:2, Matt. 2:1, Lk. 2:6-7;11). An angel announced to shepherds in a nearby field the birth of the Incarnation of God, the Messiah, and told them they would find Him in Bethlehem in a manger. And, they did (c. Lk. 2:8-12;16).

As for the Wise Men, by the time they arrived at Bethlehem after seeing the Star and beginning their journey there, almost a year had passed since Jesus's birth, and he, Joseph, and Mary were now living in a house within the town of Bethlehem (c. Matt. 2:2;8-9;11), no longer in an animal stall just outside of it. According to Maria Valtorta, who received visions of scenes of Jesus's early life, on the night of the adoration of the shepherds, one of the shepherds, Elias, invited Joseph, Mary, and Jesus to live with him and his wife, Anne, in Bethlehem. And, that is the house where they were visited by the Wise Men, and continued to live until their flight to Egypt, remaining there until King Herod the Great's death, to which they then returned to their home in Nazareth (c. Hos. 11:1, Is. 11:1, Jer. 31:15, Matt. 2:13-15;19-20;23, The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. 1).

Fourthly, following Josephus' texts, most historians place Herod's death in 4 B.C. Jean Aulagnier, in his book The Diary of Jesus, pointed out that a small adding mistake was originally made and was repeated by everybody else. And, Prof. Van Zandt wrote (using the Gregorian calendar), "The astronomy of the Valtorta account places Jesus' birth in December, —0001 [1 B.C.], the death of Herod in the spring of 0002 [2 AD], and Good Friday on April 21, 0034 [34 AD].

Quote from: Cassia on October 20, 2025, 12:41:59 AMThat painting is obviously a repro of the faked shroud [baseless assertion] and not at all like the earliest depictions from artists who were closest to the time period and oral tradition. And that is not skin of "alabaster", lol. So, Maria was back-tracking on what her angels told her as she started to realize her mistake [baseless assertion].

What good are baseless assertions?

Quote from: Cassia on October 20, 2025, 12:41:59 AMAs usual, zero evidence support Maria's or any supernatural "revelation" [baseless assertion] [...]

But, that's false, because there's the astronomical and meteorological analysis by Prof. Emilio Matricciani and Dr. Liberato De Caro of Maria Valtorta's Work, and their findings:

QuoteMaria Valtorta's narration seems to be not a fruit of her fantasy. In fact, thanks to a complex and rigorous astronomical analysis of the narrative elements present in her writings, it has been possible to determine a precise chronology of every event of Jesus' life that she tells us, even if no explicit calendar date is reported in her writings.

QuoteIt seems that she has written down observations and facts really happened at the time of Jesus' life, as a real witness of them would have done. The question arises, unsolved from a point of view exclusively rational, how all this is possible because what Maria Valtorta writes down cannot, in any way, be traced back to her fantasy or to her astronomical and meteorological knowledge.

...and the analysis and findings by Prof. Leo A. Brodeur, M.A., Lèsl., Ph.D., H.Sc.D:

Quote[For those who state] that Valtorta's writings were not supernatural in origin, did they investigate to see what kind of person Valtorta was? Had they done so, they would have quickly found that she was a good, earnest, devout Catholic, an invalid who had a deep prayer life and lived according to high moral standards. They would have found that she often claimed, explicitly, in no uncertain terms that she was having visions and dictations from Jesus and other heavenly persons, and that she fully realized the gravity of her claims.

Now had her visions and dictations been mere literary forms of her own deliberate invention, she would have been an unscrupulous liar; but this hypothesis is excluded by the testimonies of all the priests and nuns and lay people who knew her.

Or what if Valtorta had been insane and had imagined all those visions and dictations and mistaken them for real mystical occurrences (and thus escaped the accusation of being a hoaxer)? This hypothesis of lunacy falls flat in the light of her daily living during the years that she wrote.

...and the analysis and findings by historian Jean Aulagnier:

QuoteTherefore, there is no explanation for the archeological and geographical accuracy of her writings except an intervention from the beyond. These factors exclude the possibility of a hoax or a mental disorder.

QuoteThere is no way that Maria Valtorta could have composed thousands of pages of fiction that would be so historically accurate.

...and the analysis and findings by theologian David J. Webster, who observed, for example, that Maria Valtorta named at least nine unknown ancient towns and villages that were not discovered until after her death.

You haven't presented anything that refutes those findings.

Quote from: Cassia on October 20, 2025, 12:41:59 AMA 3D analysis comparing the way fabric falls on a human body versus a low-relief sculpture shows that the Shroud of Turin was not based on a real person. The error is that a real body would have caused a distorted imprint known as the "Agamemnon Mask Effect". [excerpt from https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/shroud-of-turin-wasnt-laid-on-jesus-body-but-rather-a-sculpture-modeling-study-suggests]

Studying the fabric also revealed that the textile has a complex structure that would have required a sufficiently advanced loom, i.e. a horizontal treadle loom with four shafts, introduced by the Flemish in the 13th century, while the archaeological record provides clear evidence that the Shroud is completely different from all the cloths woven in ancient Palestine. That would also agree with the carbon dating conclusion that cloth of the Shroud can be assigned with a confidence of 95 percent accuracy to a date between AD 1260 and 1390. [excerpt from https://michaelshermer.substack.com/p/the-shroud-of-turin]

Firstly, your own source, Moraes, said, "I don't know how the image was printed or transferred", regarding the Shroud of Turin (August 2025 article in Artnet News).

Secondly, the "Agamemnon Mask Effect" fails to consider existing scientific findings, ignores evidence such as the absence of paint, the presence of blood patterns predating the image, and the lack of pigments.

Thirdly, "The linen cloth of the Shroud of Turin does not display any weaving or sewing techniques which would speak against its origin as a high quality product of the textile workers of the first century" (Mechthild Flury-Lemberg, Interview with Mechthild Flury-Lemberg). And, "In my opinion the Shroud is not a medieval fake. The parallels I have found indicate that it could have existed at the same time as Jesus Christ and in what is now Israel".  Whilst the Masada stitch is strong evidence for a first century cloth, the side strip in itself points to a practical purpose so why would a medieval artist cut this from the same cloth and then sew it back on? That doesn't make any sense, nor does the decision to sew it using an ancient Jewish stitch unknown in medieval Europe. Schwalbe and Rogers studied the side strip using X Ray analysis and found that it had indeed been cut from the same cloth (Mechthild Flury-Lemberg, see Physics and Chemistry of the Shroud of Turin pp 39-40).

Fourthly, the book entitled The Holy Shroud and the Visions of Maria Valtorta is a scholarly work written by a Shroud of Turin expert which describes the detailed findings on the miraculous Shroud of Turin by modern scientific studies and its exact agreement with the visions of Christ's Passion, Death, and Burial in the writings of Maria Valtorta.

Quote from: Nobody on October 21, 2025, 07:40:08 PMEmanuel Kunt?

With a name like Emanuel it's pretty much a sure bet.

I got a buddy who's allergic to nuts, so every time he scratches his crotch he breaks out in hives.

Emanuel Kunt?

On it!

In it?

Whatevers.