To everyone who says "I'm voting for hillary because bernie has no chance"
You're a moron and a coward.
You're a moron because, bernie's poll numbers have been rising, and hillary's falling, and there's really no point in not fighting for your candidate, you're a moron because, in polls, bernie smashes the republican candidates in a general election.
You're a coward because you don't stand up for the candidate who you think is more qualified and intelligent.
Bernie might have a chance considering he just smashed hillary in a debate recently.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-hanley/bernie-sanders-sweeps-onl_b_8847040.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/01/09/as-clinton-says-only-she-can-win-sanders-points-to-the-polls/
Also bernie's followers are much more serious then hillary's, they seem to be much more fervent, much more dedicated, now that doesn't mean they look at him unskeptically, but it does mean that they are welling to go the extra mile to support him, because they realize he is the best out of all the candidates, and can drastically improve the quality of life in the us.
Same goes with any other candidate, just vote for who you want, don't vote for a certain candidate simply because they have a better chance at winning, if you go in favor of someone who is unjust in your eyes, then you in turn, are unjust.
In the primaries you fall in love. (Vote for who you want.)
In the general election you fall in line. (Vote for the Democrat.)
Quote from: Jannabear on January 09, 2016, 10:26:13 PMTo everyone who says "I'm voting for hillary because bernie has no chance"
Does anyone actually say that? If so, they're morons.
Democrats should vote for who they want in the primaries, but during the general election, there's only going to be one Democratic candidate on the ballot. If your guy (or gal) loses, then you have to pick someone else. I'm not 100%, but I'm pretty sure that's what people typically mean when they say that they'll reluctantly support Hillary.
I've clearly explained why voting for Hillary is so important in this post:
http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=8454.msg1109051#msg1109051''
In a general election, electoral votes decide who wins, not popular votes, and only a few states are swing states. Hillary has a greater chance to win those than Bernie.
All the candidates seem immature. But then, so do the world's leaders.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on January 09, 2016, 11:24:41 PM
I've clearly explained why voting for Hillary is so important in this post:
http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=8454.msg1109051#msg1109051''
In a general election, electoral votes decide who wins, not popular votes, and only a few states are swing states. Hillary has a greater chance to win those than Bernie.
I honestly don't care at this point, this country is fucked if we don't get someone like bernie as our president, so even if the odds of him winning are 10 percent I'm in favor of him, I'm fucking sick and tired of pseudo liberals and crazy right wing psychopaths being given power, it's sickening.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on January 09, 2016, 11:24:41 PM
I've clearly explained why voting for Hillary is so important in this post:
http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=8454.msg1109051#msg1109051''
In a general election, electoral votes decide who wins, not popular votes, and only a few states are swing states. Hillary has a greater chance to win those than Bernie.
And I think you're greatly underestimating his influence.
To be fair, he is trailing in the polls (http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-national-democratic-primary) and he's less likely to win states (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statewide_opinion_polling_for_the_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries,_2016) than Clinton. It's too early to call, but if there isn't a major change, Clinton will be the nominee.
That said, I of course encourage everyone to vote for whoever they prefer in the primaries. Just don't go skip the general election when your candidate doesn't win the primary.
Quote from: Hydra009 on January 10, 2016, 12:20:02 AM
To be fair, he is trailing in the polls (http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-national-democratic-primary) and he's less likely to win states (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statewide_opinion_polling_for_the_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries,_2016) than Clinton. It's too early to call, but if there isn't a major change, Clinton will be the nominee.
That said, I of course encourage everyone to vote for whoever they prefer in the primaries. Just don't go skip the general election when your candidate doesn't win the primary.
I've heard he's doing better at this point then obama was at this point apparently, I may be wrong though.
Quote from: Jannabear on January 09, 2016, 11:55:00 PM
I honestly don't care at this point, this country is fucked if we don't get someone like bernie as our president, so even if the odds of him winning are 10 percent I'm in favor of him, I'm fucking sick and tired of pseudo liberals and crazy right wing psychopaths being given power, it's sickening.
If the country is fucked up, it'll be a lot worse if the next president is Republican, whoever that might be. Barring some major catastrophe, Hillary has better chance to win than Bernie . And not voting in the general election just because your favorite candidate lost the nomination only favors the Republicans. Stats of previous elections show that the lower the voting participation in elections, the greater chance the Republicans stand to win.
Quote from: Jannabear on January 10, 2016, 01:37:38 AM
I've heard he's doing better at this point then obama was at this point apparently, I may be wrong though.
That is true (http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/remember-obamas-historic-2008-presidential-run-bernie-sanders-so-far-exceeding-it). Though time will tell if this election will unfold like that one did.
The candidates aren't sane people. They're sociopaths. They're not even good at faking it, yet the population can barely tell. Our founding fathers stated that the people should be vigilant for tyranny, but we have been dumbed down while the den of thieves has been practicing their art.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozQe72pJOdQ
There are lies and then there are lies. Lies because you want to make yourself look good (Hillary and landing at a Bosnia trip) are despicable, but lies that result in thousands of innocent death (Bush and the WMD's to invade Iraq) are lies on a totally different scale.
I wondered if I'd get a comment about the other side being worse. Why settle?
Quote from: gentle_dissident on January 10, 2016, 08:12:55 AM
I wondered if I'd get a comment about the other side being worse. Why settle?
If principles matter, don't vote for the lesser of two weavels. Vote third party. Voting for the candidate most likely to win ... is triangulating. The Clintons have mastered that as a policy selector. Hillary isn't innocent. After Libya, she is just as guilty as Shrub ... though she was Sec of State, not President. Obama is simply a less capable version of Shrub ... but they are both war criminals. And I don't mean Bengazi ... the whole invasion of Libya was also bogus as now shown by Hillary emails ... though we had more inside help in Libya (rebels) than in Iraq. In the invasion of Iraq, the COTW had to do much more, and the Iraqi Army mostly assisted by "standing down". So the two don't quite compare ... but apparently in Libya we had France pushing us ... and in Iraq we had GB pushing us (both times).
Jannabear ... I know that you are excited, and politics is divisive ... but you will attract more bees if you turn down the heat.
Quote from: Jannabear on January 09, 2016, 11:55:00 PM
I honestly don't care at this point, this country is fucked if we don't get someone like bernie as our president, so even if the odds of him winning are 10 percent I'm in favor of him, I'm fucking sick and tired of pseudo liberals and crazy right wing psychopaths being given power, it's sickening.
You honestly don't care? Really?
I don't like any of them.
Trump is a lunatic, and his followers are essentially screaming hail the fuhrer at his rallies. In addition, he does not have what it takes to be a president that is worthy of this country. Insane beliefs (or professed beliefs) aside, the man has experience in business and the skill simply doesn't translate over to government as well as people might think. He won't always be able to get what he wants, government functions on compromise. Trump strikes me as someone who has hardly ever been denied anything. People mistake this self-assurance as force of personality, but it isn't. Its just belligerence in the white house and thats never good for us.
Hillary cannot be trusted. Shes a chamelion wearing the skin of a slightly disapproving mother in law that you can never satisfy. I'm almost certain she has lied about important things that matter to people and I absolutely hate the kind of candidate she has allowed herself to become. Nothing but canned responses and turning with the tide. If america never has another president like her it will be too soon.
I don't hate Sanders as much as the other two because I don't know much about him. I know hes been accused of being an unabashed socialist. I don't think he can win, but more importantly I don't think he can accomplish any of his goals even if he does win.
So who do I vote for?
Quote from: josephpalazzo on January 10, 2016, 08:07:14 AM
There are lies and then there are lies. Lies because you want to make yourself look good (Hillary and landing at a Bosnia trip) are despicable, but lies that result in thousands of innocent death (Bush and the WMD's to invade Iraq) are lies on a totally different scale.
Hillary would have went to war with Iraq if she were President at the time, and you know it. She voted for the war and she is on tape saying Iraq is a good business opportunity.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on January 10, 2016, 11:15:21 AM
Hillary would have went to war with Iraq if she were President at the time, and you know it. She voted for the war and she is on tape saying Iraq is a good business opportunity.
Huh, no. Iraq 2 is a continuation of Iraq 1, which was unfinished business by Rumsfeld, Cheney and Colin Powell in 1991, as it was disrupted by Bush 1 losing unexpectedly the election in 1992. When Bush 2 came to power in 2000, these three got back into the game, and it was Iraq, Iraq from day 1 in Bush 2 administration. Now Hillary did vote for the war as a senator, and I think she knows it was a mistake, even though she's reluctant to acknowledge it. But would have initiated that war?!? No way.
Quote from: Nonsensei on January 10, 2016, 11:13:34 AMI don't hate Sanders as much as the other two because I don't know much about him. I know hes been accused of being an unabashed socialist. I don't think he can win, but more importantly I don't think he can accomplish any of his goals even if he does win.
He almost certainly wouldn't be able to get much accomplished. Congress's stonewalling during Obama's presidency would be twice as bad if Sanders takes office. But (hopefully) what it would do is set the agenda more towards wealth inequality and corporate malfeasance, laying the groundwork for future progress in that area. He would also reliably keep the US away from foreign entanglements, which is desirable at this time. And most importantly, he would shut out the Republicans from office for 4 years and perhaps appoint new Supreme Court members.
It's not ideal, but it's the best play for what is essentially a dead man's hand. Clinton's presidency probably wouldn't be drastically different, though it's difficult to gauge given her policy reversals. Imho, she wants to be president more than she wants to act as president, which could cause problems down the road.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on January 10, 2016, 12:52:57 PM
Huh, no. Iraq 2 is a continuation of Iraq 1, which was unfinished business by Rumsfeld, Cheney and Colin Powell in 1991, as it was disrupted by Bush 1 losing unexpectedly the election in 1992. When Bush 2 came to power in 2000, these three got back into the game, and it was Iraq, Iraq from day 1 in Bush 2 administration. Now Hillary did vote for the war as a senator, and I think she knows it was a mistake, even though she's reluctant to acknowledge it. But would have initiated that war?!? No way.
No way? Hillary has given people no reason to believe she's any different than Bush on foreign policy. Obama is the same as Bush, and Clinton's rhetoric concerning war is even worse than his. Clinton is talking about shooting down Russian planes for non-defensive reasons and you think she's above invading Iraq? The war in Iraq would have gone ahead with Clinton or Gore. The President doesn't get to just do whatever they want. The President has people to answer to. The President is not the only one setting the agenda. The people the President answers to wanted war in Iraq. The support was there for war. There was no way any President was going to let 9/11 go to waste and not go into Iraq. Look at Obama. He seemed anti-war, but got in and is a Bush clone on foreign policy.
If we don't get a socialist president quality of life for many americans is going to continue to be complete shit, no more of these pseudo liberals (obama) and retarded republicans (Every republican)
Why can't America have sane, mature, honest, and caring leaders? Is it because they would not reflect the citizenry?
Quote from: gentle_dissident on January 11, 2016, 11:59:02 AM
Why can't America have sane, mature, honest, and caring leaders? Is it because they would not reflect the citizenry?
You got it. Sheep dip, all the way down ;-)
Quote from: gentle_dissident on January 10, 2016, 07:59:52 AM
The candidates aren't sane people. They're sociopaths.
Isn't that a job requirement for politicians? I am serious, not just ranting. Anyone with scruples about lying in any level, wouldn't imagine to have a career of the sort.
How much of a chance a really honest person have in winning an election anywhere, esp. in somewhere like the USA. There is too much to exploit.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on January 10, 2016, 04:38:31 PM
No way? Hillary has given people no reason to believe she's any different than Bush on foreign policy. Obama is the same as Bush, and Clinton's rhetoric concerning war is even worse than his. Clinton is talking about shooting down Russian planes for non-defensive reasons and you think she's above invading Iraq? The war in Iraq would have gone ahead with Clinton or Gore. The President doesn't get to just do whatever they want. The President has people to answer to. The President is not the only one setting the agenda. The people the President answers to wanted war in Iraq. The support was there for war. There was no way any President was going to let 9/11 go to waste and not go into Iraq. Look at Obama. He seemed anti-war, but got in and is a Bush clone on foreign policy.
Supporting a war and initiating one are two different things. In regard to Obama: he retreated from both Iraq and Afghanistan. In Libya, he gave some support, and in Syria, after threatening, he backed away. I doubt it very much that Hillary, had she been president instead of Obama, would have done anything different.
Quote from: gentle_dissident on January 11, 2016, 11:59:02 AM
Why can't America have sane, mature, honest, and caring leaders? Is it because they would not reflect the citizenry?
This unfortunately seems to be true. I see so many vicious, uncaring posts from people I thought were decent. Too many sharings of Trump memes from people who should know better.
Quote from: Jannabear on January 09, 2016, 10:26:13 PM
You're a coward because you don't stand up for the candidate who you think is more qualified and intelligent.
On this we completely agree. I wouldn't go so far as to endorse Sanders and I wonder if some of the things he wants to do are even possible, but your sentiment is right on the money. I can handle my candidate not winning, I'm fine with that. What is more important to me is that I can be proud of my vote and back up my decision and not feel like I need a shower after returning from the polls. So far, I haven't heard an argument from anyone in the "lesser of two evils camp" that wasn't some form of "this is the way it is and that's why it needs to be that way", so I remain unconvinced that voting with conviction is the wrong course of action.
Quote from: gentle_dissident on January 11, 2016, 11:59:02 AM
Why can't America have sane, mature, honest, and caring leaders? Is it because they would not reflect the citizenry?
We currently have one.
Quote from: Mermaid on January 11, 2016, 06:24:32 PM
We currently have one.
Except the fact that he's pretty much the black version of bush and is a complete fucking pussy.
Quote from: Jannabear on January 11, 2016, 07:10:06 PM
Except the fact that he's pretty much the black version of bush and is a complete fucking pussy.
Yyyeah. If you say so.
Quote from: Mermaid on January 11, 2016, 07:20:44 PM
Yyyeah. If you say so.
Close a retarded military prison that unfairly imprisons people when he said he would?
Nope.
Put strict gun control into place?
Eventually, but it took him... Ages.
Help out the poor and struggling...
Obamacare is a halfassed version of what actually needs to be done.
Stand up for his political opinions regardless of who opposes him?
Fuck no.
Sounds like you like to obtain half the facts about an issue and then run with it.
Quote from: Jannabear on January 12, 2016, 05:54:11 AM
Close a retarded military prison that unfairly imprisons people when he said he would?
Nope.
Only because no governor of any state wanted to take those prisoners. What do you want? A complete release so that these people can go back and take arms against American civilians??
QuoteStand up for his political opinions regardless of who opposes him?
Fuck no.
A president cannot enact any law - that's Congress job. And with a Congress dominated by Republicans, most of then hell bent to make him fail, what do you expect??? There was/is gridlock not because of Obama.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on January 12, 2016, 08:03:52 AM
Only because no governor of any state wanted to take those prisoners. What do you want? A complete release so that these people can go back and take arms against American civilians??
-Nope, a trial, no one should be sent to a prison without a trial by jury, regardless of what they're accused of.
A president cannot enact any law - that's Congress job. And with a Congress dominated by Republicans, most of then hell bent to make him fail, what do you expect??? There was/is gridlock not because of Obama.
-I guess I can see why he would have a hard time getting anything done, but it didn't even seem like he stood fervent on any of his liberal positions.
I'll just leave these here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DW6IKG9d_8
At least the ACA has created jobs. My company now has to keep hours under 35, so it won't have to pay insurance. It has to hire more people to fill the gaps. I'm now making less money and and am being forced to pay for insurance that I couldn't afford before. I can't even afford the deductible. This doesn't feel like socialism to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLFmGu57jLI
Quote from: Mermaid on January 11, 2016, 06:24:32 PM
We currently have one.
So true. Obama arming Al Qaeda and using them as his ground troops means you have less American troops on the ground, and therefore less American troops will commit suicide in the long run because of PTSD. Obama is so caring. Best President ever.
ACA isn't socialist ... it is crony capitalist. Idiots think that anything the R-team is for, is capitalist ... and anyone who opposes the R-team is socialist. This is completely false. R-team loves corporate socialism. They just hate anyone who isn't a corporation (or at least a subchapter S-corporation for tax purposes).
Most of the electorate are idiots who can't see beyond the party label. Most of the idiots under the D label are supporting Hillary because that's who they're supposed to support and are drinking the "Bernie can't win" kool aid by the gallon. Most of the idiots under the R label are supporting Trump because he's different, but never suspect that he's so different that just a few years ago he was a pro-choice Democrat donating to Hillary.
Quote from: Jason_Harvestdancer on January 13, 2016, 12:37:12 AM
Most of the electorate are idiots who can't see beyond the party label. Most of the idiots under the D label are supporting Hillary because that's who they're supposed to support and are drinking the "Bernie can't win" kool aid by the gallon. Most of the idiots under the R label are supporting Trump because he's different, but never suspect that he's so different that just a few years ago he was a pro-choice Democrat donating to Hillary.
Democracy is so ... 200 years ago. We need a 2.0 system update STAT!
Quote from: Jason_Harvestdancer on January 13, 2016, 12:37:12 AM
Most of the idiots under the R label are supporting Trump because he's different, but never suspect that he's so different that just a few years ago he was a pro-choice Democrat donating to Hillary.
I've been waiting for Trump's gotcha where he gives a speech about people being so willing to support opportunists who tell them what they want to hear. He seems to be ramping up his rhetoric to see how far he can take it.
Quote from: gentle_dissident on January 13, 2016, 12:59:22 PM
I've been waiting for Trump's gotcha where he gives a speech about people being so willing to support opportunists who tell them what they want to hear. He seems to be ramping up his rhetoric to see how far he can take it.
Naw ... Trump will pull off his human mask, revealing the reptilian underneath, expecting to shock the audience. But it won't shock, the Republicans will pull off their human masks, revealing a reptilian underneath ;-)
This is an old Outer Limits or Twilight Zone episode. The story has a traveling salesman stopping at a diner. After the other customers leave, he addresses the fry cook, he reveals a third arm under his coat ... "Us Martians are taking over your planet, human! The fry cook pulls back his paper hat, revealing a third eye ... "Not so fast, our Venusian fleet will intercept yours in Earth orbit and shoot you down. This planet belongs to us!".
If trump wants to be remembered for hundreds of years, he'll pull the stunt.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/07/09/ths-many-ways-in-which-donald-trump-was-once-a-liberals-liberal/
And what if I "want" to vote for the lesser of two evils because I rather be kicked in the face than shot in it?
I've listened to Bernie for so long on Thom Hartmann's program that I feel as if I know him personally. He talks about the same things now that he's been talking about for years, and I like that.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 13, 2016, 02:29:05 PM
And what if I "want" to vote for the lesser of two evils because I rather be kicked in the face than shot in it?
Not voting for bernie if you support him honestly makes no fucking sense.
If he ends up losing, then hillary will be nominated and she may or may not win
However if bernie wins it's been shown that he has support from countless people, even some republicans, believe it or not.
People are starting to wake the fuck up and realize that there's something wrong in america, there can only be so many mass shootings, so many police brutalities, so many corrupt business scams, so many horrible decisions before people start to realize that their government doesn't support them.
Peaceful protest is the best remedy to open peoples eyes.
I'm personally going to take part in a march this year, I'm sick and fucking tired of the us government, it's just a bunch of facist money hungry retards who want to bring america back to the bronze ages so they can make some extra money, and I'm sick and fucking tired of hearing these pussies who just go with the flow of the political system, if you're not welling to go against the wind then it's just a tacit admission that you're welling to let corrupt assholes fuck you over in order to have a certain degree of security, the idea of risking it to get someone who can actually fix the country with the chance that you'll get a facist president if he loses is akin to having bees on your dick but being scared to try to open a box to put them back in there because there's another bee in it.
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 13, 2016, 06:08:17 PM
I've listened to Bernie for so long on Thom Hartmann's program that I feel as if I know him personally. He talks about the same things now that he's been talking about for years, and I like that.
So you would share a beer with him ... like Republicans felt with Shrub back in 2000? ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on January 14, 2016, 05:15:15 AM
So you would share a beer with him ... like Republicans felt with Shrub back in 2000? ;-)
I think he was more referring to how he isn't a snake, but maybe that's what you meant.
But there's real reason to say he's not a snake, he hasn't done any stupid shit, he's been firm on his opinions, and he doesn't take private funding.
Quote from: Jannabear on January 14, 2016, 05:02:22 AM
you're welling to let corrupt assholes fuck you over in order to have a certain degree of security
We used to call that prostitution. Sometimes marriage fits the description.
Here's how I keep up with the race. There are other polls in the drop-down.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/2016_democratic_presidential_nomination-3824.html
Quote from: gentle_dissident on January 14, 2016, 10:56:55 AM
We used to call that prostitution. Sometimes marriage fits the description.
Here's how I keep up with the race. There are other polls in the drop-down.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/2016_democratic_presidential_nomination-3824.html
o_O Sanders is doing a lot better lately! Maybe when he's level with Hillary, the Sanders-has-no-chance naysayers will finally pipe down.
Quote from: Baruch on January 14, 2016, 05:15:15 AM
So you would share a beer with him ... like Republicans felt with Shrub back in 2000? ;-)
I'd drink a pint o' pale with him, sure. But I wouldn't vote for him just because he's personable. He seems to share a lot of my values, and seems to be consistent in
his platform (https://berniesanders.com/issues/). I'm pretty cynical about politicians in general, so I'm leery about anyone running for president. I just hope that, if Sanders wins, he can get things done that will be good for America.
Not supporting someone until they're already ahead seems like a sissy move. I just worry that a Republican congress will obstruct a Democrat president again. The senate and congressional races are very important.
Yeah, the GOP has treated Obama pretty roughly, but they didn't treat Clinton very well, either. Apparently anyone holding the office who's not a Republican can expect horrible treatment from the GOP.
You strike me as someone who hasn't followed national politics for very long...
Quote from: pato15 on January 14, 2016, 10:23:23 PM
You strike me as someone who hasn't followed national politics for very long...
I only got interested after Terrible Tuesday, 9/11. I figured I'd better start paying attention, so at least I could have some idea of what's going on, even if I can't affect things much at all.
We seem to have fallen prey to that old Chinese proverb...
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lv8sc6xXpG1qkzcmz.gif)