My mom asked me this today. She's coming around to the idea of me being godless, but mostly seems perturbed at the idea that I don't think we'll be spending forever together in Heaven.
I don't really know. I personally would be horrified to discover virtually any major organized religion was true. I hope to God (pun intended) that they aren't.
But some non-specific idea of enteral existence? I don't know.
Quote from: TomFoolery on September 12, 2015, 09:29:52 PM
My mom asked me this today. She's coming around to the idea of me being godless, but mostly seems perturbed at the idea that I don't think we'll be spending forever together in Heaven.
I don't really know. I personally would be horrified to discover virtually any major organized religion was true. I hope to God (pun intended) that they aren't.
But some non-specific idea of enteral existence? I don't know.
I absolutely, positively, whole-heartedly hope I am right. I don't want to go to heaven and have to spend all eternity muttering
"holy, holy, holy" to the mass murdering deities of this world's religious movements. And I clearly have no wish to go to an eternal lake of fire. So yeah, there being no afterlife (least ways not one described in any sacred text I am aware of) is a good thing.
I am not driven by greed. A meal however good or bad comes to a end, going on eating pudding forever is not a nice prospect.
But there is always room for Jello ;-)
TomFoolery ... it is interesting how parents relate to us, and we relate to our own children. I don't dream of relations very often, but I am always happy to see my Dad who has been gone for 30 years now. My mother dreamed of her own obituary a week ago ... and the date in it has already passed a few days ago. Afterlife is one of the perennial fantasies of people:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwkHnjS4_yo
... I have books on Egyptology by Budge in my own library. The idea of Last Judgement is very old. "Mummy" is the name given by the apothecary to the ground up remains of Egyptian mummies, given to much later Europeans, as a medicine. It was the natron in it that was medicinal. The Chinese had something similar ... dragon bones ... that in fact were animal bones/carapaces holding the oldest readable Chinese writing, that were being ground up as medicine by their apothecaries.
I have a lavish copy of the scroll of Ani ... and look forward to visiting many times and places ... in lives to come.
It would indeed scare me to think that any one religion was right, as that could mean (depending on what that religion is the right one ) millions if not billions of people could end up suffering through no fault of their own.
So I don't hope I'm wrong, the alternative is not very good for a lot of people.
People's thinking is too linear. Their imagination is almost non-existent ... enervated by the vast quantity of high quality mythology produced by the media.
I kinda do. My loli god would be nice to worship. Perhaps I should tell everyone the dream I had once.
If I am not to go to hell? Then yes, being wrong would be interesting. Eternal bliss sounds quite wonderful, as do some of the other interpretations of the after life. Reincarnation not so much; you are far more likely to be born in a very shitty situation than a favourable. Frankly I don't want to be born as a starving homeless kid in Africa or a refugee in a wartorn middle Eastern country, or work in a sweat shop in Asia... or beheaded and carved into 5 pieces by cartels in Latin America. And don't even get me started on how animals have to live. To say I "won" the roll of the dice, relatively, in being born a human in a lower middle class family is an understatement.
Eternity I don't think is that bad though; if we have that sort of divine power, surely we have the power to forget what we have seen and done and enjoy it as it is new as many times as we want. That sounds nice.
Actually I do hope I am wrong since I am what could be considered a dystheist.
Quote from: TomFoolery on September 12, 2015, 09:29:52 PM
I don't really know. I personally would be horrified to discover virtually any major organized religion was true. I hope to God (pun intended) that they aren't.
But some non-specific idea of enteral existence? I don't know.
I hope the exit is joyful and I hope never to return. - Frida Kahlo
I think many theists are theists because the thought of living without a belief in an eternal afterlife terrifies them. What terrifies me is the thought that there will be an eternal afterlife.
I've never done it. But I'd sort of like to try this thought exercise on a theist. Start by asking them if they know how long it would take to count to one billion, (just under 32 years if you don't stop to eat, sleep or use the toilet). Then ask them to picture the largest number they can possibly imagine. Maybe mention that Bill Gates is worth about $79 billion or that the federal budget is about 4 trillion. Once they say they've got a grasp for just how large the largest number they could imagine is I tell them ok, now multiply that number times itself. And then take the result and times that by itself and do that again and again for a few hours. And then consider this. That new final number you end up with however long it is does not represent days or years. Each tick of that final number is a hundred years and even then, you're just getting started. Now what the fuck are you gonna do for that long? How many Mattlock reruns are you gonna watch?
The thought of an eternal afterlife truly frightens me and it should frighten anyone who understands what the word infinity really means.
Quote from: Johan on September 13, 2015, 12:42:42 AM
I hope the exit is joyful and I hope never to return. - Frida Kahlo
I think many theists are theists because the thought of living without a belief in an eternal afterlife terrifies them. What terrifies me is the thought that there will be an eternal afterlife.
I've never done it. But I'd sort of like to try this thought exercise on a theist. Start by asking them if they know how long it would take to count to one billion, (just under 32 years if you don't stop to eat, sleep or use the toilet). Then ask them to picture the largest number they can possibly imagine. Maybe mention that Bill Gates is worth about $79 billion or that the federal budget is about 4 trillion. Once they say they've got a grasp for just how large the largest number they could imagine is I tell them ok, now multiply that number times itself. And then take the result and times that by itself and do that again and again for a few hours. And then consider this. That new final number you end up with however long it is does not represent days or years. Each tick of that final number is a hundred years and even then, you're just getting started. Now what the fuck are you gonna do for that long? How many Mattlock reruns are you gonna watch?
The thought of an eternal afterlife truly frightens me and it should frighten anyone who understands what the word infinity really means.
I really don't like the concept of eternal life. After the first billion years you would run out of things that wouldn't bore you to death. There are only so many possible actions one can take and after that you would be living in "Groundhog Day" forever and ever with no way to escape.
I spent 2 years tunneling out of Mormonism and 16 years as a Christian and studied religion forwards and backwards in that time and I still am. The more I learn the more certain I am of being right. The brightest minds of human kind are atheists. All the great men I respect are atheists.
tl:dr; no.
I think you are viewing eternity far too much as a mortal would; since we are discussing the supernatural, than surely we can supernaturally find a way to enjoy it until the end of time. Or perhaps time does not even exist once one becomes an eternal; that an minute will be as a million years and a million years as a minute.
You are viewing an irrational concept just far too rationally :P.
Quote from: Shiranu on September 13, 2015, 01:04:41 AM
I think you are viewing eternity far too much as a mortal would; since we are discussing the supernatural, than surely we can supernaturally find a way to enjoy it until the end of time. Or perhaps time does not even exist once one becomes an eternal; that an minute will be as a million years and a million years as a minute.
You are viewing an irrational concept just far too rationally :P.
When I look at the concept of eternal life I see that those who desire it equate the concept with the concept of eternal happiness. It is like you have no choice but to be happy and to me that contrdicts that concept of free agency. So I really do not see it as anything good. Basically what you get is a robot...a program doing that same thing over and over agian but programmed to say it is happy. Where does agency fit in to this concept of eternal life?
None of the religious I have known ever mentioned or opined, so far as I know, on the manner and nature of the afterlife. They seem to get to "meet god" and their musings end there. So I don't think conceptualizing about heaven is a big deal with theists.
QuoteBasically what you get is a robot...a program doing that same thing over and over agian but programmed to say it is happy. Where does agency fit in to this concept of eternal life?
Is someone on drugs less "free" than you or I, who is being "programmed" by the substances he consumes to believe he is happy? Or is someone with Bipolar disorder less "free" because of the fluctuations that "program" them to be manic or depressed?
To feel bliss would not destroy one's agency anymore than drinking a beer or smoking some weed, or having mental illnesses that change their emotional state, and I am not sure why agency inherently needs a place in an afterlife anyways.
Quote from: stromboli on September 13, 2015, 02:06:45 AM
None of the religious I have known ever mentioned or opined, so far as I know, on the manner and nature of the afterlife. They seem to get to "meet god" and their musings end there. So I don't think conceptualizing about heaven is a big deal with theists.
I don't worry about it. Since I live in the present, spending my time worrying or musing about the future would be irrational. Actual human existence is present tense, with an increasingly fictional view of the past that one has actually experienced. Human memory isn't a tape recorder. It is a story making faculty.
One can see this another way. Why do you think that this present life ... isn't the afterlife? In reincarnation, this question is answered, but that isn't the only answer. If you want to know what the afterlife is like, look around, you are already in it ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on September 13, 2015, 02:50:56 AM
I don't worry about it. Since I live in the present, spending my time worrying or musing about the future would be irrational. Actual human existence is present tense, with an increasingly fictional view of the past that one has actually experienced. Human memory isn't a tape recorder. It is a story making faculty.
One can see this another way. Why do you think that this present life ... isn't the afterlife? In reincarnation, this question is answered, but that isn't the only answer. If you want to know what the afterlife is like, look around, you are already in it ;-)
I have no idea how my experience of consciousness came to exist, how it works now or whether it continues in any form after my body decomposes. Most explanations of existence after death seem like wish fulfillment at best, including the comforting certainty that absolutely nothing remains. Many people don't feel satisfied accepting complete uncertainty and are compelled to create some kind of sense of their existence, that things are as I remember and I am the person I believe myself to be. Existence and consciousness, perceptions of self and memory, are much more fluid and, for lack of a better word, mysterious than I usually feel comfortable acknowledging. Better to retreat into the womb of a materialistic world view and the illusion that I know exactly who and what I am.
Quote from: TomFoolery on September 12, 2015, 09:29:52 PM
My mom asked me this today. She's coming around to the idea of me being godless, but mostly seems perturbed at the idea that I don't think we'll be spending forever together in Heaven.
I don't really know. I personally would be horrified to discover virtually any major organized religion was true. I hope to God (pun intended) that they aren't.
But some non-specific idea of enteral existence? I don't know.
Even if you don't believe, tell you mother you will be together. A white lie won't cost you much, but it will mean a lot to her.
As we understand that humans, dogs and trees are but a few different "clicks" of the DNA strand, I cannot conceive that humans would have an "afterlife" of any kind without being in the company of trees, dogs, squirrels and green beans. Perhaps an ether like being in the middle of the Aurora Borealis one of trillions of atom zinging along and maybe, just maybe you brush against another atom of your former self and for a brief flash think,"hey I know yo…." and the thought is gone.
I don't hope I'm wrong about an afterlife, but I don't hope I'm right either. Until I get some observable evidence, the whole thing seems rather irrelevant.
Quote from: Shiranu on September 13, 2015, 01:04:41 AM
I think you are viewing eternity far too much as a mortal would; since we are discussing the supernatural, than surely we can supernaturally find a way to enjoy it until the end of time. Or perhaps time does not even exist once one becomes an eternal; that an minute will be as a million years and a million years as a minute.
I still subscribe to the idea that an eternity in Heaven would be Hell for me. I was born in 1985, and I didn't have a problem not existing prior to that, and I more or less think that non-existence whenever I die in 20?? will be probably just as fine.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 13, 2015, 07:34:43 AM
Even if you don't believe, tell you mother you will be together. A white lie won't cost you much, but it will mean a lot to her.
But she's the kind of person that if you show a crack in resolve, she'll use it to an advantage. I imagine the instant I tell her we'll be riding around on clouds singing hymns together she'll want to know that since I've conceded that point, perhaps I'd like to reexamine the nature of the creator of the universe.
I'm faced with the harsh reality of there not being an afterlife. I was taught to believe in it from my mother, who despite not being religious does believe in an afterlife in some form or another. The strange thing is, when my grandmother died, I still believe in an afterlife. But by the time my father died, by then I stopped believing.
I will not even debate with my mother on there not being an afterlife, because she wants to believe when she dies, she will be with her son (who died before I were born) again.
for me, I hold value in the life I have, and those who I share it with, and want to have the most out from life with them as I can. I feel just having people I love in my life is enough, and then we get a forever rest.
TomFoolery ... then don't give her too many details to shoot at. I don't think that I will be riding clouds and singing hymns either ... except for dreams, I really don't know what being dead is like. So why do you dismiss dreams ... and embrace only dreamless sleep? Your brain needs both to stay sane.
Munch - yes, we change as we age. But not always linearly. Glad you enjoy life now ... that is wiser than living in the past or future. On the other hand, is there nobody you miss as much as your mother misses her first son? If you live long enough, most people you know will have passed on, while you are still here, stuck with watching Gilligan's Island reruns ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on September 13, 2015, 09:54:38 AM
Munch - yes, we change as we age. But not always linearly. Glad you enjoy life now ... that is wiser than living in the past or future. On the other hand, is there nobody you miss as much as your mother misses her first son? If you live long enough, most people you know will have passed on, while you are still here, stuck with watching Gilligan's Island reruns ;-)
Of course. I loved my grandfather, he was my hero growing up, him having been in the war. I also miss my first cat, and my dog, and my grandmother, despite things mum told me about her. I've also lost good friends, some even young when in school. But I console myself, they may be gone, and I'll always love them, and always keep their memory with me, but I no longer believe we will see each other again, and thats just the deal we have in being alive. If we choose to love people, we have to also deal with the day when we lose them forever, and thats just how life rolls.
I live in the here and now, and keep memories of people I loved with me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye7BGnlTZmQ
Quote from: Baruch on September 13, 2015, 09:54:38 AM
TomFoolery ... then don't give her too many details to shoot at. I don't think that I will be riding clouds and singing hymns either ... except for dreams, I really don't know what being dead is like. So why do you dismiss dreams ... and embrace only dreamless sleep? Your brain needs both to stay sane.
I was mostly using imagery to convey a point, but I see what you mean.
The question bothers me because if I asked that of a deeply religious Christian, that is, if I asked them if I hoped they were wrong about Jesus, they would look at me like I had cockroaches spawning out of my eyeballs.
Quote from: TomFoolery on September 12, 2015, 09:29:52 PM
But some non-specific idea of enteral existence? I don't know.
Remember what Scarlett Johannsen said in "LUCY", "We never really die." Expert testimony there, guys.
But seriously, the idea that we're just incubating a being that will exist on another, perhaps "higher"(?) plane of existence isn't a bad notion to toy with. It doesn't require us to ruin this life with desperate attempts to appease some imaginary being to survive death.
Quote from: stromboli on September 13, 2015, 02:06:45 AM
None of the religious I have known ever mentioned or opined, so far as I know, on the manner and nature of the afterlife. They seem to get to "meet god" and their musings end there. So I don't think conceptualizing about heaven is a big deal with theists.
Maybe not so much conceptualizing about it, but they definitely want to believe that it exists. They definitely want to believe that every person they ever cared about who then died is waiting for them in some sort of nightmarish (to me anyway) eternal 24/7 bingo hall in the sky. They also want to believe that every one of those people is watching down on them constantly. How many times have you heard a theist say something to effect of I just can't believe that this is all there is?
These are things that always make me think theists aren't very good at logic. I've had quite a few major life changes since my parents died and I'm in a much better place now than I was when there were alive. I've had well-meaning relatives tell me that my mother and father see everything I do and that they're very proud of me. When I hear that, the first thing I immediately think is I'll never be able to have sex or take a shit again.
And quite frankly I don't understand how anyone else can do any of those things if they genuinely believe that all of their dead relatives are watching their every move. I don't understand theists can believe those sorts of things without really thinking about the consequences of how that would work.
And also, do theists ever stop to realize that it won't just be all the dead relatives they miss that'll be waiting for them. It'll also be all the dead relatives that were nothing but annoying. Every distant aunt whose letters they never answered. She's there, waiting and watching. Do they think she's not going to mention the no letters thing? 'Oh I know you were too busy to write me back, what with your video games and cellphones and those a-hem, sexual activities you seem to like so much with your girlfriends... and sometimes complete strangers you just met...'
It'll also be every asshole they've ever known. Every ex they ever dumped or got dumped by. Everyone they fired or who fired them. Every dude they flipped off in traffic, waitress they stiffed for a tip, creepy dentist they just stopped going to. Every one of those people will also be there waiting for them.
It is a mistake to be overly committed to an ideology or theology ... it isn't meek. Whatever happens tomorrow, even in this life ... is beyond my comprehension. And I have woken up a lot of mornings, and this point keeps getting reinforced. I can adjust to what the day brings, after it has arrived. And every night I go to sleep, the dreams keep telling me that this world isn't quite what it appears to be ... there is a lot of confirmation bias going on when I am awake.
Yes, I do miss my little girl so much ... but she won't return to being nine years old ... she would look at me with eyes bulged out if I asked her to pretend to be nine years old, now! If the afterlife is simply reliving precious memories ... then that isn't too bad either. My grandfather who I knew was also in WW II. Went overseas and saw combat. Hero? Absolutely. Per my first section in this post ... I don't know if we will see them again, particularly as they were when we were younger ... but I keep getting surprised.
"I'll never be able to have sex or take a shit again." ... yes, if the incomprehensible monstrous G-d perv isn't watching us, it is our friends and relations ;-) Yes, these models don't tolerate too close an examination, do they? Did you ever have sex ed in school? What if that teacher has been taking notes, and will hand you a grade after you pass on ... LoL
The human mind is not capable of conceptualizing beyond a certain point, because we are finite and our views are based on finite experiences. To imagine an infinite, eternal plane of existence is beyond our experience and our capabilities. This is why the people I knew as a Mormon or Christian pretty much have to stop at "meet god" because we can't describe something for which we have no actual evidence of, nor any comparison to.
I gather from personal study that heaven is something like an eternal sea of bliss, wherein we dwell in the mind of god forever happy and beyond pain. Sounds fucking boring to me.
Quote from: stromboli on September 13, 2015, 11:04:50 AM
I gather from personal study that heaven is something like an eternal sea of bliss, wherein we dwell in the mind of god forever happy and beyond pain. Sounds fucking boring to me.
Thats the impression I've always gotten of heaven or any other life paradise, if in life we need to uproot and change ourselves so we aren't confined to that rigid routine, why would anyone want to be in a place that will only allow you limited reach, and never anything beyond it? It sounds like a prison.
I'd sooner opt for eternal rest.
This is a complicated question. If I'm wrong, then a number of possibilities could be true. I could be wrong, and Islam could be true. I could be wrong, and pantheism is true. To assume that there are only two possibilities is a false dilemma. But let's assume that I am wrong, and Christianity is right. Do I hope that this is the case?
Well, let's see. If Christianity is true, then I will spend eternity in Hell for not believing. So I definitely do not want to die and find out that Christianity is right. However, if I were to learn that Christianity was true before I died, I think I would be filled with a multitude of emotions. My happiest days were when I was a Christian. Unlike some people, I had good experiences in church. If I could go back to that, I would.
Whether I'm wrong or not, what would it matter? Having said that, no one knows for certain who or what if anything, is a deity. I think there is beauty in just wondering, and believing as we wish. It's good to use our imaginations, but religions aren't about pondering on one's own...they are more about getting groups of people to agree with whateve the religion teaches, in order to control the groups. I find it hard to believe that if a deity should exist, he cares about that type of thing.
Quote from: Deidre32 on September 13, 2015, 03:26:43 PM
I find it hard to believe that if a deity should exist, he cares about that type of thing.
Agreed. If I started an ant farm in my house and discovered the ants were sentient beings, I would be kind of afraid if they started worshipping me as "she who send the light" every time I open the blinds or "the giver of soil" every time I dumped another clot of dirt in.
I only hope I'm wrong if I can see my loved again in a rapturous whole, one with the universe again. :cool:
Blackleaf ... pantheism minus karma ... doesn't spank you for guessing wrong.
It'd be nice if there was an after life. Not the one christians paint but one more as pagans paint. One where we explore the different dimensions. But I digress
No I don't hope I'm wrong rather I only concern my self with the one life I am guaranteed and that's this one. There is no promise for tomorrow so enjoy today and live every day you are alive to the fullest! That is my philosophy in life.
Quote from: CrucifyCindy on September 13, 2015, 12:42:12 AM
Actually I do hope I am wrong since I am what could be considered a dystheist.
A dystheist? Does that mean dysfunctioning theist?
Personally, death holds no fear--I don't know why, it just doesn't. We die and that's that. No more wondering, no more .............................period. Yeah, I can live with that. :)
And I do. I just fear pain. So give me something so I can die in peace. I know I'm not wrong, so I don't wonder if I'm wrong. But I do like to play those imaginary games of what if--so I like to read about concepts of afterlife. Nothing moves me, so my personal final conclusion is death is dead and my atoms become unbundled as me and float around for awhile and go wherever free atoms go.
I don't want an afterlife. But it would be nice if we could live to 200 or even better 500 years, in this world.
Given enough time, any type of eternal life would be living hell, eventually.
Quote from: Baruch on September 14, 2015, 01:47:30 AM
Blackleaf ... pantheism minus karma ... doesn't spank you for guessing wrong.
Well, it's still one out of an infinite number of possibilities.
Heaven wouldn't be boring. You would get to spend eternity watching people you loved burn endlessly in a lake of fire. That's got to be more entertaining than watching "American Idol."
My own parents are now past the age of 70, and in failing health. My father will likely be gone within the next year, so I have been giving it much thought whether it would be good to live forever in an eternally blissful state.
I have no children of my own, and my life on most fronts has been particularly complicated and difficult. If I become increasingly miserable and alone as I fear may happen, would I want them to be seeing this through some sort of cosmic lense through another dimension? I still miss my departed wife after 14 years, and I know I will never meet another who makes me feel the way she did when she was with me - no, I definitely would not have her knowing how bad it's been for me without her, unable to do anything for me. Who really wants to live forever anyway, watching all who you knew and loved wither? Who wants to see that happen to their children, before they join you for eternity? Then again, what if they cannot, because they did not believe - how will eternity be for you then? How blissful can an eternity of bliss really be, even if you are oblivious to all the suffering and change back on earth, or even those who are absent, after the first thousand years? LOL, even a few months would become miserably boring! Happiness is a mental state which cannot exist without knowing its opposite state, which is why the greed of those born to wealth is insatiable. As Queen astutely voiced it, nobody who really thinks about this fantasy really wants to live forever!
For the above reasons, I won't entertain the fantasy of seeing those who I loved in any sort of an "afterlife" because it would be much too selfish of me to wish eternity on them.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 14, 2015, 08:54:32 AM
I don't want an afterlife. But it would be nice if we could live to 200 or even better 500 years, in this world.
I've got to admit that I have a curiosity about the future. What will the next world superpower be? When do humans go extinct? What will be the reason? When will the Earth be destroyed as our sun expands? But alas, I'm not going to ever know.
Quote from: SGOS on September 14, 2015, 10:39:26 AM
I've got to admit that I have a curiosity about the future. go extinct? What will be the reason? When will the Earth be destroyed as our sun expands? But alas, I'm not going to ever know.
I ponder the same questions all the time. Especially considering in the grand scheme of things, humanity's existence is about as long as a dog's fart to the universe. Which really doesn't do much to help support the idea that my human consciousness will exist forever.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 14, 2015, 08:54:32 AM
I don't want an afterlife. But it would be nice if we could live to 200 or even better 500 years, in this world.
Are you some sort of masochist? This is samsara.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 14, 2015, 08:54:32 AM
I don't want an afterlife. But it would be nice if we could live to 200 or even better 500 years, in this world.
1. You don't want to be constantly getting more infirm.
2. It may be true, that you have never had time to do some things you want to do ... but if you wait for retirement, you may be too infirm to enjoy it.
3. There are twice as many things for me to do, every day, than I have time for ... having extra days doesn't improve this. I am forced to choose, and that might not be a bad thing after all.
Quote from: CrucifyCindy on September 14, 2015, 01:16:39 PM
Are you some sort of masochist?
No, I love life.
QuoteThis is samsara.
LOL
Quote from: Baruch on September 14, 2015, 01:35:34 PM
1. You don't want to be constantly getting more infirm.
Assume I'll be healthy for those 500 years...;-)
Quote2. It may be true, that you have never had time to do some things you want to do ... but if you wait for retirement, you may be too infirm to enjoy it.
I'm not waiting.
Quote3. There are twice as many things for me to do, every day, than I have time for ... having extra days doesn't improve this. I am forced to choose, and that might not be a bad thing after all.
But in 500 years, think of how many more things you would do...
I've done just about everything I have unselfishly desired. I have 3 left I will receive moving to California. But I'm not getting my hopes up for the third one, because it would take a true miracle. :angel: I promise I will be like a Saint if Shiva is listening. Om! Om! Om!
Prior to my birth I remember NOTHING, NADA! I have no reason to believe that after I die it's going to be one bit different.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on September 14, 2015, 03:07:05 PM
Prior to my birth I remember NOTHING, NADA! I have no reason to believe that after I die it's going to be one bit different.
This! If you really care that your departed loved ones are at peace, none have peace like that of the truly dead. To wish for them to go on and on forever is at best selfish.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on September 14, 2015, 03:07:05 PM
Prior to my birth I remember NOTHING, NADA! I have no reason to believe that after I die it's going to be one bit different.
So, you never watched Baby Geniuses ;-)
Quote from: Blackleaf on September 13, 2015, 03:23:11 PM
This is a complicated question. If I'm wrong, then a number of possibilities could be true. I could be wrong, and Islam could be true. I could be wrong, and pantheism is true. To assume that there are only two possibilities is a false dilemma. But let's assume that I am wrong, and Christianity is right. Do I hope that this is the case?
Well, let's see. If Christianity is true, then I will spend eternity in Hell for not believing. So I definitely do not want to die and find out that Christianity is right. However, if I were to learn that Christianity was true before I died, I think I would be filled with a multitude of emotions. My happiest days were when I was a Christian. Unlike some people, I had good experiences in church. If I could go back to that, I would.
Might as well call the Big Bang a deity, with a little help from evolution.
The origin of all things isn't the "god particle" ... otherwise the LHC would have created a new universe two years ago (Higgs) and obliterated this one. The origin of all things is the "god fart". When G-d lets loose, it is serious business ;-)
Your life is full of happenings, events, things, people, animals, and such..................YOU and only you, supply the joy, saddness, the shit and the shineola, and every other emotion. You live in a neutral world (it doesn't give a rats ass about you one way or the other) and you color it any way you want. You make every decision to 'Love It or List It"--every one.
Quote from: TomFoolery on September 14, 2015, 01:13:03 PM
I ponder the same questions all the time. Especially considering in the grand scheme of things, humanity's existence is about as long as a dog's fart to the universe. Which really doesn't do much to help support the idea that my human consciousness will exist forever.
It's only been in the last few years that I've become aware of how piddling man's duration as a species actually is. I always knew he was nothing compared to the great survivors like the sharks or the dinosaurs. I used to think of us as having been around for 3 to 5 million years, but now I'm hearing our lifetime as a species might be as low as 50,000 years, although it's often claimed to be 100,000 years. Those guys from 3 million years ago, were just other hominids, failed evolutionary experiments, and a brief as those experiments were, some outlasted us by tenfold. Somehow, I had gotten it in my head that all those different hominid fossils were our ancestors. Some appear to be, but many aren't, and those are only the fossils we have found. Who knows how many more of those failed experiments that we don't have a clue about have shared the planet along with others during the same time? Now they are all dead, and we are the only ones left, which strikes me as a rather ominous foreboding about our future.
And along with all the other life on the planet, which appears so abundant at this time, is just what there happens to be here at this geologic moment. For all the species that now exist, thousands of times more have gone extinct, most probably without leaving a trace so we don't even know of their existence. Our future is not just tenuous. Statistically speaking, our odds of becoming a resilient species on the order a turtle, is somewhere around nil.
One example of a failed hominid ... saw a great program a few years ago ... at one point there was a man-like creature larger than us ... the Sasquatch candidate (not the same as the giant gorilla species whose fossils come from S E Asia) ... and turns out if a human is much bigger than we are now ... there is too much thermodynamic problems to cope with ... the core temp goes too high ... and for most higher animals, that breaking point is just about the same temperature. With enough global warming (not balanced by increased rainfall etc) then all surface animals (other than humans in AC) would die of core temp failure.
O_O
um wow this thread has been slightly hijacked.
We can put off the question of the longevity of the species for a long time I hope ... but maybe not, if you follow the news. It has been thought by bigger brains, that whatever does us in, has to be novel, unexpected ... otherwise we could dodge it. So maybe not nukes this time, because there is nothing new in that. If one is caught up in a species ending event, it will at least color your notion of an afterlife, a little differently compared to just growing old.
I'd agree with some and that the idea of some non-specific afterlife might be cool. If I had the means to experience the universe in its entirety, that would truly be worth an eternity of existence. Although, heat death would be a bummer.
Quote from: TomFoolery on September 12, 2015, 09:29:52 PM
My mom asked me this today. She's coming around to the idea of me being godless, but mostly seems perturbed at the idea that I don't think we'll be spending forever together in Heaven.
I don't really know. I personally would be horrified to discover virtually any major organized religion was true. I hope to God (pun intended) that they aren't.
But some non-specific idea of enteral existence? I don't know.
Do I hope I'm wrong about God's non-existence? No! No! A thousand times, no!
Given
the totally horrific nature of the biblical God (http://nullgod.com/index.php?topic=164.0), I could never hope that such a monster as that could exist.
QuoteA God who kept tinkering with the universe was absurd; a God who interfered with human freedom and creativity was a tyrant. If God is seen as a self in a world of his own, an ego that relates to a thought, a cause separate from its effect, "he" becomes a being, not Being itself. An omnipotent, all-knowing tyrant is not so different from earthly dictators who make everything and everybody mere cogs in the machine which they controlled. An atheism that rejects such a God is amply justified.
Karen Armstrong
Quote from: TomFoolery on September 12, 2015, 09:29:52 PM
My mom asked me this today. She's coming around to the idea of me being godless, but mostly seems perturbed at the idea that I don't think we'll be spending forever together in Heaven.
I don't really know. I personally would be horrified to discover virtually any major organized religion was true. I hope to God (pun intended) that they aren't.
But some non-specific idea of enteral existence? I don't know.
I'm only interested in an afterlife if I can spend it moving freely in time and space like some incorporeal TARDIS, just seeing and learning more and more.
And when I know enough, I'll start my own universe.
Quote from: NeoLogic26 on September 15, 2015, 05:04:49 PM
I'd agree with some and that the idea of some non-specific afterlife might be cool. If I had the means to experience the universe in its entirety, that would truly be worth an eternity of existence. Although, heat death would be a bummer.
Heat death only happens when the system is closed ... if the universe is open, then that isn't true. Of course, for some people, the very definition of universe, is a closed system ... but I would counter that they are lacking in imagination, and just need to open a window to get some fresh air, metaphorically speaking. Don't take the Restaurant At The End Of The Universe literally.
Unbeliever ... Karen Armstrong is right ... I have always been impressed by her.
Trdsf ... you will, because you will be uploaded into Wikipedia ;-)
Maybe the finite speed of light actually causes the universe to be closed on itself?
Whether the one existing universe we know is open or closed, remains an open question.
Depends on what you mean by speed vs velocity. Speed is a scalar, and velocity is a vector, whose length is speed. And are you speaking of Euclidean space or Minkowski space-time? In Euclidean space, the speed of light-like particles is constant speed of light, as measured by all moving or static inertial frames. In Minkowski space-time, as measured by proper distance-proper time ... all objects move at the speed of light, as measured by all moving or static inertial frames ... non-light-like particles only seem to move at less than the speed of light ... because Minkowski space-time is hyperbolic, not Euclidean. In the presence of a gravitational field, the velocity of light is not constant, because it bends the vector ... though the length of the vector, the speed of light, remains constant. Even in Newtonian gravity, with Newtonian light particles (not waves), gravity bends the vector, but not as much as is observed.
The question of open or closed, of the type mentioned above ... depends on the net effect of gravitation over very long distances and times. Could a beam of light go (in space) all the way around the universe (like an Earth equator) and return to the original location (in space)? Obviously though, not at the time as measured by an ordinary clock ... it would take billions of years to return. But from the point of view of the light particles (modern version) there is no passage of time ... so if it returns, it would be instantaneous.
Quote from: Mike Cl on September 14, 2015, 08:19:15 AM
A dystheist? Does that mean dysfunctioning theist?
Dystheism is an ancient religious tradition that dates back to Ancient Egypt and Babylon
I mistook the meaning ... but now having read up ... I have to agree ... G-d is definitely a trickster. That is why clergy resemble their deity ;-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystheism
Quote from: CrucifyCindy on September 15, 2015, 09:01:31 PM
Dystheism is an ancient religious tradition that dates back to Ancient Egypt and Babylon
I like my definition better.
Quote from: SGOS on September 15, 2015, 09:24:36 AM
It's only been in the last few years that I've become aware of how piddling man's duration as a species actually is. I always knew he was nothing compared to the great survivors like the sharks or the dinosaurs. I used to think of us as having been around for 3 to 5 million years, but now I'm hearing our lifetime as a species might be as low as 50,000 years, although it's often claimed to be 100,000 years. Those guys from 3 million years ago, were just other hominids, failed evolutionary experiments, and a brief as those experiments were, some outlasted us by tenfold. Somehow, I had gotten it in my head that all those different hominid fossils were our ancestors. Some appear to be, but many aren't, and those are only the fossils we have found. Who knows how many more of those failed experiments that we don't have a clue about have shared the planet along with others during the same time? Now they are all dead, and we are the only ones left, which strikes me as a rather ominous foreboding about our future.
And along with all the other life on the planet, which appears so abundant at this time, is just what there happens to be here at this geologic moment. For all the species that now exist, thousands of times more have gone extinct, most probably without leaving a trace so we don't even know of their existence. Our future is not just tenuous. Statistically speaking, our odds of becoming a resilient species on the order a turtle, is somewhere around nil.
Homo Sapiens demonstrated its resilience when it outlived its species cousins, and I have little doubt that a few among us will find ways to continue adapting for as long as any form of life can exist on this planet. Unlike other species, we don't depend on our environmental conditions, we find ways to change that instead. We aren't panda bears, who don't even understand the imperative of eating and mating for survival, and we are more numerous than any mammal of our size. No matter what calamity future mistakes bring about, there will likely be a few who find ways to survive it, and we are much better than other animals at finding each other over great distances to increase our chances of survival. We depend on our minds for this, but as long as the human mind persists, the species will go on, or it will evolve from the post-apocalyptic survivors with the changes. Its evolution is no longer in the hands of the natural environment, but of the environment created or modified by itself. You know it got through the last major glaciation, right?
I'm not worried about the end of our species, but I am concerned of how it will be for the survivors when some self-delusioned primate causes the collapse of our civilization.
The idea that there is some loving father figure out there who is going to make me live forever and take care of me for all times in complete bliss is certainly a pleasant one. I would like to live forever in complete bliss. But do I "hope" I'm wrong? No. I've come to grips with the reality that I am mortal and I will some day die. It would certainly be nice to have super powers, but I'm not going to waste my time and energy, not to mention the IQ points I have to trade, to hope for something utterly ridiculous. I might as well stick my head in a vat of toxic waste hoping to get the strength of a hundred men, or maybe laser-beam eyes. I simply can't believe that any god too disinterested in me to talk to me while I'm alive will suddenly find me so fascinating that he just can't leave my side when I'm dead. And if I'm wrong then the universe simply stops making sense. I don't want the universe to not make sense. If the universe didn't make sense then I should at the very least get some magic powers out of the deal, but I didn't, so I want the universe to make sense.
"I'm not worried about the end of our species, but I am concerned of how it will be for the survivors when some self-delusioned primate causes the collapse of our civilization." ... but it isn't just because of some super-villain ... the system itself is part of the problem. Humans transcended biological evolution with social evolution, and atheists are proof of a kind, that individuals transcend social evolution with personal development (until you die anyway). The problem species face is over specialization. If you can't survive without a Food Stamp card ... then there are scenarios that will be rather grim for you, in the event the Food Stamp card isn't working anymore. But that really applies to a lot of us urban chump chimps.
Widdershins ... yes, definitely laser eyes would be boss!
Quote from: Baruch on September 16, 2015, 07:05:28 PM
"I'm not worried about the end of our species, but I am concerned of how it will be for the survivors when some self-delusioned primate causes the collapse of our civilization." ... but it isn't just because of some super-villain ... the system itself is part of the problem. Humans transcended biological evolution with social evolution, and atheists are proof of a kind, that individuals transcend social evolution with personal development (until you die anyway). The problem species face is over specialization. If you can't survive without a Food Stamp card ... then there are scenarios that will be rather grim for you, in the event the Food Stamp card isn't working anymore. But that really applies to a lot of us urban chump chimps.
Widdershins ... yes, definitely laser eyes would be boss!
Most of us will die in the next apocalypse, certainly myself included, so whether our species becomes extinct if it happens tomorrow is trivial to ourselves. But scattered around the globe there are quite enough who will be ready and adaptable enough to survive, and hopefully they won't all be Mormon.
Quote from: Unbeliever on September 15, 2015, 05:06:39 PM
Do I hope I'm wrong about God's non-existence? No! No! A thousand times, no!
Given the totally horrific nature of the biblical God (http://nullgod.com/index.php?topic=164.0), I could never hope that such a monster as that could exist.
Karen Armstrong
To be fair, many of the verses on that list are taken too literally and out of context, and it mistakes the perspective of speakers (such as Cain) for Biblical doctrine.
Quote from: Blackleaf on September 16, 2015, 11:29:41 PM
To be fair, many of the verses on that list are taken too literally and out of context, and it mistakes the perspective of speakers (such as Cain) for Biblical doctrine.
You are probably correct. But on the other hand, it does not keep those who are fundamental in their religion from doing the same thing--called cherry picking. They do it all the time. I would venture to say that 100% of all Christians do not consider all verses in the bible in their faith. They make excuses for those verses they don't like. For example, most simply ignore the rich man's chance of getting into heaven is the same chances a camel would go through a needle's eye. Almost every powerful christian leader seems to not be able to see that verse.
Quote from: Mike Cl on September 16, 2015, 11:39:51 PM
You are probably correct. But on the other hand, it does not keep those who are fundamental in their religion from doing the same thing--called cherry picking. They do it all the time. I would venture to say that 100% of all Christians do not consider all verses in the bible in their faith. They make excuses for those verses they don't like. For example, most simply ignore the rich man's chance of getting into heaven is the same chances a camel would go through a needle's eye. Almost every powerful christian leader seems to not be able to see that verse.
Every powerful Christian leader these days sees it not, but it's funny how every country Podunk preacher I remember would repeat that verse every other Sunday. I'm also fairly certain the televangelists of yore would feign poverty with that verse in order to milk their audiences for their cash.
Quote from: Unbeliever on September 15, 2015, 07:23:42 PM
Maybe the finite speed of light actually causes the universe to be closed on itself?
Given the accelerating expansion of the universe, I think it's unlikely (but not impossible) that the universe is closed, although that doesn't preclude an end -- generally referred to as the Big Rip. The finite speed of light doesn't appear to limit the rate of expansion of the universe as space is not a particle, massive or massless.