http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ma ... pe-poverty (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/13/jorge-mario-bergoglio-pope-poverty)
and believes in birth control to stop disease. Wowsers, we got a step up with this one. Or maybe not.
QuoteUnlike other cardinals, he has been untarnished by the various scandals rocking the Catholic church, and is thought to want to make reform of the Curia a priority. He was a fierce opponent of Argentina's decision to legalise gay marriage in 2010, arguing children need to have the right to be raised and educated by a father and a mother. But he takes a slightly more pragmatic view on contraception, believing that it can be permissible to prevent the spread of disease. He is ecumenical, believing in interfaith dialogue.
In 2009 Bergoglio made headlines when he criticised the government of Ernesto Kirchner, husband of current Argentine president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, claiming it was "immoral, illegitimate and unjust" to allow inequality in the country to grow. "Rather than preventing that, it seems they have opted for making inequalities even greater," he said. "Human rights are not only violated by terrorism, repression or assassination, but also by unfair economic structures that creates huge inequalities," he said at the time.
He also like, taught psychology and shit.
I bet he favors bitch slapping those feminazi nuns.. :roll:
I read the first bit and thought "Yeah!", then saw the rest; fuck.
+ Vocal against poverty and income inequality, okay with contraception to prevent disease, hasn't been involved in any child sex abuse cover-ups.
- Opposes abortions and euthanasia in all cases, as well as homosexuality.
A step up from the last pope, I suppose.
What? They didn't elect Cardinal Glick?
"Christ didn't come to Earth to give us the willies."
The European connection is still there because he was the son of Italian immigrant's parents after all, so I don't think it is such a big deal he happened to be one from the New World. So I just think it is a very small step in the right direction, not a giant step by any means. It is just going to be more of the same old same old.
I don't know enough about the new pope to criticize him yet. Hopefully, he never educates me ---poorly.
One of the things the NPR reporter did manage, yesterday, was to say the new Pope is a theologian.
How remarkable!
The Latin America has more Catholics than any place in the world and almost every person with common sense argues for a fairer distribution of income because only africa is worse in this regard!
Nobody in latin america likes of Argentines, especially the "porteños" (born in the capital - Buenos Aires), due to strong European immigration, they always considered themselves the "southern europe"...
A pope who opposes abortions and euthanasia in all cases, as well as homosexuality, keep a primitive and childlike dogmatism, which is brand of religions.
He's 76 years old, and has a reputation for conservatism. The only real change is that they elected a guy from Argentina - but only just barely. His parents immigrated to Argentina from Italy, so he's a safe White European racially, and an Italian at that.
Still, if he focuses the attention of the RCC on the poor and the Southern hemisphere, I guess that's better than nothing. But don't expect women to rise from chattel status, or priests to be allowed to marry, or child abusers to be treated any differently. This guy is just another Old White Man who believes in magic.
Quote from: "Davka"This guy is just another Old White Man who believes in magic.
Yep, "Meet the new boss, just like the old boss." Any changes in policy will be subtle. The Catholic Church has never been known as forward thinking. It's backward thinking, and even small changes can sometimes take hundreds of years. When that happens, it's a big deal, and some people get all excited and talk about how the church is keeping up with the times.
John Paul II destroyed the only "faction" of the church who really helped the poor, called "liberation's theology," which in addition to educating underserved communities, teaching them to fight for their political rights, as well as helping in the resistance against illegal exploitation of workers and minorities.
But the projection of the faithful in this "area" is that the Catholic church is losing too "space" for here calls "neo-protestant."
Quote from: "Davka"This guy is just another Old White Man who believes in magic.
Unfortunately he believes in something worse than magic, much worse ... :(
I want to know this guy's connections with the militias that killed so many innocents just a few decades ago.
I can only ascertain by the phrasing of his stance on contraception, that he's only ok with condoms in places like Africa where it really is more about AIDS prevention. That's only a small step up from previous popes, I think. And unless he's planning on melting down the gold in Vatican City to give to charity, all that talk about being down with eliminating poverty seems like lip service. I realize I'm biased by virtue of the fact that I think the pope is a stupid figurehead to begin with, but this guy doesn't seem like anything special. Even all the talk about this being historic because of his nationality doesn't make sense, because he's Italian for all intents and purposes.
Quote from: "SvZurich"I want to know this guy's connections with the militias that killed so many innocents just a few decades ago.
Yeah, apparently that was a thing with the church in Argentina. I'll look for something.
Found it
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/1 ... f=religion (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/13/pope-francis-kidnapping_n_2870251.html?utm_hp_ref=religion)
QuoteThe election of Pope Francis, previously Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio, has resurfaced a decades-old controversy surrounding the kidnappings of two Jesuit priests.
Bergoglio was a high-ranking official in the Society of Jesus of Argentina when a military junta was installed in the South American country in 1976. According to the Los Angeles Times, priests Orlando Yorio and Francisco Jalics were kidnapped in May of that year by the navy. "They surfaced five months later, drugged and seminude, in a field," the Times reported. A 2005 lawsuit accused Bergoglio of unspecified involvement in the abductions. Reuters explains that "the military government secretly jailed [Yorio and Jalics] for their work in poor neighborhoods."
A spokesman for Bergoglio called the claims "old slander."
Reuters has more details:
According to "The Silence," a book written by journalist Horacio Verbitsky, Bergoglio withdrew his order's protection of the two men after they refused to quit visiting the slums, which ultimately paved the way for their capture.
Verbitsky's book is based on statements by Orlando Yorio, one of the kidnapped Jesuits, before he died of natural causes in 2000. Both of the abducted clergymen survived five months of imprisonment.
"History condemns him. It shows him to be opposed to all innovation in the Church and above all, during the dictatorship, it shows he was very cozy with the military," Fortunato Mallimacci, the former dean of social sciences at the Universidad de Buenos Aires, once said.
Those who defend Bergoglio say there is no proof behind these claims and, on the contrary, they say the priest helped many dissidents escape during the military junta's rule.
I'm wondering if that will hang around to haunt the Pope, or if it will quickly go away. It sure didn't take much time to surface after the Pope's appointment.
Quote from: "NeoLogic26"but this guy doesn't seem like anything special. Even all the talk about this being historic because of his nationality doesn't make sense, because he's Italian for all intents and purposes.
It's interesting being a non-believer and watching the news coverage go on hour after hour and day after day about such a ridiculous event. NPR was trying to investigate the "specialness" of this new guy. Their correspondent followed him wherever she could, and one of the few things she was allowed to watch was a mass he gave for the cardinals. Every nuance of his behavior was under the microscope, and from every nuance, she extrapolated great possibilities. In the end, the correspondent admitted that everyone expects whatever they want to come from a new boss, but at this point, she really could not really predict anything at all. Why did NPR bother with this report? It was nothing but useless filler.
Quote from: "NeoLogic26"but this guy doesn't seem like anything special. Even all the talk about this being historic because of his nationality doesn't make sense, because he's Italian for all intents and purposes.
Born and raised in Argentina, why is he Italian?
Quote from: "Mathias"Quote from: "NeoLogic26"but this guy doesn't seem like anything special. Even all the talk about this being historic because of his nationality doesn't make sense, because he's Italian for all intents and purposes.
Born and raised in Argentina, why is he Italian?
Both his parents are Italian immigrants, and he's first generation born in Argentina. While he is Argentinian by birth, it's certainly pretty silly that he's being described as the first Latino pope when he's 100% Italian on both sides.
Disagree, until we can be greatly influenced by our parents, we are born, grow and engage with the culture of a country about to be involved in this story, it's silly not to consider it with such (in this case argentine). My maternal grandparents were son and daughter of Italians and Brazilians who were more than many Brazilians I met !
What makes a good part of person's culture and nationality is precisely the place he lives.
Quote from: "BarkAtTheMoon"Quote from: "Mathias"Quote from: "NeoLogic26"but this guy doesn't seem like anything special. Even all the talk about this being historic because of his nationality doesn't make sense, because he's Italian for all intents and purposes.
Born and raised in Argentina, why is he Italian?
Both his parents are Italian immigrants, and he's first generation born in Argentina. While he is Argentinian by birth, it's certainly pretty silly that he's being described as the first Latino pope when he's 100% Italian on both sides.
Disagree, until we can be greatly influenced by our parents, we are born, grow and engage with the culture of a country about to be involved in this story, it's silly not to consider it with such (in this case argentine). My maternal grandparents were son and daughter of Italians and Brazilians who were more than many Brazilians I met !
What makes a good part of person's culture and nationality is precisely the place he lives.
Quote from: "SvZurich"I want to know this guy's connections with the militias that killed so many innocents just a few decades ago.
I see stromboli beat me to it but heres a little more on the subject.
"In 2005, human rights lawyer Myriam Bregman filed a criminal suit against Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, accusing him of conspiring with the military junta in the 1976 kidnapping of two Jesuit priests. ...."
"In 2010, the survivors of the "Dirty War" accused Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio of complicity in the kidnapping of two members of the Society of Jesus Francisco Jalics y Orlando Yorio. ....."
"The accusations directed against Bergoglio regarding the two kidnapped Jesuit priests are but the tip of the iceberg. The entire Catholic hierarchy was behind the Military Junta. According to lawyer Myriam Bregman: "Bergoglio's own statements proved church officials knew from early on that the junta was torturing and killing its citizens, and yet publicly endorsed the dictators. "The dictatorship could not have operated this way without this key support,"..... "
http://www.globalresearch.ca/washington ... ar/5326675 (http://www.globalresearch.ca/washingtons-pope-who-is-francis-i-cardinal-jorge-mario-bergoglio-and-argentinas-dirty-war/5326675)
Horacio Verbitsky, cited by Stromboli, also appeared on Democracy Now last night with some of the same material.
My hope is that this guy, now under a lot of scrutiny because of his predecessor, stays under scrutiny. His stand against LGBTs Gay adoption and marriage already puts him in the headlights of a few groups. Personally I think he will be more of a Nazi than Benedict was.
Being Argentinian, I'm personally quite worried of the fact that this guy is both openly against our government (which is anything but great to begin with, but still) and has a massive influence here, considering that a majority of the population is Catholic. He seems like a better guy than the last old fucker, yes, but I still have a bad feeling about the whole thing.
I agree with Stromboli,
Of course that is my opinion, but any person religious or not, who supported the military dictatorship has a jaundiced view of society. Here in Brazil the era of dictatorship is called "lead years" and not by chance. I graduated in History and am very much in favor the view that the military government literally screwed Brazil in all aspects.
Quote from: "stromboli"Found it
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/1 ... f=religion (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/13/pope-francis-kidnapping_n_2870251.html?utm_hp_ref=religion)
Quoteand above all, during the dictatorship, it shows he was very cozy with the military," Fortunato Mallimacci, the former dean of social sciences at the Universidad de Buenos Aires, once said.
Does this sound a bit like Pius XII to anyone else?
Quote from: "Mathias"Disagree, until we can be greatly influenced by our parents, we are born, grow and engage with the culture of a country about to be involved in this story, it's silly not to consider it with such (in this case argentine). My maternal grandparents were son and daughter of Italians and Brazilians who were more than many Brazilians I met !
What makes a good part of person's culture and nationality is precisely the place he lives.
Yeah, except Argentina has a relatively large immigrant population, particularly from countries like Italy and Germany. And one thing about immigrants is that they tend to gather around each other to preserve aspects of their native culture. Seems likely he could have been surrounded by other Italian immigrants growing up and thus his cultural upbringing wouldn't have been substantially different in many respects than it would have been in Italy.
He is a first generation Argentinian raised by Italian Catholic parents. I say it is logical to assume he inherited much of their baggage, so to think of him strictly as Argentinian is a mistake. He was elected in Italy by a largely Italian conclave, so I think he is as much Italian as any of them.
Whatever. He carries the same 13th century baggage as they all do, so fuck em'.
I don't see what the big deal is. He's 76 and missing a lung, this sonofabitch will be dead or dying in a few years and they'll find some other old fucker to hate gays, women, and cover for pedophiles.
The Rick Copeland suspects the dirty wars in Francis' home country will come back to bite him in the ass... provided he hasn't sheltered any pedophiles...