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I have notice among some atheists the Eastern and New Age philosophy is not subject to the same criticism or skepticism as our more Western religions and spiritual philosophies. Some seem to think that just because it comes from the East that it must be better when it is just as filled with the same woo as what we have in the West. In fact I see some Eastern philosophies as just a rationalization of conservatism, a way to rationalize racism and elitism, dressing it up as some higher form of spirituality. Take the caste system as an example. I have read arguments that such a system is necessary because this is the way the universe or "karma" works, it is needful to treat other unequally because that is their karma but all I see is a rationalization of traditional injustice and prejudice. So I want to ask you atheist who keep defending Eastern thought over Western thought why don't you aim the same scrutiny over Eastern thought, why the kid gloves?

I understand what  you're saying. We see a lot of woo here that some think is a special kind of woo because it suggests humans are more than evolved animals and we can "exist" as something "higher" than what we are…..or gibberish like that. Woo is woo.

The religion that is in your face annoying you is going to get the most criticism. Hippies play around karma but it tends to get less criticism because I don't think most of us in the west actually take it seriously.

It uses woo as metaphor to show that the world is woo.
Most don't realize this and take it literary.

From nothing comes something, from something comes nothing. This is the way of the material universe.

QuoteWhen people see things as beautiful,
    ugliness is created.
    When people see things as good,
    evil is created.

    Being and non-being produce each other.
    Difficult and easy complement each other.
    Long and short define each other.
    High and low oppose each other.
    Fore and aft follow each other.

(http://img07.deviantart.net/1f90/i/2012/339/b/9/ajana_by_neja2047-d5n5ydi.jpg)

Quote
Ajata-vada theory may also be called the theory of non-origination. According to ajata-vada, the perceptual world in which we exist was never created. This theory completely rejects all causality.
It does not accept that there is any cause or source of this perceptual world.

This means that in reality nothing is born and nothing dies. There is no birth, no death, no growth, and no decay - in short, no change whatsoever. There is neither bondage nor liberation. Nothing exist except brahman(only a god to the ignorant, actually a word for infinity) the one and only reality.

Due to ignorance (ajnana) about brahman the world appears to exist in the minds of the ignorant.
When one experiences the self as one with brahmam, the illusion of the world is annihilated. What remains is brahman- the reality- a state of eternity.

QuoteKathopanishad
"Whatever there is such as the whole universe comes out of brahman(infinity) and keeps on vibrating"
In other words, the cause of this universe is brahman(infinity). All objects, living or non-living, are vibrating, but obviously not at the same frequency. Had they been vibrating at the same freequency they would all be the same object.
Had they not vibrated at all they would be no difference from brahman(infinity)

Why is a raven like a writing-desk?


“Begin at the beginning," the King said, very gravely, "and go on till you come to the end: then stop.”

QuoteThe sun was shining on the sea,
Shining with all his might:
He did his very best to make
The billows smooth and bright--
And this was odd, because it was
The middle of the night.

The moon was shining sulkily,
Because she thought the sun
Had got no business to be there
After the day was done--
"It's very rude of him," she said,
"To come and spoil the fun!"

(http://131149352163792408.weebly.com/uploads/1/1/4/6/11464080/207361_orig.gif)

QuoteThe sea was wet as wet could be,
The sands were dry as dry.
You could not see a cloud, because
No cloud was in the sky:
No birds were flying overhead--
There were no birds to fly.

The Walrus and the Carpenter
Were walking close at hand;
They wept like anything to see
Such quantities of sand:
"If this were only cleared away,"
They said, "it would be grand!"

"If seven maids with seven mops
Swept it for half a year.
Do you suppose," the Walrus said,
"That they could get it clear?"
"I doubt it," said the Carpenter,
And shed a bitter tear.

"O Oysters, come and walk with us!"
The Walrus did beseech.
"A pleasant walk, a pleasant talk,
Along the briny beach:
We cannot do with more than four,
To give a hand to each."

The eldest Oyster looked at him,
But never a word he said:
The eldest Oyster winked his eye,
And shook his heavy head--
Meaning to say he did not choose
To leave the oyster-bed.

But four young Oysters hurried up,
All eager for the treat:
Their coats were brushed, their faces washed,
Their shoes were clean and neat--
And this was odd, because, you know,
They hadn't any feet.

Four other Oysters followed them,
And yet another four;
And thick and fast they came at last,
And more, and more, and more--
All hopping through the frothy waves,
And scrambling to the shore.

Quote
The Walrus and the Carpenter
Walked on a mile or so,
And then they rested on a rock
Conveniently low:
And all the little Oysters stood
And waited in a row.

"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--
Of cabbages--and kings--
And why the sea is boiling hot--
And whether pigs have wings."

"But wait a bit," the Oysters cried,
"Before we have our chat;
For some of us are out of breath,
And all of us are fat!"
"No hurry!" said the Carpenter.
They thanked him much for that.

"A loaf of bread," the Walrus said,
"Is what we chiefly need:
Pepper and vinegar besides
Are very good indeed--
Now if you're ready, Oysters dear,
We can begin to feed."

"But not on us!" the Oysters cried,
Turning a little blue.
"After such kindness, that would be
A dismal thing to do!"
"The night is fine," the Walrus said.
"Do you admire the view?


"It was so kind of you to come!
And you are very nice!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"Cut us another slice:
I wish you were not quite so deaf--
I've had to ask you twice!"

"It seems a shame," the Walrus said,
"To play them such a trick,
After we've brought them out so far,
And made them trot so quick!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"The butter's spread too thick!"

"I weep for you," the Walrus said:
"I deeply sympathize."
With sobs and tears he sorted out
Those of the largest size,
Holding his pocket-handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes.

"O Oysters," said the Carpenter,
"You've had a pleasant run!
Shall we be trotting home again?'
But answer came there none--
And this was scarcely odd, because
They'd eaten every one.

I'm surround by Christians and we all agree those "religions" are nonsense. We don't criticize because we don't their faith seriously.

An atheist only believes in one less god than everyone else.

As Westerners ... it is hard not to be caught up in positive/negative Orientalism.  The Easterners have the same problem, being caught up in positive/negative Occidentalism.  But since they were more recently on the receiving end of colonialism, they have a sense of justifiable ennui.

Also some folks might be giving the Easterners a break, because we see them as oppressed Third World folks.  Christianity is too prosperous and prevalent where we live, not to be a large target.  Muslims tend to be too militant and too close for comfort for some folks, so they are a large target.

Now it isn't necessary to take any traditional religion seriously ... so I am not criticizing that.  Anything that has staying power can take all the criticism it can get ... and not just verbiage, but action.  Reality wasn't meant to be a Parisian salon.

If you can't give a good answer in one paragraph, I don't even bother with the 70 that follows. Do you really think we read that shit?

Quote from: aitm on August 24, 2015, 09:37:33 PM
If you can't give a good answer in one paragraph, I don't even bother with the 70 that follows. Do you really think we read that shit?

I was thinking when in Rome do as the Romans do. We are talking about woo here are we not, eastern philosophy. A bit of poetry wobbly picture all designed to make a few stoners go right on man, without any hard and fast meaning.

QuoteDo you really think we read that shit?

Exhibiting the erudition of a line like that, I think it is quite marvelous if you've read anything at all.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ieWi_2sFl9E/TlyIO02J8cI/AAAAAAAAAD8/ek0IqKVnT-Q/s1600/bulldog+2.png)

Quote from: CrucifyCindy on August 24, 2015, 02:55:13 PMIn fact I see some Eastern philosophies as just a rationalization of conservatism, a way to rationalize racism and elitism, dressing it up as some higher form of spirituality.

In Hinduism, we have two words and not just one that you mention, caste. Caste is 'jati'. Like a person from Bengal is a Bengali and a person from Punjab is a Punjabi. Caste shows tribal, regional, professional, linguistic, traditional differences. So there are Ahirs and Gujars, just like as there are Irish and Italians.

There is one more word and that is 'varna'. This is the inherent inclination of a person which comes about through education, training, experiences. A person interested in research and study is considered to be of brahmin varna. Now any one from any caste can have a brahmin varna. It does not depend on birth. A physically strong person delighting in challenges, sports, war is said to have the 'kshatriya' varna, though he may be born in a brahmin/kshatriya/vaishya (traders/agriculturists) or shudra (those who work for others) family. 

Be sure about what you mean when you talk about castes in Hinduism. An Italian will not like to be known as an Irish. An Ahir also would not like to be known as a Gujar. Each has its own tradition and history. Hinduism did not force anyone to leave their traditons and history.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2011/jan/19/india-hindu-terrorism-threat (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2011/jan/19/india-hindu-terrorism-threat)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QDtFjmlQSA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QDtFjmlQSA)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_Muslims_in_India (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_Muslims_in_India)

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Hindu-extremists-unleash-more-violence,-an-Easter-without-peace-for-Christians-in-India-27508.html (http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Hindu-extremists-unleash-more-violence,-an-Easter-without-peace-for-Christians-in-India-27508.html)

People is people, we all have bad parts to our history.

The Hindu party (Narendra Modi) has won only the second time in the history of India. For 63 years out of the 69, India had anti-Hindu rulers. Now those who have lost power are whining. Why should we care? Aseemanand was framed by the Italian Catholic Sonia Gandhi's party. Yes, there has been violence between Hindus and Muslims, but most of the time it came after Muslim atrocities, like the Mumbai serial bombing or the Godhra burning of the rail coach. Sometimes the violence was triggered by Congress (Sonia Gandhi's party) as in Moradabad riots or in Bhagalpur riots. The purpose was to turn Muslims away from Hindu party.

"Many social scientists feel that many of these acts of violence are institutionally supported, particularly by political parties and organizations from both sides of the political spectrum including Indian National Congress and Samajwadi Party to the Hindu nationalist volunteer organisation, Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS). Statistics released by the Indian Government reveals that between 2011-2013, Congress ruled states had more number of communal violence incidents than BJP ruled states. Samajwadi Party-ruled Uttar Pradesh was the worst-hit when it comes to communal unrest."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_Muslims_in_India#Role_of_political_parties

If you choose to go by motivated reports, you are welcome to do that. There will be millions of them on internet.

As for Christians, they are first to cry at any incident, even when Hindus are not involved; or when the disturbance is caused by them.

"The violence escalated after Hindu monk Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati was attacked by Christian fundamentalist mob en route to the spot of the confrontation. Saraswati stated that he had left for Brahmanigaon to boost the "morale of the majority community" The National Commission for Minorities in its report stated that this was "indicative of his desire to exacerbate communal tensions". Saraswati's car had been blocked by a bus belonging to Sugriba Singh, Panna leader and BJD Member of Parliament (Lower House). Saraswati supporters confronted them leading to an argument which led to a fight. Additionally, Christian leader Radha Kanta Nayak, Congress Member of Parliament (Upper House) and chief of Christian group World Vision allegedly incited hatred which led to further clashes between Hindus and Christians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_violence_in_Odisha#Attack_on_Swami_Laxmanananda

Swami Laxmananda and four of his associates were killed.

Quote from: CrucifyCindy on August 24, 2015, 02:55:13 PM
I have notice among some atheists the Eastern and New Age philosophy is not subject to the same criticism or skepticism as our more Western religions and spiritual philosophies. Some seem to think that just because it comes from the East that it must be better when it is just as filled with the same woo as what we have in the West. In fact I see some Eastern philosophies as just a rationalization of conservatism, a way to rationalize racism and elitism, dressing it up as some higher form of spirituality. Take the caste system as an example. I have read arguments that such a system is necessary because this is the way the universe or "karma" works, it is needful to treat other unequally because that is their karma but all I see is a rationalization of traditional injustice and prejudice. So I want to ask you atheist who keep defending Eastern thought over Western thought why don't you aim the same scrutiny over Eastern thought, why the kid gloves?

Most of us live in western nations, so we attack western religion. We don't have as much exposure. Derp.

Fuck Buddha. Fuck Lao Tsu. Fuck Brahma. Fuck Kamis... Ok Keep Kamis, They have great miko dresses... Ah, my sexism is showing again. :eyes:

(http://cdn29.us2.fansshare.com/pictures/traditionalfashion/akiko-and-julius-kwan-model-bridal-kimono-worn-at-traditional-japanese-shinto-wedding-ceremony-1045808553.jpg)

Damn straight! Fuck you Buddha!

Quote from: Cocoa Beware on August 25, 2015, 01:22:10 AM
Damn straight! Fuck you Buddha!

And we all have to remember that the "Enlighten One" was a blatant misogynist, so how "Enlighten" was the "Enlighten One"? So yeah...Fuck you Buddha!

Quote from: Aupmanyav on August 25, 2015, 01:07:36 AM
The Hindu party (Narendra Modi) has won only the second time in the history of India. For 63 years out of the 69, India had anti-Hindu rulers.

I might be mistaken but I for one thought that India has existed longer than 69 years. Face it, all your talk about non-dualism is just a crock because you are a outright nationalist.

Quote from: aitm on August 24, 2015, 03:52:47 PM
I understand what  you're saying. We see a lot of woo here that some think is a special kind of woo because it suggests humans are more than evolved animals and we can "exist" as something "higher" than what we are…..or gibberish like that. Woo is woo.

And I have notice that those who believe in Eastern woo while calling themselves atheistt seem to believe that evolution is something other than the blind process that it is. I am a theist but even I can accept that evolution is just a roll of the dice and nothing more than that. If a creature can exist in its milieu, it will once it can't it goes extinct.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on August 24, 2015, 06:30:02 PM
I'm surround by Christians and we all agree those "religions" are nonsense. We don't criticize because we don't their faith seriously.

You are going to give this excuse in the age of globalization, the internet and Oprah Winfrey?

Quote from: CrucifyCindy on August 25, 2015, 01:51:14 AM
You are going to give this excuse in the age of globalization, the internet and Oprah Winfrey?

I don't treat Eastern or Western religions all that differently because I'm skeptical of them all. I see them as different expressions of similar psychological needs shaped by social values and norms-- essentially the same song, different lyrics, different language. Unlike some other atheists, I don't hate religion but I also don't relate to it personally very well. Religion does not work for me, it isn't how I make sense of my world, but it obviously is of value to many people... like Oprah.

Quote from: CrucifyCindy on August 25, 2015, 01:37:24 AMI might be mistaken but I for one thought that India has existed longer than 69 years. Face it, all your talk about non-dualism is just a crock because you are a outright nationalist.

Anything wrong with being a nationalist? Their are two versions of truth. Absolute and pragmatic. Nations, religions, people, exist only in pragmatic reality and not in Absolute reality.

Before independence, there were British and Muslims. They too were not very favorable towards Hindus.

Quote from: CrucifyCindy on August 25, 2015, 01:49:46 AM.. those who believe in Eastern woo while calling themselves atheist seem to believe that evolution is something other than the blind process that it is.

I could not get your meaning. Evolution is not a blind process. It proceeds according to its experience. When we do not require a tail, it withers.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on August 25, 2015, 03:56:08 AMI see them as different expressions of similar psychological needs shaped by social values and norms - essentially the same song, different lyrics, different language. Unlike some other atheists, I don't hate religion but I also don't relate to it personally very well.

While I agree to your first statement, it is not the same song everywhere. Yes, if it is a necessity for many people, why should we hate it? I took my religion and molded it the way I like. :)

I cannot help but notice how quickly swastika boy resorts to all the problems were caused by that group of outsiders who only pretend to be of his race beliefs and other outsiders. His group of course are whiter than white.
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k46/Skipper67/azad2.jpg)

Of course in the West, we have no caste system (we are all identical clones of the Bee Queen), right?  Bwahaha ... and we have no politics and no nationalism ... pot calling the kettle on the cell phone these days?

Now I do prefer my church/state separation ... and I realize that most people in the world don't have that.  But this poster (Aupmanyav) I think would be fine with individual religious choice ... he isn't like the Hindu fundies who killed Mahatma, and who are strong in India now.  Congress was a moderate party.  But the real goal of BJP is to force all Muslims to Hinduism, and into the untouchable class.  This is class warfare, and religious intolerance ... and will be met with by civil war (not that anyone should want that).  Of BJP, everyone who is not of their party is of Ravana, they are the party of Rama.  Oh, gotta conquer Sri Lanka while they are at it, not just Bangladesh and Pakistan.  I don't have a problem with nationalism myself, just with using it as an opportunity for aggression.  Kurukshetra didn't work out well for anyone, but that is the kind of genocide that is imagined (by people from that culture) rather than the Revelations type.  I am not of either culture, but if I were into megadeath porn ... I would be thinking all the Gentiles would drop dead.  Fortunately I am a merciful type, even though my G-d is like Kali-ma.

I am of anglo saxon extraction Edmund Ironside who died in 1016 was the last Anglo-Saxon king, after that Viking rulers, then Normans conquered, etc.
Robert the Bruce was of norman Stock
If we take swastika boys excuse for the Hindus that a thousand years ago they were ruled by others, then the other part of his argument that much that was wrong is the fault of the British does not stand because British history holds exactly the same excuse for the British.

I am saying both pot and Kettle are black, Swastika boy is putting forward the idea his side is all white, and that looks very fundamentalist to me.

Well, think about it - Buddhism and Hinduism have had ~1000 year head start on Xtianity, giving them that much more time to perfect their cloaking techniques from most who would bring the heat to those who are in reality no different from people of said religions. That they still exist prominently in Asian cultures means these religions have made themselves useful in Asian cultures. Their purpose is the same as any religion in any culture, which is to control the population by standing against change. Any religion which was really about true social justice would have been quickly beaten down into oblivion, or it simply never would have caught on big without the support of kings.

Quote from: Aupmanyav on August 25, 2015, 05:34:08 AM
I could not get your meaning. Evolution is not a blind process. It proceeds according to its experience. When we do not require a tail, it withers.

I am a bit confused by what you mean here.  Evolution does not 'experience' anything.  It is not a thing or force--it is a process.  The process unfolds as it will, with no design or energy or being to guide it.  It just proceeds along it's path and the results are the results.  And the process just keeps rolling along--no beginning, no end.  It just is.  (even my use of the word 'it' to describe evolution is wrong--evolution is just a process, not an 'it'.)

Quote from: jonb on August 25, 2015, 06:21:18 AMI cannot help but notice how quickly swastika boy resorts to all the problems were caused by that group of outsiders who only pretend to be of his race beliefs and other outsiders. His group of course are whiter than white.
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k46/Skipper67/azad2.jpg)

Azad Hind. That is where we got the slogan 'Jai Hind' (Hail India). We do not worry about things that happened in the past. We are marching on and have to look ahead. Our Dow-Jones crashed 1,700 points yesterday, the biggest fall in some 8 years, but recovered 300 points today.

Quote from: Mike Cl on August 25, 2015, 09:14:48 AMAnd the process just keeps rolling along - no beginning, no end. It just is.

"Thus, in successive generations members of a population are replaced by progeny of parents better adapted to survive and reproduce in the biophysical environment in which natural selection takes place." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
It does not roll randomly.

Quote from: Aupmanyav on August 25, 2015, 10:00:53 AM
Azad Hind. That is where we got the slogan 'Jai Hind' (Hail India). We do not worry about things that happened in the past. We are marching on and have to look ahead. Our Dow-Jones crashed 1,700 points yesterday, the biggest fall in some 8 years, but recovered 300 points today.

And this said at your post no 1948 the date of 1984s publication! Excellent newspeak.

Quote from: Baruch on August 25, 2015, 07:05:54 AMBut the real goal of BJP is to force all Muslims to Hinduism, and into the untouchable class. Of BJP, everyone who is not of their party is of Ravana, they are the party of Rama. Oh, gotta conquer Sri Lanka while they are at it, not just Bangladesh and Pakistan.

No, Baruch, no. BJP is not at all like that. BJP has no problem with Muslims unless they indulge in terrorism to aid Pakistan's designs. Of course, there are a few things that we would like to change:
1. No special status for Kashmir. But India has given Kashmiris its word that the change will be made only if Jammu & Kashmir Assembly accepts it. BJP will not force the issue.
2. Muslim personal law has created many problems for Muslim women. In a recent survey, 95% of the Muslim women want the thrice-spoken divorce (Talaq) to go. We want that. Then the question of alimony. Then the four-marriage law. It is unfair to women and we will like to see it go. BJP will like Muslims to follow the Indian civil law. these concessions were given to Muslims by the Congress governments to retain the Muslim votes. We have no problem with burquas or beards.

We have no territorial ambitions. We have enough problems with what we have. We will like to manage that. Why should we add to our problems by adding Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka or even Nepal. Of course, we want our military to be powerful. We have two belligerent neighbors with missile and nuclear capabilities. See what China is doing in South China Sea and Pakistan in Afghanistan.

Quote from: Aupmanyav on August 25, 2015, 10:00:53 AM

"Thus, in successive generations members of a population are replaced by progeny of parents better adapted to survive and reproduce in the biophysical environment in which natural selection takes place." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
It does not roll randomly.

You are right--evolution does not happen randomly.  The point I was trying to make is that the process of evolution is guided by physical laws; much like the law that states that water flows in the direction of least resistance.  That may appear to be random, but really isn't.  But neither process is guided by and 'intelligence'. 

Quote from: Mike Cl on August 25, 2015, 10:57:50 AMThat may appear to be random, but really isn't.  But neither process is guided by and 'intelligence'.

Did I ever say that?

If there is no intelligent guidance in nature ... then that explains some of the postings here ;-)

Quote from: peacewithoutgod on August 25, 2015, 09:10:15 AMAny religion which was really about true social justice would have been quickly beaten down into oblivion, or it simply never would have caught on big without the support of kings.

And if the religion was about social justice, there would have been no poor? Why are you against kings? All nations need rulers to maintain order. Call them King, Prime Minister or President, whatever. Kings had their own obligations to fulfill. They are mentioned in the religious scriptures in detail. We had democracies in Buddha's time where the rulers were selected by people - Janapadas.

Democracy has always fallen to authoritarian strongmen ... sigh ... in Greece and India ... and is happening now for a long time in the US.  Though I would hope the decentralized India would continue to do better than Pakistan in this regard.  Isn't the new Indian PM too close to the corporations?

Quote from: Baruch on August 25, 2015, 01:46:56 PMIf there is no intelligent guidance in nature ... then that explains some of the postings here ;-)

Which postings, Baruch? I am a strong atheist of long standing. I do not believe in God, soul, heaven, hell, transference of Karmas to any non-existent future lives, judgment, birth, death, and creation. Tell me on what to explain my views and I will gladly do that.

Wasn't intended for you personally ;-)  However I realize that as a human, you are a political animal.  I also realize that I may be misinformed about aspects in India ... that you can help me with.  And you know I have no problem with your personal path as an atheist Hindu ... anymore than I would with a Vaisnava, Saiva nor Durga.  As I mentioned elsewhere, my personal view of G-d is closer to Kali-Ma ... if I were a Hindu myself.  We will have to talk about the various yoga systems some time ;-)

Quote from: Baruch on August 25, 2015, 01:53:22 PM
Democracy has always fallen to authoritarian strongmen ... sigh ... in Greece and India ... and is happening now for a long time in the US.  Though I would hope the decentralized India would continue to do better than Pakistan in this regard.  Isn't the new Indian PM too close to the corporations?

I would not say that till I have any evidence of the same. Some Janapadas were republics, some had hereditary kings with approval of the populace and so on. It was not one type of democracy.

"The Janapadas were the realms, republics and kingdoms of the Indian Vedic period late Bronze Age into the (Iron Age) from about 1200 BC to the 6th century BC coinciding with the rise of sixteen great Mahajanapadas .." (however, Wikipedia lists 57 in all)

Quote from: Aupmanyav on August 25, 2015, 01:40:29 PM
Did I ever say that?

I'm not sure.  I asked what you meant by, "Evolution is not a blind process. It proceeds according to its experience. When we do not require a tail, it withers."  Understand, I am not trying to put you into any particular hole--I was, and, am, curious what you meant by, especially, 'it proceeds according to its experience.'  I'm honestly stuck on what you mean.  That's all.

Quote from: jonb on August 25, 2015, 08:07:45 AMIf we take swastika boys excuse for the Hindus that a thousand years ago they were ruled by others, then the other part of his argument that much that was wrong is the fault of the British does not stand because British history holds exactly the same excuse for the British. .. I am saying both pot and Kettle are black, Swastika boy is putting forward the idea his side is all white, and that looks very fundamentalist to me.

Yes, our misfortune lasted for more than 1,000 years.

First the Muslim rule and then the Company rule and then the British rule. You can read bout it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_rule_in_India, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression_in_India, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Raj#Partition_of_Bengal_.281905.E2.80.931911.29

Quote from: Mike Cl on August 25, 2015, 02:12:25 PMI'm not sure.  I asked what you meant by, "Evolution is not a blind process. It proceeds according to its experience. When we do not require a tail, it withers."  Understand, I am not trying to put you into any particular hole--I was, and, am, curious what you meant by, especially, 'it proceeds according to its experience.'  I'm honestly stuck on what you mean.  That's all.

OK and metta. What I meant by 'experience of evolution' was what Darwin said and as mentioned in Wikipedia "Thus, in successive generations members of a population are replaced by progeny of parents better adapted to survive and reproduce in the biophysical environment in which natural selection takes place." Evolution did not select those who did not fit the environment. It as you too understand is a purely physical phenomenon.

Quote from: Baruch on August 25, 2015, 01:46:56 PM
If there is no intelligent guidance in nature ... then that explains some of the postings here ;-)

Of course nature has no intelligent guidence...otherwise the Demiurge wouldn't find it amusing. And we are all here to amuse the Demiurge...aren't we?

Quote from: Aupmanyav on August 25, 2015, 02:23:39 PM
Yes, our misfortune lasted for more than 1,000 years.

In 1776 the British government could not control two and a half million Americans that were a two week voyage away.
India was admittedly differently advanced technologically, but essentially just as advanced as anything from Europe and possibly more advanced.
Average estimate of the population of India in 1800 around 200 million. It took at least six months to sail from England to India.
You might blame others but those statistics alone show the Europeans would have counted for nothing if they did not receive a great deal of Indian help.

We could argue over why indians chose foreign governance, but an attitude that blames all wrongs on the foreigner is as wrong from an Indian as it is wrong from an Englisher as it is wrong from any nationality.

Think about this for yourself you can be proud of a nation that has thrown off its shackles and is standing on its own feet, but you now sound very like what the Germans called 'A little Englander'

Are you creating a new India or are you in avoiding any introspection becoming the new English speaking elite that believe they have a divine right to rule?

Fortunately we don't know the might-of-beens ... just the what-was.  Would things have been better if Alexander had lived, conquered both India and Italy, so that Indian and Roman civilization were cut off?  One counter-historian has said that in that event, history would be 1000 years more advanced today, than it is ... with Buddhism not Christianity as the dominant religion, no Islam and no Judaism either.  And progressive that this guy is, that we would be 1000 years more advanced in outer space, and already colonizing other solar systems.

It is not clear to me, that being conquered by nearly tribes is any better than being conquered by far away tribes.  Back in the day before WW II, war was considered part of everyone's alternative business plan.  Ultimately trial by combat is at the top of the chart, followed by trial by ordeal, and finally trial by court.  The idea that everyone will play nice, and stick to trial by court ... is naive.  Trial by ordeal includes such fun things as plagues and starvation.  I think the only lesson that can be drawn is ... don't let other tribes conquer you, and that sometimes a good offense is the best defense.

India aside- I'll let you kiddies hash that out- Confucianism, for example, has been described as both a philosophy and a religion, but from what I've read of Confucius I would describe more as a philosopher. He was one of a kind, a singularly tall and (apparently quite ugly) guy that was also incredibly bright, a genius. I don't dabble much in philosophy now because I think that belongs in college, but there is knowledge to be gleaned if you seek it.

Likewise the book "Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance" is about Zen Buddhism, but presented in such a way as to apply it to everyday life through a series of metaphors. The motorcycle is actually very Zen; an inert object consisting of describable parts that, when ridden, exhibits qualities of a kind that Buckminster Fuller would describe as synergetic; a whole that is greater than the sum of the parts.

If you walk into a library assuming you won't learn anything, you won't. Pick up a book and you might.

Reductionists can never admit that anything is more than the sum of its parts ... but quantum entanglement accomplishes just that.

Being relatively conservative myself, the moderate conservatives of Confucius has always impressed me.  Though I like philosophical Daoism too.

Quote from: stromboli on August 25, 2015, 06:29:36 PM
India aside- I'll let you kiddies hash that out- Confucianism, for example, has been described as both a philosophy and a religion, but from what I've read of Confucius I would describe more as a philosopher. He was one of a kind, a singularly tall and (apparently quite ugly) guy that was also incredibly bright, a genius.

Lao Tzu thought Confucius was an asshole.

Quote from: CrucifyCindy on August 25, 2015, 07:39:38 PM
Lao Tzu thought Confucius was an asshole.

LOL…thats what I hope someone will say at my funeral… you know, after the nation mourns for a respectable time...

Quote from: Baruch on August 25, 2015, 06:33:27 PM
Reductionists can never admit that anything is more than the sum of its parts ... but quantum entanglement accomplishes just that.

Psst... Don't tell Baruch that quantum theory (entanglement and all) is a wholey reductionist theory.

Time is all powerful. There is a story in Bhagwat Purana when Arjuna, the mighty archer, could not lift his bow, and his women were abducted by enemies. India had its bad days. No one can win over time.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on August 25, 2015, 10:05:24 PM
Psst... Don't tell Baruch that quantum theory (entanglement and all) is a wholey reductionist theory.

Consciousness is a emergent property of this universe. Everything is every cell, every atom, everything. There is no god other than I

And "I" is the worst god possible ;-(  Egotism is death incarnate.

Though I don't use "emergent" or "epiphenomenal" ... because it is an abuse of scientific reductionism.  We move from whole to part, never from part to whole ... because of the nature of analysis.  The other direction is synthesis, musicians do that, not scientists.  Wholistic things are real, but reductionism is based on the pragmatic ability to ignore that ... the emergence is just a mind trick, because of our POV ... like the simple animation cards riffed, make the image seem to move, while in fact is is you who are moving.

Hakurei - I can use the words of the Quantum devil, against him.  I am not against reductionism per se, I am against panacea illusions.

Quote from: Baruch on August 26, 2015, 07:18:08 AM
And "I" is the worst god possible ;-(  Egotism is death incarnate.

Though I don't use "emergent" or "epiphenomenal" ... because it is an abuse of scientific reductionism.  We move from whole to part, never from part to whole ... because of the nature of analysis.  The other direction is synthesis, musicians do that, not scientists.  Wholistic things are real, but reductionism is based on the pragmatic ability to ignore that ... the emergence is just a mind trick, because of our POV ... like the simple animation cards riffed, make the image seem to move, while in fact is is you who are moving.

Hakurei - I can use the words of the Quantum devil, against him.  I am not against reductionism per se, I am against panacea illusions.

You don't even understand the nature of the game until you've done DMT or mushrooms.
I swear to you it will change your life the secrets of the universe will unfold behind your eyelids.
Every bit of matter is consciousness and when you do these things you can communicate with the collective.
I know this sounds odd but humans have built method for this called DMT. It's the most powerful psychedelic compound know to man in terms of what it does to consciousness.
Because we always look outward we don't see it but when we look inward this is where we find it. You get to see how information packed matter is DNA, atoms, molecules all that shit.

Infinity is made of imagination.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/da/e6/fe/dae6fe62600464c41629aedb5a59cf79.jpg)

(http://41.media.tumblr.com/b912dd104dd0bc587d1ad4643fd77b93/tumblr_n3w0ihhZ7X1qexuqco1_1280.jpg)

(http://wakezine.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/admin-ajax.jpg)

This human civilization thing has happened because we lost connection with the collective every other living thing is in constant contact with it.

(http://media.tumblr.com/0a2e3eeb33087b23711cc7e6e6382b1e/tumblr_inline_mi13cmkUc11qz4rgp.png)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdqA120L1vY
A mirror of deception that shows what once was me
A sickening reflection is all that I can see
The image I witnessed is now long lost
Just fragments of a memory... trails of a ghost....

I embraced new wisdom defiled!
Shattered the chains that kept me... confined!
Knowledge is power, and that I craved
Consumed was my spirit
Unspeakable presence, exalted by many
Eternal is my spirit!

Let there be light for those who seek the burning flame
Beyond the stars my throne awaits them who believe
I am above all other angels
Praise my name to the sound of drums
My hand with stretch on Earth and water
Gathering my chosen ones!

Immaculate deception!
Be free from all hypocrisy
Cleanse the Earth my children
In a blaze of scorn!

All gather at nightfall!
I will my armies through the dark!
Burn all in your pathway
Watch the flames grow high and brighter!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmZqFKmx3e4
   Mountains mask the tomb of thy eternal sleep
Guarded by the Seven Stars of Divine Power
Invoked only by the abominations of the abyss
Hordes of Utukki! The world will cower!

Xastur! Beloved of the ancient
Thy name is called! Awake and come to me!
Absu! Berth of all ancient evil
Stir the depths! Send forth your legions!

Kutulu rise from the seas of Nar Mattaru
To thy covenant you must hold firm
Sons of iniquity embrace your oath
Fulfill the prophecy in the Book of the Worm

Ninghizhidda heed my pledge! Sorceress of the Magick Wand
Those who dwell beyond the gate I came to seek beneath the sand
Hear me dormant spirit! Scourge of madness from your throne!
Open gate of Ganzir! Watcher of the land unknown!
Ia! Thou who art before all things
Ia! Born before man's reign begun
Ia! Thou art before legend and myth
Ia! Thou who art the ancient one!

In the name of Shammash! In the name of Ishtar!
Seven stars of seven powers
Ever-shining North Star
Iak sakkak Kutulu!
Come to me o ancient one!

Remember minions of the Great Old War
Beware the knower of the secret names
For all must perish for his power to restore
He wields the chariot with the disc of flames!

Guardians of the gates heed my calling
Answer to no other voice but mine!
For I have awoken the dead but dreaming
Resist.... and death shalt be thine!

May the dead rise
And smell the incense of my curse!
I summon thee...
Creatures of hatred and despise
I summon thee...
My words shall shatter the gate within!

The serpent awakes from silent slumber
Mother and queen of the world down under
The Absu yawns with jaws wide open
Behold the uprise of the ancient demon!

Xastur! Beloved of the ancient
Thy name is called! Awake and come to me!
Absu! Berth of all ancient evil
Stir the depths! Send forth your legions!

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 08:04:19 AM
You don't even understand the nature of the game until you've done DMT or mushrooms.

That, my friend, is pure bullshit.  Maybe even dangerous bullshit.  Why?  Because each and every one of us are a collection of chemicals in a sack.  Those chemicals are basically the same; but not exactly the same or in the same amounts.  And therein lies the problem.  You don't know what DMT or mushrooms or any other drug will do when it combines with the chemicals already present in that person.  For one person, a certain drug acts one way, and it can act in the opposite way with another person.  And dosages matter--as a mild example, I drove across country one summer; didn't have air conditioning, so I drove at night.  At the beginning of the night, coffee worked great--by the end of the night, coffee was putting me to sleep.  My exwife was driven to the edge of insanity by grass--she became super agitated--her high was one long panic attack.  While for me I became happy, horny and hungry.  So, taking a drug and thinking it a wonder drug that opens the world to you, can actually have the opposite effect--or not effect--or the effect you expect.  Nobody knows until you do it.  I don't like playing with shit like that--I am happy in my own little sack of chemicals and only want to induce outside chemicals (ice cream is different--everybody needs lots and lots of ice cream!) very carefully.

Ice cream for the lactose intolerant?

Quote from: Mike Cl on August 26, 2015, 09:30:31 AM
That, my friend, is pure bullshit.  Maybe even dangerous bullshit.  Why?  Because each and every one of us are a collection of chemicals in a sack.  Those chemicals are basically the same; but not exactly the same or in the same amounts.  And therein lies the problem.  You don't know what DMT or mushrooms or any other drug will do when it combines with the chemicals already present in that person.  For one person, a certain drug acts one way, and it can act in the opposite way with another person.  And dosages matter--as a mild example, I drove across country one summer; didn't have air conditioning, so I drove at night.  At the beginning of the night, coffee worked great--by the end of the night, coffee was putting me to sleep.  My exwife was driven to the edge of insanity by grass--she became super agitated--her high was one long panic attack.  While for me I became happy, horny and hungry.  So, taking a drug and thinking it a wonder drug that opens the world to you, can actually have the opposite effect--or not effect--or the effect you expect.  Nobody knows until you do it.  I don't like playing with shit like that--I am happy in my own little sack of chemicals and only want to induce outside chemicals (ice cream is different--everybody needs lots and lots of ice cream!) very carefully.

multidisciplinary association for psychedelic studies
http://www.maps.org/
http://www.nature.com/news/no-link-found-between-psychedelics-and-psychosis-1.16968

DMT occurs naturally in your body and all real science being done on these classical psychedelics are proving to be beneficial and very safe as "drugs" LSD, DMT, mushrooms, and mescaline.
These are sacred medicine from nature we are nature too!
Please read aldous huxley and other great psychedelic researchers.

I suffered from depression and anxiety took Xanax till it almost killed me.
Nothing helped. I smoked DMT once and it disappeared.
These substances have the potential to unlock us of our perceived limitations and give us peace with our existence. Truly I see beauty in everyone and everything.
My work days pass with bliss and ease. I didn't think it was possible but it is!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZoeWo1oEKI

Quote from: Baruch on August 26, 2015, 07:18:08 AM
Hakurei - I can use the words of the Quantum devil, against him.  I am not against reductionism per se, I am against panacea illusions.

Find alternatives that are actually better, and I'll use the alternatives. Until then, get that shit out of here.

Take the advice of a nihil-ist on drug use, and you deserve what you get!

Nihlism is what atheism is unjustly equated with in America.

ni·hil·ism (nī'il-izm, nī'hi-lizm),
1. In psychiatry, the delusion of the nonexistence of everything, especially of the self or part of the self.
2. Engagement in acts that are totally destructive to one's own purposes and those of one's group.
[L. nihil, nothing]
Farlex Partner Medical Dictionary © Farlex 2012

atheism
noun athe·ism \ˈā-thÄ"-ËŒi-zÉ™m\
Definition of ATHEISM
1
archaic :  ungodliness, wickedness archaic as in incorrect and unjustly attributed!
2
a :  a disbelief in the existence of deity

One of these guys is not like the others
One of these guys does not belong...

Quote from: Baruch on August 26, 2015, 07:18:08 AM
And "I" is the worst god possible

Yeah, but then it is the only god possible, isn't it?

Quote from: peacewithoutgod on August 26, 2015, 10:06:17 AM
Take the advice of a nihil-ist on drug use, and you deserve what you get!

Nihlism is what atheism is unjustly equated with in America.

ni·hil·ism (nī'il-izm, nī'hi-lizm),
1. In psychiatry, the delusion of the nonexistence of everything, especially of the self or part of the self.
2. Engagement in acts that are totally destructive to one's own purposes and those of one's group.
[L. nihil, nothing]
Farlex Partner Medical Dictionary © Farlex 2012

I made this account when I was a depressed nihilist.
I'm a human being now and I fucking love it.

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:11:32 AM
I made this account when I was a depressed nihilist.
I'm a human being now and I fucking love it.

Well, I'm sincerely glad that you're a human and love being that! Why then do you keep on posting the drivel of nihlism?

Quote from: peacewithoutgod on August 26, 2015, 10:16:46 AM
Well, I'm sincerely glad that you're a human and love being that! Why then do you keep on posting the drivel of nihlism?

You don't even know what it is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism

QuoteA key idea here is that human existence is in some way 'on its own'; anxiety (or anguish) is the recognition of this fact. Anxiety here has two important implications. First, most generally, many existentialists tended to stress the significance of emotions or feelings, in so far as they were presumed to have a less culturally or intellectually mediated relation to one's individual and separate existence. This idea is found in Kierkegaard, as we mentioned above, and in Heidegger's discussion of 'mood'; it is also one reason why existentialism had an influence on psychology. Second, anxiety also stands for a form of existence that is recognition of being on its own. What is meant by 'being on its own' varies among philosophers. For example, it might mean the irrelevance (or even negative influence) of rational thought, moral values, or empirical evidence, when it comes to making fundamental decisions concerning one's existence. As we shall see, Kierkegaard sees Hegel's account of religion in terms of the history of absolute spirit as an exemplary confusion of faith and reason. Alternatively, it might be a more specifically theological claim: the existence of a transcendent deity is not relevant to (or is positively detrimental to) such decisions (a view broadly shared by Nietzsche and Sartre). Finally, being on its own might signify the uniqueness of human existence, and thus the fact that it cannot understand itself in terms of other kinds of existence (Heidegger and Sartre).

Good old christian values still run wild in the atheists too.
(https://alwaysquestionauthority.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/1493503_653163411437188_6811582882611609990_o.jpg)
(http://www.notable-quotes.com/n/friedrich_nietzsche_quote_2.jpg)

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 09:54:32 AM
DMT occurs naturally in your body and all real science being done on these classical psychedelics are proving to be beneficial and very safe as "drugs" LSD, DMT, mushrooms, and mescaline.
These are sacred medicine from nature we are nature too!
Please read aldous huxley and other great psychedelic researchers.

I suffered from depression and anxiety took Xanax till it almost killed me.
Nothing helped. I smoked DMT once and it disappeared.
These substances have the potential to unlock us of our perceived limitations and give us peace with our existence. Truly I see beauty in everyone and everything.
My work days pass with bliss and ease. I didn't think it was possible but it is!

As long as we're sharing anecdotes, here's mine:

I suffered from depression and took Welbutrin until I stabilized. I stopped stressing about my life and my depression eased until it disappeared. I am now unmedicated and see the coolness of life. It is good and worth living.

This is not to say that DMT didn't help you. Maybe it did and still does. That doesn't mean it's right for everyone, or even that it's the best solution for you. It also doesn't mean that DMT is harmless or even less harmful because it's part of your body (natrualistic fallacy); there are plenty of substances that are beneficial to you in smaller quanities and are dangerous in higher quantities â€" alcohol, sugar, any fat-soluable vitamin, selenium, oxygen, fucking water (and I don't mean drowning).

Pharmacology is complicated, psychopharmacology even more so. You are censored data: you took DMT and it produced amazing results for you. Good for you. But what about the poor bastards that took DMT and it did nothing, or even worsened their illness? You don't get to hear about them very often, because clinical depression (which they still have in spite of their self-medication) makes you as if you were a physical cripple. This is why safety and efficacy studies are done. In such studies you get to hear the failures as well as the successes; only then can you properly assess risk.

HINT: When defining a term, it shouldn't take more than a couple of text lines.

I don't need your in-depth apologetics, nor your spurious conflation of nihlism with other isms such as existentialism. Reality is what works for me, and unlike you I don't deny it, and I don't hide from it, but I do try and make the best that I can of it. Moreover, making the best that we can of reality is the only way that life for humanity on this earth can ever be improved, while those who choose to deny it only get in our way.

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:26:28 AM
You don't even know what it is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism
Good old christian values still run wild in the atheists too.
(https://alwaysquestionauthority.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/1493503_653163411437188_6811582882611609990_o.jpg)

Well here's your research. DRUGS are a construct.
These substances are our birthright. They were used throughout history then religion destroyed it.
Secular governments enforced it.

It's almost impossible to research these things thanks to the criminal scum at the DEA. They don't give a fuck about safety. Far more people are hurt because they are illegal. They just want to continue to take in tax dollars. We also have private prisons that make money thanks to drug laws and have lobbyist working on harsher sentences. 
They are classed as having no medical value but there's no research to support that.
You have been conned and lied to your whole live and believed it. IT"S LIES

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3MCBh5kEk0
The truth must lie somewhere in your scripted lines,
Sterilized to keep the sheeple neutralized,
Painted faced corporate puppets propped in place,
To regurgitate propaganda everyday,
Naive ignorance transfixed on the syndicate,
Meticulous programming transmits for the omnipotent,
Altering the thoughts you think are of your own genesis,
Disinfotainment targets all with subliminal influence

Psycological warfare - Secretly waged on millions of people
Fundamental methods of popular control
Ellimination of individual critical thinking
A whole new army of remote controlled drones

Subversionary repetition necessary
For these luminaries to animate your adversaries
Belief systems synthesized by your television
Complete fiction blinds you from your mental prison
Simplistic negligence does not dismiss the consequence
Your symbiosis omits your guise of innocence
Conniving sellouts in a black abyss of arrogance
This verbal impotence insults my fucking intelligence
Mesmerized, your mind entrained, tranquilized
Hypnotized, lethargic state, paralyzed
Traumatized, you will obey, lost inside
Bastardized, you are a slave, dehumanized

You glamorize this new world order paradigm
Lies disguised to fool those you've lobotomized
Hollow clones perpetuate the status quo
You sold your soul to serve the tyrants of control

Rick Strassman is one of the only people who has been allowed to do research on DMT.
http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v08n3/08304str.html

Quote1) The "inhabited" nature of the DMT realms. Who or what do our volunteers encounter? Where do "they" reside and what is their nature? How do we address what they "say," or "tell" us? Are they figments of the "imagination" or do they represent denizens of independent, free- standing "alternative" realities?

2) The near-death, or death theme. How is it that people believe they have died, or are near death, on a high dose of DMT? Is this indeed a foretelling of the state encountered at the time or death? Or is it a so-called "near-death experience," whose relevance to actual death is hotly debated?

I have proposed that the pineal gland might produce DMT and other tryptamines at the time of death. If this were the case, might a "dry-run," using "outside administered" DMT, the same compound released at the time of death, provide practice for those either dying, or interested in the dying process?

3) The religious/spiritual nature of the experience. Near- death states share much with mystical/religious experiences. These, then share much with high-dose psychedelic sessions. My years of practice and study with a Buddhist contemplative organization inspired and helped shape my thinking about our DMT work. Now that these sorts of experiences were being had by our volunteers, how would the "rubber meet the road"?

Many senior students had shared with me the importance of their own psychedelic experiences in prompting their pursuit of the monastic, meditative life. Could those same leaders of an organized religion, albeit one based upon mystical consciousness, absorb and hold experiences that traditionally were brought on by what are disparingly referred to as "intoxicants," or the "wine of delusion."

On the other hand, could these drugs be used to help religious practitioners? Or, could they hurt the progress of those practitioners? If these drugs are to be used "religiously," how is the best way to do so?

4) The element of fear that accompanied both of our courageous volunteers' initial entrance to the DMT state. The sudden, unexpected, unpreparable, and totally compelling nature of the shift from normal reality to that of DMT is the "acid test" of one's ability to let go. People's inability to manage this transition seems to be the major ingredient in the development of adverse reaction, to both DMT, and later on, we would find, to psilocybin.

5) My motivations for giving DMT. Was this another example of "research is me-search"? In retrospect, I ought to have given a lower dose than 0.6 mg/kg. We could have gone to 0.4 mg/kg, and then if that weren't "enough," 0.5 or 0.6, depending on how close to "enough" we had gotten. However, as alluded to, there were many conflicting feelings driving my decisions to give 0.6, and as time went on, many more issues involving my relationships to our volunteers emerged. In general, I wondered if I were up to the challenge. Was Pandora's box opened? Should it have been kept shut? Were there greedy and manipulative motives conflicting with altruistic and helpful ones? What effect did giving so much DMT to so many people have on me: personally, psychologically, professionally, spiritually? How did it impact my family?

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 09:54:32 AM

DMT occurs naturally in your body and all real science being done on these classical psychedelics are proving to be beneficial and very safe as "drugs" LSD, DMT, mushrooms, and mescaline.
These are sacred medicine from nature we are nature too!
Please read aldous huxley and other great psychedelic researchers.

I suffered from depression and anxiety took Xanax till it almost killed me.
Nothing helped. I smoked DMT once and it disappeared.
These substances have the potential to unlock us of our perceived limitations and give us peace with our existence. Truly I see beauty in everyone and everything.
My work days pass with bliss and ease. I didn't think it was possible but it is!

Because something is labeled 'natural' or 'naturally occurring' means nothing.  There is not a single substance in the universe that is not natural.  Everything is natural.  So, using that word to make it seem a safe thing to eat or ingest is not being very honest.  Cow shit is natural.  Does not mean I want to eat it.  And because a substance is made in my body does not make it safe for me to add more.  I take insulin but taking too much at once will kill me.   The food we eat acts the same way 'drugs' do in our bodies.  A 'drug' does not make it a magical pill.  All drugs are dangerous--even those already produced by our own bodies.  And they act differently in different bodies.  Every time I take a different drug, it is an experiment; do the benefits outweigh the ill effects?  If so, I continue with it, if not, I stop.   

You, my friend, are a prime example of what I'm trying to say.  Xanax did not work for you--yet it works for many, many others.  And DMT worked for you--and I am very glad for you that it did.  Any relief from pain and suffering is a very good thing.  What I'm saying is that not all substances we take or use work the same for everybody.  Each new substance we use needs to be treated carefully.  If it works for you, then keep taking it.  If not, stop and try something else. 

Quote from: Mike Cl on August 26, 2015, 11:05:28 AM
Because something is labeled 'natural' or 'naturally occurring' means nothing.  There is not a single substance in the universe that is not natural.  Everything is natural.  So, using that word to make it seem a safe thing to eat or ingest is not being very honest.  Cow shit is natural.  Does not mean I want to eat it.  And because a substance is made in my body does not make it safe for me to add more.  I take insulin but taking too much at once will kill me.   The food we eat acts the same way 'drugs' do in our bodies.  A 'drug' does not make it a magical pill.  All drugs are dangerous--even those already produced by our own bodies.  And they act differently in different bodies.  Every time I take a different drug, it is an experiment; do the benefits outweigh the ill effects?  If so, I continue with it, if not, I stop.   

You, my friend, are a prime example of what I'm trying to say.  Xanax did not work for you--yet it works for many, many others.  And DMT worked for you--and I am very glad for you that it did.  Any relief from pain and suffering is a very good thing.  What I'm saying is that not all substances we take or use work the same for everybody.  Each new substance we use needs to be treated carefully.  If it works for you, then keep taking it.  If not, stop and try something else. 

Xanax is deadly additive after 2 months of use you can suffer permanent seizures.
Taking something everyday that can kill you is a band aid. It doesn't solve your problems it just makes you numb very much like being drunk.
Psychedelics are not addictive in the classical sense. They are extremely safe in terms of LD50.
Since they're illegal you don't know what you're getting and what kind of quality.
I'm an adult I should be able to eat mushrooms in my home if I can jump out of a airplane for fun. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PbhkML007Q

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:58:59 AM
Well here's your research. DRUGS are a construct.

There goes the nihlist again, with his nhilism!

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:58:59 AM
These substances are our birthright. They were used throughout history then religion destroyed it.
Secular governments enforced it.

Birthright, like all rights, is a construct of sociable animal societies, not of nature. It's real when we decide that it's good, not when we decide that it's real

Here's another hint: If you want to have a serious and productive discussion here, stop assaulting our eyes with the annoying, psychedelic visuals!

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:58:59 AM
It's almost impossible to research these things thanks to the criminal scum at the DEA. They don't give a fuck about safety. Far more people are hurt because they are illegal. They just want to continue to take in tax dollars. We also have private prisons that make money thanks to drug laws and have lobbyist working on harsher sentences. 
They are classed as having no medical value but there's no research to support that.
You have been conned and lied to your whole live and believed it. IT"S LIES

Most thoughtful Americans are sick of the DEA, we know how bad these arrogant, lying, dick-faced bullies are. So what? YOU raised their existence as a red-herring.

Drug use should not be banned altogether, but carefully regulated. They don't harm everyone who has used them, but they certainly have harmed enough people. Mike CI's ex wasn't the only person who had a very unpleasant experience with drugs so popular as grass, and it could have killed me - my inner ear was thrown off for days, and my nerves didn't know what was really going on. I knew the people who I was smoking with quite well, they were normal and empathetic, smoked it from the same bong, so don't give me that bullshit line "it must have been laced with acid, maaaaan"! I didn't taste much of Mary Fucking Jane, and more of her may have killed me. The problem with those of you who enjoy your drugs as a means of recreation is that they dull your sense of empathy, your perception of reality too, thereby you reject the reality that it harms others, or you simply don't give a fuck - and I already know you well enough that in your case it's at least the latter!

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:58:59 AM
Well here's your research. DRUGS are a construct.
These substances are our birthright. They were used throughout history then religion destroyed it.
Secular governments enforced it.

It's almost impossible to research these things thanks to the criminal scum at the DEA. They don't give a fuck about safety. Far more people are hurt because they are illegal. They just want to continue to take in tax dollars. We also have private prisons that make money thanks to drug laws and have lobbyist working on harsher sentences. 
They are classed as having no medical value but there's no research to support that.
You have been conned and lied to your whole live and believed it. IT"S LIES

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3MCBh5kEk0
The truth must lie somewhere in your scripted lines,
Sterilized to keep the sheeple neutralized,
Painted faced corporate puppets propped in place,
To regurgitate propaganda everyday,
Naive ignorance transfixed on the syndicate,
Meticulous programming transmits for the omnipotent,
Altering the thoughts you think are of your own genesis,
Disinfotainment targets all with subliminal influence

Psycological warfare - Secretly waged on millions of people
Fundamental methods of popular control
Ellimination of individual critical thinking
A whole new army of remote controlled drones

Subversionary repetition necessary
For these luminaries to animate your adversaries
Belief systems synthesized by your television
Complete fiction blinds you from your mental prison
Simplistic negligence does not dismiss the consequence
Your symbiosis omits your guise of innocence
Conniving sellouts in a black abyss of arrogance
This verbal impotence insults my fucking intelligence
Mesmerized, your mind entrained, tranquilized
Hypnotized, lethargic state, paralyzed
Traumatized, you will obey, lost inside
Bastardized, you are a slave, dehumanized

You glamorize this new world order paradigm
Lies disguised to fool those you've lobotomized
Hollow clones perpetuate the status quo
You sold your soul to serve the tyrants of control

Rick Strassman is one of the only people who has been allowed to do research on DMT.
http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v08n3/08304str.html

(http://img.pandawhale.com/151654-george-clooney-do-you-expect-m-8CDa.gif)

Quote from: peacewithoutgod on August 26, 2015, 11:22:05 AM
There goes the nihlist again, with his nhilism!
Birthright, like all rights, is a construct of sociable animal societies, not of nature. It's real when we decide that it's good, not when we decide that it's real
Most thoughtful Americans are sick of the DEA, we know how bad these arrogant, lying, dick-faced bullies are. So what? YOU raised their existence as a red-herring.

Drug use should not be banned altogether, but carefully regulated. They don't harm everyone who has used them, but they certainly have harmed enough people. Mike CI's ex wasn't the only person who had a very unpleasant experience with drugs so popular as grass, and it could have killed me - my inner ear was thrown off for days, and my nerves didn't know what was really going on. I knew the people who I was smoking with quite well, they were normal and empathetic, smoked it from the same bong, so don't give me that bullshit line "it must have been laced with acid, maaaaan"! I didn't taste much of Mary Fucking Jane, and more of her may have killed me. The problem with those of you who enjoy your drugs is that they dull your sense of empathy, your perception of reality too, thereby you reject the reality that it harms others, or you simply don't give a fuck - and I already know you well enough that in your case it's at least the latter!

You're spouting your dogma and propaganda.
Psychedelic drugs make you far more emphatic.  You were probably smoking some unknown research chemicals which are quite popular right now thanks to the illegality of drugs.

http://www.medicaldaily.com/how-magic-mushrooms-enlighten-brain-and-improve-psychiatric-conditions-311126

QuotePsilocybin profoundly alters consciousness, rearranging the brain so that new connections between neurons are made, and accessing them becomes easier. This doesn’t occur randomly, but instead, the neurons assume a new order, which brings clarity and new perspectives on old and new thoughts. Those effects are then combined with what scientists have found to be activation in the area of the brain â€" the hippocampus and anterior cingulate cortex â€" responsible for emotion and dreaming. “People often describe taking psilocybin as producing a dreamlike state,” Robin Carhart-Harris, a researcher who studies psilocybin, told Reuters earlier this year. Meanwhile, with the activity in the emotion region of the brain working at full-force, the area that helps us find a sense of self-awareness (the ego) goes quiet.

These effects are gone within five to 10 hours, however, the enlightenment they bring is long-lasting. Studies have shown that the psilocybin in mushrooms may be an effective chemical for treating post-traumatic stress disorder, depression, and anxiety. In a 2011 study, researchers enlisted 12 participants suffering from an advanced stage of cancer, and diagnosed with acute stress disorder or anxiety disorder. After giving them either a small dose of psilocybin, niacin (it induces a mild psychological reaction), or a placebo, they found that those who took psilocybin alleviated some stress, as measured by the STAI anxiety subscale. These effects were consistent up to three months after treatment.

Smokers may also benefit from taking a magic mushroom here and there. In September, researchers from Johns Hopkins University found that 12 out of 15 smokers were able to quit while sitting in a room, tripping on psilocybin, and listening to calming music. Those whose experiences were the most profound were more likely quit, the researchers said. “The rates of quitting were so high, twice as high as what you typically see with the gold standard medication,” researcher Matthew Johnson told Bloomberg News.

Science is only beginning to unravel the mysteries that surround drug use as treatment for psychiatric conditions. In the past few years, studies have shown that other drugs, like LSD and MDMA, also offer some benefit despite sitting next to marijuana and psilocybin on the list of Schedule I substances. Offering them to patients in a controlled manner, like the Johns Hopkins researchers did, could be a good way to procure their benefit without risking the dangers associated with fully dosed drugs.

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 11:30:21 AM
You're spouting your dogma and propaganda.
Psychedelic drugs make you far more emphatic.   

I've seen it for myself, as I've seen it in you, who ignores what happens to others because they are too selfish to be denied their own pleasure without any compromise. And I did offer the compromise of rational regulation, despite my own very terrifying experience with even the most so-called innocent recreational drug.

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 11:30:21 AM
You were probably smoking some unknown research chemicals which are quite popular right now thanks to the illegality of drugs.
You were probably smoking some unknown research chemicals which are quite popular right now thanks to the illegality of drugs.

The year was 1985, Asshole, and if I didn't know what it was that I was smoking, I wouldn't have touched it! I was the only one in a large group which was harmed by it, and from there I addressed already your despicable lack of empathy for those who didn't enjoy the shit the way you do, and were actually harmed by it! You are by far the most arrogant shithead not to be banned here as a troll!

Quote from: peacewithoutgod on August 26, 2015, 11:40:43 AM
I've seen it for myself, as I've seen it in you, who ignores what happens to others because they are too selfish to be denied their own pleasure without any compromise. And I did offer the compromise of rational regulation, despite my own very terrifying experience with even the most so-called innocent recreational drug.

You were probably smoking some unknown research chemicals which are quite popular right now thanks to the illegality of drugs.
You were probably smoking some unknown research chemicals which are quite popular right now thanks to the illegality of drugs.  The year was 1985, Asshole, and if I didn't know what it was that I was smoking, I wouldn't have touched it! I was the only one in a large group which was harmed by it, and from there I addressed already your despicable lack of empathy for those who didn't enjoy the shit the way you do, and were actually harmed by it! You are by far the most arrogant shithead not to be banned here as a troll!

Thanks. They should be legal for me to use.

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 11:30:21 AM
You're spouting your dogma and propaganda.
Psychedelic drugs make you far more emphatic.   

I've seen it for myself, as I've seen it in you, who ignores what happens to others because they are too selfish to be denied their own pleasure without any compromise. And I did offer the compromise of rational regulation, despite my own very terrifying experience with even the most so-called innocent recreational drug.

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 11:30:21 AM
You were probably smoking some unknown research chemicals which are quite popular right now thanks to the illegality of drugs.
You were probably smoking some unknown research chemicals which are quite popular right now thanks to the illegality of drugs.

The year was 1985, Asshole, and if I didn't know what it was that I was smoking, I wouldn't have touched it! I was the only one in a large group which was harmed by it, and from there I addressed already your despicable lack of empathy for those who didn't enjoy the shit the way you do, and were actually harmed by it! You are by far the most arrogant shithead not to be banned here as a troll!

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 11:18:46 AM
Xanax is deadly additive after 2 months of use you can suffer permanent seizures.
Taking something everyday that can kill you is a band aid. It doesn't solve your problems it just makes you numb very much like being drunk.
Psychedelics are not addictive in the classical sense. They are extremely safe in terms of LD50.
Since they're illegal you don't know what you're getting and what kind of quality.
I'm an adult I should be able to eat mushrooms in my home if I can jump out of a airplane for fun. 

You are missing my point.  I agree that we should be able to eat mushrooms in my own home.  I am for removing all drugs from the illegal list.  Criminal action is not the way to handle addictions.  Anyway, my point is that not everybody can tolerate all drugs the same as everybody else.  Caution should be used with all drugs.  There is no universal get well pill.  Aspirin will kill some, take care of a headache in most, and thin blood in most.  Every substance comes with good and bad effects.  We need to figure out what is right for us on an individual basis.

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 11:30:21 AM
You're spouting your dogma and propaganda.
Psychedelic drugs make you far more emphatic.

Now it's time to see if you can pass this simple science quiz. Answer 1 question correctly, and you score 100%!

Question 1:
When a substance is causing your brain to behave as it isn't supposed to, leading to memory loss, hallucinations, impairment of psychomotor functions, and impaired concentration, are these effects most likely caused by

a) the construction of new neurological connections

b) the destruction of existing neurological connections

Took Wellbutrin back in the day and am drug free now. Once you understand you have depression you can deal with it. Nearly every drug taken has something comparable found in nature. Aspirin is a synthetic form of the drug used by native shamans in willow bark. Marijuana was listed as a healing herb long before it was ever banned. There is evidence now that William Shakespeare used pot.

And I agree with Mike; I think drugs should be deregulated. In Colorado, Marijuana "abuse" vanished after they legalized it because it didn't actually exist. Countries that have stopped jailing drug addicts and started treating it as a medical problem have seen no rise in drug abuse. Turns out certain people biologically have a tendency to be addicted. The truth is most drug users are not addicts. I have Marijuana for my wife's MS. I don't use it and have no desire to.

Quote from: stromboli on August 26, 2015, 01:01:59 PM
Took Wellbutrin back in the day and am drug free now. Once you understand you have depression you can deal with it. Nearly every drug taken has something comparable found in nature. Aspirin is a synthetic form of the drug used by native shamans in willow bark. Marijuana was listed as a healing herb long before it was ever banned. There is evidence now that William Shakespeare used pot.

And I agree with Mike; I think drugs should be deregulated. In Colorado, Marijuana "abuse" vanished after they legalized it because it didn't actually exist. Countries that have stopped jailing drug addicts and started treating it as a medical problem have seen no rise in drug abuse. Turns out certain people biologically have a tendency to be addicted. The truth is most drug users are not addicts. I have Marijuana for my wife's MS. I don't use it and have no desire to.

Deregulation, as opposed to banning completely, YES! I don't think there should be total deregulation of most drugs which are used primarily for recreational use, particularly those which are addictve - there should certainly be a recordkeeping system to be paid for by the user, limiting his per month purchases. Let anybody use Mary Jane as they wish, but educate people concerning the risks.

You can only educate those willing to listen. It is and has been obvious that many have no intention nor desire to pay attention to the dangers of drugs.

Quote from: aitm on August 26, 2015, 01:31:42 PM
You can only educate those willing to listen. It is and has been obvious that many have no intention nor desire to pay attention to the dangers of drugs.

Ok, then just slap on a warning label and be done with it.

I know I am off topic but several authors, including Sam Harris, have advocated the use of hallucinogens, MDMA and other drugs to "expand consciousness." Neurologists know that taking certain drugs stimulate certain areas of the brain and can result in altered perceptions, such as feeling there is a presence in the room, a dissolved sense of self, euphoria, dissociative episodes, etc. There are also drugs that can induce severe anxiety and paranoid delusions. Let's say a man takes a drug that makes him paranoid and he believes his family is trying to murder him by poisoning his food (this is a common delusion). His perception is not accurate. Now let's say a woman takes a drug that makes her feel an intense connection and affection for people around her and a dissolved sense of self. What exactly makes her perception any more accurate than the man's? People taking drugs to induce a pleasurable sensation is understandable but to say that the drug induces a more accurate perception of the world doesn't make sense to me. I know it FEELS completely real when under drugs that we are one with the universe but it doesn't mean we actually are.

Quote from: CrucifyCindy on August 24, 2015, 02:55:13 PM
I have notice among some atheists the Eastern and New Age philosophy is not subject to the same criticism or skepticism as our more Western religions and spiritual philosophies.

Such atheists must exist.  There are a lot of atheists.  I just haven't met the ones you are talking about.  I'd like to talk with the ones who do give a pass to other religions just to hear their reasoning.  I think such a discussion would be interesting as I think it's a unique position, although I doubt they would convince me of anything significant.  There might be a case that the Amish are more acceptable than those who profess the slaying of apostates, but it's still all nonsense.

I know this thread has taken a turn to a drug discussion, but I've been away for a week.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on August 26, 2015, 02:10:53 PM
I know I am off topic but several authors, including Sam Harris, have advocated the use of hallucinogens, MDMA and other drugs to "expand consciousness." Neurologists know that taking certain drugs of stimulate certain areas of the brain and can result in altered perceptions, such as feeling there is a presence in the room, a dissolved sense of self, euphoria, dissociative episodes, etc. There are also drugs that can also induce severe anxiety and paranoid delusions. Let's say a man takes a drug that makes him paranoid and he believes his family is trying to murder him by poisoning his food (this is a common delusion). His perception is not accurate. Now let's say a woman takes a drug that makes her feel an intense connection and affection for people around her and a dissolved sense of self. What exactly makes her perception any more accurate than the man's? People taking drugs to induce a pleasurable sensation is understandable but to say that the drug induces a more accurate perception of the world doesn't make sense to me.

Where did Harris actually recommend the use of hallucinogens? I read The Moral Landscape, in which he described how they are used in some cultures, and their effects on the user, but I didn't conclude any recommendation there. What Harris has been known to recommend is quiet, relaxing meditation through focus on one's own breathing. Without drugs or woo, and with patience and concentration, this is effective.

He discusses his drug use in detail in Waking Up: A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion and describes how the profoundly hallucinogens have influenced his life. He writes:

"Needless to say, if I knew that either of my daughters would eventually develop a fondness for methamphetamines or heroin, I might never sleep again. But if they don't try a psychedelic like psilocybin or LSD at least once in their adult lives, I will wonder whether they had missed one of the most important rites of passage a human can experience."

He does warn that people who are prone to mental illness shouldn't take drugs.

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:58:59 AM
Well here's your research. DRUGS are a construct.
These substances are our birthright. They were used throughout history then religion destroyed it.
Secular governments enforced it.

No, people destroyed it when they started abusing it and dying/going crazy and scaring other people to death. True, the way we now go about it is completely the wrong way, but to say that everything was hunky dory with drugs is complete nonsense. The fact remains that what we call "drugs" are dangerous chemicals with serious effects and side effects. They are not innocuous.

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:58:59 AM
It's almost impossible to research these things thanks to the criminal scum at the DEA. They don't give a fuck about safety.

Yes, they do. They're doing it wrong, and out of an overblown fear of the side effects of the drugs they make illegal, but they actually do care about safety.

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:58:59 AM
Far more people are hurt because they are illegal.

Yes, because we have an insane drug policy spurred on by an insane fear of drugs. But that insane fear of drugs does not mean that there is not a legitimate fear of those same drugs.

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:58:59 AM
We also have private prisons that make money thanks to drug laws and have lobbyist working on harsher sentences. 
They are classed as having no medical value but there's no research to support that.

False. Cocaine is routinely used locally in eye surgery due to its ability to contract blood vessels to reduce bleeding and it also is an anesthetic. However, that effect of cocaine (together with its stimulant properties) means that at higher dosages, it overly strains the heart and can lead to cardiac arrest. THC (the active ingredient in cannibus) is actively being researched as an anti-nausiatic and hunger promotor. But not cannibis itself, because it has much the same hazards as smoking with no additional benefits above the purified THC product. And really, why would you want that junk in your lungs if the goal is to get THC into your body?

Yes, your body naturally generates DMT. But have you ever wondered why it doesn't generate more if it's so good for you? It's because the creatures that did generate more of it don't survive as long as the ones that generate the more moderate amounts. More is not always better.

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:58:59 AM
You have been conned and lied to your whole live and believed it. IT"S LIES

It's untruth, but I wouldn't say it's lies. Lies imply deliberate deception, but the most likely explanation for the drug war is just insane paranoia, a paranoia that does have basis in reality. These drugs are dangerous, just not to the degree they're commonly thought.

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:58:59 AM
<snip>

Poetry/song lyrics is a poor form of argument. Empirical evidence and clean sound logic would server your case much better.

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:58:59 AM
Rick Strassman is one of the only people who has been allowed to do research on DMT.
http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v08n3/08304str.html

So what if he is? Quite frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if he's the only scientist with both the interest to perform good research on DMT and the required skill to perform that research. Being able to get clean, high-quality data, and turn it into usable results is good, right?

There's quite a bit of misinformation out there due to the red scare and the government thinking drugs turn everyone into Communist.
If you don't know about it MKULTRA. The CIA experimented on unwilling citizens they knew the powerful paradigm breaking effects they have.

You have no idea what you're missing. Psychedelics are very different from narcotics. Certainly not everyone should use them but I believe I have every right too. True education would have much more benefit than Regan's just say no bullshit.
http://www.maps.org/research-archive/ayahuasca/Thomas_et_al_CDAR.pdf
http://www.maps.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=179&Itemid=637
(http://sensiblereason.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/MHkcg-1.jpeg)
(http://iasos.com/artists/cullison/GoldenBuddah-big2.jpg)

Quote from: SGOS on August 26, 2015, 02:18:01 PM

I know this thread has taken a turn to a drug discussion, but I've been away for a week.

Yes but that is bound to be the case. Once the woo is removed what else is there in eastern religion to talk about?

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:18:13 PM
There's quite a bit of misinformation out there due to the red scare and the government thinking drugs turn everyone into Communist.
If you don't know about it MKULTRA. The CIA experimented on unwilling citizens they knew the powerful paradigm breaking effects they have.

You have no idea what you're missing. Psychedelics are very different from narcotics. Certainly not everyone should use them but I believe I have every right too. True education would have much more benefit than Regan's just say no bullshit.

:wtff: :blahblah: :toilet: :axe: :anal: :butt: :butt: :butt: :butt: :butt: :butt: :evil: :weed: :alien2: :trunksthing: :madu: :toilet: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :wtff:

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:18:13 PM
There's quite a bit of misinformation out there due to the red scare and the government thinking drugs turn everyone into Communist.
If you don't know about it MKULTRA. The CIA experimented on unwilling citizens they knew the powerful paradigm breaking effects they have.

The CIA's MKUltra program was aimed at developing the CIA's stock in trade: military intelligence and subterfuge. It was essentially a program to make all those spy movie tropes reality: truth serums, mind-control drugs, brainwashing, etc. As for the secret testing, yeah, that happened, but you leave out that adverse effects were commonplace, described as "long-term debilitation" and that several of those subjects had died. If anything, it underlines my point: these drugs are not innocuous. They are powerful and dangerous and need to be respected.

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:18:13 PM
You have no idea what you're missing. Psychedelics are very different from narcotics. Certainly not everyone should use them but I believe I have every right too. True education would have much more benefit than Regan's just say no bullshit.

Pyschadelic effects are artificially induced religious experiences. I've already had my fill of those for one life-time, and since going into science I've come to appreciate that the world is wonderful and beautiful even when you're well-grounded in reality, and have aspects as weird and wacky as anything described in a psychadelic trip â€" made all the sweeter because it's actually real and not the function of an off-kilter brain chemistry.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on August 27, 2015, 08:48:20 AM
The CIA's MKUltra program was aimed at developing the CIA's stock in trade: military intelligence and subterfuge. It was essentially a program to make all those spy movie tropes reality: truth serums, mind-control drugs, brainwashing, etc. As for the secret testing, yeah, that happened, but you leave out that adverse effects were commonplace, described as "long-term debilitation" and that several of those subjects had died. If anything, it underlines my point: these drugs are not innocuous. They are powerful and dangerous and need to be respected.
Pyschadelic effects are artificially induced religious experiences. I've already had my fill of those for one life-time, and since going into science I've come to appreciate that the world is wonderful and beautiful even when you're well-grounded in reality, and have aspects as weird and wacky as anything described in a psychadelic trip â€" made all the sweeter because it's actually real and not the function of an off-kilter brain chemistry.

Yes all drugs should be respected even caffeine and aspirin. I left it out because people were being dose without knowing and who knows how much. LSD is active in the 100 microgram amounts so getting dosed with a milligram could be devastating. One person was said to have been dosed 100+ days straight.
You don't need drugs to have psychedelic experiences they can be induced through mediation and float tanks too.

I don't need psychedelic experiences to live a full life of wonder and beauty. You don't either.

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 27, 2015, 09:10:22 AM
You don't need drugs to have psychedelic experiences they can be induced through mediation and float tanks too.

Why do you really think one who has experienced and understood the true wonders of reality would be interested in getting so fucked up and unreal anyway? You have made it plain your aversion or fear of things which you haven't experienced for yourself. When something powerful, great, and REAL is revealed to you about the universe, this inspires - how can something that you know to be false inspire anyone? You incessantly post gigabytes worth of weird, ugly graphics here, song lyrics, and other vapidities, and then you insist there is nothing wrong with doing the drugs that you get high on - and still you seem to wonder why we laugh when you say it's us who are "missing out"! You really don't seem to understand how obvious that is, but we do well enough.

Many of us here have had ample experience with multiple drugs and I can only speak for myself, they are indeed nice to have lived through and all that but I would not in any way shape or form suggest to any one that they may help them in any fashion at all, in any way. Because other than one particular wonderful orgasm that lasted several minutes ( so it seemed, turned out I actually was peeing in her) I have had no drug experience that enlightened any damn thing.

Quote from: aitm on August 27, 2015, 02:51:52 PM
Because other than one particular wonderful orgasm that lasted several minutes ( so it seemed, turned out I actually was peeing in her) I have had no drug experience that enlightened any damn thing.

:rotflmao:

I know you guys are really skeptical of this stuff. I was too then I kept reading "trip" reports and couldn't help but what to learn more. My thirst is insatiable for learning.

http://www.serendipity.li/dmt/340_dmt_trip_reports.htm
Basically I had a experience similar to this one.

QuoteI raised the volume on my surround-sound system to the perfect level, with the music I had carefully selected: Beethoven's Tempest, the third and final movement, Allegretto. I sat in a comfortable chair, reclined, and took a few deep breaths. I am ready for this, I half-heartedly told myself, as my still-trembling hands raised the pipe to my lips in a slightly mechanical fashion. As the acrid vapor swirled into my lungs I thought, This is it. This is what we have been waiting for, questing for, and no one can ever be ready for this! Then it happened. The physical world dissolved before my eyes. It felt as if the entire universe had been compressed down to the size of a pea, and then placed in the center of my brain. Time stopped, and I ceased to exist. In that timeless moment, I was everything and nothing, all knowledge was mine, but I had no thought. I observed all matter and energy in the universe swirl together, swept into a mandala that included the energy formerly known as Scott. I was simply one element in this universal, homogeneous solution. Then a startling truth became known: This is death.

I was instantly overcome with the most paralyzing, all-consuming terror imaginable. As my ego struggled to regain control, I became separated from the mandala and spiraled down into darkness. I knew I was dead and this was eternity. There was no possibility of return, because all things exist in the mandala, and I was far away from it, in the void, in hell. I had visions of my children growing up without a father, of the machine of Western society turning them into materialistic consumer-drones because I am not there to guide them. I saw my friends and family shaking their heads and sighing, saying, "What a tragedy," then continuing on with their lives as if I had never existed.

I would exist only as a memory. This fear was the fiber of my being. I experienced this for what seemed like months or years; there is really no time in that dimension, so it could have been an eon. Finally I realized that my body was not dead and I could return to it and my children, friends, and family. I remembered: I wasn't dead permanently, I had simply smoked DMT. I became aware of my body once again, my eyes snapped open, and the objects of the physical world hurriedly jumped into their places in my field of vision, as if they did not expect me to be observing them at that moment, and frantically scrambled back to the places I expected them to be when I opened my eyes.

Everything was normal and tangible again. I have never been so grateful to be here, in this body, alive and breathing, as I was in that moment. Life-affirming is a gross understatement. I had been reborn. I shouted out a tearful "Thank you" to the cosmos, because I realized that each moment is a divine gift to be cherished, and I knew I would never again take my life for granted; I would live each moment as if it were my last.

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 27, 2015, 07:01:42 PM
I know you guys are really skeptical of this stuff. I was too then I kept reading "trip" reports and couldn't help but what to learn more. My thirst is insatiable for learning.

http://www.serendipity.li/dmt/340_dmt_trip_reports.htm
Basically I had a experience similar to this one.

You really do remind me of a new convert; much like a sports fanatic is called a 'fan'.  You are somebody who has discovered a new toy and you love it so much you want to share it.  That is a good thing.  But, because that toy interests you does not mean it will interest anybody else or to the extent you are interested.  You cannot 'convert' anyone here to your new toy.  Your outlook is good for you and it seems to work extremely well.  Over time, it may work out well for you--or not.  If I thought your experience would help me, I'd use it.  But I don't need that type of help or experience.  Something else I've learned in my later years is that something that worked for me in my 20's or 30's may not work now; my interests have changed, my needs have changed and my outlook has changed.  If, by some happenstance of time travel, I were to find myself in the same room with myself of my 20's, I may not even recognize myself.  I'd be different, that's for sure.  So, maybe soft peddling your new found knowledge would get you farther.

Quote from: Mike Cl on August 27, 2015, 07:59:46 PM
You really do remind me of a new convert; much like a sports fanatic is called a 'fan'.  You are somebody who has discovered a new toy and you love it so much you want to share it.  That is a good thing.  But, because that toy interests you does not mean it will interest anybody else or to the extent you are interested.  You cannot 'convert' anyone here to your new toy.  Your outlook is good for you and it seems to work extremely well.  Over time, it may work out well for you--or not.  If I thought your experience would help me, I'd use it.  But I don't need that type of help or experience.  Something else I've learned in my later years is that something that worked for me in my 20's or 30's may not work now; my interests have changed, my needs have changed and my outlook has changed.  If, by some happenstance of time travel, I were to find myself in the same room with myself of my 20's, I may not even recognize myself.  I'd be different, that's for sure.  So, maybe soft peddling your new found knowledge would get you farther.

You make a good point. I just find these experiences produce a repeatable  "meaning of life" type feeling even if you don't believe there is such a thing.
If you don't know these things have a rich history of use. Some of the great Greeks took part in the eleusinian mysteries. They drank a beverage know as kykeon.
One theory is it contained purified LSA made from ergot. Reports of the kykeon mirror a lot of modern reports of trips.
Even animals are known to eat these substances on purpose.
https://youtu.be/OqGDv0KCJl8

https://www.google.com/search?q=elusiousen+mistories&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=eleusinian+mysteries+initiation
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries#Entheogenic_theories

Pharmacological cults are as old as religion.  Sharing mead and soma were used to propagate the migration of Indo-Europeans.  But all of this is just jiggering the molecules you already have in your brain.  You can generate your own trips without chemical assistance, just saying.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on August 27, 2015, 12:39:31 PM
I don't need psychedelic experiences to live a full life of wonder and beauty. You don't either.

No, but to be fair it would probably be an interesting experience.

The Abrahamic religions are very authoritarian in nature to an extent they want to create police states that treat their beliefs as the law. Christianity, Islam and even Judaism are not just philosophies that have some 'woo' to them. They have doctrines that call for war, genocide, racism, sexism, ant-gay, and ridiculous irrational doctrines that teach people to not trust scientific and philosophical inquiry.

Buddhism, Hinduism, Janism and such certainly teach things that have no basis in the empirical world, but they don't create dogmas that are a menace to civilization; at least not to the extent of the Big Three. And their moral teachings certainly are not nearly as repugnant as the major monotheisms. So it's not exactly on the top of the agenda list for most Humanists and Naturalists.

That's my take.

Buddha instructed his students to assume nothing but question everything. This included his own teachings. Buddhists
believe too that psychological dependence in the form of cravings lies at the heart of all human suffering. And that the
path to enlightenment is reached through eliminating such negative desires. And Jainists believe in the principle of non
violence to the point where they would rather lay down their own life than inflict any physical harm upon someone else
through self defence. These virtues are morally superior to the ones commonly associated with the Abrahamics. Where
obedience to God is a central tenet of all three. And so where questioning his authority is not the done thing. Buddhists
do not even believe in God. So comparing the two sets of religions is false equivalence. For they are not the same at all

When I was in college, I saw my dorm mates trip. They didn't experience this sitting on their asses, safe in their rooms, no - they went running through the dorm, and then running through the street. Why should they not, anyway? The more you move around, and the more places you go while tripping, the more you get out of it, right? Only problem is raised by Aitm's example. When you literally don't know whether you're coming or going, then how can you be sure you aren't harming other people, much less that you have the consent of the chick you're trying to fuck?

Prime example of self-tripping:
http://wondergressive.com/death-solved-by-vestigial-gland/

Of course the pineal gland is associated with the third eye of Shiva.

Quote from: surreptitious57 on August 28, 2015, 05:35:28 AM
Buddha instructed his students to assume nothing but question everything. This included his own teachings.

I don't know why some will bring this up as if it portays Buddhism as something reasonable and not full of woo when it is filled with supernatural woo. And by the way the Buddha did not really say such a thing. He asked them to test not question his teaching. In a nutshell he basically said is for his students to find out for themselves whether his Dharma works. Paul of Taurus pretty much said the same thing about his own teachings.

QuoteBuddhists
believe too that psychological dependence in the form of cravings lies at the heart of all human suffering. And that the
path to enlightenment is reached through eliminating such negative desires. And Jainists believe in the principle of non
violence to the point where they would rather lay down their own life than inflict any physical harm upon someone else
through self defence. These virtues are morally superior to the ones commonly associated with the Abrahamics.

Please define this "morally superior" bit.

QuoteBuddhists
do not even believe in God.

Tell that to the Dalai Lama. Buddhist do not believe in a creator god, it doesn't mean that they don't believe in gods as many Buddhists do beleive in gods and Devas and "Hungry Ghost".

QuoteSo comparing the two sets of religions is false equivalence. For they are not the same at all

Except where they are the same.

Well if you believe in pacifism .... then the Christians were pacifist until Constantine came along.  But since then, only individual Christians are pacifist ... not most of the sects.  In that way through most of its history, Buddhism has also been pacifist (but the Sangha only, the laity not so much) ... excepting periods that resemble Constantinian Rome.  Pacifist movements are usually considered treasonous.

Quote from: Baruch on August 28, 2015, 12:56:23 PM
Well if you believe in pacifism .... then the Christians were pacifist until Constantine came along.  But since then, only individual Christians are pacifist ... not most of the sects.  In that way through most of its history, Buddhism has also been pacifist (but the Sangha only, the laity not so much) ... excepting periods that resemble Constantinian Rome.  Pacifist movements are usually considered treasonous.

Pretty hysterical how much religious history is like a mattress commercial - they're just little lambs until the guy counts up a whole herd of sheep, which suddenly turns violent!

Numbers matter, if you are building an army.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on August 27, 2015, 12:39:31 PM
I don't need psychedelic experiences to live a full life of wonder and beauty. You don't either.

I beg to differ. How can you say you have a full life if you have never experienced psychedelics? Life is all about experiences, and the more experiences you have the more you have lived, bad or good. No experience = death.

Quote from: Solitary on August 28, 2015, 09:47:11 PM
I beg to differ. How can you say you have a full life if you have never experienced psychedelics? Life is all about experiences, and the more experiences you have the more you have lived, bad or good. No experience = death.

You haven't had a full life until you have experienced alzheimers, or some other form of dementia, but some things are best avoided altogether or delayed for as long as possible.

Also, if what you miss out on is not becoming one who thinks psychedelic art isn't ugly or horrific, and thinks that song lyrics are great pearls of wisdom...if your choice is to give all that shit up, then I would congratulate you on not becoming an obnoxious asshole! Just say'n.

Me, I can enjoy Hendrix without the dope, because my own imagination isn't too weak to do the rest.

Quote from: Baruch on August 27, 2015, 09:16:27 PM
Pharmacological cults are as old as religion.  Sharing mead and soma were used to propagate the migration of Indo-Europeans.  But all of this is just jiggering the molecules you already have in your brain.  You can generate your own trips without chemical assistance, just saying.

Quote from: Baruch on August 27, 2015, 09:16:27 PM
Pharmacological cults are as old as religion.  Sharing mead and soma were used to propagate the migration of Indo-Europeans.  But all of this is just jiggering the molecules you already have in your brain.  You can generate your own trips without chemical assistance, just saying.

I'm very surprised that you know this. I had a Hindu Shaman teach me how to meditate when I got interested in it after I told him I was an atheists. He told me I don't believe in God because I have never experienced God. So I gave it a try religiously because my partner at the time practiced Hindu rituals and we did it together. It took me three years of study under him to finally achieve transience practicing it every day for hours. It was an overwhelming feeling of being connected to everything in the universe. I have to say it changed my life dramatically, just like skydiving and Alpine skiing did. I had the same experience of being one with my car when younger racing at high speeds.

I have done psychedelic drugs, and anything I have experience on them I could do with meditation after I got very good at it. When I was an out patient at our local (no pun intended) mental hospital for problems I was having, they gave me an EEG and I decided to see what happens when I meditated. After about two minutes the nurse came in all excited because I flat lined the EEG. I watched her fiddling with the wires freaking out and I stopped. They brought in an expert from California to examined the results because they never saw this before except when someone is dead.

The doctor told them that it isn't flat lined, only very slow shallow brain waves, and the only time he has seen it before was in India. He asked me if I meditate. What is good about meditation rather than drugs is because you are still under control, where drugs you are not and can have a hellish experience. You can also when meditating, and if you have any hidden psychoses, it will present itself. I cured an overwhelming fear of death by going through hell to get to heaven by meditating. I believe this is probably the bases of the beginning of religion from drugs like Shrooms, peyote, and other "natural psychedelics like mold on rye bread.

Quote from: peacewithoutgod on August 28, 2015, 10:02:45 PM
You haven't had a full life until you have experienced alzheimers, or some other form of dementia, but some things are best avoided altogether or delayed for as long as possible.

Also, if what you miss out on is not becoming one who thinks psychedelic art isn't ugly or horrific, and thinks that song lyrics are great pearls of wisdom...if your choice is to give all that shit up, then I would congratulate you on not becoming an obnoxious asshole!

Me, I can enjoy Hendrix without the dope, because my own imagination isn't too weak to do the rest.

I have not did any illicit drugs for thirty years after I learned to meditate with my lover at the time. Some song lyrics are pearls of wisdom. By the way, our own body produces the most powerful psychedelic that music can evoke in us. Peace !

Quote from: Solitary on August 28, 2015, 10:34:36 PM
I have not did any illicit drugs for thirty years after I learned to meditate with my lover at the time. Some song lyrics are pearls of wisdom. By the way, our own body produces the most powerful psychedelic that music can evoke in us. Peace !

Yeah, I later modified the tone with "just say'n". No offense intended, it was more or less aimed at one specific dude who has made dialog with at very least myself rather unpleasant, and with whom I no longer care about offending for his particularly brash arrogance.

Also, you're right on some song lyrics, some which even I live by, although I would only feel like an idiot should it ever become my general mode of expressing myself.

Peace, out.

Peacewithoutgod ... yes, we are like fighting brothers ... we are that close ;-))  Takes arrogance to know arrogance ... but mine is chutzpah, thank you very much.  You need to be a disciple of a shaman perhaps.

Solitary ... well drugs were never my personal choice.  And I don't meditate much, but I can trance easily and shallowly.  For some years now my "monkey brain" has been sleeping off a truckload of bananas ;-)  Music and profound speech entrance me, animals entrance me.  Lots of things do that for me.  I am here and not here ... and I know you know what I mean.  The profound people I have read ... they have been my guru.  How special for you, that you had one in the flesh (double meaning, not child safe).

Quote from: Solitary on August 28, 2015, 10:34:36 PM
I have not did any illicit drugs for thirty years after I learned to meditate with my lover at the time. Some song lyrics are pearls of wisdom. By the way, our own body produces the most powerful psychedelic that music can evoke in us. Peace !

This person gets it, psychedelics can be a powerful catalyst for awakening but aren't necessary for everyone. 
(http://s14.postimg.org/wwwan57cf/capture.gif)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSZyMWyIhaU
Feel your creature behind your eyes,
between your ears, ethereal vibrations
It pulses, it pushes, it beats,
minds are battlefields
Resist to atomization, or fall into meaningless
one last chance to reconnect with the air

Wheel the sun
ABOVE THE UNWORTHY
slowly turning in unending circle
Wheel the sun
we're creeping backward
barely aware of ourselves

New thoughts of disruption,
altered visions, glimpse of reality
Inner devastating urge,
irrepressible search
of some more source of truth
Enlightens humanity's paths

Wheel the sun
ABOVE THE UNWORTHY
slowly turning in unending circle
Wheel the sun
we're creeping backward
barely aware of ourselves

Without voice, any critical removed
plundered words, waving in superstitions
Any further investigation denied
traditions never move, or die

We forgot the taste of light, lost in uselessness
reason anesthetized by overstimulated emotions
What a wonderful knowledge, we withered in decades
reason anesthetized by overstimulated emotions
Slowly hanged to the cranes of ego
reason anesthetized by overstimulated emotions
What a wonderful knowledge, we withered in decades
reason anesthetized by overstimulated emotions

Imperfect products, socially engineered
indoctrinated to disbelieve in future
Their end is a piece of art
Apathetic spectators of our own funeral
indoctrinated to disbelieve in future
The end is a piece of art

Wheel the sun
ABOVE THE UNWORTHY
slowly turning in unending circle
Wheel the sun
we're creeping backward
barely aware of ourselves

Traditions never move, or die
We are the origin of all evil

Quote from: Baruch on August 29, 2015, 09:49:49 AM
Peacewithoutgod ... yes, we are like fighting brothers ... we are that close ;-))  Takes arrogance to know arrogance ... but mine is chutzpah, thank you very much.  You need to be a disciple of a shaman perhaps.

?????!!!! Did you think my comment, which yours directly followed was referring to you? If so, you guessed wrong! Didn't even know we were "fighting" in this particular thread. Compared to one who soaks up cyber-reams with all the graphical nonsense with which he attempts to drown all intelligent thought, you are perfectly all right. Scroll just a little bit one way or the other and you'll know what I'm talking about.

Peacewithoutgod ... since I exist in both the past, the present, and the future .... how do you know which part of your writing I am referring to?  And holistically maybe to all of it?  Hmm?

Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 26, 2015, 10:18:13 PM

(http://sensiblereason.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/MHkcg-1.jpeg)

The look that New Age people have on their faces scares me. It is like they have been taken over by plant people.

Quote from: CrucifyCindy on August 29, 2015, 06:40:00 PM
The look that New Age people have on their faces scares me. It is like they have been taken over by plant people.

Creepy, isn't it?
***shudders***

Quote from: CrucifyCindy on August 29, 2015, 06:40:00 PM
The look that New Age people have on their faces scares me. It is like they have been taken over by plant people.

This was covered in Heinleins' Puppet Masters--she is one of them.

Quote from: jonb on August 24, 2015, 06:18:05 PM
Why is a raven like a writing-desk?


“Begin at the beginning," the King said, very gravely, "and go on till you come to the end: then stop.”

(http://131149352163792408.weebly.com/uploads/1/1/4/6/11464080/207361_orig.gif)

I think I just had a seizure! I though only strobe lights made me trippy. It's fun if I just go with it and don't pee my pants. Maybe I did, but I have a pad on just for that reason.

CrucifyCindy ... yes, vegetarians are the ultimate "you never expected this" threat.  Hitler was a vegetarian too.  It is the watermelon seeds you swallowed, they are still inside you!  Did you ever see the Japanese film, "Attack Of The Mushroom People" ... said to compete with "Attack Of The Killer Tomatoes" as worst film of all time.  But I have to admit, mushrooms are fungi ... maybe they are the overlords of the Pod People.

http://atheistforums.com/index.php?action=post;topic=8261.105;last_msg=1088593

In America, ketchup is considered a vegetable in the food triangle for school children ... maybe that is part of their diabolical plan!

The short answer atheists give is that they don't take Eastern Philosophy (religion, etc) seriously.  The best atheists can do is cherry pick and claim the rest of them are like this.  I don't think an Atheist would win an argument against them, so therefore would not bother trying to engage.

Hard to keep up with this guy's intellect. 

QuoteThe short answer atheists give is that they don't take Eastern Philosophy (religion, etc) seriously.

I think something get's lost in translation; as far as I know no atheist I've met has any issue with Eastern philosophy but rather Eastern mysticism. The morals I think most atheists would actually generally agree with, but the logics and logistics of how Eastern mysticism attempts to arrive at them are open to question, as it should be. No one should have to accept any one's word on how the world should be, and even the Buddha was reportedly strongly opposed to dogma.

Old thread but an interesting one.  I think the original post suggests that the poster didn't know a lot about atheism.