The other day, I heard someone preaching on TV about how the fact that the word "devil" turns into the word "evil" when you take the "D" away is proof that God exists.
Oh do fuck off.
Nothing you haven't heard before . The usual design inferences, ontological arguments (which are nothing more than semantic hoopla), moral arguments and what I can only call beyond stupid arguments, such as emotional arguments "That aching feeling you feel in your heart, you know it to be God reaching out to you", yeah right.
Every since the Bill Nye and Ken Ham event, this one image is one I can't get over.
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/gBs-CkxGXy8/hqdefault.jpg)
The question she asks along with the blank, thoughtless expression is the perfect picture for theism overall.
Its like.. I learned about the rotation of the earth and its position in the universe when i was five. A five year old is smarter then this woman..
I don't know if this is the stupidest one I heard, but it still is. "Their is beauty in the world is proof there is a God." Never mind that it is a non sequitur in logic and sound thinking. So, therefore, there is ugliness in the world is also proof of God, I told her.
I'm usually stumped by massive blanket statements like "God exists because the world is beautiful."
1. Beauty is relative.
2. Is there any meaning in beauty?
3. How can one account for ugly things?
I spent a very awkward 4th of July fending off my husband's aunt who seemed deeply baffled that I don't accept there is a God and kept asking how could I not wonder where I come from and why I was put on this earth. I pointed out to her that of course I wonder where I come from, but it seemed apparent that she had stopped wondering since she was glad to accept the idea that God did it. As to why I was put on this earth, I'm happy with the notion that there doesn't have to be a reason.
Then she went in for the sweeping statements about beauty, as though looking at the stars or the majesty of fireworks would convince me there is a God. It convinces me that the universe is full of elements and reactions, and nothing more.
In the end, she pulled my husband aside and made overtures about how he should reevaluate our marriage.
While nowhere near as childish as removing the 'D' from devil, my personal dumbest presented evidence list is topped by one in particular; Anecdotal evidence.
Example: "I was driving through Texas and on a whim skirted Houston to avoid traffic, only to break down a mile from the only shop in Texas that had my part in stock. How else could anyone interpret that but that it was God?"
Rare car, no parts manufactured for it, not a universal fit vehicle, blah blah blah. You're a lucky son of a [nice lady] who thanked your invisible friend for part checking all of Texas beforehand. I'm still an atheist.
"Satan put dinosaur bones in the ground to fool us."
Not an argument for God, but still stupid.
You can't see air and yet you believe it exists. . To which I say, "I can't see your asshole either, but yet you exist."
Quote from: Munch on July 06, 2015, 10:59:02 AM
Every since the Bill Nye and Ken Ham event, this one image is one I can't get over.
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/gBs-CkxGXy8/hqdefault.jpg)
"Their", lol
I think that image is concrete proof that there is no intelligent design
Quote from: Ace101 on July 06, 2015, 01:49:15 PM
This:
(sic)
HA! I'd forgotten that existed. Thank you! Such amusements.
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on July 06, 2015, 12:14:12 PM
"Satan put dinosaur bones in the ground to fool us."
Not an argument for God, but still stupid.
I just have to say that line in the most country bumpkin Hillbilly redneck voice I can do.
Numerology (666) and word tricks used to impress the yokels. For example the secret name of Roma (Rome) is Amor (Love). This was probably very persuasive of Christians of Pauline extraction or Johannine extraction.
It was standard belief in early modern Europe, once fossils came to be recognized as old bones .. that they were either remnants of Noah's Flood (something Aristotle believed in too ... but it was Deucalion's Flood for him). When this explanation got a little tired, then they ran out the "Devil's Trick" explanation. This wasn't overcome until modern geology was invented in the 1700s by Hutton.
Quote from: 1liesalot on July 06, 2015, 09:19:58 AM
The other day, I heard someone preaching on TV about how the fact that the word "devil" turns into the word "evil" when you take the "D" away is proof that God exists.
Oh do fuck off.
If God exists, and the devil is represented (typically) as a male... The only way to not have the devil be evil is to put the "D" in him. BOOM, what's your problem with gays now, Christians?!
(I mean, if we're gonna go with stretches of logic, might as well have fun with it)
God created man. Man exists. Therefore god exists.
The pic Munch posted -and the event- was a surprise for me. At first sight, I honestly thought she meant that the beauty of a sunset feels so 'divine', how can we doubt it. Yeah, well that was naive of me. :sad2:
Atheon - "God created man. Man exists. Therefore god exists." is typical circular logic theology. But better is ... "People collectively created gods. Gods exist. Therefore people collectively exist. However even if only as ideas, these gods create a feedback loop on the people ... which is aptly described by your statement ;-)
Quote from: Ace101 on July 06, 2015, 01:49:15 PM
This:
I remember the first time I saw that shit years ago and damn near died laughing.
"Because the Bible told me so."
Quote from: Solitary on July 06, 2015, 11:32:34 AM
I don't know if this is the stupidest one I heard, but it still is. "Their is beauty in the world is proof there is a God." Never mind that it is a non sequitur in logic and sound thinking. So, therefore, there is ugliness in the world is also proof of God, I told her.
What is ugly?
Quote from: TomFoolery on July 06, 2015, 11:39:53 AM
In the end, she pulled my husband aside and made overtures about how he should reevaluate our marriage.
I can imagine that sux. Outside influence on something you don't have control over is annoying. My sister married an atheist. I have told her many times that the Christian sticks at it. At the end of the day they chose you as you are. You chose your husband with his belief. I have a scripture you can give your aunt if she harasses you again.
Quote from: TomFoolery on July 07, 2015, 08:53:46 AM
Exactly. Things just are.
I don't believe
anything is ugly.
QuoteWhat is the best argument for the existence of God you ever heard?
What about a beating heart?
Music is proof of god.
A few others:
Of course god exists. How could he not exist?
Look at the trees!
Tide goes in, tide goes out.
The banana is just the right shape for the human mouth.
If god didn't exist, there would be no need for Jesus to die for our sins.
Quote from: Atheon on July 07, 2015, 01:09:46 PM
A few others:
Of course god exists. How could he not exist?
Look at the trees!
Tide goes in, tide goes out.
If god didn't exist, there would be no need for Jesus to die for our sins.
I like that last one, makes me smile!
Quote from: Atheon on July 07, 2015, 01:09:46 PM
A few others:
The banana is just the right shape for the human mouth.
Then what's the deal with watermelons?
Quote from: TomFoolery on July 07, 2015, 01:21:14 PM
Then what's the deal with watermelons?
"https://www.youtube.com/embed/0vmoZEaN_-o
Those are for CATS, duh....
Quote from: JBCuzISaidSo on July 07, 2015, 01:13:19 PM
I like that last one*, makes me smile!
Yup! When Christians say that, I congratulate them for debunking their own religion!
* If god didn't exist, there would be no need for Jesus to die for our sins.
KingJ is himself an argument for god.
What a lovely job he's done. :grin:
Now toss him in a lake of fire
KingJ ... circular logic this. I love to kill, so I should kill to maximize love? If shit is beautiful, then you are channeling a maggot perhaps? Please don't take this personally ... in nature everything has a purpose ... but I am biased ... I choose not to be a maggot, thanks.
Saying everything is beautiful is a nice way of putting gods stamp on everything. What about bone cancer? Or a stillborn baby? Or facial tumours? Are they beautiful?
This reminds me of the conversation on drunken peasants, where g-man made the same argument of God creating all things and loving all people, for TJ to bring up starving third world children, only for g-man to demand they show him a starving child to prove they exist.
Our calendar is based on the date of Jesus's birth, therefore god exists.
Even atheists say "Oh god!", therefore god exists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzeX15kXcxQ
Even Bill Clinton knows that there is more than one definition of "is". So of course, if someone says "Oh, God" then "God" exists ... but not necessarily in the same way you or I exist. I have seen Naruto in an anime, so I know he exists too. Just not in the way say ... John Locke (English philosopher) would say that you and I exist. Don't confuse perception with sensation. To a baby, a field of color is just that, because their perception hasn't developed yet ... but to you or I, it is a picture of a Playboy centerfold ;-) All we know is our perception ... and it isn't reliable ... nothing is (what definition of "is" did I use, hmm?). Skepticism is a powerful tool, but if used too much, you cut yourself and everyone else down to nothing, you have achieved nihilism not wisdom. Selective use of skepticism is necessary, yet biased.
The origin of the Western calendar is complicated, involving Vikings, Romans, Egyptians, Christians. Jews are independent of all that. Real atheists should use sidereal time (what astronauts use). It is out of this world ;-)
I find it obnoxious when people use the bible as proof or disproof of God. If there is one, I dont think he cares about if camels existed in such and such place at whatever time. And the silliest thing I have ever seen about religion in general is the cliche "how is there no God if people have seen heaven?"
Quote from: Baruch on July 08, 2015, 07:10:04 AM
Even Bill Clinton knows that there is more than one definition of "is". So of course, if someone says "Oh, God" then "God" exists ... but not necessarily in the same way you or I exist. I have seen Naruto in an anime, so I know he exists too. Just not in the way say ... John Locke (English philosopher) would say that you and I exist. Don't confuse perception with sensation. To a baby, a field of color is just that, because their perception hasn't developed yet ... but to you or I, it is a picture of a Playboy centerfold ;-) All we know is our perception ... and it isn't reliable ... nothing is (what definition of "is" did I use, hmm?). Skepticism is a powerful tool, but if used too much, you cut yourself and everyone else down to nothing, you have achieved nihilism not wisdom. Selective use of skepticism is necessary, yet biased.
The origin of the Western calendar is complicated, involving Vikings, Romans, Egyptians, Christians. Jews are independent of all that. Real atheists should use sidereal time (what astronauts use). It is out of this world ;-)
In other words (have I heard this somewhere????) everything in moderation?
I've actually heard this, and I think it must be about the stupidest argument for God ever:
1. The Bible is the word of God
2. The Bible says that God exists
3. Therefore, God exists.
Mike CL ... more like ... the condition of the baby is as much a part of who we are, as the condition of the adult. An adult is simply a highly developed baby.
Quote from: Baruch on July 08, 2015, 07:04:53 PM
Mike CL ... more like ... the condition of the baby is as much a part of who we are, as the condition of the adult. An adult is simply a highly developed baby.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.............moderately so, I guess.
Mike CL ... Ageism ... what have you got against babies?
Quote from: Baruch on July 09, 2015, 07:02:58 AM
Mike CL ... Ageism ... what have you got against babies?
Unlike puppies, babies I can do without. Or in small doses. And yes, I'm reverting back to my babyhood as I age--doesn't mean that acceptance=like.
Quote from: Munch on July 06, 2015, 10:59:02 AM
Every since the Bill Nye and Ken Ham event, this one image is one I can't get over.
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/gBs-CkxGXy8/hqdefault.jpg)
The question she asks along with the blank, thoughtless expression is the perfect picture for theism overall.
Its like.. I learned about the rotation of the earth and its position in the universe when i was five. A five year old is smarter then this woman..
Yeah, she looks so proud of her unassailable reply. "Checkmate, atheists!"
Mike CL ... you answered before I asked the question ... are we one mind in two bodies? That "atman" says we are.
Quote from: Baruch on July 09, 2015, 06:05:06 PM
Mike CL ... you answered before I asked the question ... are we one mind in two bodies? That "atman" says we are.
I think you will find that 'atman' knows all and sees all. :) And I've heard that fine thinks mind alike.................or something like that.
Quote from: Atheon on July 09, 2015, 10:39:32 AM
Yeah, she looks so proud of her unassailable reply. "Checkmate, atheists!"
Uhmmm..just watch a fan blade circling a ceiling fan slowly. .pretty much the same effect
all there arguments seem shallow and stupid to me so I don't know where to start.
How bout the universe being finely tuned for the thin film of life on one planet? Not that I don't think there is other life out there, there very well maybe we just don't know about it yet. Or some one's not telling.
Conspiracy theories begin!
The reason why present theory requires such ... questionable adjustments (cosmology) ... is because it isn't a very good theory. Optimists will say ... isn't a very good theory ... yet. As an anti-Pythagorean ... I say it is because equation kabuki doesn't always represent reality. I can come up with an equation, that is valid, and doesn't correspond with anything in nature.
If you happen to be less shallow and stupid than others ... remember that there is always a deeper and smarter person out there ... gunning for you ;-)
Present planetary observation, not theory ... demonstrates that there are countless planets out there, with quite a few of them hospitable for life similar to our own (liquid water based). The numbers would say we are not alone by any reasonable estimate.
http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegallery/image_feature_2233.html
The existence of other planets with intelligent life on them (will inevitably be found) ... it pretty much sets back Abrahamic religion by several billion years, since they are based on the notion that only Earth has life on it (in fact based on the notion of a flat Earth at the center of the universe ... but we will slide by that particular problem).
OK, I heard this one today:
1. Have you ever been in love? Yes? Then you know that love exists.
2. God is love.
3. Checkmate, atheists!
Quote from: 1liesalot on July 06, 2015, 09:19:58 AM
The other day, I heard someone preaching on TV about how the fact that the word "devil" turns into the word "evil" when you take the "D" away is proof that God exists.
Oh do fuck off.
actually ''evil'' etymologicly comes from ''eva''.
because she made adem to eat forbidden apple.
I hear this from Muslims most, usually in regards to intelligent design.
Basically, since man cannot make something, it must have been made by a divine power.
This is tied to creation "ex nihilo". Man can only rearrange things, not create them "ex nihilo". But if you don't need that metaphysics, then the argument is pretty weak. You can posit that something has always been, and just evolves. Big Bang not withstanding.
Quote from: JBCuzISaidSo on July 07, 2015, 01:12:17 PM
Even evil?
Free will is good, so the existence of evil is ironically 'not bad'.
Is God 'bad' for making such a great creation? One that is able to grasp the difference in motivation and desire from killing a fish instantly to letting it suffocate to death?
Gen 3:22 The man has now become like one of us,
knowing good and evil. ''Knowing'' evil does not make one evil. God chooses to not ''do'' evil.
Quote from: KingJ on July 13, 2015, 08:27:50 AM
Free will is good, so the existence of evil is ironically 'not bad'.
Is God 'bad' for making such a great creation? One that is able to grasp the difference in motivation and desire from killing a fish instantly to letting it suffocate to death?
Gen 3:22 The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. ''Knowing'' evil does not make one evil. God chooses to not ''do'' evil.
Round and round she goes and where she stops, nobody knows. This guy is not the Snake Oil Salesman, but his greatest customer!
Quote from: Munch on July 07, 2015, 08:01:59 PM
Saying everything is beautiful is a nice way of putting gods stamp on everything. What about bone cancer? Or a stillborn baby? Or facial tumours? Are they beautiful?
This reminds me of the conversation on drunken peasants, where g-man made the same argument of God creating all things and loving all people, for TJ to bring up starving third world children, only for g-man to demand they show him a starving child to prove they exist.
I would say something like the ebola virus is a proper argument. Cancer, still born babies and tumours are degression from centuries of incest and what not.
g-man demanded they show him starving children? Do you have a link for me?
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 13, 2015, 08:46:23 AM
Round and round she goes and where she stops, nobody knows. This guy is not the Snake Oil Salesman, but his greatest customer!
You would prefer God made you a monkey with no accountability? He is evil because you can choose to do evil?
Do you have thoughts to share or must I learn asap to overlook all your posts as simple minded personal insults?
Quote from: KingJ on July 13, 2015, 09:09:24 AM
You would prefer God made you a monkey with no accountability? He is evil because you can choose to do evil?
Do you have thoughts to share or must I learn asap to overlook all your posts as simple minded personal insults?
Round and round she goes and where she stops, nobody knows. This guy is not the Snake Oil Salesman, but his greatest customer!
Quote from: Baruch on July 07, 2015, 07:52:45 PM
KingJ ... circular logic this. 1. I love to kill, so I should kill to maximize love? 2. If shit is beautiful, then you are channeling a maggot perhaps? Please don't take this personally ... in nature everything has a purpose ... but I am biased ... I choose not to be a maggot, thanks.
1. Not sure which post of mine you qouting Baruch. A brain that sees murder as good is simply evidence of a brain in degression.
2. Beauty is always in the eye of the beholder. When we try and see the bigger picture we find that things don't just serve a purpose but rather that they are all very special creations.
Quote from: Baruch on July 06, 2015, 07:45:46 PM
Numerology (666) and word tricks used to impress the yokels. For example the secret name of Roma (Rome) is Amor (Love). This was probably very persuasive of Christians of Pauline extraction or Johannine extraction.
It was standard belief in early modern Europe, once fossils came to be recognized as old bones .. that they were either remnants of Noah's Flood (something Aristotle believed in too ... but it was Deucalion's Flood for him). When this explanation got a little tired, then they ran out the "Devil's Trick" explanation. This wasn't overcome until modern geology was invented in the 1700s by Hutton.
Speaking of the remnants of Noah's Flood, check this Fox News insanity out from about 25 seconds in. Trust me, it's worth it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=the4RDGQbI4
Yes ... but does any thought pass between the ears and the lips of talking heads? Clearly he wasn't speaking carefully ... but it was a Freudian slip of his mental world. Just like a kid mentioning Santa Claus in passing.
KingJ ... sorry if I misapprehended you. I still find G-d's creation appalling. For example a few Gentiles saved a few Jews during WW II ... but I find the idea that WW II was necessary for a little humanitarianism to manifest its cowardly self ... to be appalling. If G-d has a design, it is appalling.
Quote from: Baruch on July 13, 2015, 11:35:06 PM
Yes ... but does any thought pass between the ears and the lips of talking heads? Clearly he wasn't speaking carefully ... but it was a Freudian slip of his mental world. Just like a kid mentioning Santa Claus in passing.
KingJ ... sorry if I misapprehended you. I still find G-d's creation appalling. For example a few Gentiles saved a few Jews during WW II ... but I find the idea that WW II was necessary for a little humanitarianism to manifest its cowardly self ... to be appalling. If G-d has a design, it is appalling.
I find it likewise. Except, I take it a step further. I use this idea and the study of nature to inform me that there is no god. Nature is beautiful beyond words--and savage beyond all comprehension. No all knowing all doing entity could have allowed itself to have create such a monstrosity. Therefore, there is no god--this is all just what it is--random, following the rules of the physical universe. I don't believe in beginnings and endings, either, Baruch. I see this universe as simply a stage or part of a system that has been and always will be, continuing. So, this universe will have an end, just as it had a beginning. And life is eternal, in that it is inevitable with the mixture of chemical elements within each universe. We just have no idea where or why it manifests itself when or where it does. But mankind (myself included) hates not having a purpose or not knowing why we are here--so we keep inventing reasons, called gods, or G-D, or whatever. We need them for our sanity.
From observing the natural world and human world I would say the reason we are here is because of sex, and our purpose is to perpetuate our species with sex, and gay sex comes (no pun intended) along when it gets too crowded and not enough resources to save the species. After all even lesbians and gay men can still keep the species going if it is needed. There is no black and white gay and heterosexual people. If people get Horney enough they can use a vibrator or any object or animal that can get them off.
Quote from: Solitary on July 14, 2015, 11:38:44 AM
From observing the natural world and human world I would say the reason we are here is because of sex, and our purpose is to perpetuate our species with sex, and gay sex comes (no pun intended) along when it gets too crowded and not enough resources to save the species. After all even lesbians and gay men can still keep the species going if it is needed. There is no black and white gay and heterosexual people. If people get Horney enough they can use a vibrator or any object or animal that can get them off.
So0, what I'm trying to say is that there is no difference between the natural world and the human world. There is only one universe--the physical one. The only purpose our biology gives us is to create more of us. But it does not include nor preclude anything else. 'Nature' does not really care if we, as a species, live or die. Life will go on--which nature does not care about either. Nature is the ultimate neutral force there is. As a species we live or we die--up to us--we just have to do it within the natural laws that are within this universe.
Quote from: Baruch on July 10, 2015, 08:58:07 PM
This is tied to creation "ex nihilo". Man can only rearrange things, not create them "ex nihilo". But if you don't need that metaphysics, then the argument is pretty weak. You can posit that something has always been, and just evolves. Big Bang not withstanding.
Indeed, the b.b. may just be the most recent of an eternal, periodic phenomenon that has been happening for an infinite time.
Or, it may not. :think:
Quote from: KingJ on July 14, 2015, 03:41:15 AM
We know the bible is the word of God by reading it. Lateral thought goes a long way in proving its authenticity for me.
Kingj contributing to this thread.
The only one that really annoys me is the one that boils down to "But... but... but rainbows! Puppies! Meadowlarks!" I expect nonsense from those who take the bible literally; the people who resort to the argument that, essentially, since beauty exists so does god, always fail to mention anglerfish (http://deepseacreatures.org/anglerfish), the zombie ant fungus (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/03/pictures/110303-zombie-ants-fungus-new-species-fungi-bugs-science-brazil/), or the naked mole rat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naked_mole_rat).
trdsf ... but they make sense if they aggregate all the good to G-d and either sweep the bad under the rug, or ascribe it to the Devil. But of course unfair and innumerate. Dualism is an implied "get out of Hell free" card for G-d.
Thee are good things to human life ... but ascribing it to Nature or to G-d is a separate question.
Quote from: Baruch on July 13, 2015, 11:35:06 PM
Yes ... but does any thought pass between the ears and the lips of talking heads? Clearly he wasn't speaking carefully ... but it was a Freudian slip of his mental world. Just like a kid mentioning Santa Claus in passing.
KingJ ... sorry if I misapprehended you. I still find G-d's creation appalling. For example a few Gentiles saved a few Jews during WW II ... but I find the idea that WW II was necessary for a little humanitarianism to manifest its cowardly self ... to be appalling. If G-d has a design, it is appalling.
So true. Just think about it. If there was a deity, then based on the available evidence, would that deity be more likely to be benevolent or malignant? I am afraid it's the latter.
Go to the head of the class! But I would shed a small tear of optimism ... "not completely malignant". I don't mind when a shark tears into a seal ... but I do feel for both the shark and the seal. Human existence is only slightly better. At least sharks don't have to deal with roaming charges on cell phone bills ... that requires true malevolence ;-)
Two blokes claiming bananas are proof of God's existence. Watch from abolut 9:35 in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3Uz7aC5o_Wg#t=569
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z-OLG0KyR4
I could use this same argument for how the banana fits so perfectly up my back end and touches my sweet spot. Although the amazing atheist already did this.
I have used that argument about gay sex, that if gay sex isn't 'natural' according to theists, why then does it fit so nicely up there, and even is the right length to hit a mans prostate?
Quote from: Munch on July 22, 2015, 07:24:24 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z-OLG0KyR4
I could use this same argument for how the banana fits so perfectly up my back end and touches my sweet spot. Although the amazing atheist already did this.
I have used that argument about gay sex, that if gay sex isn't 'natural' according to theists, why then does it fit so nicely up there, and even is the right length to hit a mans prostate?
Indeed.
This link is to the documentary "Friends of God", which was a precursor of Jesus Camp and it's every bit as creepy. About 13 minutes in, a large room of kids are being subjected to Christian lies about how dinosaurs did not walk the earth because the word dinosaur appears nowhere in the bible. This proves evolution is wrong and the dinosaurs were made up by evil-doing atheists who hate God. Later in the clip, they all sing a song about it.... the dinosaurs I mean.
A horrifying watch and proof positive that these people are pathetic delusionals willing to trash the lives of their kids in the name of a non existent deity. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzjUtcYBWgY&index=4&list=PLvNBSHOOHXbbZgOh5IrX_K1-XPR9tWDJg
The Big Brother advertisement for the original Mac ... comes in many forms before and afterward. Or the hyenas in Lion King.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYecfV3ubP8
Who knew Gen. Wesley Clark was in charge in 1984?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K6lFYU0-XM
The venue of large numbers of people acting in synchrony is the trick ... hence megachurches and Promise Keepers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6WMXd8ZqmM ... politics is a kind of religion
Hm, let me make up an argument, you tell me how stupid it is. Mind, this may be an argument for God, but it is NOT an argument for a BENEVOLENT God.
The amount of concentrated stupidity in Rick Santorum is so great, that the odds of such incredibly stupidity passing on and being refined through multiple generations approach zero. This indicates that there must be some sort of intelligent designer actively protecting and enhancing the stupidity that Rick Santorum becomes possible.
Quote from: Baruch on July 13, 2015, 11:35:06 PM
Yes ... but does any thought pass between the ears and the lips of talking heads? Clearly he wasn't speaking carefully ... but it was a Freudian slip of his mental world. Just like a kid mentioning Santa Claus in passing.
.
No, I think he meant it. Around the time that the remark was passed, there had been headline reports on Fox News about how some Japanese archaeologists were claiming they located the ark at the top of a mountain. They brought relics down with them and said it was 90% certain that this was the real deal and these relics genuinely came from the Ark. It was bullshit but Fox News fell for it at first Eventually, though, the purported boat finders turned their newly found artefacts over for scientists to test and it turned out to be a hoax (surprise surprise). Still, you can easily picture some of the more stupid Fox News Jesus Freaks refusing to believe that the ark wasn't up there up there and had indeed been found. Desperation and delusion can make a p;erson believe a lot of shit that can't possibly be true. But they shouldn't let those people loose in a news room
Jason ... brilliant diatribe ;-)
This story really made me laugh. Outside a church in California, on its grounds, there was a tree. When an elderly woman touched the tree, she felt a liquid rain down on her, and believed it was Jesus' tears, and by praying to the tree, Jesus would rain down tears on you and bless you.
So all Catholics from around came to receive the blessing, putting hands on the tree and making 'tears' rain down on them.
It was only until a man investigated the tree under a microscope, and investigated the same species of tree in the area, that he found out, the trees, due to the hot season, where infested with tree lice, who ate the trees sap, and excreted out of there abdomens.
So quite literally, the Catholics were being shit on.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/ellievhall/people-worship-weeping-tree-in-california-tears-are-actually#.foAp0ed8J
One has to admire Hitler for being able to get so powerful and control the minds of so many people to not question his authority. He started them young in obedience to authority to worship the State, be a bigot, and used hatred and fear for his convenience, just like politicians still do, and the Church has from day one. Bush and his cohorts used the same methods to get us into a non ending war, where people are willing to kill or die for the State. Do we ever learn from the past?
Hitler wasn't Catholic by conviction, but he had plenty of Catholic and Lutheran raw material to work with ;-( Hitler was a catalyst working an existing unstable social situation.
No, people learn nothing from history, because history is just propaganda anyway. But this is because one generation follows another ... just as Americans learned that Vietnam was a bad idea ... the children of that generation are like ... what does Pops know! So now we have a corporation profit war all over again (that is what Vietnam was all about, and so was Iraq in 2003 etc). Prosperity came to the US after WW II started ... now if we could just start WW III, it would be "happy days are here again".
The absolute bottom line for me isn't just that people make stupid arguments for God' existence but that they make equally stupid arguments about how such a deity is worthy of perpetual worship, When it's clear that He is an idiot and a sociopath.
Just ran into this
"Words have no meaning unless there is an outside authority to give it meaning"
Quote from: Termin on July 29, 2015, 03:21:11 PM
Just ran into this
"Words have no meaning unless there is an outside authority to give it meaning"
Wow! That is like, man, sooooo, uhh, cerebral man............................like, wow..................and pass the joint again.......................
Termin ... assume you deadpanned a quote as satire that matches the string title?
As for me, I am a grownup so I don't have to accept anyone's damned authority. I like “When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean â€" neither more nor less.’
And Humpty-Dumpty was a hard boiled egg, he was.
Quote from: 1liesalot on July 27, 2015, 11:56:18 AM
The absolute bottom line for me isn't just that people make stupid arguments for God' existence but that they make equally stupid arguments about how such a deity is worthy of perpetual worship, When it's clear that He is an idiot and a sociopath.
You keep this up and I'm going to have to give an atheist heathenish statute. I'm not joking!
I'd have to go with "Without god, there would be no morality. People could rape all they wanted to."
NakedTracyBlack ... They also argue, that without the State, people would rape all they wanted to. Are you open to rejecting that one too? Traditionally some god stood behind both State and religion.
The argument from morality doesn't establish the state, either.
Quote from: NakedTracyBlack on July 30, 2015, 12:05:02 AM
I'd have to go with "Without god, there would be no morality. People could rape all they wanted to."
I think it is more fair to say that because
some people believe in God and the idea of going to Hell, they don't rape people. They are still Christian rapists obviously, and I don't know how much God is a deterrent to that. But there are plenty of people who don't believe in God and aren't rapists, so your argument that without God people would be raping all they wanted to is a little insulting.
Quote from: TomFoolery on July 30, 2015, 08:17:15 AM
I think it is more fair to say that because some people believe in God and the idea of going to Hell, they don't rape people. They are still Christian rapists obviously, and I don't know how much God is a deterrent to that. But there are plenty of people who don't believe in God and aren't rapists, so your argument that without God people would be raping all they wanted to is a little insulting.
TomFollery, Tracy was agreeing with you--he put that under the title of 'stupid comments'. Then Baruch had to muddy the waters with his 'state keeps us from raping' comment. :) Even if not appropriate in this spot, I'll say that, raping is not the default state of humankind. I don't there there would be wholesale raping without either god or state.
I think I was thinking this was a different thread when I read that and was like... what?! But yes, I should apologize.
Quote from: TomFoolery on July 30, 2015, 09:01:04 AM
I think I was thinking this was a different thread when I read that and was like... what?! But yes, I should apologize.
Ya know what?-----My fingers were poised over my keyboard to slam out a response to that post as well, then I reread the thread and stopped. :)) Sometimes I just have to tell myself to 'slow down', at times. :)
Sorry, yeah, that was meant to be filed under "stupid argument". That without god there would be no morality. There is morality, ergo there is god.
I think it should be their are delusional human beings with imagination, ergo God.
Mike CL ... the difficulty is ... responding to general title of thread? vs responding to point made by previous (named or unnamed) poster? This is purely technical. But the question of morality is bigger than just a big daddy in the sky. My question was narrowly rhetorical, and answered adequately by one poster. The general morality question fits best on another existing string, but we both know that.
Quote from: Baruch on July 30, 2015, 06:45:57 AM
NakedTracyBlack ... They also argue, that without the State, people would rape all they wanted to. Are you open to rejecting that one too? Traditionally some god stood behind both State and religion.
I reject that one too. Too many atheists are actually statethiests.
Quote from: Jason_Harvestdancer on July 30, 2015, 08:50:07 PM
I reject that one too. Too many atheists are actually statethiests.
If only you could bash your nation as easily as you can religion. Sometimes the penalties are just as harsh.
Quote from: Baruch on July 29, 2015, 08:16:54 PM
Termin ... assume you deadpanned a quote as satire that matches the string title?
As for me, I am a grownup so I don't have to accept anyone's damned authority. I like “When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean â€" neither more nor less.’
And Humpty-Dumpty was a hard boiled egg, he was.
Actually it was a direct quote from a discussion that initially was simply about the meaning of words, the discussion trailed off after that , and I did little to keep it serious or on track as... well I was just so flummoxed by such a statement I honestly didn't have a great reply.
Termin ... then I read you correctly. Thanks for taking the time to confirm that.
Whenever I listen to someone giving reasons for their faith, I can't help thinking that the whole thing necessitates a sort of wilful delusion. It's a deliberated, calculated suspension of all reason.
Reason can be over-rated. But like water in a desert, it shouldn't be willfully ignored either.
Because a tornado just cannot leave a new Boeing in its wake from the scrap metal which it sucks up.
Checkmate!
NENENENENENNEENNENEENNENENNENENENNNENNENENNENENNENENENNENENEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: 1liesalot on July 31, 2015, 03:24:44 PM
Whenever I listen to someone giving reasons for their faith, I can't help thinking that the whole thing necessitates a sort of wilful delusion. It's a deliberated, calculated suspension of all reason.
I find the same thing. But if you listen closely, theists seldom use the word 'reason'--the substitute 'belief'. Their 'faith' is informed by belief and not reason. Using the word reason intimates that there are some facts behind what they are saying. Instead, the deeper you probe into their beliefs, you will find not reasons, but beliefs. And it ends up being, as you say, willful ignorance. And that is what faith is, a form of blindness and the most deeply faithful as simply insane.
Quote from: NakedTracyBlack on July 30, 2015, 10:47:01 AM
Sorry, yeah, that was meant to be filed under "stupid argument". That without god there would be no morality. There is morality, ergo there is god.
There is evolution, therefore there is morality.
Quote from: Baruch on July 31, 2015, 06:31:58 PM
Reason can be over-rated. But like water in a desert, it shouldn't be willfully ignored either.
Reason is overrated? How? Do you have reasons for saying that? If this world doesn't need more reason, then how is it good when people are unreasonable?
An article where they took Hebrew letters , had someone speak them, and then use some computer program to create an image of the sound, and because they "thought" the images looked similar to what appeared , this is proof of God.
The fact that there are hundreds of fonts that can be used, every person speaks in a different manner (pitch, accent etc) , and any computer representation can be manipulate to show whatever you want didn't occur to them.
http://absolutetruth613.blogspot.ca/2012/06/seeing-sounds.html
Termin ... neo-Kabbalah. Not unlike New Age spirituality of the 70s. Actual Kabbalah with Hebrew letters is a form of numerology and contemplation in the network of the Sephirot. But that was Jewish New Age ... of 1000 years ago.
Peacewithoutgood ... actual reason or the usual incompetent variety? Most people use it rhetorically ... as "I am reasonable and you are unreasonable". Actual deductive logic is something else entirely. The Nazis for instance were entirely reasonable ... and entirely bad. Predatory nations and individuals are perfectly reasonable in a Darwinian fashion. Anything that secures resources and breeding stock is a win. Being good comes from EQ, not IQ. Compassion isn't reasonable or profitable. Being intelligent and compassionate would be the very best. Intelligence without compassion just makes a more dangerous opponent. The world needs more heart, before it needs more brains.
Mike CL ... see above. The most deeply ideological are also the most insane.
Quote from: Baruch on August 13, 2015, 06:09:13 PM
The world needs more heart, before it needs more brains.
Without a doubt.
Quote from: Baruch on August 13, 2015, 06:09:13 PM
Peacewithoutgood ... actual reason or the usual incompetent variety? Most people use it rhetorically ... as "I am reasonable and you are unreasonable". Actual deductive logic is something else entirely. The Nazis for instance were entirely reasonable ... and entirely bad. Predatory nations and individuals are perfectly reasonable in a Darwinian fashion. Anything that secures resources and breeding stock is a win. Being good comes from EQ, not IQ. Compassion isn't reasonable or profitable. Being intelligent and compassionate would be the very best. Intelligence without compassion just makes a more dangerous opponent. The world needs more heart, before it needs more brains.
Godwin Alert!
You have proven to be perfectly devious when it comes to tossing red herrings into this forum while beating your straw-men. Reason is how things can be explained, that's all. The Nazi regime lacked compassion, but their reason had nothing to do with this - it was their hatred by which they formed and applied their evil social policies against the Jews and other groups. They had the scientific reason which gave them the power to harm those who they hated, but what they lacked was the reason which would have shown them those people for who they really are. Reason would impelled them to settle their differences with those who they made enemies of peacefully, and reason sure didn't apply when they decided to go to war against the whole world to sate their hatred.
We agree, history is replete with Grinches whose hearts are two sizes too small, and who generate chaos with a worse ending than the day after Christmas in Whoville. Alas life is not like a video game, where even if bad moves can't be taken back, you have additional lives to wager. Without science though, the Nazis would have only had rocks to throw ... they scared off some scientists, but others remained who could have turned the tide if they had but more time.
Quote from: Baruch on August 14, 2015, 08:21:47 PM
We agree, history is replete with Grinches whose hearts are two sizes too small, and who generate chaos with a worse ending than the day after Christmas in Whoville. Alas life is not like a video game, where even if bad moves can't be taken back, you have additional lives to wager. Without science though, the Nazis would have only had rocks to throw ... they scared off some scientists, but others remained who could have turned the tide if they had but more time.
Without science, you would have been forced to take a job and work for a living, and nobody would have tolerated your pervasive tendency to try and fuck with everybody's heads.
Nobody is as wrong as those with a strong opinion ;-)
(http://philippinefailblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/oh-no-ive-gone-cross-eyed.jpg)
Really you two, this seems to be leading to a 'agree to disagree' thing.
Peacewithoutgod ... seems to be an impassioned person, and a bit too focused on me as an individual, and perhaps confused on the difference between what someone says rhetorically, and who is actually saying it. That being said ... I am cool. I am also impassioned, but I play this like chess, not like rodeo.
Quote from: Baruch on August 15, 2015, 06:24:35 AM
Peacewithoutgod ... seems to be an impassioned person, and a bit too focused on me as an individual, and perhaps confused on the difference between what someone says rhetorically, and who is actually saying it. That being said ... I am cool. I am also impassioned, but I play this like chess, not like rodeo.
You shouldn't be here to play games. Only trolls come to forums such as this one to play games and fuck with other people. I honestly don't believe that you believe half of the shit which you have said over the past 48 hours, you pull outrageous shit straight out of your ass for no better purpose than to be a contrarian PIA. Case in point: arguing that too much reason builds deadly weapons and starts wars.
As for your thoughts on me personally, they don't deserve responding to.
Lot of us figured that out ourselves Baruch, its why we enjoy you being around here. Maybe because PWG is still new he's yet to realize it, but it happens in time
I am so hurt! Ouch ... that snowflake was a bruiser ;-) So is this turning into Junior High or what? This is a game? Where are the cheerleaders?
Most of what I post is exactly how I think/feel. I put my integrity right out on the highway, like that ancient video game, Frogger. Sometimes I get across what I am saying, sometimes I get flattened by a Peterbuilt. But in a video game you just have to put in another quarter to keep playing.
Quote from: Baruch on August 15, 2015, 07:08:11 AM
I am so hurt! Ouch ... that snowflake was a bruiser ;-) So is this turning into Junior High or what? This is a game? Where are the cheerleaders?
Most of what I post is exactly how I think/feel. I put my integrity right out on the highway, like that ancient video game, Frogger. Sometimes I get across what I am saying, sometimes I get flattened by a Peterbuilt. But in a video game you just have to put in another quarter to keep playing.
LOL - your "integrity"! Good one!
Junior high games typically involve saying something stupid first (e.g. you, paraphrased [I play this like a game]), and then try and punk the other guy by accusing him of "starting it". No, I correct myself, most junior high kids are too mature for that.
You don't want to know what we called cherry cobbler back in the day in Junior High ;-) You don't "get me" and I get that.
I wouldn't say there was any "single stupidest" reason I have ever heard. I would have to say the answer to the question for me would be "ANYTHING in the Watchtower". I have a friend who has been trying to convert me for years and I've tried to read a few of the articles, but every one of them is the same. They start with the assumption that God is real or the Bible is truth then use that to prove that you can really get to Heaven and, if you can really get to Heaven that certainly proves that God is real, right? It's circular logic at its dumbest. Essentially the reason for believing that God is real is this: For the sake of this argument, let's assume God is real. Now, given that God is real, the Bible is truth, right? Okay. Well, the Bible says right here that God is real and there's your proof!
Also, anywhere there's a '...' in a Watchtower I've learned to look for the part of the quote they've cut out which makes the quote say exactly the OPPOSITE of what they're portraying it as saying.