So, my facebook has been going crazy lately with conservatives defending some idiot who assaulted a guy who was burning the American flag. The reasons varied from, "BECAUSE AMERICA, DUH!" to, "HE WAS A COMMUNIST, HE DESERVES IT!"... so this was my response. I am curious as to what people here feel about flag burning. I am not a fan of it, but simply because it causes more harm than good (and that is only because people refuse to think rationally about it).
QuoteAmericans, protip; The United States Supreme Court (refresher; the supreme law of the land) declared in 1989 (Texas v. Johnson) that the act of flag burning is a Constitutionally protected right.
So when you encourage... no, gleefully cheer for... assault (a criminal misdemeanour at best, felony at worst) of a peaceful protester, just realize that you are saying you have no respect for either the Supreme Court's rulings or the Constitution, which is what makes up the backbone of America's freedom and democracy. Nor do you have respect for the common laws of the land, because again... assault is a felony.
But lets take cold hard facts out of it; when someone burns a flag, they do it 99% of the time as a sign of disrespect for a country that does not live up to its ideals... a disrespect towards a government that is not for or protecting it's people, or a people who do not practice what they preach in regards to tolerance and freedom. They aren't doing it to disrespect what America stands for, they are doing it because America doesn't respect what it is suppose to stand for.
And even if you are offended... that does *not* give you an excuse to therefor commit a crime. That isn't how this whole freedom of speech and "America" thing you want to hoorah about works. All you are doing is spitting on what American soldiers fought and died for.
So... "If you don't like it, leave!". You have no respect for the Supreme Court, the Constitution, the American military who fought and died to protect the rights of free speech (regardless of if you find it offensive or not) and want to commit a crime... I have to ask, why do you hate America so much?
Quote from: Shiranu on July 03, 2015, 07:53:30 PM
So, my facebook has been going crazy lately with conservatives defending some idiot who assaulted a guy who was burning the American flag. The reasons varied from, "BECAUSE AMERICA, DUH!" to, "HE WAS A COMMUNIST, HE DESERVES IT!"... so this was my response. I am curious as to what people here feel about flag burning. I am not a fan of it, but simply because it causes more harm than good (and that is only because people refuse to think rationally about it).
I like your response--that's about what I'd say. If we indeed, do have free speech, then flag burning is free speech.
Yeah. I don't respond positively to someone's message when it involves flag burning. But, I'd probably just walk on by ignoring what they're doing instead of punching a hippie...
But, yeah. It's speech. It's protected. It points out that whatever message that they have doesn't stand on its own merit and requires doing something that pisses people off and gets on the news.
As long as the flag was his own property, and he wasn't using the burning flag to physically hurt someone , then he has a right to burn it, no matter how stupid an act it is.
Its just warped Republicans getting their panties in a knot
Quote from: kilodelta on July 04, 2015, 12:12:12 AM
Yeah. I don't respond positively to someone's message when it involves flag burning. But, I'd probably just walk on by ignoring what they're doing instead of punching a hippie...
I think burning an American flag is obviously one of the boldest form of political statements anyone can make, one that obviously isn't going to sit well with a lot of people. Americans
do love their symbols. If you're looking for a reaction, that's about the fastest way I could think one could get it, short of slow roasting a bald eagle on a rotisserie over the flag's flames. But as far as reaction-seeking, that's a tactic of toddlers and bratty kids. I don't really care about the flag itself, but burning it just inspires reactionary propaganda on both sides. It's not effective.
Their message in my opinion
does stand on its own merit. They were there to demonstrate for the Charleston victims and those killed by racist violence in America. I could think of far more powerful ways of protest on such a serious subject than something that was bound to instantly turn into rage and tear-filled screaming before it ever even started.
Quote from: TomFoolery on July 04, 2015, 07:00:59 AM
I think burning an American flag is obviously one of the boldest form of political statements anyone can make, one that obviously isn't going to sit well with a lot of people. Americans do love their symbols. If you're looking for a reaction, that's about the fastest way I could think one could get it, short of slow roasting a bald eagle on a rotisserie over the flag's flames. But as far as reaction-seeking, that's a tactic of toddlers and bratty kids. I don't really care about the flag itself, but burning it just inspires reactionary propaganda on both sides. It's not effective.
Their message in my opinion does stand on its own merit. They were there to demonstrate for the Charleston victims and those killed by racist violence in America. I could think of far more powerful ways of protest on such a serious subject than something that was bound to instantly turn into rage and tear-filled screaming before it ever even started.
Great points.
Wait. .I thought that the conservatives in large favor secession especially in Texas and South Carolina and if so they should be thrilled by American flag burning. .
Sayyyyy...something fishy's going on. .:think:
IDK about my own country's laws other than some (rather stupid) broad interpretation that you shall respect the nations flag and not "devalue" it (from Fareose: tú skalt virða Merkið og ikki óneyðturviliga niðurseta Merkið) or somesuch.
To me it's just a piece of cloth, nothing more, nothing less, that just so happens to represent my nationality.
If only we still had the white winged warrior to strike terror in the hearts of evil criminals everywhere. .
https://youtu.be/KgMOOPxkYVk
I'll never get why people get so offended by flag burning. It's exactly the same thing with muslims being offended by mohammed drawings.
Flag-burning is a message of anger, possibly hate. It's not something a rational person who is completely emotionally stable does to get their message across. It is not the way I, personally, would like any message I believed in to be emphasized.
That being said, you are only truly free if you are free to do things you would never consider doing. If you would consider doing anything and everything you have a right to do then you're really just a content prisoner to the system. Burn a flag to get your point across and I am far less likely to consider your gripe or care about it if I do, but I celebrate your right to do so. It's not like it's a holy relic or anything. It's just a piece of whatever the plastic equivalent of cloth is. Nylon, I think? And if you think you're somehow helping America by buying and burning flags made in China I can't help it, I just have to chuckle a little. But whatever helps you vent some stress and get some sleep that night, while it does nothing for me, hopefully it's therapeutic for flag-burners.
Quote from: Sal1981Wait. .I thought that the conservatives in large favor secession especially in Texas and South Carolina....
Do you even realize what we could get done in this country if we just dumped the South altogether? Of course if we cut all of our carbon emissions it still wouldn't be enough to offest what they would output after they got rid of the EPA and anything else standing in the way of big business. And there's the fact that their corporate overlords would bankrupt their new country in two decades by filling their own pockets indiscriminately and we'd have to take them back. But still, those couple of decades where we would have to tune into international news to hear the crazy rantings of high-ranking politicians and up-and-coming political candidates would be magical.
I live in America, and with very limited travel abroad it's still plain to see how weird a place this is. In school, we were taught to treat a piece of cloth with more dignity than our classmates! Every day students are expected to rise before classes begin, and recite an obsessive, droning pledge to that piece of cloth, like some kind of a prayer (and have been forced into that often enough, legal or not). We could see what a shock it was to exchange students who witness this ritual for the first time. We all stood facing it in the corner with hand held over our little hearts, and between that and the former standard American flag-pledging gesture of standing with hands strait out and up like the Hitler Youth, I'm not really sure which is more creepy. As for me, I'll try and respect those who do what they can to make this country worth living in, but don't expect me to go anywhere out of my way for any rag, regardless of what you choose to call it. If you ask me to carry one for you, I may comply, but don't expect me to make any fuss over keeping it from ever grazing the ground, or giving it a protracted fiery funeral in the case that such a "horror" should happen. All that said, pissing on something which is important to other people and burning it in public is no less pointless and stupid a stunt as the glorious flag rituals which the dumbest Americans teach this country's children to fret over. I believe in free expression, and I believe in your right to express yourself that way if you feel that you must, but I still don't think it's a good idea. When you bait a mob into attacking you, and then you get what you asked for, I can only be hard-pressed to say you didn't have it coming.
(http://absurdishliberationarmy.weebly.com/uploads/1/1/4/6/11464080/9564786_orig.gif)
My flag is the transparent flag.
But in all honesty I don't know why people get so het up about coloured cloth. I know they do, I watch American programmes with little flags appearing all over the place, but I don't understand it at all.
(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll236/jonber/I-am-charlie_zpscnfoqsvm.gif)
Like anything that is done to elicit a response. Your right to do that will not necessarily prevent someone from drop kicking your ass. Very much like a restraining order really protects someone.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 05, 2015, 03:26:17 PM
I'll never get why people get so offended by flag burning. It's exactly the same thing with muslims being offended by mohammed drawings.
I think if people get offended by people spending their own money on buying a flag and then burning it, they need to sort their priorities out.
Personally I'm not really sure why people get so attached to a flag but I guess it's got something to do with patriotism, which equally I find bizarre. Like nationalists who pander to the lowest common denominator of otherism. It's pathetic, really.
Quote from: widdershins on August 24, 2015, 02:37:15 PM
Do you even realize what we could get done in this country if we just dumped the South altogether? Of course if we cut all of our carbon emissions it still wouldn't be enough to offest what they would output after they got rid of the EPA and anything else standing in the way of big business. And there's the fact that their corporate overlords would bankrupt their new country in two decades by filling their own pockets indiscriminately and we'd have to take them back. But still, those couple of decades where we would have to tune into international news to hear the crazy rantings of high-ranking politicians and up-and-coming political candidates would be magical.
Without the south in the picture, I bet we would be a first-rate, functional democracy at this point. Single-payer healthcare, strict gun control, stellar infrastructure including high-speed rail, strong union membership and labor laws, constitutional guarantees of rights for LGBT individuals, women, minorities, and the right to vote, publicly-funded campaigns, no military industrial complex, presidential election by popular vote, possibly proportional senate repesentation, decriminalized/legal drugs. I could go on and on. Just my little fantasy.
You would also lose huge chunks of your infrastructure, your largest provider of oil, your largest military installations, your largest science installations (bye bye, NASA!)... largest sea ports, your border for easy and cheap labour, a large amount of farm land (and lets be honest; the Midwest is as backwards as the South, so you gotta cut out the rest of the bread basket as well if you want to get rid of the crazy)... several of the best tourist locations in the U.S. (so less revenue there), your "American" cars will now have to be imported so drive the price of them up... as well as again the resources to create them so there goes the prices even higher...
I could go on, but the South is a large part of why the United States can at all even try to stay relevant. And sorry, but New England has it's fair-share of bullshit too; or did I miss the memo where asswipes like Chris Christie and Rudy Gulliani were actually elected by Southerners?
Quote from: Shiranu on August 30, 2015, 12:48:56 AM
You would also lose huge chunks of your infrastructure, your largest provider of oil, your largest military installations, your largest science installations (bye bye, NASA!)... largest sea ports, your border for easy and cheap labour, a large amount of farm land (and lets be honest; the Midwest is as backwards as the South, so you gotta cut out the rest of the bread basket as well if you want to get rid of the crazy)... several of the best tourist locations in the U.S. (so less revenue there), your "American" cars will now have to be imported so drive the price of them up... as well as again the resources to create them so there goes the prices even higher...
I could go on, but the South is a large part of why the United States can at all even try to stay relevant. And sorry, but New England has it's fair-share of bullshit too; or did I miss the memo where asswipes like Chris Christie and Rudy Gulliani were actually elected by Southerners?
You are correct, splitting up the country now would have major consequences for both, but I believe the south would be much worse off. Above, I was talking about what the country would be like if the south had either never been a part of it, or had seperated a long time ago. The north would then have developed their own space program, etc. in northern teritory.
There are bound to be douchebag politicians whereever you look, but thats nothing compared to the bible-thumping backward culture of the south.
Quote from: platatomi on August 30, 2015, 01:11:49 AM
You are correct, splitting up the country now would have major consequences for both, but I believe the south would be much worse off. Above, I was talking about what the country would be like if the south had either never been a part of it, or had seperated a long time ago. The north would then have developed their own space program, etc. in northern teritory.
There are bound to be douchebag politicians whereever you look, but thats nothing compared to the bible-thumping backward culture of the south.
Ah, okay.
I know people who honestly believe the South would be better off if it was to leave the Union, so I don't always know if people from the "other" places seriously feel the same way or no.
Quote from: Shiranu on August 30, 2015, 01:34:33 AM
Ah, okay.
I know people who honestly believe the South would be better off if it was to leave the Union, so I don't always know if people from the "other" places seriously feel the same way or no.
I think the problem with the South is that those former states were restored to the Union much too soon after their bloody secession. They should have been made Federal territories indefinitely, so that the cultural powers which influenced them could be taught the true value of inclusion in the US political system through long lessons without it, until they really earned it back.
I know its an American cultural thing to blame all your problems on those living just south of you, but in all honesty I can't see a nice liberal country like Canada ever wanting you back now, however much you try to shift the blame.
Quote from: platatomi on August 30, 2015, 01:11:49 AMThe north would then have developed their own space program, etc. in northern teritory.
The north would still need a launch site, which would have to be as close to the equator as possible within its territory. Maybe Puerto Rico?
Quote from: Atheon on August 30, 2015, 04:33:12 AM
The north would still need a launch site, which would have to be as close to the equator as possible within its territory. Maybe Puerto Rico?
That's a good point, I wasn't aware of the benefits of launching near the equater. However, most soviet and current Russian launches are from Kazakhstan, so it could be done from higher latitudes.
Quote from: platatomi on August 30, 2015, 12:22:35 AM
Without the south in the picture, I bet we would be a first-rate, functional democracy at this point. Single-payer healthcare, strict gun control, stellar infrastructure including high-speed rail, strong union membership and labor laws, constitutional guarantees of rights for LGBT individuals, women, minorities, and the right to vote, publicly-funded campaigns, no military industrial complex, presidential election by popular vote, possibly proportional senate repesentation, decriminalized/legal drugs. I could go on and on. Just my little fantasy.
Damn, you may be on to something, there. Addition by subtraction, eh? Works for me.
Quote from: Shiranu on August 30, 2015, 12:48:56 AM
I could go on, but the South is a large part of why the United States can at all even try to stay relevant. And sorry, but New England has it's fair-share of bullshit too; or did I miss the memo where asswipes like Chris Christie and Rudy Gulliani were actually elected by Southerners?
I don't think it gets much more racist than Boston.
But it is a novel concept I've never considered. If the North had just let the South go, it probably could have played out a lot of different ways. But going the way it did caused things like this:
(http://i62.tinypic.com/rubjp3.jpg)
But, But, statistics don't prove anything, do they? :biggrin2:
I honestly wish there was a way to divide america from north and south. The south can be called something else like Bush'hala, or Nixonville.
It's pure fantasy to think that the southern states are where all the crazies are at. Several northern states come to mind when I think of crazy. Wisconsin with Scott Walker for one, Michigan with the right wing takeover, Maine with their nutcase governor, Ohio with Kaisich and on and on. Indiana has never been a bastion of left wing progressivism nor has West Virginia and Pennsylvania. Kansas is bankrupt and just reelected their batshit crazy governor. The flag waving nonsense is about as lame as it gets, but it's beat into kids minds from an early age. Personally I could care less who burns a flag, but as pointed out assault is a felony.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on August 31, 2015, 12:38:10 AM
It's pure fantasy to think that the southern states are where all the crazies are at. Several northern states come to mind when I think of crazy. Wisconsin with Scott Walker for one, Michigan with the right wing takeover, Maine with their nutcase governor, Ohio with Kaisich and on and on. Indiana has never been a bastion of left wing progressivism nor has West Virginia and Pennsylvania. Kansas is bankrupt and just reelected their batshit crazy governor. The flag waving nonsense is about as lame as it gets, but it's beat into kids minds from an early age. Personally I could care less who burns a flag, but as pointed out assault is a felony.
You're right, the idiots are all over the map now. So, how about we just invite any state not represented like it wants to live by the US Constitution to secceed and go fuck itself? Being Tea Party dominated, it would make for great entertainment to see them the most irrational anti-government and anti-social assholes try and organize a united front against the rest of us.
I'd have to wonder whether people cheering on the assault would be as happy with an outcome that saw the person committing the assault get killed by the protestor in self-defense, if it came to that. Who's to say that a person being assaulted by a random stranger doesn't feel that their life is being threatened? I can conceive of a scenario that justifiably ends that way and I bet people would be even more angry at the protester for killing a man who was just trying to be a "patriot"
Quote from: Shiranu on August 30, 2015, 12:48:56 AM
You would also lose huge chunks of your infrastructure, your largest provider of oil, your largest military installations, your largest science installations (bye bye, NASA!)... largest sea ports, your border for easy and cheap labour, a large amount of farm land (and lets be honest; the Midwest is as backwards as the South, so you gotta cut out the rest of the bread basket as well if you want to get rid of the crazy)... several of the best tourist locations in the U.S. (so less revenue there), your "American" cars will now have to be imported so drive the price of them up... as well as again the resources to create them so there goes the prices even higher...
I could go on, but the South is a large part of why the United States can at all even try to stay relevant. And sorry, but New England has it's fair-share of bullshit too; or did I miss the memo where asswipes like Chris Christie and Rudy Gulliani were actually elected by Southerners?
A good point, though some of that is pretty irrelevant. We would still have the military installations. Nothing would change there. Unless Castro never asked us to get Guantanamo Bay off his lawn, but I'm pretty sure he did and we said 'no'. As for oil, if we lost our oil production there would be no politicians from oil producing states blocking legislation and research dollars for greener energy. It would suck at first, but the end-game would vastly outweigh a little early-on sucking. And science installations can be easily moved. We can put up a new building or two for NASA. It's really not a big deal. The borders, sea access and farmland would be an issue. You got me there. But I bet we could easily get cheap, lead-tainted food and sea access from China. And if not we just tell the Japanese it can't be done and they'll plop a new sea access on the president's desk in a week. As for the midwest being the same, maybe to an extent, but not entirely, and mostly not as bad. And we might be able to afford those more expensive cars if the minimum wage were to go up to more than about 30K a year for a family with TWO full-time workers, which could more easily be done with the most staunchly conservative states gone.
So, yeah, a lot of this is pure speculation, he said/she said. The reality probably lies in the middle. I was not actually saying we should literally get rid of the south though. It was more a...utopian daydream. And you are right, Chris Christie is a piece of shit, elected in a state where people call themselves stupid things like "Snookie" and "The Situation". Not exactly the brightest bulbs on the old tree, even if you only count the ones that don't actually light up. But boy would we get rid of a whole lot of negative energy and raise the collective IQ of the nation if we could get rid of the south. We'd get rid of Ted Cruz. I'd pay more for gas to do that. Hell, I'd be willing to go back to horses to get that done, though if we also lost TP in the process I'm a lot less sure.