So I just downloaded this app maybe an hour ago. I was wondering how many objectivists, nihilists, subjectivists, existentialist, etc. there were. (http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/26/f82a9a7b0c23164b028512256530d90b.jpg)
Who is John Galt?
Quote from: singulorum on June 26, 2015, 11:23:19 PM
So I just downloaded this app maybe an hour ago. I was wondering how many objectivists, nihilists, subjectivists, existentialist, etc. there were. (http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/26/f82a9a7b0c23164b028512256530d90b.jpg)
Who is John Galt?
New meat--errr, philosopher. :) Welcome. And an Ayn Rand fan, too!
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 27, 2015, 12:02:57 AM
New meat--errr, philosopher. :) Welcome. And an Ayn Rand fan, too!
Haha yes. I'm a new objectivist, so bare with me. I hope to learn more though.
Who is John Galt?
I'm just some random person without one of those philosophy tags.
Welcome.
another philosopher? jes great, another person who can't change a tire or make a cookie…..
:P~~ welcome to the forum.
We have an app?
John Galt is a fictional character ... embodied in a book. Jesus is just like him. I am a fictional character too ... but embodied in the Matrix. I can contain within myself many fictional characters ... but they can't contain even one like me. Ayn Rand was a real person, who had all those fictional characters within her, and had to let them all out ;-) Reading something new, that challenges you ... that is something that gets one thinking new thoughts. In reading, you are exposing yourself to the angels and devils within other people's skulls.
Aitm ... I can't change a tire or make a cookie ... but I can walk and chew gum at the same time ;-)
Something I am borrowing ...
Intellectual Arrogance - Art is understanding that reality does not dictate the limits of your imagination. Wisdom is the understanding that reality is not dictated by the limits of your imagination.
Quote from: the_antithesis on June 27, 2015, 09:59:27 AM
We have an app?
tapatalk has an app, where I access this.
Who is John Galt?
Quote from: Baruch on June 27, 2015, 10:17:35 AM
John Galt is a fictional character ... embodied in a book. Jesus is just like him. I am a fictional character too ... but embodied in the Matrix. I can contain within myself many fictional characters ... but they can't contain even one like me. Ayn Rand was a real person, who had all those fictional characters within her, and had to let them all out ;-) Reading something new, that challenges you ... that is something that gets one thinking new thoughts. In reading, you are exposing yourself to the angels and devils within other people's skulls.
Aitm ... I can't change a tire or make a cookie ... but I can walk and chew gum at the same time ;-)
Something I am borrowing ...
Intellectual Arrogance - Art is understanding that reality does not dictate the limits of your imagination. Wisdom is the understanding that reality is not dictated by the limits of your imagination.
i know who John Galt is. That's my signature lol. Also, Jesus was a real person, whether he is the son of God or not is pretty obvious, but Jesus was real.
~-Who is John Galt?-~
All fictional people are real, and all real people are fictional. This is a false dichotomy. Once J K Rowling thought him up ... Voldemort and Harry Potter are real ... the question is not real/unreal but ... what kind of real.
Quote from: Baruch on June 27, 2015, 10:41:28 AM
All fictional people are real, and all real people are fictional. This is a false dichotomy. Once J K Rowling thought him up ... Voldemort and Harry Potter are real ... the question is not real/unreal but ... what kind of real.
Except that Jesus was a real, living person.
~-Who is John Galt?-~
Quote from: singulorum on June 27, 2015, 10:33:37 AM
i know who John Galt is. That's my signature lol. Also, Jesus was a real person, whether he is the son of God or not is pretty obvious, but Jesus was real.
~-Who is John Galt?-~
Okay, I gotta bite! No, singulorum, Jesus was not a man--most emphatically not! He is a myth. I have not a shred of doubt in my mind about it.
Quote from: Baruch on June 27, 2015, 10:17:35 AM
John Galt is a fictional character ... embodied in a book. Jesus is just like him. I am a fictional character too ... but embodied in the Matrix. I can contain within myself many fictional characters ... but they can't contain even one like me. Ayn Rand was a real person, who had all those fictional characters within her, and had to let them all out ;-) Reading something new, that challenges you ... that is something that gets one thinking new thoughts. In reading, you are exposing yourself to the angels and devils within other people's skulls.
I love to dance with the angels and devils, then. Love to read. And love sci-fi because it can go anywhere--from pure adventure to deeply philosophical. Loved Atlas Shrugged in college. Fountainhead not so much. Anthem was almost as good as Atlas Shrugged. Also loved Stranger in a Strange Land. Turns out I love Stranger in a Strange Land much more. :) But then I also loved the John Carter of Mars series, as well; especially the Chessmen of Mars. I even made the amended chess game and talked a guy into playing it with me. :)
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 27, 2015, 11:12:09 AM
Okay, I gotta bite! No, singulorum, Jesus was not a man--most emphatically not! He is a myth. I have not a shred of doubt in my mind about it.
It's historically proven that he was man, just a regular old crazy fellow who thought he was special.
~-Who is John Galt?-~
What's a jesus?
Quote from: singulorum on June 27, 2015, 11:17:09 AM
It's historically proven that he was man, just a regular old crazy fellow who thought he was special.
~-Who is John Galt?-~
Really??!! What history are you reading? I suggest that it has been proven historically that he was a myth and not a man.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 27, 2015, 11:34:23 AM
Really??!! What history are you reading? I suggest that it has been proven historically that he was a myth and not a man.
I am by no means a Christian. Here is a link I found. https://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=10&article=876
~-Who is John Galt?-~
Quote from: singulorum on June 27, 2015, 11:38:28 AM
I am by no means a Christian. Here is a link I found. https://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=10&article=876
I'll read it when I care.
I'll never read it.
Quote from: singulorum on June 27, 2015, 11:38:28 AM
I am by no means a Christian. Here is a link I found. https://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=10&article=876
~-Who is John Galt?-~
It has been shown that what Josephus said about Jesus was an addition added at a much later date by Christians who very much wanted Jesus to be a man. Why would it be that a man of Jesus' reputation was not mentioned by any other historian of the period? Might I suggest you google Richard Carrier--he has several works about the historicity of Jesus. And google testimonium flavianum to get the lowdown about that Josephus reference to Jesus. The author of the site you sent me to is akin to Josh McDowell, who is interested in furthering his Christian points than in studying real history. Also refer to Paul, the first writer of the NT--read his works first (not Mark, Matthew, Luke and John) and you will see that Jesus is of the spirit and not of the flesh.
Welcome aboard singulorum! There is not one shred of evidence that Jesus lived at the time He existed, only what is written 40-60 years after He died. How is that proof He existed?
Pretty sure the Roman Empire destroyed any proof of his existence around the time of his death. Anyone who valued there life wouldn't have said the word Jesus for a good generation I'm sure.
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Jesus was my next door neighbor and still has my fucking lawn mower. . It quit working, but he never returned it.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 27, 2015, 07:43:08 PM
Pretty sure the Roman Empire destroyed any proof of his existence around the time of his death. Anyone who valued there life wouldn't have said the word Jesus for a good generation I'm sure.
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Why in the world would the Roman Empire destroy proof of or even care about Jesus????? And then threatened to kill any who snitched??? What????????????????????? Do you have any shred of proof of such drivel? Any at all???? I'll answer for you, pops, you don't--but you want to believe in the Jesus myth so much that you will swallow any story at all and call it proof. I suspect you are a bible reader. So, I have a challenge for you--since Paul is the first writer of the NT, read his books first and then tell me what biographical information you have of him--and no fair referring the Synioptics, either. I know--you are too busy.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 27, 2015, 07:43:08 PM
Pretty sure the Roman Empire destroyed any proof of his existence around the time of his death. Anyone who valued there life wouldn't have said the word Jesus for a good generation I'm sure.
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well of course you are right. What with all the internet chatter and text messages and such ole jesus was a right hip hop mogul with billions following his twitter…..oh wait….
There people go assuming shit. I never read the New Testament really. Did read the Old Testament once while I was incarcerated for bs reasons. I do try to fit in time to study what I can easily assume are somewhat reputable text of old. It is obvious to me that the NT is rife with manipulation just as our society is today.
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To be honest what you call the Jesus myth has little to do with my personal beliefs I just thought I'd try to help out a little.
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Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 27, 2015, 09:24:20 PM
To be honest what you call the Jesus myth has little to do with my personal beliefs I just thought I'd try to help out a little.
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Sorry, pops, if I misread you. I gather you are not christian. And that is a good thing. :) But you seemed so sure that Jesus was an actual man. He was not.
Welcome
Why should I believe the Jesus myth anymore than the many Pagan myths that are basically the same and changed a little bit on each telling? :wall:
Jesus was prophesied. He was a perfect example of what man has the potential to be. If you read all ancient texts and read interpret them with patience and metaphorically for the most part they all have the same lessons and guidelines in order to live an enlightened life on earth and the afterlife. They all state that Jesus Christ was a messenger of god as were other prophets. Christianity was manipulated by man from the start but there are some Christians that have the right idea. All re religions focus on some fake difference in there god but in reality they all read very similar if you can comb through the intentionally misleading parts put there by man. As far as I can tell. Modern pagans feel as if there religion started in the 60s. There are generally many gods, magic, satanists in current pagan practices.
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Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 27, 2015, 11:53:38 PM
Jesus was prophesied. He was a perfect example of what man has the potential to be. If you read all ancient texts and read interpret them with patience and metaphorically for the most part they all have the same lessons and guidelines in order to live an enlightened life on earth and the afterlife. They all state that Jesus Christ was a messenger of god as were other prophets. Christianity was manipulated by man from the start but there are some Christians that have the right idea. All re religions focus on some fake difference in there god but in reality they all read very similar if you can comb through the intentionally misleading parts put there by man. As far as I can tell. Modern pagans feel as if there religion started in the 60s. There are generally many gods, magic, satanists in current pagan practices.
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Jesus was not prophesied. He was backdated. And since Jesus was a myth and not a man, he could not have been prophesied. Daniel--one of the main sources of that prophesy is clearly been tampered with many times. We don't even know who wrote it or even exactly when. You seem to think that there is a kernel of truth in all those religions. There is none--it is all man made--all of it and all of them. God isn't real, so how can one have a real religion based on an unreal god???? And most of the satanists and the most magic performers I'm aware of are Christian, not pagan. And what is that 'right idea' that some Christians have????
The right idea is one of unity and morality in the face of adversity. The Lord is there. I have witnessed his grace and mercy personally. I was atheist for over 20 years and have been through more trials than most. Self inflicted of course. Try reading a little of the Old Testament and Quran, and the book of Enoch. Yes they are all flawed in part by mans sin and for his own gain. But the lessons are firm and true. What caused you to be atheist? Do you remember?
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QuoteWhat caused you to be atheist? Do you remember?
I didn't believe in god, that was the main thing.
The baby BBQ was just icing on the cake.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 28, 2015, 12:29:22 AMThe right idea is one of unity and morality in the face of adversity. The Lord is there. I have witnessed his grace and mercy personally. I was atheist for over 20 years and have been through more trials than most. Self inflicted of course. Try reading a little of the Old Testament and Quran, and the book of Enoch. Yes they are all flawed in part by mans sin and for his own gain. But the lessons are firm and true.
(https://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lopaoct3pn1qkx0x3o1_400.gif)
Singulorum - the history of history ... is historiography. The history of Christianity officially begins with Eusebius who is a contemporary of Emperor Constantine circa 325 CE. This is basically 300 years after Paul. History as written, is always propaganda by the winning side. It has to be cross-examined ;-) The writings of contemporary witnesses are the most reliable, but always biased. One also has to distinguish between official records and popular fiction. Most records, both Jewish and Gentile, for Palestine ... were destroyed in 70 CE, during the first Jewish-Roman war. It doesn't take a conspiracy on the part of Jews or Romans to suppress the "Jesus" literature or groups that embodied that message ... it was illegal to operate an unauthorized men's club, and like most crimes of that era, the punishment was death, even for women.
Given that, if we imagine that America was destroyed, and 300 years later someone dug up "Tom Sawyer" ... would it be treated as historical evidence that Tom Sayer existed? No ... but it would be proof that Mark Twain existed ... except that Mark Twain didn't exist, Samuel Clemens did. That is what we are faced with in the textual evidence. I have studied this early evidence myself ... specifically the "red letter" words of Jesus. The gospels are novellas ... short religious fictions to support one or more early Christian communities ... that were more or less Pauline ... because all the other messianic Jews from 70 - 135 CE, were destroyed by the Romans in three massive Roman-Jewish wars (see Josephus for the first one). The Gentiles wrote similar religious and secular literature, it was pulp fiction. As Eusebius probably honestly relates ... all Jews were prohibited from the ruins of Jerusalem and a radius many miles around ... but one group, descended from the "James the Just" group, opted to apostasy from Judaism, so that they could retain access after 135 CE. Jews continued in the neighborhood for several more centuries, particularly in Galilee ... where rabbinic Judaism was first birthed. Historical Romans didn't write much about messianic Jews ... other than that they killed them for good reason. Historical Jews, the surviving ones, were anti-messianic Jews ... for understandable reasons. They did write about these troublemakers, but never about Jesus, but about the other failed pretenders to the miracle of Hannukah oil.
Pretty much anything that had been Jewish-Gentile Christianity, was leveled and rewritten circa 135 - 200 CE. There is evidence of a non-textual kind, prior to Constantine ... but this is evidence of Jewish-Christian communities of uncertain affiliation in Jerusalem ... prior to Constantine, but how prior, we don't know. The other non-textual evidence is there too, but it is pretty thin before Christianity was chosen, and re-imagined politically, as a State religion. Initially this new religion was Greek Orthodox, centered on Thessalonica and Constantinople, but the people in the West didn't speak Greek much, so a Latin derivative church had to be invented, centered on Rome and Carthage.
Our first complete NT books come from 200 CE. Josephus was considered a traitor by the rabbinic Jews, so his books weren't copied by copyists of Jewish persuasion ... but were copied by Gentile historians and eventually under Emperor Constantine, by Gentile Christians. Gentile Christianity as we know it got its start under Paul, whose writings were edited (as any ancient writing was) and a few other pre-Constantine writings such as The Didache ... which describes an early congregational practice circa Paul. Diaspora synagogues were mixed communities of kosher Jews and god-fearers. Many god-fearers were Gentiles who had been freed by their Jewish masters. You can't go without a boss ... when you were manumitted from slavery ... your ownership was passed from your master to a new paterfamilias. In some cases this was manumission as a Roman citizen (who was a slave of the Emperor). Paul's ancestry in Tarsus was likely that kind ... as he admits, his citizenship wasn't purchased ... which means that one could do that ... in the early Roman Empire, most people were not citizens, they were subjects. The way Paul talks of slavery on several levels ... I don't think that his ancestor had been a free Jew, who purchased (bribed really) a Roman citizenship off of the local governor. It was more likely a manumission. This is why Paul targeted manumitted slaves primarily. This is why Paul speaks with a "slave mentality" and this is very useful to Roman Christianity later on. But for the first 100 years, Christianoi (Greek for messianic-maniacs) ... just as Quakers/Shakers are named by their enemies much later ... were Jews of various kinds. There are multiple gospels because there are multiple kinds of "Jesus communities" ... and Paul was one of those "apostles" who went around forming them, initially out of Jewish and god-fearers in existing synagogues ... where anyone who accepted Paul's message, was expelled from the synagogue by both kosher Jews and other messianic Jews. It was the Roman authorities you had to be afraid of, because if you weren't associated with a legal synagogue, and still congregated, you were a felon. But on this expulsion, you aren't beaten ... as Paul wasn't ... but upon re-admittence ... as Paul was. Paul literally underwent multiple excommunications, to get more followers, he got readmitted (probably under false pretenses .. this is why there was a Jewish posse following him everywhere to warn the next synagogue down the road) multiple times ... and on re-admittance was flogged and trod upon at the entrance to the synagogue. Quite the maniac. Synagogues were still practicing this 1500 years later, in the time of Baruch Spinoza (who didn't seek re-admittence and so wasn't flogged or trod upon).
Anyway, after 135 CE, the various Christian communities (hence the diatribes concerning heresy by the other Christian groups different from the writer in question) were pretty much Gentile, because they had to be ... and Jewish Christianity pretty much died out, under Constantinian Christianity (State Christianity aka Greek Orthodox Church) by 400 CE. Constantine's Christianity wasn't anti-Semitic by sentiment but by legal proscription. Though Jewish Christianity has enjoyed a revival in the last 50 years (as did messianic secular Judaism in Palestine/Israel over the last 100 years). Early rabbinic Judaism continued also ... but was pretty much suppressed in the Roman Empire by 400 CE also ... that is why there is the break in the Talmud ... from the Jerusalem Talmud to the Babylonian Talmud. Under Emperor Julian the Apostate, the Temple was going to be rebuilt (as some messianic Jews are planning even now) .. but the early death of this emperor prevented this. The back-reaction by the Gentile Christians was considerable (destruction of synagogues).
It is a unique Jewish practice, since the destruction of 70 CE ... to preserve perfect copies of Torah ... which is the primary part of the OT or Tanakh. This is expensive even today ... it is done by hand, and if the scribe makes a single error, the whole scroll gets thrown out. This is why a kosher Torah scroll costs $40,000 to make. The OT as a book, was a much later invention circa 950 CE ... by a dissident Jewish group called the Karaiites. The Aleppo Codex is (except for OT scrolls from the Dead Sea) the oldest partial OT book. The slightly later Leningrad Codex is the oldest complete Tanakh in existence today ... but hardly the oldest Bible. The Bible was originally ordered composed by Emperor Constantine. This was done for 25 copies on vellum ... and each one took an emperor's ransom to make. The Christian scribes had to kill 3000 sheep to make one copy ... you couldn't just jog on down to Kinko's ;-) One of these Bibles, or possibly a slightly later issue, has been saved as the Codex Siniaticus ... it is also incomplete, as the Aleppo Codex is. The story as to how the NT came about is fascinating but a distraction ... suffice it to say, prior to Constantine, we know that it existed as separate codexes (books) not scrolls. These codexes were on papyrus ... and were actually recycled papyrus ... and the place that the recycled papyrus was produced, and bound into blank journals for business use (as journals are used for bookkeeping today) was in a Lebanese coastal town called ... da.da.da ... Byblos. BTW - the Codex Siniaticus has plenty of scribal error in it, with emendations to the side of the error. Gentiles were not going to throw away even a single sheet of vellum for a mere error. Also Jews don't casually destroy sacred writings ... they are carefully stored or buried. When the Codex Siniaticus was found, it was literally being used as tinder to light the kitchen stove at the Mt Sinai Monastery. And rabbinic Jews would agree ... to consign it to the flames.
Mike CL ... it always comes down to personal and group psychology of our own and contemporaries. So we might ask, not if Jesus existed, or if Jesus was supernatural ... but why would various communities of Jews and Gentiles prior to Constantine, believe such a story or stories? And then we might ask ourselves, why do you care to try to reconstruct the psychology of people who lived 2000 years ago, that we can't cross-examine ;-) I agree that there are no miracles, except the ordinary kind, that secular folks just call natural. At one point, Jesus refuses to do any showy miracles ... just faith healings ... which are real placebo events. Other preternatural events ... are just from the imagination of the Gospel writers ... and have only symbolic value as these are hagiographies, not histories ... just like all the "saint's lives" that came later.
What Paul emphasizes is Christ crucified and risen ... not the ministry or words of Jesus. This is very strange for a near contemporary ... unless you conclude with Paul's enemies, that he as a prevaricating nut case. Now I am not against maniacs, particularly charismatic ones ... but I am not following them anywhere ;-) I have a personal friend who is one ... and he even participated in a preternatural event in Jerusalem (something strange about that location) which I didn't witness myself. Japanese tourists experience psychotic geographical effects, in Paris France. But they haven't started a religion over that yet ;-) I have experienced preternatural events myself of a minor kind, and know others, even my own parents, who have experienced the more spectacular kind. But of course, as one time events, they can never be scientifically investigated. But what remains, besides official theology ... is what Paul actually meant by Christ crucified and risen ... given his vision on the road to Damascus ... is clearly at variance with the Gospels. He existed, and he was communicating something to his living audience ... but it may be beyond our grasp forever, just like so much other history.
Popsthebuilder - not just the words of ancient people, but their acts. Their acts were horrendous ... ancient messianic Jews were mostly not pacifists ... they were very much like ISIS is today. The three wars of Jews against Romans (not counting an earlier one that led to Judea et al becoming a protectorate 100 years before Paul) were horrible events ... and not just Romans committed atrocity after atrocity. The only Jews of any kind to survive, were the pacifists, not the militants. Both the Hellenized Jews and the Semitic Jews were wiped out in the Near East. Only small synagogues existed outside that area, from Asia all the way thru Europe and Africa. It has taken 2000 years for Judaism to recover. Jewish folk who played the prophet or miracle worker ... were troublemakers, enemies of both the Jews and the Romans ... partly because in early times, their claims were believed to be legitimate miracles. This happened in modern times with Palestine/Israel ... with secular Jewish prophets. And there have been miracles ... such as the recreation of Hebrew as a spoken language (though not the language of the Bible).
Please do not attempt to say that the underlying messages of some ancient text do not have truth. Like I said to some it must be as if you are stumbling through the dark woods of a fairytale when you attempt to get the real meaning of those texts. I am not a scholar, historian, or Christian. I was a hard core atheist for a long time. I know that there is a Lord and an unspeakable based on my experiences in life and interactions with both.
Faith is the hardest part, but also when the dots will line up.
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Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 28, 2015, 12:29:22 AM
The right idea is one of unity and morality in the face of adversity. The Lord is there. I have witnessed his grace and mercy personally. I was atheist for over 20 years and have been through more trials than most. Self inflicted of course. Try reading a little of the Old Testament and Quran, and the book of Enoch. Yes they are all flawed in part by mans sin and for his own gain. But the lessons are firm and true. What caused you to be atheist? Do you remember?
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Sure, pops, I do remember what lead me to my realization that there is no god(s). It was because I read the bible from cover to cover, studied the history of the canonization of the bible, and applied some reasoning and thinking on my own. (I'd suggest that maybe you apply a little 'reasoning' while you contemplate god) Dare I ask? What is man's sin? What lessons are you referring to? BTW, read the little statement attached to my avatar. Can you answer that question?
popsthebuilder ... I am not trying to dissuade you from faith or religious experience. I hang my hat on religious experience myself, though not on faith. This is why I don't rely on ancient texts ... or any text or artifact or natural event ... but those things mediate how I interpret those religious experiences. If you have a close relationship with what transcends modern-delimited perception (the modern Matrix) then good for you. I also quite enjoy trying to get into the mental and emotional experiences of both ancient and modern writers.
Mike Cl ... much of the argumentation one gets from religious folks ... is based on word games rather than direct experience. I think that popsthebuilder is saying that ... he has direct religious experience, that is relatively unmediated by any rhetorical faith position. That is my position too, though my particular religious experiences may or may not match his ... and the way that I perceive them (interpret them) may also be different. A mystic of Muslim leaning will interpret the same religious experience differently than say a Hindu mystic.
Many humans have human experiences ... naturally so. Whether these are to be interpreted according to Pythagoras/Plato or some other ancient or modern authors is a matter of personality of the person having the experiences. Whether we are talking ordinary day time experiences, or extraordinary consciousness states (including dreams or paranormal phenomena). The very question as to the objectivity of any human experience ... is subject to the same ambiguity ... even what seems rational or factual.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 28, 2015, 12:29:22 AM
and have been through more trials than most. Self inflicted of course.
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:rotflmao:
oh wonderful, another ex-drunk/dope head gone through the vagina of jesus and re-born! Hal a fuckin luleah! Yeah, we are all aware you're a fuck up unable to exist in the real world without something or someone holding your hand cause you don't have the f-in ability to control yourself.. yea, I am impressed at your reasoning that god exists when you can't push your own ass away from the bar.
We are all evil. There is evedence of this in your tone. I am not sorry that the Lord has blessed me.
Assuming that the somewhat successful business owner that has a loving imidiate family was a fuck up. In your assuming eyes you judge based on societies negative influence effectively giving false judgement. I enjoy solitude to some extent and always have. It allows for somewhat unbiased conclusions. By the way, I was indeed mended by the Lord. He opened my eyes and heart and changed my entire way of being. It was a trying journey indeed but I am no doubt better for it. Most societal norms can be viewed as simply laziness where they conflict with nature and the metaphorical teachings of the old texts. My life's experiences have thought me and the Lord indeed guides me. As I understand it is not only my perpose but the propose.
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Pops, I've been a self inflicted fuckup for many many years. I was a drunk and heroin addict and came through more shit than you can poke a dull stick at. Did GAWD save me from my own fuckups? No. I decided that I just didn't want to go to prison and rot there. I've known plenty of people who have lived really tough lives, much tougher than my own and many come through relatively unscathed and DON'T attribute their success nor failure to the big spooky in the sky.
Give yourself some fucking credit for not having succumbed to the shit you put yourself through and stop with the telling us how magic from the sky is the reason you're not dead..
I have known all kinds. Those who AA has helped. Those whose time in prison helped. Those who quit cold turkey. Whatever works, is good by me.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 28, 2015, 01:32:14 PM
We are all evil.
Well you convinced me you are. Please let us know approximately where you live so we can keep our kids and pets away. The only evil people I have ever met told me they were evil. So it is indeed you. Congratulations! You are one of a few.
Nice
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I do not attribute the things that I have overcome to an outside source per say. Like I said we are all inherently good and bad. All is one. All religion pertains to one. Or it could if people would stop bickering. Even atheist can agree that all is energy which cannot be destroyed technically. I know what I feel and it is true. Yes, I was indeed blessed as I was not the worst off.
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Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 28, 2015, 04:41:08 PM
I do not attribute the things that I have overcome to an outside source per say. Like I said we are all inherently good and bad. All is one. All religion pertains to one. Or it could if people would stop bickering. Even atheist can agree that all is energy which cannot be destroyed technically. I know what I feel and it is true. Yes, I was indeed blessed as I was not the worst off.
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ah..reading that tells me you fell off the wagon again. Oh yeah..energy and magic crystals and zoom-a-rilla…whooo-hooo! You go son!
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 27, 2015, 09:12:02 PM
I do try to fit in time to study what I can easily assume are somewhat reputable text of old.
I thought you'd said you were reading the old testament?
I have, once.
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Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 28, 2015, 01:32:14 PM
We are all evil. There is evedence of this in your tone. I am not sorry that the Lord has blessed me.
Assuming that the somewhat successful business owner that has a loving imidiate family was a fuck up. In your assuming eyes you judge based on societies negative influence effectively giving false judgement. I enjoy solitude to some extent and always have. It allows for somewhat unbiased conclusions. By the way, I was indeed mended by the Lord. He opened my eyes and heart and changed my entire way of being. It was a trying journey indeed but I am no doubt better for it. Most societal norms can be viewed as simply laziness where they conflict with nature and the metaphorical teachings of the old texts. My life's experiences have thought me and the Lord indeed guides me. As I understand it is not only my perpose but the propose.
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Well, pops, you are free to believe as you will. Your experience is your experience. And mine is mine. I, too, am a loner--and I like it that way. And it does allow somewhat unbiased conclusions. And I find no evidence anywhere, anywhen. Your Lord is simply your wishful thinking. And if it makes you feel better, go for it. That we are all evil, is how you view it--you generally get what you look for, so I guess you like to find evil. You also speak in fuzzy terms and come to fuzzy conclusions. What is 'nature and metaphorical' teachings? What old texts do you refer? And you know 'the purpose'--and I suppose you know the Truth. Okay. Would you mind sharing what those things are?
We are all good, evil, or a mix. You cannot deny that we are products of the Universe. I speak of nature as instinct. All plants and animals and single celled organisms have instinct. The natural undeniable path of righteousness that all things are guided by. Metaphorical teachings is in reference to old religious and philosophical texts that have meaning in the ways of morality, ethics, society and life lessons in general. The problem with referencing said texts is that everyone wants to play stupid and act as if all teachings are literal. so they can do what they selfishly want as opposed to taking in the lessons that are trying to be conveyed.
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Purpose is to overcome inherent adversity which resides in us all in order to make our way down the right path in Faith that we will indeed overcome that adversity in Unity and propel very existence forward as opposed to backwards or stalemate. This is a rough interpretation as I am not a good communicator.
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Purpose and truth are the same
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Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 28, 2015, 05:45:50 PM
We are all good, evil, or a mix. You cannot deny that we are products of the Universe. I speak of nature as instinct. All plants and animals and single celled organisms have instinct. The natural undeniable path of righteousness that all things are guided by. Metaphorical teachings is in reference to old religious and philosophical texts that have meaning in the ways of morality, ethics, society and life lessons in general. The problem with referencing said texts is that everyone wants to play stupid and act as if all teachings are literal. so they can do what they selfishly want as opposed to taking in the lessons that are trying to be conveyed.
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I agree with you that those who take the bible literally are fairly stupid. I also agree with you that we are all a mixture of good, evil and everything in between. And I do not deny that we are products of the universe. See--we do agree on a lot of stuff here. :) You say: "The natural undeniable path of righteousness that all things are guided by. " Here I have to say that nothing is guided by any path of righteousness. There is no such thing and is only a construct of your own mind. This is something in which you have to 'believe' in; any use of reasoning or critical thinking it simply evaporates. Since you think all the texts that are to be used to find God is not literal, but is 'metaphorical' teachings. Why is your god so lacking in resources that he can only communicate in that manner and only in ancient texts? Isn't that more than a little strange? It is for me. So, what in the OT lead you to think that it delivered even a metaphorical message for you? For me it is stories featuring a monster who has no morals and lives in the sky. It will do as it will, and either follow what it says, or die a horrible death. No allegory here--only blood and guts.
God communicates in many ways. We have become deaf due to societal normality which is barely linked to true right at all. Tone deaf if you will. We base our personal views on what is deemed ok by others in that same group. If you look at the bigger picture you will see that we are not in harmony with any other existence at all. We are the kings of this world and run it as such in regards to all life. With no regard to existence as a whole. We are oblivious to reality and live in our own little world that revolves around us. But contrary to this confusion we know that it is us that orbits the bigger picture, not the other way around. The Old Testament for the most part rang really true for me. If you isolate it from the more so manipulated New Testament and take it as metaphor for the most part then I'm sure you could find a lot of stuff you can relate to. Yah isn't speaking of direct vengeance but more of personal hell on earth do to the wrong desicions that we are capable of. Eternal damnation can be seen as your self upon death joining evil at its root for all eternity. I simplify this more by referring to it as negative energy. That we add or shift from the good or chaitic energy.
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Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 28, 2015, 06:24:10 PM
God communicates in many ways.
How do you tell the difference between delusion and god actually speaking?
He doesn't speak aloud per say. Outside thoughts enter the conscious with instant understanding and clarity to issues I may or may not be pondering. I can tell these apart due to there nature. Thoughts of right are always direct, simple and leave me with a sense of good and knowing. Were as bad thoughts creep in and manipulate, and currupt leaving you with negative or self centered conclusions.
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So you have no way of knowing.
Good to know you can legally drive a car.
Because a thought makes you feel good or bad has no bearing on the truth. My niece is dead. That thought does not make me feel good, but that does not mean it is not true. Your criteria for differentiating between god and delusion is pathetically, woefully inadequate.
the guys' a tard. Let me know when you're done with it.
Quote from: aitm on June 28, 2015, 07:21:00 PM
the guys' a tard. Let me know when you're done with it.
I doubt he'll be back. We gave him a does of reality and his kind can't deal with it.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 28, 2015, 06:24:10 PM
pops--God communicates in many ways.
Mike--I have yet to have any communication from god. I would think a god who cared if we knew he was god would make it abundantly clear what he was and what he wanted. So far, nothing.
pops--We have become deaf due to societal normality which is barely linked to true right at all. Tone deaf if you will.
Mike--So, at one time 'we' were not tone deaf to god. When was that? And I think you are wrong about society. Our 'moral' system is developed by each society through the evolutionary process. It is not a set of rules laid down by some god.
pops--We base our personal views on what is deemed ok by others in that same group. If you look at the bigger picture you will see that we are not in harmony with any other existence at all. We are the kings of this world and run it as such in regards to all life. With no regard to existence as a whole. We are oblivious to reality and live in our own little world that revolves around us. But contrary to this confusion we know that it is us that orbits the bigger picture, not the other way around.
MIke--not quite sure what it is you are trying to say. What is this 'bigger' picture? On one hand you say we are oblivious to reality, yet we know that we actually orbit the bigger picture, not the other way around....?? It has to be one way or the other. And what does that mean???
pops--The Old Testament for the most part rang really true for me. If you isolate it from the more so manipulated New Testament and take it as metaphor for the most part then I'm sure you could find a lot of stuff you can relate to.
Mike--How is the NT more manipulated than the OT???? Both are very heavily manipulated--neither make much sense, either literally or allegorically. If this is the best god can do as a writer, then he flunks writing 1-A! Please tell me what is not manipulated in the OT? What in the OT is true?? Nothing I can read.
pops--Yah isn't speaking of direct vengeance but more of personal hell on earth do to the wrong desicions that we are capable of. Eternal damnation can be seen as your self upon death joining evil at its root for all eternity. I simplify this more by referring to it as negative energy. That we add or shift from the good or chaitic energy.
Mike--You lost me. Except that when I die, that is all there is. Eternal sleep. No other life, no different life. Both your heaven and hell are simply your wishful thinking.
No communication due to lack of real attempt.
We have never been completely in touch with our obviouse connection to creation.
Not all are oblivious.
Only those that haven't made the connection yet.
The bigger picture can be described as our very real connection to all other creation and the galactically unique gift that we have in the ability to not simply obey the order as all other things do, but to help it.
The Old Testament has been translated, so yes it could be flawed. Maybe that is why Yah is perceived so negatively.
It shows good moral standards in a lot of stuff it says, not all.
When we die our material containment releases us for we are energy , and return from whence we acted out.
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Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 28, 2015, 10:16:33 PM
No communication due to lack of real attempt.
We have never been completely in touch with our obviouse connection to creation.
Not all are oblivious.
Only those that haven't made the connection yet.
The bigger picture can be described as our very real connection to all other creation and the galactically unique gift that we have in the ability to not simply obey the order as all other things do, but to help it.
The Old Testament has been translated, so yes it could be flawed. Maybe that is why Yah is perceived so negatively.
It shows good moral standards in a lot of stuff it says, not all.
When we die our material containment releases us for we are energy , and return from whence we acted out.
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Basically, then you are simply speaking rubbish--or babbling or both. You make no sense at all. You explain nothing, only babble on about some nonsense of Yah and how much good is in the OT. Well, then, demonstrate some of it. I highly suspect that that is not possible for you--or anybody else.
Dude, I completely answered everything you set up in your little pretend conversation just for your understanding and you accuse me of nonsensical rambling because science can't confirm or deny it. I'm sorry but science is only a tool to assist our understanding. It is not understanding by its self. Some one else please assist tho man in making some real point. Please.
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Tomorrow. Very tired
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Yeah, sorry, but you actually didn't offer anything other than, "I think this, {therefor it is true}.".
People say the same thing in favour of Islam, Hinduism, Paganism, Chem Trail theories, UFOs, Bigfoot, "The Third Eye", etc. etc. etc. .
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 28, 2015, 11:54:53 PM
Dude, I completely answered everything you set up in your little pretend conversation just for your understanding and you accuse me of nonsensical rambling because science can't confirm or deny it. I'm sorry but science is only a tool to assist our understanding. It is not understanding by its self. Some one else please assist tho man in making some real point. Please.
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Dude--science can't confirm or deny......what???? The Big Picture? What is that?? I see, science is only a tool. But the OT is THE answer. Okay. The OT is understanding......of what???? At least in my pretend conversation I gave you an idea of what my questions were and where I disagreed with you. And your only reply is that you gave all the answers. Really? I see, so if you say it (even if we don't know what 'it' is) then it is the Truth. Okay. Wow.............I can see you are really plugged into your god! Airy-fairy and tooth fairy time.
No actually I took the time to answer each of your questions twice and seperately.
As long as the earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night will never cease.
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Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 29, 2015, 09:05:51 AM
No actually I took the time to answer each of your questions twice and seperately.
As long as the earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night will never cease.
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Maybe in your befuddled little mind. And that last statement is easily seen as false. Same as your god.
How is it false to believe the earth will only have us as guests for so long?
And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal, and from every man too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.
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Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 29, 2015, 09:12:39 AM
How is it false to believe the earth will only have us as guests for so long?
And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal, and from every man too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.
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Because when the sun becomes a red dwarf, there will be no seedtime or harvest, there will mainly be heat, no summer or winter, day or night and one day the earth will simply be burned piece of rock circling the sun.
You can demand all you want and you can hold your breath and stomp up and down as you like. :))) You are a silly, silly man. :))) Ravings.....................
No shut. That would be the time at which the earth will no longer be our host.
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Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 29, 2015, 10:31:22 AM
No shut. That would be the time at which the earth will no longer be our host.
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There was an old song about you.........Let's see....oh yeah, Rave On Silver Moon, Rave On..................oh, wait, that's Shine On Silver Moon..............that's what you are doing..........shining me on. :))))) My or my................I bet you drool, too.
Super productive.
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Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 28, 2015, 10:16:33 PM
The Old Testament has been translated, so yes it could be flawed. Maybe that is why Yah is perceived so negatively.
Actually, that probably has more to do with YWH being the Canaanite god of war during the time much of the old testament was originally written, which is why he looks like such a bloodthirsty psychopath. Later he was combined with several other gods, including his father Elohim who was the chief god of the pantheon, to make the monotheistic deity that is kinda sorta worshiped today.
Regardless of the name used to describe the one Lord the Old Testament could have been manipulated even in original writing.
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Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 29, 2015, 02:12:54 PM
Regardless of the name used to describe the one Lord the Old Testament could have been manipulated even in original writing.
How do you know that your "one lord of the old testament" isn't the altered, incorrect version?
Oh, wait. You already told us because you can
feel it. Even though we've already demonstrated that feelings are a poor measure for truth.
You are just another example that faith is simply an act of pride.
Faith is the opposite of pride in true form. You say that science and society disregard feeling as a simple brain wave but the brain is the most complex organ we have that has in no way been completely understood.
I say what are the senses?
How can you throw out our most intuitive sense (the mind) simply because science and society (definitely not science and off, or biased due to fragmented Unity as a whole) claim it isn't real by reason of lack of observable understanding.
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You refute the very core of existence due to the inability to fit it into a flawed perception.
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Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 29, 2015, 02:35:03 PM
Faith is the opposite of pride in true form. You say that science and society disregard feeling as a simple brain wave but the brain is the most complex organ we have that has in no way been completely understood.
The brain is completely misunderstood, but you understand it?
You prideful cunt.
This is why I am not a theist. I am a very self-centered person but I cannot reach the heights necessary to have faith.
Faith is not the opposite of pride. Faith is pride. Faith says, "I do not care what the facts are or what evidence may exist, I cannot possibly be wrong."
You will demonstrate this by denying this. Already have, actually.
Now pay attention because this is very important: you are not magical. You do not have secret knowledge that most people have never encountered. Most people have encountered it and discarded it for the stupidity it is. You are the only one dumb enough to accept it.
Intuition is not that hot because it does it give reliable results. This is why intuition always fails when studied, and it has been studied. It's not magical. Your brain is not magical. Far from. So just because a thought enters into your head does not make it true, but that's the stance your entire argument here is based. "I believe it, that settles it," you say. "Fuck off and die," we say because you are not a reliable source for information. We have no reason to even listen to, much less believe, your side of things. So, go away and never come back.
No ass. Faith is saying fuck self preservation in a selfish sense, and is only for the advancement of the greater good.
Pride is thinking you as an individual are better than another individual or group and is never the truth.
I don't claim some high up status over nonbelievers. I just relate to them due to my past beliefs and methodical approach to reality. I sin daily if not more. I am a hypocrite in that I actually understand and do not always conform. I am in no way better than anyone else. I have always thought this and always will. Quite the opposite of pride. I completely agree with most of sciences observations, I just see them differently.
I never claimed any sort of magic, or special knowledge. We all have it. Some don't pay attention to it or desregard it as you stated.
Intuition by itself isn't the answer. It takes first instinct or intuitial coupled with the breakdown of every single scenario with direct relevence in a wholly marally right perspective with the ability to catch manipulative, negative, selfish motives defore they become intertwined in the conclusion.
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Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 29, 2015, 03:43:44 PM
I don't claim some high up status over nonbelievers.
You think you know things we don't.
You are wrong.
Go away.
You think you know things that I don't.
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I'm trying to show you these things not keep them for myself.
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:wtff: :wtff: :wtff: Another religious nut that had his shell cracked off and showing his true colors----"I used to be an atheists"----you can make other religious nuts believe that, but you are not going to make any atheist believe that you disingenuous proselytizing fool. :butt: :fU:
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 29, 2015, 04:15:16 PM
I'm trying to show you these things not keep them for myself.
You have nothing we haven't seen hundreds of times before.
Go away.
Not going anywhere and not forcing you to read or participate.
Why so negative?
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Hi, Singulorum
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 29, 2015, 04:28:08 PM
Not going anywhere and not forcing you to read or participate.
Why so negative?
Because I'm sick of your kind. We get a new twat like you every three weeks. Some wanker who thinks they're the first one to show us this uninteresting bullshit. As soon as you leave, another one exactly like you will pop up. In a month we'll forget your name and we certainly won't remember anything you said. We won't remember you saying it, anyway, because you are just like the last fifty wankers who've come here this year alone.
So I'm negative because we'd just shut the last one like you up and now here you are doing the exact same thing as the last one.
Stop shitting on our lawn.
Go away.
"Why so negative?" Are you really so stupid you don't know? You're not preaching to the choir here mental defective. Why don't you ask your all knowledgeable God why we are negative towards you? No ones making you come here or read our posts either, are they? :wall: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah:
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 29, 2015, 02:36:33 PM
You refute the very core of existence due to the inability to fit it into a flawed perception.
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Actually, that is exactly what you are doing.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 29, 2015, 03:43:44 PM
No ass. Faith is saying fuck self preservation in a selfish sense, and is only for the advancement of the greater good.
Pride is thinking you as an individual are better than another individual or group and is never the truth.
I don't claim some high up status over nonbelievers. I just relate to them due to my past beliefs and methodical approach to reality. I sin daily if not more. I am a hypocrite in that I actually understand and do not always conform. I am in no way better than anyone else. I have always thought this and always will. Quite the opposite of pride. I completely agree with most of sciences observations, I just see them differently.
I never claimed any sort of magic, or special knowledge. We all have it. Some don't pay attention to it or desregard it as you stated.
Intuition by itself isn't the answer. It takes first instinct or intuitial coupled with the breakdown of every single scenario with direct relevence in a wholly marally right perspective with the ability to catch manipulative, negative, selfish motives defore they become intertwined in the conclusion.
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When you write this crap, are you drunk, or high? Is that the 'marally' right perspective you have? Must be.
Sober as a judge and less clouded by society.
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Quote... and less clouded by society.
Well, at least he admits he is a nutjob.
sometimes we need to be reminded how off the rail nuts some people can be.
Quote from: aitm on June 29, 2015, 05:49:34 PM
sometimes we need to be reminded how off the rail nuts some people can be.
Ain't than the Truth. This guy is quite the case. Whatever it is he is taking it must be some heavy duty stuff!
Why dont we go to religious pages and try to make them unbeliever? Why do religious people do that always? Why they dont give a shit about what we believe? I think this is rude. They are insane about religion. This is sickness.
We all have sickness unto death ...
Quote from: Baruch on June 29, 2015, 08:00:00 PM
We all have sickness unto death ...
And some, like Søren Kierkegaard, go nuts over their mortality and invent a god to "solve" that.
If Søren Kierkegaard wanted to make a real leap of faith, he needed to join the circus and to trapeze ;-)