Matthew 10:37
King James Version (KJV)
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
If anyone said something in line with that today, they would be seen as a cult member trying to alienate new members.
Even if the person preaching this claimed to be divine, we (society) would acknowledge this as harmful.
Is Christianity a cult?
Yes
Yes, it is.
But why such narrow vision? Doesn't this apply to all religious beliefs?
Quote from: "pr126"Yes, it is.
But why such narrow vision? Doesn't this apply to all religious beliefs?
Except Wicca, PR. Wicca lacks the parameters required to qualify for a cult.
Funny thing is this = almost every other religion calls WICCA a cult. Go figure. LOL
Yes
To me the only difference between "religion" and a "cult" are the number of members...
Get enough of the general population to go along with you and you're a religion..
Look at Scientology!! Mormons.. started as cults and have gained acceptance with the increase of their members..
Quote from: "Teaspoon Shallow"Matthew 10:37
King James Version (KJV)
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
If anyone said something in line with that today, they would be seen as a cult member trying to alienate new members.
Even if the person preaching this claimed to be divine, we (society) would acknowledge this as harmful.
Is Christianity a cult?
Yep. It doesn't sound that far from scientology. Let's rearrange that a little....
He that loveth father or mother more than scientology is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than scientology is not worthy of me and is a suppressive person, probably 1:1 on the tone scale, and therefore though shalt disconnect from them to ensure thy money continueth to flow into our coffers. Love and kisses, David Miscavige. :rolleyes:
Like many things in life, the best way to understand the difference between a religion and a cult is to use beer.
Small micro brew pub: Cult.
Anheuser Busch: Religion.
Not all micro brews become commonly available national brands, just a few. Not all cults become religions, just a few. But they're all beer in the case of the liquid elixer and they're all bullshit in the case of that other stuff.
I suggest a field trip to several of your local fine drinking establishments if you need more info. :-D
You can find definitions of the word cult that can apply to pretty much anything.
Here's one: great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad.
I am devoted to my cat, he will die one day so he's a fad, so I'm a in a cat cult.
No. The difference between a cult and a religion doesn't come down to size or relative newness, but the amount of control an organization has over its members.
Christianity is a sick cult .
The only seemingly difference between a cult and a religion is numbers, and acceptance by society. Cults tend to have it harder precisely because of those reasons.
Quote from: "_Xenu_"No. The difference between a cult and a religion doesn't come down to size or relative newness, but the amount of control an organization has over its members.
Exactly. Cults won't let members leave - or if they do leave, they insist that all relationships between cult members and ex-cultists be cut off. The potential for losing everyone you love is a huge factor in the control that cults have on members.
There are some Christian cults, but mainstream Christianity is, at worst, cult-
like. Ex-Christians (like me) are allowed to remain in contact with Church members, and there are no threats other than the obvious metaphysical threat of Hell (which is not much of a threat to non-believers) leveled towards members who might decide to leave.
Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult. Some of the smaller non-denominational Churches are cults. The Moonies are a cult (Hell, they even controlled who their members married and where they lived). Many of the more extreme sects of Orthodox Judaism are cults. But Christianity as a whole is not a cult, it's just another flavor of woo.
How many cults murder (by divine law) those who leave the cult?
Quote from: "pr126"How many cults murder (by divine law) those who leave the cult?
The only one I know of is Islam.
I am sorry but this is a stupid question. YES every religion starts out as a cult. The only difference between a cult and a religion are numbers.
I agree that a cult tends to have a LOT more control over their members than a mainstream religion. Cults restrict contact with outsiders, making it very difficult for members to maintain contact with even their closest family members and friends. Eventually, all contact is lost, and the individual is completely under the control of the leader and his minions. Cults keep their members busy with praying, meditating, fasting, and other activities that are likely to induce a mental state more conducive to controlling the individual; in other words, they do everything possible to break the individual's resistance and make them more obedient. Male leaders may require all female members to marry them. They may restrict food and water rations; not allow members outdoors or in public without a chaperone; require particular clothing and hair styles; and strictly regulate every waking moment--again, all the purpose of isolating a person and brainwashing them into slavery.
Mainstream Christianity isn't like this. Yes, most people do become brainwashed into believing the dumbest things, but they can leave their church and attend a different one, or leave the religion altogether. They are not generally forced to live in fenced-in communes, where outsiders cannot enter, nor are they forbidden from seeing family members--not even unbelieving family and friends. In fact, one of the commands of Christianity is to go into the world and make converts. There are some sects within Christianity that certainly qualify as cults; but the religion as a whole doesn't really fit the description, IMO.
Quote from: "Brian37"I am sorry but this is a stupid question. YES every religion starts out as a cult. The only difference between a cult and a religion are numbers.
You may consider this a stupid question but did you notice the divided opinions of your peers are?
I never considered Christianity a cult previously, but this bible passage struck a strange chord with me.
Thanks to all who contributed.
cult /k?lt/Noun
1. A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
2. A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.
Definition 1., sure.
Definition 2. has now got me thinking that depending on your perspective then it does meet this criteria too.
Luke 14:26New International Version (NIV)26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.
If my kids advised that they were leaving and decided to hate me so they could become someone disciple I would consider that to be very friggin strange and sinister. Very cult like.
In localised areas where Christians are the minority then that too fits the description. In the future if Christianity slips in popularity behind another religion or lack of religion, then will it one day been seen by the general public as a cult?
Re-reading the bible with a different mindset makes me wonder why / how I was once convinced it was the word of a god. :-k
Quote from: "Davka"Quote from: "pr126"How many cults murder (by divine law) those who leave the cult?
The only one I know of is Islam.
Maybe the KGB also counts.
The verse you cite is certainly useful to Christian-based cults, but most Christians don't actually follow the Bible. In fact, nobody ever followed the Bible - if they did, they'd be a psychotic wreck inside of a week. So while the Bible might contain all sorts of cultish nonsense, that doesn't make current mainstream Christianity a cult. Bronze-age YHWHism was certainly a cult, and some strains of Christianity have always been cults, sometimes more than others. But today? Most Christians use the Bible to justify their lives, not as a guide to living.
The Orange Papers
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html)
Seriously people, this is a cult
http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?t=24064 (http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?t=24064)
Would you like to be a cult leader? Here's how to do it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E)
A cult is a religion with no political power.
Quote from: "baddogma"A cult is a religion with no political power.
No, a cult is an organization that wields control over its members well beyond whats considered socially normal.
Quote from: "_Xenu_"Quote from: "baddogma"A cult is a religion with no political power.
No, a cult is an organization that wields control over its members well beyond whats considered socially normal.
The problem is, the fact that cults (in the case of most, simply an unfamiliar religion in that particular region) are not socially accepted would appear to be the very reason that many of them have "control over its members beyond what is considered socially normal". And basically all religions have gone through that. The Romans (and non-Christians Jews) certainly considered Christianity to be the then-equivalent of a cult, with the Romans even joking that Christians ate babies (the irony!)
In other words, social ostracism and unacceptance are the only distinctions of a cult that I can see.
It is thousands of "cults"
Quote from: "baddogma"A cult is a religion with no political power.
Why is a religion with no political power a cult; and a religion with political power Not?
Quote from: "baddogma"A cult is a religion with no political power.
I think most people would argue that something like Scientology is a cult, and they wield considerable political power relative to their size in some areas (even here in the UK sadly).
I would like to see a list of those "Christian states".
Or better still, the command in the bible to kill those leaving Christianity.
Quote from: "Teaspoon Shallow"Matthew 10:37
King James Version (KJV)
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
If anyone said something in line with that today, they would be seen as a cult member trying to alienate new members.
Even if the person preaching this claimed to be divine, we (society) would acknowledge this as harmful.
Is Christianity a cult?
I'm in the middle of reading the book written by the niece of David Miscavage about her life in the Church of Scientology. They
heavily push church over everyone else including friends and family, even forcing Sea Org families to split up in different parts of the country to the point the kids and parents hardly ever see each other or talk to each other and are made to feel like they're wrong for missing each other.
So yeah, Christianity in its purest form is a cult. Very few Christian sects still take that verse to heart, though.
* http://www.amazon.com/Jenna-Miscavige-Hill/e/B0094KVGVE (http://www.amazon.com/Jenna-Miscavige-Hill/e/B0094KVGVE) It's a good book and quite an interesting take on growing up amongst the highest levels of the church. I've read a lot about Scientology before, but some of the stuff in here is still blowing my mind.
Quote from: "Davka"Quote from: "pr126"How many cults murder (by divine law) those who leave the cult?
The only one I know of is Islam.
Plenty including Christianity completely turn their backs on and outcast those who leave and have murdered in the past. Read some stories in the archives of this forum of people who lost friends and family for being an atheist. Islam still gets away with real murder because divine law = legal law in most Muslim countries.
Quote from: "GurrenLagann"Quote from: "_Xenu_"Quote from: "baddogma"A cult is a religion with no political power.
No, a cult is an organization that wields control over its members well beyond whats considered socially normal.
The problem is, the fact that cults (in the case of most, simply an unfamiliar religion in that particular region) are not socially accepted would appear to be the very reason that many of them have "control over its members beyond what is considered socially normal". And basically all religions have gone through that. The Romans (and non-Christians Jews) certainly considered Christianity to be the then-equivalent of a cult, with the Romans even joking that Christians ate babies (the irony!)
In other words, social ostracism and unacceptance are the only distinctions of a cult that I can see.
Social ostracism and unacceptance are irrelevant. The Catholic Church was a cult in the dark ages, despite holding considerable power. Many strains of Islam are cults regardless of popular support. It all comes down to the level of control.
Quote from: "BarkAtTheMoon"I'm in the middle of reading the book written by the niece of David Miscavage about her life in the Church of Scientology. They heavily push church over everyone else including friends and family, even forcing Sea Org families to split up in different parts of the country to the point the kids and parents hardly ever see each other or talk to each other and are made to feel like they're wrong for missing each other.
So yeah, Christianity in its purest form is a cult. Very few Christian sects still take that verse to heart, though.
* http://www.amazon.com/Jenna-Miscavige-Hill/e/B0094KVGVE (http://www.amazon.com/Jenna-Miscavige-Hill/e/B0094KVGVE) It's a good book and quite an interesting take on growing up amongst the highest levels of the church. I've read a lot about Scientology before, but some of the stuff in here is still blowing my mind.
Jenna Miscavige Hill is a sweetheart from what I hear about her. She's nothing like her uncle Dave. If you want to read the stories of escaped ex-Scientologists,
Blown For Good by Marc Headley is another good one.
> To me the only difference between "religion" and a "cult" are the number of members...
A religion is a cult with political clout.
Frank
Quote from: "FrankDK"> To me the only difference between "religion" and a "cult" are the number of members...
A religion is a cult with political clout.
Frank
This idea has already been refuted more than a few times above...
Quote from: "_Xenu_"Quote from: "baddogma"A cult is a religion with no political power.
No, a cult is an organization that wields control over its members well beyond whats considered socially normal.
The army is a cult?
Quote from: "Bibliofagus"Quote from: "_Xenu_"Quote from: "baddogma"A cult is a religion with no political power.
No, a cult is an organization that wields control over its members well beyond whats considered socially normal.
The army is a cult?
LMAO. In a sense, yes. They do try to completely tear down your personality, and replace it with a soldiers persona.
I keep reading clit and laughing.....
thought you would want to know.
Quote from: "_Xenu_"Quote from: "BarkAtTheMoon"I'm in the middle of reading the book written by the niece of David Miscavage about her life in the Church of Scientology. They heavily push church over everyone else including friends and family, even forcing Sea Org families to split up in different parts of the country to the point the kids and parents hardly ever see each other or talk to each other and are made to feel like they're wrong for missing each other.
So yeah, Christianity in its purest form is a cult. Very few Christian sects still take that verse to heart, though.
* http://www.amazon.com/Jenna-Miscavige-Hill/e/B0094KVGVE (http://www.amazon.com/Jenna-Miscavige-Hill/e/B0094KVGVE) It's a good book and quite an interesting take on growing up amongst the highest levels of the church. I've read a lot about Scientology before, but some of the stuff in here is still blowing my mind.
Jenna Miscavige Hill is a sweetheart from what I hear about her. She's nothing like her uncle Dave. If you want to read the stories of escaped ex-Scientologists, Blown For Good by Marc Headley is the golden standard.
Funny you should say that, because that looks to be a significant part of the reason for her turn from the church, her leaders saying she was a terrible person for various little infractions against the church, basically caring about people she that were supposedly beneath her, and her realizing she was a good person because of it. Even her uncle and aunt started the tale as relatively normal and got progressively more vicious as they gained power after LRH's death. I'm 63% through her book according to Kindle, and it's been a good read the whole way. I highly recommend it. It's different also from other Scientology stories I've seen in that she was basically born into the higher levels of the church and grew up training to be in the Sea Org when she was elementary school age.
I'll look into downloading that book when I'm done, though I might need a bit of a break between Scientology books.
Quote from: "_Xenu_"Quote from: "Bibliofagus"The army is a cult?
LMAO. In a sense, yes. They do try to completely tear down your personality, and replace it with a soldiers persona.
The Marines are big on that. I've known guys from high school who came back completely different people, and this was peace time long before all the current wars.
Quote from: "_Xenu_"Quote from: "Bibliofagus"The army is a cult?
LMAO. In a sense, yes. They do try to completely tear down your personality, and replace it with a soldiers persona.
I agree. But if the army is included that has an impact on the usefullness of the term 'cult'...
There should be a religious connotation in your definition at least I think.
I also think the groups we call cults are generally highly geographically localized. But I'm not sure if that should be included.
You may not know this, but Shelly Miscavige has been missing for a long time. She's almost certainly off on some sort of RPF gulag, but could be dead and there's no way to know for sure. If you ever want to talk to Jenna, you can probably get ahold of her on her message board at http://www.exscientologykids.com/eskforums/ (http://www.exscientologykids.com/eskforums/) .
Quote from: "Bibliofagus"I agree. But if the army is included that has an impact on the usefullness of the term 'cult'...
There should be a religious connotation in your definition at least I think.
Not at all, some cults are quite secular. Ever heard of Amway? Or the Communist Party? Even Scientology started out as non-religious.
Quote from: "Bibliofagus"I also think the groups we call cults are generally highly geographically localized. But I'm not sure if that should be included.
Some are, some aren't.
Quote from: "_Xenu_"Quote from: "FrankDK"> To me the only difference between "religion" and a "cult" are the number of members...
A religion is a cult with political clout.
Frank
This idea has already been refuted more than a few times above...
It's been argued against, but it hasn't been refuted. The key is the definition of cult. Here's what you get when you enter "define:cult" into Google:
cult
/k?lt/
Noun
1. A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
2. A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.
Synonyms
worship - religion - adoration
Definition 1 fits essentially all current religions. What keeps religions out of definition 2 is only their size. Many people qualify as "others" and regard Christianity, Islam, etc., as strange and sinister.
Frank
Quote from: "_Xenu_"Quote from: "Bibliofagus"I agree. But if the army is included that has an impact on the usefullness of the term 'cult'...
There should be a religious connotation in your definition at least I think.
Not at all, some cults are quite secular. Ever heard of Amway? Or the Communist Party? Even Scientology started out as non-religious.
Quote from: "Bibliofagus"I also think the groups we call cults are generally highly geographically localized. But I'm not sure if that should be included.
Some are, some aren't.
Never heard about Amway before, but I'm assuming you mean this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amway)
And I see what you mean, furthermore you are right.
But criminal organisations would be cults as well. By definition. To me this is problematic.
Maybe we can find a distinctive difference in the reasons for people to join up?
I suppose on a strict reading, you would be right. The mafia does indeed control its members more than most would find socially acceptable. They could be described as a secular cult of sort, even if they don't meet many other typical characteristics. Having said that, anyone who joins the mafia knows what they're doing. Perhaps deceptive recruiting should be added to the definition.
Quote from: "_Xenu_"Perhaps deceptive recruiting should be added to the definition.
Like a promise that you'll go to heaven if you join, or to hell if you don't?
Quote from: "Bibliofagus"Quote from: "_Xenu_"Quote from: "Bibliofagus"I agree. But if the army is included that has an impact on the usefullness of the term 'cult'...
There should be a religious connotation in your definition at least I think.
Not at all, some cults are quite secular. Ever heard of Amway? Or the Communist Party? Even Scientology started out as non-religious.
Quote from: "Bibliofagus"I also think the groups we call cults are generally highly geographically localized. But I'm not sure if that should be included.
Some are, some aren't.
Never heard about Amway before, but I'm assuming you mean this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amway)
And I see what you mean, furthermore you are right.
But criminal organisations would be cults as well. By definition. To me this is problematic.
Maybe we can find a distinctive difference in the reasons for people to join up?
Amway's more pyramid scam than cult I think, though most pyramid scams have a certain amount of cultish influence on members.
Quote from: "_Xenu_"Social ostracism and unacceptance are irrelevant. The Catholic Church was a cult in the dark ages, despite holding considerable power. Many strains of Islam are cults regardless of popular support. It all comes down to the level of control.
It IS relevant, because part of the reason for the greater control is the fact that they are ostracized for being too alien to the society. Hence, the leaders of the cult/religion
necessarily have to maintain greater control, lest the cult/religion fizzle out of existence because of people who can't take the ostracization and try to conform.
How was the CC a cult back then? How are certain sects of Islam cults? If all you're merely saying is that X branch of Y religion dubbed X a cult, you're not saying anything meaningful, much in the same way that various Christian denominations claiming other denominations to not be "true" Christians is a meaningless statement near as I can tell.
Quote from: "_Xenu_"Quote from: "FrankDK"> To me the only difference between "religion" and a "cult" are the number of members...
A religion is a cult with political clout.
Frank
This idea has already been refuted more than a few times above...
I dispute that very much.
If you listen to fundies, everything but xtianity is a cult.
Absolutely. The only difference between religion and cult is the number of followers + power.
Cults get boners over the thought of being a religion, just ask any new religion.
Quote from: "_Xenu_"Quote from: "BarkAtTheMoon"I'm in the middle of reading the book written by the niece of David Miscavage about her life in the Church of Scientology. They heavily push church over everyone else including friends and family, even forcing Sea Org families to split up in different parts of the country to the point the kids and parents hardly ever see each other or talk to each other and are made to feel like they're wrong for missing each other.
So yeah, Christianity in its purest form is a cult. Very few Christian sects still take that verse to heart, though.
* http://www.amazon.com/Jenna-Miscavige-Hill/e/B0094KVGVE (http://www.amazon.com/Jenna-Miscavige-Hill/e/B0094KVGVE) It's a good book and quite an interesting take on growing up amongst the highest levels of the church. I've read a lot about Scientology before, but some of the stuff in here is still blowing my mind.
Jenna Miscavige Hill is a sweetheart from what I hear about her. She's nothing like her uncle Dave. If you want to read the stories of escaped ex-Scientologists, Blown For Good by Marc Headley is another good one.
A
Piece Of Blue Sky by Jon Atack is another one. A great read. It used to be rarer than rocking horse shit due to continuing Scn. litigation, but I'm not sure if that is still the case....
Quote from: "FrankDK"The key is the definition of cult. Here's what you get when you enter "define:cult" into Google:
cult
/k?lt/
Noun
1. A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
2. A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.
Synonyms
worship - religion - adoration
Definition 1 fits essentially all current religions. What keeps religions out of definition 2 is only their size. Many people qualify as "others" and regard Christianity, Islam, etc., as strange and sinister.
Frank
I guess when you look at the definitions, the next step would be to unpack the term 'religious' too in order to better define the previous term.
Quote from: "GurrenLagann"How was the CC a cult back then?
By wielding vast say in matters of life and death, far beyond say, your local Unitarians. They had the power to imprison people, excommunicate them, or even burn them at the stake merely for disagreement with doctrine. People were expected to attend Mass daily and confess their sins to a priest. That's a cult, no matter how widely it was accepted.
Quote from: "GurrenLagann"How are certain sects of Islam cults?
By wielding vast say in matters of life and death, far beyond say, your local Unitarians. Wahhabi Islam, as practice and taught in Saudi Arabia would be one. Do I even need to explain their dominance over individuals?
Quote from: "GurrenLagann"If all you're merely saying is that X branch of Y religion dubbed X a cult, you're not saying anything meaningful,
Of course I am. I'm stating that certain offshoots of Y religion are cults. Aka, Jehovah's Witness, LDS, the Moonies. Just because something has its roots in religion Y, doesn't disqualify it from being a cult.
Quote from: "GurrenLagann"much in the same way that various Christian denominations claiming other denominations to not be "true" Christians is a meaningless statement near as I can tell.
It is meaningless, because they use theological criteria instead of psychological.
Quote from: "Youssuf Ramadan"A Piece Of Blue Sky by Jon Atack is another one. A great read. It used to be rarer than rocking horse shit due to continuing Scn. litigation, but I'm not sure if that is still the case....
Its something of a tradition among people who write about Scientology to eventually make their work free to to the public. You can read
A Piece Of Blue Sky here.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shel ... ntents.htm (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/atack/contents.htm)
Quote from: "GurrenLagann"It IS relevant, because part of the reason for the greater control is the fact that they are ostracized for being too alien to the society. Hence, the leaders of the cult/religion necessarily have to maintain greater control, lest the cult/religion fizzle out of existence because of people who can't take the ostracization and try to conform.
Rather than making a good point here, you're presenting a "chicken or the egg" type paradox. Even ignoring that, it still doesn't address older organizations with mainstream reach that are still cults.
Quote from: "_Xenu_"Quote from: "Youssuf Ramadan"A Piece Of Blue Sky by Jon Atack is another one. A great read. It used to be rarer than rocking horse shit due to continuing Scn. litigation, but I'm not sure if that is still the case....
Its something of a tradition among people who write about Scientology to eventually make their work free to to the public. You can read A Piece Of Blue Sky here.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shel ... ntents.htm (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/atack/contents.htm)
It seems like the way things are going, Scientology is destined to implode with all the insane paranoia in the church and so many top execs bailing including about all of David Miscavige's family and whatever happened to his wife Shelly. They clearly suppress knowledge of what happened with SP's within the church, but people are gonna notice people like that disappearing after a while.
I was looking at Operation Clambake earlier and saw a thing about the two of his former top guys, Rathbun & Rinder, who left and have accused David of abusing them. They are two of the people (along with Rathbun's wife) that are pretty prominent in Jenna Hill's book that had been dealing, sometimes relatively understanding sometimes downright abusive, with her during her troubles before she left the church. It's strange at the point I'm at in her book that those guy's have since left the church. Seems ol' Dave is trying to one up the level of crazy LRH reached in his latter years.
ETA: I really need to just hurry up and finish the rest of her book. One thing with reading on a Kindle app, it keeps you from staying up real late banging out a bunch of chapters cause you don't as easily see just how much of the book you have left like with a physical book. But it also keeps you from banging out a bunch of chapters cause you don't as easily see just how much of the book you have left.
Quote from: "Jmpty"If you listen to fundies, everything but xtianity is a cult.
Everything but their particular cult is a cult. Catholicism is a cult to most fundies, as is Mormonism, Seventh Day Adventism, Christian Science, etc.
Quote from: "BarkAtTheMoon"It seems like the way things are going, Scientology is destined to implode with all the insane paranoia in the church and so many top execs bailing including about all of David Miscavige's family and whatever happened to his wife Shelly. They clearly suppress knowledge of what happened with SP's within the church, but people are gonna notice people like that disappearing after a while.
All very true. It makes for some entertaining reading though, because CofS is pretty much
always being rocked by one scandal or another.
Quote from: "BarkAtTheMoon"I was looking at Operation Clambake earlier and saw a thing about the two of his former top guys, Rathbun & Rinder, who left and have accused David of abusing them.
Rathbun in particular is intent on leading a Scientology version of the Reformation, while Rinder tends to keep a somewhat lower profile. You wouldn't believe the stuff Rathbun in particular has been through. Here's a small taste:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOZF0ugtnEc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOZF0ugtnEc)
What these guys did/do to him goes beyond stalking. They even had matching shirts designed to mock him.
Quote from: "BarkAtTheMoon"They are two of the people (along with Rathbun's wife) that are pretty prominent in Jenna Hill's book that had been dealing, sometimes relatively understanding sometimes downright abusive, with her during her troubles before she left the church.
Marty was a close lieutenant to Miscavige and has admitted to being involved in some really bad stuff. Mike Rinder was the head of OSA itself, but finally blew after the BBC flap with John Sweeney and Tommy Davis. He knew perfectly well Miscavige was going to RPF him.
Quote from: "BarkAtTheMoon"It's strange at the point I'm at in her book that those guy's have since left the church. Seems ol' Dave is trying to one up the level of crazy LRH reached in his latter years.
He's moved well beyond it, IMO. Hubbard never had to deal with the Internet, which has become Scientologys Vietnam.
I've been meaning to read Jenna's book myself. I went ahead and ordered it from the library.