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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Topic started by: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 11:25:44 AM

Title: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 11:25:44 AM
The realization there is no God is not really very profound.  And identifying as an atheist is not either.  It is usually a transient view for most of us on the way to believing something else just as ridiculous.  So the real issue is not god but just us.  And atheists often reach their views not because of rational observation but because we are still looking for something to believe in. The reason we are here is so we can still retain some sense of belonging while behaving just like the religious do.

"Researchers who study the psychology and neuroscience of religion are helping to explain why such beliefs are so enduring. They’re finding that religion may, in fact, be a byproduct of the way our brains work, growing from cognitive tendencies to seek order from chaos, to anthropomorphize our environment and to believe the world around us was created for our use."

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2010/12/believe.aspx
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Mike Cl on April 20, 2015, 12:30:27 PM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 11:25:44 AM
The realization there is no God is not really very profound.  And identifying as an atheist is not either.  It is usually a transient view for most of us on the way to believing something else just as ridiculous.  So the real issue is not god but just us.  And atheists often reach their views not because of rational observation but because we are still looking for something to believe in. The reason we are here is so we can still retain some sense of belonging while behaving just like the religious do.

"Researchers who study the psychology and neuroscience of religion are helping to explain why such beliefs are so enduring. They’re finding that religion may, in fact, be a byproduct of the way our brains work, growing from cognitive tendencies to seek order from chaos, to anthropomorphize our environment and to believe the world around us was created for our use."

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2010/12/believe.aspx
Not sure I agree with you.  If, as your study indicates, that religion is a byproduct of the way our brains work, then realizing there is no god is profound and going against how our brain is built. 

Historically, professing to be an atheist is most profound--it could and usually would, cost you your life.  It was and is still far from the norm.

And the real issue has always been us and not god, since we, as humans, invented god.  Of course humans want to create order out of chaos---wow!, what a revelation!  In the past, without the aid of science, religion was the easiest way to do that.  Now, we don't need god to revel his secrets to us, we can discern them ourselves.  God is a vestige of what we used to need and use to make sense of our surroundings; now religion is an anchor, or worse, to us understanding how nature really works.  So, it is quite profound for us to shuck religion and rely on science instead.  And yes, science has already revealed to us that we do belong as one on this planet--that there are no races, and we are, indeed, star stuff--all of us, and everything on this planet--, and that we need to start acting like we belong and that we can destroy this planet if we don't act like we belong.  And religion is one of the major institutions that keep us apart.  There really is no 'us vs them' that religion constantly pounds into us is the case--'We have the truth, and the others do not.'  There are no 'others', only 'us'.   

You suggest--"The reason we are here is so we can still retain some sense of belonging while behaving just like the religious do."  And I say bullshit!!!  Atheists are not just another belief system.  It is not based on any part of faith.  It is not another word for a religion.  Atheists do not walk lock-step on any issue.  Proof?  Read any thread on this board!  I don't come here to 'belong', but to read and exchange ideas with a sane batch of people.  People with diverse ideas and thoughts; ideas I like to read about, even if they are not my thoughts; maybe because they are not my thoughts.  This is not a board of a bunch of 'yes' people.  If they smell bullshit, they will tell you about it.  Good.  If my ideas or thoughts need to be refined, then this is a great place to bring and share them.  I hope you stick around long enough to do likewise.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: doorknob on April 20, 2015, 12:46:14 PM
"And atheists often reach their views not because of rational observation but because we are still looking for something to believe in. The reason we are here is so we can still retain some sense of belonging while behaving just like the religious do."

um what?

I don't think any of us are still looking for something to believe in. I'm not. We just simply don't need to believe anything. Religion is a superstition created by ancient people who did not have science to explain the world to them. We don't need religion any more. And no one here behaves like the religious do.

You don't see atheists crashing planes into buildings or protesting gays at funerals or many of the other crazy shit religious people do in the name of religion.

Other than a lack of belief in god there is no other subscription to being an atheists.

We all have different ideas and different thought processes.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Termin on April 20, 2015, 12:52:55 PM
 Atheism is not a behavior, therefore it cannot be a abnormal behavior:)

   And that article just seems to point out that religion was invented by man as a coping mechanism.


  Now I just wish I choose A B normal as a user name and used this as an Avatar :)

(http://b-i.forbesimg.com/phildemuth/files/2013/09/abnormal.png)
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: doorknob on April 20, 2015, 12:56:48 PM
I believe you can still change your avatar.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Solitary on April 20, 2015, 01:21:28 PM
 :wtff: What else can you expect from the new inquisitors?  :fU: :axe: :super: How many people have to suffer because they don't believe in the same thing as the psychiatrists psychologists and religious nuts, until people realize religious psychologists and psychiatrists are no different than witch doctors, shamans, and that even religious neurologist support their assumptions with neurology by interpreting the results to support their prejudices and bigotry just like religious people pick and choose from the bible to do the same thing? They can't even define "NORMAL" behavior, but they know what it is in their minds. I had six different psychiatrists say I wasn't insane, but abnormal because of the results of their tests at an out clinic in Phoenix Arizona.

They even accused me of being a Scientologists because I was good in science and math. And they had a field day looking at my paintings, and the fact I was a musician that practiced, practiced, and practiced more, showing I was obsessive compulsive. And when I told them I was an atheists they rolled their eyes and knew for sure I wasn't normal---"SO WHAT?" I AM WHAT I AM, AND I KNOW WHAT I AM---A HUMAN BEING THAT IS DIFFERENT AND PROUD OF IT. Solitary aka Kiang, Bid Daddy, Wild Bill, and the best kisser in the West that can be verified by Rock Stars, female that is. 
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Desdinova on April 20, 2015, 01:23:35 PM
Quote from: Termin on April 20, 2015, 12:52:55 PM
Atheism is not a behavior, therefore it cannot be a abnormal behavior:)

   And that article just seems to point out that religion was invented by man as a coping mechanism.


  Now I just wish I choose A B normal as a user name and used this as an Avatar :)

(http://b-i.forbesimg.com/phildemuth/files/2013/09/abnormal.png)

If you like we can just think of you as A B Normal.  Most of us here are anyway.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Solitary on April 20, 2015, 01:35:04 PM
I'm an ABC abnormal according to my Catholic wife that is still upset about an affair I had 20+ years ago. And of course the reason I did, was because she could feel it at the time, and because of that she became frigid with me, but not with a fellow Mormon worker I should have met because I would really like him. I love this forum, it's where I go for my talk therapy which makes me feel better.  :pidu: :super: :biggrin2: Solitary
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: stromboli on April 20, 2015, 02:03:35 PM
QuoteAdults also tend to search for meaning, particularly during times of uncertainty, research suggests. A 2008 study in Science (Vol. 322, No. 5898) by Jennifer Whitson, PhD, and Adam Galinsky, PhD, found that people were more likely to see patterns in a random display of dots if the researchers first primed them to feel that the participants had no control. This finding suggests that people are primed to see signs and patterns in the world around them, the researchers conclude.
People also have a bias for believing in the supernatural, says Barrett. In his work, he finds that children as young as age 3 naturally attribute supernatural abilities and immortality to “God,” even if they’ve never been taught about God, and they tell elaborate stories about their lives before they were born, what Barrett calls “pre-life.”

People tend to search for meaning and are primed to see patterns in the world around us. And in primitive man without the means to understand, seeking a rational explanation in the supernatural makes sense. But in a modern world where experience and science can provide explanations and reasons, not so much. Scientists by and large tend to towards atheism, not religion. Don't know what you call that- higher brain function? In any case, we have the capability of learning and explaining those drives; which is exactly what the article does.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Termin on April 20, 2015, 02:14:51 PM
Quote from: doorknob on April 20, 2015, 12:56:48 PM
I believe you can still change your avatar.

Oh I know, I just haven't found/made one that really "fits" for me yet. So Ill leave it blank for now :)


Quote from: Desdinova on April 20, 2015, 01:23:35 PM
If you like we can just think of you as A B Normal.  Most of us here are anyway.

  I'm sure ill get that reputation soon enough :)

  I better leave this thread, lest I derail it further ....
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Mike Cl on April 20, 2015, 02:38:46 PM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 11:25:44 AM
The realization there is no God is not really very profound.  And identifying as an atheist is not either.  It is usually a transient view for most of us on the way to believing something else just as ridiculous.
The more I read this the more pissed I become.  Are you a theist trying to be in disguise?  Realizing there is no god is extremely profound!  How could it not be??!!  Are you fucking blind?  Can't read history???  And identifying as an atheist is also profound.  Most atheists historically were atheists quietly for fear for their social status or life.  Being atheist is not an old and venerated way of thinking.  It is relative new; much newer than religion.

What are you implying when you say: " It is usually a transient view for most of us on the way to believing something else just as ridiculous. "  Are you suggesting that atheism is simply a waystation of philosophy?  That the really mature thinkers end up 'believing' in something?  So, we atheists are simply children wandering in the wilderness until we find a more mature way of thinking?  You, my man, are so full of shit it is coming out of you typing fingers!  Since you feel that way, why don't to find some nice theist board and confess to them about your childlike beliefs.  You fucking make me sick!  At least when a person who is a theist comes here they identify themselves as such.  I have to had it to them, that does take a little courage (unless they are only a dirve-by) and the longer they stay the more courage they display.  Misplaced, but courage nonetheless.  I don't know what you display--hopeless stupidity??!!
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: the_antithesis on April 20, 2015, 02:45:33 PM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 11:25:44 AM
The realization there is no God is not really very profound.

What's a god?
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: aitm on April 20, 2015, 02:54:28 PM


Oh yeah...good ole dr barrett.. a real non biased report:


Barrett is described in the New York Times as a "prominent member of the byproduct camp" and "an observant Christian who believes in “an all-knowing, all-powerful, perfectly good God who brought the universe into being,” [and] “that the purpose for people is to love God and love each other.”

More bull-shit falling off the trailer of bull-shit.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: aitm on April 20, 2015, 02:57:15 PM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 11:25:44 AM
The realization there is no God is not really very profound.    It is usually a transient view for most of us on the way to believing something else just as ridiculous. "

well, please by all means enlighten us as to what can possibly be "more ridiculous" than gods that man has created by the thousands.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Feral Atheist on April 20, 2015, 03:43:14 PM
We are all born without the knowledge of any god, thus atheist.

The programming to become a theists typically begins before potty training is started.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 03:53:10 PM
I am so glad to see this thread is gaining attention.  And I can only assure all of you that I am in no manner a theist of any sort.  I may be a crazy old man but I identify mostly with just being a naturalist. Atheism from my point of view is a prerequisite for being a naturalist.   But not all atheists are naturalists because many still hold supernatural views.  Which clearly indicates that atheism may not be as rational as we like to think.  The idea of a God for me is such a gross oversimplification of reality that I can no longer even imagine it.  But just as surely a religious fundamentalist will see you and I in the same way.  The idea of a reality without God is as unimaginable to them as the reverse is to me.  And all the science and facts you can throw at them will make no difference whatsoever.  I say this from experience.  But from being a naturalist it is also clear that what may appear supernatural today may be perfectly natural tomorrow.  (I hope nobody takes that statement and uses it to justify another new religion)  Hence we have the science of Cosmology which I absolutely love.  So in looking at that we begin to look at infinity.  A popular notion these days is that infinity creates certainty.  Every possibility becomes reality.  So in other words if infinity exists then there has to be another universe just like this but where God actually exists.  So which one are we in?  The one with the God or the one without the god?
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Munch on April 20, 2015, 03:56:16 PM
Okay, let me ask this then, when you say your a naturalist, explain that, because it has many levels to what being a naturalist is. Context would help here.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 04:19:23 PM
Quote from: Munch on April 20, 2015, 03:56:16 PM
Okay, let me ask this then, when you say your a naturalist, explain that, because it has many levels to what being a naturalist is. Context would help here.

Naturalist as opposed to supernaturalist depending on what you are smoking.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Mike Cl on April 20, 2015, 04:50:37 PM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 04:19:23 PM
Naturalist as opposed to supernaturalist depending on what you are smoking.
I'm a little dense, I guess.  But, to you, what is a 'naturalist'?  If the universe was created in a natural way, then everything is natural.  Then miracles, supernatural and all other words indicating something other than natural are nonsensical. 
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 05:12:58 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 20, 2015, 04:50:37 PM
I'm a little dense, I guess.  But, to you, what is a 'naturalist'?  If the universe was created in a natural way, then everything is natural.  Then miracles, supernatural and all other words indicating something other than natural are nonsensical.

I would not put it that way.  I would say such ideas are just highly speculative and not currently based in reality.

I am struggling with that concept of infinity though.  Having a reality like this in which there actually were a god is beyond my comprehension.  Maybe my problem is trying to grasp how that could even be a possibility.  There are some pretty far out ideas out there on the fringes of Cosmology.

Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: GSOgymrat on April 20, 2015, 05:26:13 PM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 11:25:44 AM
The realization there is no God is not really very profound.  And identifying as an atheist is not either.  It is usually a transient view for most of us on the way to believing something else just as ridiculous.  So the real issue is not god but just us.  And atheists often reach their views not because of rational observation but because we are still looking for something to believe in. The reason we are here is so we can still retain some sense of belonging while behaving just like the religious do.

"Researchers who study the psychology and neuroscience of religion are helping to explain why such beliefs are so enduring. They’re finding that religion may, in fact, be a byproduct of the way our brains work, growing from cognitive tendencies to seek order from chaos, to anthropomorphize our environment and to believe the world around us was created for our use."

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2010/12/believe.aspx

The article you are quoting doesn't support your assertion that atheism "is usually a transient view for most of us on the way to believing something else just as ridiculous," in fact it doesn't support anything you said. I don't understand how you came to your assertions from that article.

By the way, naturalism is the belief if anything exists in our universe, it is part of nature, and has a natural cause or origin, and there is no need for any other explanation.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 05:51:14 PM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on April 20, 2015, 05:26:13 PM
The article you are quoting doesn't support your assertion that atheism "is usually a transient view for most of us on the way to believing something else just as ridiculous," in fact it doesn't support anything you said. I don't understand how you came to your assertions from that article.

By the way, naturalism is the belief is anything exists in our universe, it is part of nature, and has a natural cause or origin, and there is no need for any other explanation.

What I posted was not supposed to be taken as an argument.  The quote was only added to clarify human behavior.  Do you think a naturalist is supposed to stop searching for understanding?  I gather you don't agree that atheism is often transitional?  Why?
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Mike Cl on April 20, 2015, 06:07:22 PM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 04:19:23 PM
Naturalist as opposed to supernaturalist depending on what you are smoking.
You keep ducking the question.  What is a naturalist, to you?????
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Munch on April 20, 2015, 06:13:36 PM
Yeah, much like how atheism isn't a set issue on itself, like you could be atheist but understanding of theism, or you could be anti-theist, or you could be bordering on agnosticism, I'm fairly certain you are not just one set archetype when it comes to naturalism Givemeareason, so for context sake what degree of it are you standing on?
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 06:19:10 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 20, 2015, 06:07:22 PM
You keep ducking the question.  What is a naturalist, to you?????

I did not realize you were trying to pin me down.  And I am not sure I want to continue based on the way I perceive your response.  Are you looking for a thoughtful discussion or something else?
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 06:28:41 PM
Quote from: Munch on April 20, 2015, 06:13:36 PM
Yeah, much like how atheism isn't a set issue on itself, like you could be atheist but understanding of theism, or you could be anti-theist, or you could be bordering on agnosticism, I'm fairly certain you are not just one set archetype when it comes to naturalism Givemeareason, so for context sake what degree of it are you standing on?

The simple version... natural vs. supernatural.  I am only a person who ponders things and not some great philosopher.  Is there some controversial concept here that I need to become acquainted with.  I am more interested in exchanging ideas than adhering to doctrines.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Mike Cl on April 20, 2015, 06:39:53 PM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 06:19:10 PM
I did not realize you were trying to pin me down.  And I am not sure I want to continue based on the way I perceive your response.  Are you looking for a thoughtful discussion or something else?
Yes, I am looking for thoughtful discussion.  But how can I discuss something when I don't know what we are discussing?  I don't know what you think on the subject. 

Let me start.  I don't see a need for god nor evidence that one exists.  I see the entire universe as nature.  It was created with or during the big bang.  But it seems to me that the universe's creation caused the big bang, not the other way around.  Black holes suck in energy, and when a critical amount is gathered, it can break off from that black hole and start another universe.  So, our universe is part of a system that goes on forever.  No, I don't know how it started and will never know that.  That bit of energy that started this universe had all that was needed to create life.  Where it would start would be a matter of math, not chance.  In other words, life would start somewhere, exactly where, who could know?  So, all is natural.  God or the gods are all supernatural, which means they are the stuff of fantasy.  Nothing can be supernatural or other worldly.  God was created by man as an easy way to explain the 'why' or our lives.  And to give the controller of said religion control over the people. 

So, does any of that jive with what you believe?  If not, where do we disagree?
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Aletheia on April 20, 2015, 07:11:13 PM
I'm less inclined to see atheism as an abnormal behaviour. We are pattern seeking creatures, tailored by evolution because these tendencies helped our species thrive. In our effort to uncover more patterns in nature we developed an  intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment, otherwise known as science. Here, we had a way of studying patterns in depth and following them back to their origins - sometimes from external sources and at other times, from our own personal biases. It also garnered much better results than superficial pattern recognition, in that we were able to develop technology and make accurate predictions about the environment around us.

It is not abnormal at all for pattern recognition beings to be drawn to science, which in turn leads to the rational conclusion that believing in something for which there isn't any evidence for is irrational. Why waste the mental resources on it?

Others who feel overwhelmed by the hard work required in studying science and mastering critical thinking leave themselves no other choice than to cling to whatever explanation they feel is more accurate. It is instinctual for us to demand explanation - our survival has depended on this for millennia. When a person cannot gain a logical explanation for the patterns they see, then they will accept an illogical explanation.

Most people who are uneducated or have had their education derailed by religious indoctrination will accept illogical explanations because they are unaware of the logical explanations. Religious institutions pull from other instincts as well - such as tribal cohesiveness, preference for the familiar over the unfamiliar, and preservation of the sense of self (especially if they consider religion to be a defining characteristic of themselves).

Human beings are multi-faceted creatures influenced by both the rational and irrational. A study like this cannot draw logical conclusions unless you account for the other variables which influence our thoughts and therefore our choices.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: trdsf on April 20, 2015, 09:11:38 PM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 11:25:44 AM
"Researchers who study the psychology and neuroscience of religion are helping to explain why such beliefs are so enduring. They’re finding that religion may, in fact, be a byproduct of the way our brains work, growing from cognitive tendencies to seek order from chaos, to anthropomorphize our environment and to believe the world around us was created for our use."

I think this is probably right, or close to it.  Our brains are so good at pattern matching, they even find patterns when there aren't any, and can latch onto a simple pattern and stick with that when the more accurate pattern explaining events is subtler and harder to notice.

And I think that's where religion comes from: it's an early attempt made by our ancestors at explaining the world around them.  It matched simple patterns when the complex ones were harder to spot: Lightning comes from the sky, something made the lightning, there must be something very like me up there only very much more powerful throwing lightning down versus complex interplay of static charges, winds, and ice in a largely stochastic process that to this day is not fully understood.  Which one of those explanations is Og the Caveman more likely to go for?
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 09:18:15 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 20, 2015, 06:39:53 PM
Yes, I am looking for thoughtful discussion.  But how can I discuss something when I don't know what we are discussing?  I don't know what you think on the subject. 

Let me start.  I don't see a need for god nor evidence that one exists.  I see the entire universe as nature.  It was created with or during the big bang.  But it seems to me that the universe's creation caused the big bang, not the other way around.  Black holes suck in energy, and when a critical amount is gathered, it can break off from that black hole and start another universe.  So, our universe is part of a system that goes on forever.  No, I don't know how it started and will never know that.  That bit of energy that started this universe had all that was needed to create life.  Where it would start would be a matter of math, not chance.  In other words, life would start somewhere, exactly where, who could know?  So, all is natural.  God or the gods are all supernatural, which means they are the stuff of fantasy.  Nothing can be supernatural or other worldly.  God was created by man as an easy way to explain the 'why' or our lives.  And to give the controller of said religion control over the people. 

So, does any of that jive with what you believe?  If not, where do we disagree?

Yes, I think we are on the same page up to a point.  But I make a distinction between what I believe and what I might think or speculate on.   We agree down to before the big bang.  The consensus of science is that the big bang did occur.  But it is speculative as to what caused it and I love to entertain the possibilities.  The black hole idea is an excellent one.  So it seems that if that were true universes might come in all different sizes since black holes come in all different sizes.  And then we get into wondering about the boundaries of space and if it exists outside of our universe or could there be universes within our universe and then it gets into string theory which I don't understand and so on.  And as for black holes they such in matter and energy and can even emit energy as well.  I am an old black hole enthuisast.  And as for life I am in awe that it even exists.  It seems so incredibly unnecessary from my tiny point of view.  Which leads me to think this may have happened millions of times before or simultaneously as well (realizing this idea may be flawed since we may also be experiencing it the only time it has happened).  So since life appears so unessential why does it occur and what is happening now as we enter an explosion of knowledge and technology where it appears now possible that we might even create conciousness that is unimaginable???  Why does this appear to be culminating at this point in time?  Seems to sort of detract from existential nihilism from my point of view.  But other than that minor addition we seem in complete agreement.  But what do I know... I am just a biological computer program with very limited data.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 09:36:03 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 20, 2015, 06:07:22 PM
You keep ducking the question.  What is a naturalist, to you?????

I think I diverged a bit off topic but here's another thought.  If there is any purpose in existence, the God we might create this time around might exceed any of our expectations both now and forever.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Mike Cl on April 20, 2015, 09:46:02 PM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 09:36:03 PM
I think I diverged a bit off topic but here's another thought.  If there is any purpose in existence, the God we might create this time around might exceed any of our expectations both now and forever.
I don't think there is any purpose in existence.  Purpose is a personal matter.  Your purpose is on you--only you can determine that.  Same for me.  I kind of like Joseph Campbell's take on it--the purpose of life is life.  He goes on to say that to find your purpose, follow your bliss.  Do that which gives you life, that excites you, make you alive, gives you a reason to face the day--that feeds you.  One does not need a god to give one purpose.  All you need is you.  Once you create a god, then you have to conform to that god.  So, why create a god?
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Mike Cl on April 20, 2015, 09:52:31 PM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 09:18:15 PM
Yes, I think we are on the same page up to a point.  But I make a distinction between what I believe and what I might think or speculate on.   We agree down to before the big bang.  The consensus of science is that the big bang did occur.  But it is speculative as to what caused it and I love to entertain the possibilities.  The black hole idea is an excellent one.  So it seems that if that were true universes might come in all different sizes since black holes come in all different sizes.  And then we get into wondering about the boundaries of space and if it exists outside of our universe or could there be universes within our universe and then it gets into string theory which I don't understand and so on.  And as for black holes they such in matter and energy and can even emit energy as well.  I am an old black hole enthuisast.  And as for life I am in awe that it even exists.  It seems so incredibly unnecessary from my tiny point of view.  Which leads me to think this may have happened millions of times before or simultaneously as well (realizing this idea may be flawed since we may also be experiencing it the only time it has happened).  So since life appears so unessential why does it occur and what is happening now as we enter an explosion of knowledge and technology where it appears now possible that we might even create conciousness that is unimaginable???  Why does this appear to be culminating at this point in time?  Seems to sort of detract from existential nihilism from my point of view.  But other than that minor addition we seem in complete agreement.  But what do I know... I am just a biological computer program with very limited data.

So, it seems we do see things in much the same way.  That's good.  Life--what is it and why is it?  I think it is simply a byproduct of all the materials that is present in our universe.  Is it essential.  No.  But so what?  I think it simply happens because of how the material in the universe interacts.  It is impossible to have a universe such as ours and not have life (I surmise).  And who says it all has to be carbon based, such as ours?  In fact, we don't really know what life is; is a virus alive?  It is quite difficult to find a full definition of what life is.  It is all very mysterious.  But it is less mysterious than it was 2,000 years ago.  And god does not make it less mysterious, but adds another layer to the mystery.  One that to me, is much more mysterious than how this universe was formed.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on April 20, 2015, 10:22:16 PM
Alright,  I'm pissed they swiped my  AF short hand of APA and shrinks as far as I'm concerned are a bunch of flakes hell bent on making money selling people on the cure for living..  I've dealt with plenty of shrinks in my life and have yet to meet one who knows didly jack squat about dealing with their own lives much less mine..

There's a word for all this gibberish, HOKUM..
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 10:34:02 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 20, 2015, 09:46:02 PM
I don't think there is any purpose in existence.  Purpose is a personal matter.  Your purpose is on you--only you can determine that.  Same for me.  I kind of like Joseph Campbell's take on it--the purpose of life is life.  He goes on to say that to find your purpose, follow your bliss.  Do that which gives you life, that excites you, make you alive, gives you a reason to face the day--that feeds you.  One does not need a god to give one purpose.  All you need is you.  Once you create a god, then you have to conform to that god.  So, why create a god?

I cannot fathom a purpose other than we want purpose.  Doesn't it appear a bit odd that something would come into existence and seek purpose?  I am so amazed that the laws of our universe allow our existence much less seek a purpose.  And I am even more amazed that this universe allows us to utilize technology to the extent we have.  But I am also aware that since we are in the middle of what is happening our views are likely distorted.  Maybe my program has malfunctioned?
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Mike Cl on April 20, 2015, 10:53:05 PM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 10:34:02 PM
I cannot fathom a purpose other than we want purpose.  Doesn't it appear a bit odd that something would come into existence and seek purpose?  I am so amazed that the laws of our universe allow our existence much less seek a purpose.  And I am even more amazed that this universe allows us to utilize technology to the extent we have.  But I am also aware that since we are in the middle of what is happening our views are likely distorted.  Maybe my program has malfunctioned?
I cannot begin to say that I understand all this.  But I don't think the universe gives a shit one way or the other.  It is totally and completely neutral.  Life is simply a byproduct of the material of the universe.  Does this make me depressed?  Nope.  Purpose is on me.  And I'm fine with that.  Yes, we are in the middle of of our 'life' and it may seem a bit muddled and distorted and difficult to get the big picture.  But maybe we are trying too hard to find some purpose.  I think it is simply that life occurred here and we have life.  We are lucky.  But there is no grand scheme to any of this.  Pure chance--life had to occur somewhere--and here it is.  And here you are.  It is sort of like that raindrop in the huge rainstorm.  Trillions and trillions of raindrops.  What are the chances that that one particular raindrop hit you in the head?  Too great for me to figure out.  Sooooooooooooooo small.  But it is 100% sure you will be hit by a raindrop if you go out into the storm.  You went out and that particular raindrop hit you.  Now it is a 100% sure thing.   Life in our universe is like that.  Our universe is so huge and we are so small that all we can see is that one particular raindrop.  I'm sure there are trillions more out there, but I can't see them. 
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 11:15:45 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 20, 2015, 10:53:05 PM
I cannot begin to say that I understand all this.  But I don't think the universe gives a shit one way or the other.  It is totally and completely neutral.  Life is simply a byproduct of the material of the universe.  Does this make me depressed?  Nope.  Purpose is on me.  And I'm fine with that.  Yes, we are in the middle of of our 'life' and it may seem a bit muddled and distorted and difficult to get the big picture.  But maybe we are trying too hard to find some purpose.  I think it is simply that life occurred here and we have life.  We are lucky.  But there is no grand scheme to any of this.  Pure chance--life had to occur somewhere--and here it is.  And here you are.  It is sort of like that raindrop in the huge rainstorm.  Trillions and trillions of raindrops.  What are the chances that that one particular raindrop hit you in the head?  Too great for me to figure out.  Sooooooooooooooo small.  But it is 100% sure you will be hit by a raindrop if you go out into the storm.  You went out and that particular raindrop hit you.  Now it is a 100% sure thing.   Life in our universe is like that.  Our universe is so huge and we are so small that all we can see is that one particular raindrop.  I'm sure there are trillions more out there, but I can't see them.
Well it seems we are in agreement with many things.  So you are only saying what you believe?  It sounds too much like religion to me.  You have exceeded the boundaries of what I believe.  Remember i made that distinction between speculating and believing.  What I have been talking about are not beliefs.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Fidel_Castronaut on April 21, 2015, 05:01:10 AM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 11:25:44 AM
The realization there is no God is not really very profound.  And identifying as an atheist is not either.

Couldn't agree more. Nothing profound in seeing bullshit as bullshit.

Quote from: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 11:25:44 AMIt is usually a transient view for most of us on the way to believing something else just as ridiculous.

Citation needed. Reads as bollocks, probably because it's bollocks.

Quote from: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 11:25:44 AMSo the real issue is not god but just us.

How can atheists believe there is a problem with something that doesn't exist in the first place? Indeed, what 'issue' are we talking about again? Seems like this sentence wasn't thought through.

Quote from: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 11:25:44 AMAnd atheists often reach their views not because of rational observation but because we are still looking for something to believe in. The reason we are here is so we can still retain some sense of belonging while behaving just like the religious do.

Again, citation needed. I don't see how it follows that an atheist can 'lose' their faith in something because they are still looking for faith in something? That don't make no sense.

Also, you don't address at all the statistically large number of people (like me) who have always been an atheist and never had a religious faith in anything. What of us?

Human beings like being around like minded individuals by default. It was necessary for the past for survival and propagation, and it's necessary now for interaction in an increasingly dynamic and fluid society (or so we think). So is it really so surprising to see atheists talking and interacting with other atheists, especially when you consider that in many areas around the world being an atheist is punishable by death and ostracizing from friends and family?

As per the post below, atheism has nothing to do with anything outside of atheism. Rationalism, skepticism, logical inquiry may go hand in hand with being an atheist in many cases but it's got nothing inherently do with atheism. Atheists may act like the religious, but atheism can't by virtue of it having nothing in common whatsoever with theism of any given stripe.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Fidel_Castronaut on April 21, 2015, 05:06:11 AM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 03:53:10 PM
I am so glad to see this thread is gaining attention.  And I can only assure all of you that I am in no manner a theist of any sort.  I may be a crazy old man but I identify mostly with just being a naturalist. Atheism from my point of view is a prerequisite for being a naturalist.   But not all atheists are naturalists because many still hold supernatural views.  Which clearly indicates that atheism may not be as rational as we like to think. 

Wanted to pick up on this point in addition. What does atheism have to do with the supernatural again?

Atheism = lack of belief in a god or gods ( as a minimum. +ve rejections can go hand in hand). Atheism =/= 'rational', just that you do not have an active belief in a deity. You're right, atheists can believe in all manner of nonsense, and probably do. But what does that have to do with anything? Think you may have meant 'atheists', not atheism.

Quote from: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 11:25:44 AM...So which one are we in?  The one with the God or the one without the god?

Bracketing out everything aside, until there is evidence to demonstrate that there is such, there is no reason to believe that there is aside the personal belief that you want to it to be true.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Mike Cl on April 21, 2015, 09:06:36 AM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 11:15:45 PM
Well it seems we are in agreement with many things.  So you are only saying what you believe?  It sounds too much like religion to me.  You have exceeded the boundaries of what I believe.  Remember i made that distinction between speculating and believing.  What I have been talking about are not beliefs.
It does seem that we are in agreement in many areas.  And I think if we were to have a face-to-face, we'd be in more agreement.  What you term 'belief' I term hypothesis.  It is based in some fact or another.  I will freely admit that my knowledge of physics and cosmology is limited.  Because of that ignorance, my hypothesis are fully recognized as such by myself as not yet proven.  But there is no 'belief' in the unseen or the unnatural or supernatural going on here.  Science is filled with the unknown, but it is not unknowable, only unknown at this point.  The unknown drives science--curiosity drives the great thinkers of this world.  And so, the unknown is only temporary--there is an answer.  And hypothesis is the way to formulate that curiosity, a way to shape what to look closely at next.
I don't term that religion.  Religion connotes to me the worship of something supernatural, something to beseech for help, something outside of nature.  Nothing deserves to be worshiped; well, maybe baseball and ice cream.  Religion in and of itself is not all that destructive to the rest of us--organized religion is deadly to the rest of us. 

So, I'm sure my hypotheses has exceeded what you believe.  You probably have more physics and cosmology facts at your fingertips--I think you know more.  But as more facts penetrate my skull, my hypotheses can and do change.  My thoughts are not anchored in 'belief' and 'faith', but in theories.  So, my believing something can change; my hypotheses change.  My curiosity forces me to build bridges between what is and what should or could be.  So, my hypotheses can and do change.   
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on April 21, 2015, 11:26:08 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 21, 2015, 09:06:36 AM
It does seem that we are in agreement in many areas.  And I think if we were to have a face-to-face, we'd be in more agreement.  What you term 'belief' I term hypothesis.  It is based in some fact or another.  I will freely admit that my knowledge of physics and cosmology is limited.  Because of that ignorance, my hypothesis are fully recognized as such by myself as not yet proven.  But there is no 'belief' in the unseen or the unnatural or supernatural going on here.  Science is filled with the unknown, but it is not unknowable, only unknown at this point.  The unknown drives science--curiosity drives the great thinkers of this world.  And so, the unknown is only temporary--there is an answer.  And hypothesis is the way to formulate that curiosity, a way to shape what to look closely at next.
I don't term that religion.  Religion connotes to me the worship of something supernatural, something to beseech for help, something outside of nature.  Nothing deserves to be worshiped; well, maybe baseball and ice cream.  Religion in and of itself is not all that destructive to the rest of us--organized religion is deadly to the rest of us. 

So, I'm sure my hypotheses has exceeded what you believe.  You probably have more physics and cosmology facts at your fingertips--I think you know more.  But as more facts penetrate my skull, my hypotheses can and do change.  My thoughts are not anchored in 'belief' and 'faith', but in theories.  So, my believing something can change; my hypotheses change.  My curiosity forces me to build bridges between what is and what should or could be.  So, my hypotheses can and do change.   

That was very well put.  Yes, I am just drawing the line of what I believe a bit earlier and when it stops being concrete.  When I continue into hypothesizing I consider that to be more speculative .  So now you are much more than just an atheist.  But since i dont care much for the confines of labels, i will let you decide what you are.   :-)
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Mike Cl on April 21, 2015, 11:38:54 AM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 21, 2015, 11:26:08 AM
That was very well put.  Yes, I am just drawing the line of what I believe a bit earlier and when it stops being concrete.  When I continue into hypothesizing I consider that to be more speculative .  So now you are much more than just an atheist.  But since i dont care much for the confines of labels, i will let you decide what you are.   :-)
Well, thank you.  I don't think you really 'believe' in the way I understand and use the word.  I think you also form hypotheses.  And hypotheses are by their nature, speculative.  As for being more than an atheist--well, that is a very narrow word.  It only says that I don't believe in god or gods or the supernatural.  It does not say what I think of the universe.  It does not explain how I approach the universe nor how I live my life.  In that sense, all who post here and claim to be atheist are much more than that.  Which it is often said here, that trying to put all atheists under one umbrella, is like herding cats.  Try it some time--all you'll get is snarled at, bitten and scratched---and ignored.

So, I guess I could term myself a naturalist as well.  Which only means to me is that I see the universe as natural and that there is nothing beyond nature.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: antediluvian on April 21, 2015, 01:43:06 PM
"behavior"  Seriously?
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: drunkenshoe on April 21, 2015, 01:45:44 PM
Atheism is not a human behaviour.

Quote from: antediluvian on April 21, 2015, 01:43:06 PM
"behavior"  Seriously?

I just wrote the same thing and forum said 'you may want to take a look, somebody has just posted', lol.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on April 21, 2015, 03:00:53 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 21, 2015, 11:38:54 AM
Well, thank you.  I don't think you really 'believe' in the way I understand and use the word.  I think you also form hypotheses.  And hypotheses are by their nature, speculative.  As for being more than an atheist--well, that is a very narrow word.  It only says that I don't believe in god or gods or the supernatural.  It does not say what I think of the universe.  It does not explain how I approach the universe nor how I live my life.  In that sense, all who post here and claim to be atheist are much more than that.  Which it is often said here, that trying to put all atheists under one umbrella, is like herding cats.  Try it some time--all you'll get is snarled at, bitten and scratched---and ignored.

So, I guess I could term myself a naturalist as well.  Which only means to me is that I see the universe as natural and that there is nothing beyond nature.


Mike, I am enjoying our little conversation.   Would you like to continue?  I will take that as a yes.  So if I understand correctly, you believe or hypothesize that the universe is entirely random and likely infinite and therefore without purpose.  You may not agree with that entirely but for the sake of discussion let's assume that is the truth.  So let's start at the big bang.  We then assume that the big bang was a purely random occurrence.  So in order for our universe to coagulate into what followed there had to be at least one law, we call it the law of gravity.  Were it not for the law of gravity, the universe may have continued in a pure state of energy or until some other law came into effect.  But since these laws had to have all came into effect randomly as well that would also imply that there would have been an infinite number of laws that could have came into effect.  So let's pause and see if we agree on that.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Solitary on April 21, 2015, 03:26:20 PM
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on April 20, 2015, 10:22:16 PM
Alright,  I'm pissed they swiped my  AF short hand of APA and shrinks as far as I'm concerned are a bunch of flakes hell bent on making money selling people on the cure for living..  I've dealt with plenty of shrinks in my life and have yet to meet one who knows didly jack squat about dealing with their own lives much less mine..

There's a word for all this gibberish, HOKUM..
I'm with you on this from my experience with them. Solitary
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Solitary on April 21, 2015, 03:41:40 PM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 21, 2015, 03:00:53 PM

Mike, I am enjoying our little conversation.   Would you like to continue?  I will take that as a yes.  So if I understand correctly, you believe or hypothesize that the universe is entirely random and likely infinite and therefore without purpose.  You may not agree with that entirely but for the sake of discussion let's assume that is the truth.  So let's start at the big bang.  We then assume that the big bang was a purely random occurrence.  So in order for our universe to coagulate into what followed there had to be at least one law, we call it the law of gravity.  Were it not for the law of gravity, the universe may have continued in a pure state of energy or until some other law came into effect.  But since these laws had to have all came into effect randomly as well that would also imply that there would have been an infinite number of laws that could have came into effect.  So let's pause and see if we agree on that.

You are using slick maneuvers and hypotheticals, and the assumption the universe was created like so many cosmologist do. Stephen Hawking has already said the universe just is, with no beginning or end, and nobody is listening. And Penrose has gone off the deep end with his nonsense sounding like Deepak Chopra on acid. I'm done posting at the drivel I see here and hypothetical Bull shit to show the possibility of a God by using science to back it up. Astronomers have looked into the deepest parts of space we can see, and there is no evidence of a supernatural world, but overwhelming evidence that the laws of physics are the same everywhere, even in the quantum would that is composed of particles proving the world is a material world. Even energy and space is composed of particles, just like space time is and electromagnetic fields are. Solitary
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Munch on April 21, 2015, 04:01:23 PM
So atheism is considered 'abnormal behavior' huh?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2hf4GLAMzg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW2eTE8b1tE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4zg_uaizts

Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Fidel_Castronaut on April 21, 2015, 04:26:30 PM
As almost everyone else has posited, atheism is not a behaviour, and neither can it be defined as 'ir/rational' - it's the null.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Mike Cl on April 21, 2015, 04:37:40 PM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 21, 2015, 03:00:53 PM

Mike, I am enjoying our little conversation.   Would you like to continue?  I will take that as a yes.  So if I understand correctly, you believe or hypothesize that the universe is entirely random and likely infinite and therefore without purpose.  You may not agree with that entirely but for the sake of discussion let's assume that is the truth.  So let's start at the big bang.  We then assume that the big bang was a purely random occurrence.  So in order for our universe to coagulate into what followed there had to be at least one law, we call it the law of gravity.  Were it not for the law of gravity, the universe may have continued in a pure state of energy or until some other law came into effect.  But since these laws had to have all came into effect randomly as well that would also imply that there would have been an infinite number of laws that could have came into effect.  So let's pause and see if we agree on that.
Sure, let's continue.  It was random in that the when and the where were not pinpointed.  It could have happened anywhere or anywhen.  But the content was not random, and that includes the physical laws.  What the universe would look like is random;  what it contained then is the same as it is now.  It is a closed system and self contained.  Apparently it is still unpacking and moving away from the center.  I hope I did not imply that there is an infinite number of laws; that would imply that some were being created as we age.  No, the physical laws came with the physical universe; and that is all there is, physical laws and physical material.  It's sort of like the buildup of a thunderstorm.  All the elements are there for one, it's just not possible to determine precisely where or when; it's happening is random--but it will happen.  So, no, not an infinite number of physical laws, and not a random effect of those laws.  They operate as they should all the time and don't deviate from how they act.  The material of the universe acts and performs as the physical laws allow; and neither the physical material or the physical laws care one way or the other how you like it or how you react.  They are the same.  So, it seems we do not agree on this last bit.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Brian37 on April 21, 2015, 05:20:06 PM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 11:25:44 AM
The realization there is no God is not really very profound.  And identifying as an atheist is not either.  It is usually a transient view for most of us on the way to believing something else just as ridiculous.  So the real issue is not god but just us.  And atheists often reach their views not because of rational observation but because we are still looking for something to believe in. The reason we are here is so we can still retain some sense of belonging while behaving just like the religious do.

"Researchers who study the psychology and neuroscience of religion are helping to explain why such beliefs are so enduring. They’re finding that religion may, in fact, be a byproduct of the way our brains work, growing from cognitive tendencies to seek order from chaos, to anthropomorphize our environment and to believe the world around us was created for our use."

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2010/12/believe.aspx

Um no, atheism is NOT abnormal, theism is a result of our flawed perceptions. Humans evolved to seek patterns, the problem in that is we guess at what we observe far more than we test and falsify what we observe and end up gap filling.

The neurology behind that is that when we think of warm fuzzy things, or fear boogiemen, those false beliefs can have a real electrochemical reaction in our brains. Our species lack of understanding of what they are really perceiving is why god claims and religions exist. The placebo effect can cause humans to group and create safety in numbers which gives that group more opportunity at resources and attempts at offspring.

Dawkins "The God Delusion" explains this as "the moth mistaking the light bulb for moonlight". And Victor Stenger's book "The New Atheism" explains why you cannot split the baby and say religion is merely a separate but equal way of measuring nature like science. He also goes into detail in the later chapters as to why our morality is evolutionary and not label based.

The belief is "enduring" because it is easier to market a fantasy which makes people feel good, than it is to actually have a claim tested and falsified and peer reviewed.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on April 21, 2015, 07:35:23 PM
Quote from: Brian37 on April 21, 2015, 05:20:06 PM
Um no, atheism is NOT abnormal, theism is a result of our flawed perceptions. Humans evolved to seek patterns, the problem in that is we guess at what we observe far more than we test and falsify what we observe and end up gap filling.

The neurology behind that is that when we think of warm fuzzy things, or fear boogiemen, those false beliefs can have a real electrochemical reaction in our brains. Our species lack of understanding of what they are really perceiving is why god claims and religions exist. The placebo effect can cause humans to group and create safety in numbers which gives that group more opportunity at resources and attempts at offspring.

Dawkins "The God Delusion" explains this as "the moth mistaking the light bulb for moonlight". And Victor Stenger's book "The New Atheism" explains why you cannot split the baby and say religion is merely a separate but equal way of measuring nature like science. He also goes into detail in the later chapters as to why our morality is evolutionary and not label based.

The belief is "enduring" because it is easier to market a fantasy which makes people feel good, than it is to actually have a claim tested and falsified and peer reviewed.

I only realized just now that you and others think I am actually pro-religion.  This is so absurd it is hilarious.  I am going to have to think on this once I stop laughing.  I have been pro-athiest as long as Dawkins!!!
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Mike Cl on April 21, 2015, 09:13:25 PM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 21, 2015, 07:35:23 PM
I only realized just now that you and others think I am actually pro-religion.  This is so absurd it is hilarious.  I am going to have to think on this once I stop laughing.  I have been pro-athiest as long as Dawkins!!!
Giveme, I have part of me that does wonder if you are atheist or theist.  How can that be, you ask???  I'll try to explain.  Look at your first post in this thread : "The realization there is no God is not really very profound.  And identifying as an atheist is not either.  It is usually a transient view for most of us on the way to believing something else just as ridiculous.  So the real issue is not god but just us.  And atheists often reach their views not because of rational observation but because we are still looking for something to believe in. The reason we are here is so we can still retain some sense of belonging while behaving just like the religious do."  Let's take this apart.

You suggest: The realization there is no God is not really very profound.  And identifying as an atheist is not either.
Me--I'm not sure what you mean.  Considering the history of religion on this world, it is, indeed, a profound thought; it goes against the grain of all organized religions.  And identifying as an atheist may not seem profound to you, but to me it does.  It can be life changing and life ending to id youself atheist.  But, I'd admit, I'm not sure what you meant by 'profound".

You go on:  It is usually a transient view for most of us on the way to believing something else just as ridiculous. 
Me:  This is very puzzling.  First, why do you view atheism as 'ridiculous'?  I don't.  For me it is the only view that makes sense.  Why do you think atheism is 'transient'?  For me, the search for god occured in the middle of my atheist leanings.  So, theism was clearly transient.  Atheism was the end.

You say: So the real issue is not god but just us. 
Me:  Since god is not real, it cannot be an 'issue'.  Of course it is about us--what else could it be about?????  This smacks of theism in the extreme. 

You say: And atheists often reach their views not because of rational observation but because we are still looking for something to believe in.
Me--How many atheists have you talked to?  Read?  I reached my views from a rational point of view, not a view that incorporated faith or belief.  I'm not an atheist because I am missing something in my life and use atheism as another set of beliefs.  That isn't even possible.  If you have a set of beliefs, then you are not an atheist.  It seems as though you are saying that it impossible to be fulfilled in your life if you are an atheist.  You have to continue searching for something else or some purpose.  Is that what you are saying?  If not, please enlighten me.

You say: The reason we are here is so we can still retain some sense of belonging while behaving just like the religious do.
Me:  Wow!  ????  what do you mean by "here'--this world or this board?  And atheists can't have a sense of belonging, as though only religion allows one to develop this feeling?????  Behaving?  How do atheists behave?  Is there some mold atheists are stamped out of?   And how do the religious behave?  What are the 'samenesses' you allude to????

this entire paragraph could easily have been written by a theist.  And one who is not all that familiar with atheistic thought.  I find it rather off-putting, to say the least.  I could be wrong, of course.
But would you care to reply and clarify that entire paragraph???  And this is why many, I'd guess, on this board think you could be a 'wolf in sheep's clothing', so to speak. 

Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on April 22, 2015, 01:40:24 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 21, 2015, 09:13:25 PM
Giveme, I have part of me that does wonder if you are atheist or theist.  How can that be, you ask???  I'll try to explain.  Look at your first post in this thread : "The realization there is no God is not really very profound.  And identifying as an atheist is not either.  It is usually a transient view for most of us on the way to believing something else just as ridiculous.  So the real issue is not god but just us.  And atheists often reach their views not because of rational observation but because we are still looking for something to believe in. The reason we are here is so we can still retain some sense of belonging while behaving just like the religious do."  Let's take this apart.

You suggest: The realization there is no God is not really very profound.  And identifying as an atheist is not either.
Me--I'm not sure what you mean.  Considering the history of religion on this world, it is, indeed, a profound thought; it goes against the grain of all organized religions.  And identifying as an atheist may not seem profound to you, but to me it does.  It can be life changing and life ending to id youself atheist.  But, I'd admit, I'm not sure what you meant by 'profound".

You go on:  It is usually a transient view for most of us on the way to believing something else just as ridiculous. 
Me:  This is very puzzling.  First, why do you view atheism as 'ridiculous'?  I don't.  For me it is the only view that makes sense.  Why do you think atheism is 'transient'?  For me, the search for god occured in the middle of my atheist leanings.  So, theism was clearly transient.  Atheism was the end.

You say: So the real issue is not god but just us. 
Me:  Since god is not real, it cannot be an 'issue'.  Of course it is about us--what else could it be about?????  This smacks of theism in the extreme. 

You say: And atheists often reach their views not because of rational observation but because we are still looking for something to believe in.
Me--How many atheists have you talked to?  Read?  I reached my views from a rational point of view, not a view that incorporated faith or belief.  I'm not an atheist because I am missing something in my life and use atheism as another set of beliefs.  That isn't even possible.  If you have a set of beliefs, then you are not an atheist.  It seems as though you are saying that it impossible to be fulfilled in your life if you are an atheist.  You have to continue searching for something else or some purpose.  Is that what you are saying?  If not, please enlighten me.

You say: The reason we are here is so we can still retain some sense of belonging while behaving just like the religious do.
Me:  Wow!  ????  what do you mean by "here'--this world or this board?  And atheists can't have a sense of belonging, as though only religion allows one to develop this feeling?????  Behaving?  How do atheists behave?  Is there some mold atheists are stamped out of?   And how do the religious behave?  What are the 'samenesses' you allude to????

this entire paragraph could easily have been written by a theist.  And one who is not all that familiar with atheistic thought.  I find it rather off-putting, to say the least.  I could be wrong, of course.
But would you care to reply and clarify that entire paragraph???  And this is why many, I'd guess, on this board think you could be a 'wolf in sheep's clothing', so to speak.

I am so obtuse!!!  I am just so unaccustomed to talking about these things with people that don't know me.  And I can now see how anyone might think that.  There should be some kind of profile here so people don't have to guess about each other.  The realization there is no God is not profound because it is obvious.  I have always thought that.  I remember being laughed at on a school bus long ago when I stated I did not believe the bible.  So professing to be athiest is nothing special either rom my point of view.  I see also now that I am being arrogant from that point of view.  It is often a transient point of view for those who leave religion simply because it is not fulfilling.   And since many of those still have supernatural or spiritual views they migrate right back another religion.  And nearly anyone who claims to be searching for the truth is nearly always just looking for something they can comfortably believe in.  "They can't handle the truth!!"  And then once we find a small truth from transitioning over to atheism we start congregating and proclaiming and proselytizing it just like the religious do.  So in essence it even starts looking like another religion.  We cannot escape human behavior.  I just can't believe I was so obtuse not to see that earlier.  Now I see why I was getting strange responses to my posts.  And as for all my posts I was only trying to stir up some mental stimulation.  I am not the sort who sits around in smug complacency laughing at all the irony in the world.  Sometimes I like to jump in and make a complete fool of myself as I have surely now done.  But I am no religious troll or any such nonsense.  I am just another human being still trying to understand all that is.  On that note I am ending my day.  Enough!
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Mike Cl on April 22, 2015, 08:56:38 AM
Thank you for your reply.  Well, you got your wish--you did stir the pot, so to speak. :)  BTW, I don't care if you are theist or atheist, I'll talk to anybody if they will reply.  Maybe you could start another post and explain who and what you are in a little more detail?  This is a forum where we only have words to communicate with.  So, words are important.  I have to watch carefully how I word certain of my thoughts so that I don't give the wrong impression.  For example, your use of the word 'profound' was used in a personal way--it made sense to you, but maybe not to most of us here.  I was fortunate in that my parents did not push theism on me, but allowed me to explore that world on my own and in my time.  So, my first exposure to god was through the lens of the southern baptist and assembly of god churches.  So, along my journey, the realization that there is no god was profound.  So, I was reading 'profound' through that lens.  Anyway, I'd encourage your starting another post.

And to continue where we left off in our conversation on this thread.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on April 22, 2015, 06:12:25 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 22, 2015, 08:56:38 AM
Thank you for your reply.  Well, you got your wish--you did stir the pot, so to speak. :)  BTW, I don't care if you are theist or atheist, I'll talk to anybody if they will reply.  Maybe you could start another post and explain who and what you are in a little more detail?  This is a forum where we only have words to communicate with.  So, words are important.  I have to watch carefully how I word certain of my thoughts so that I don't give the wrong impression.  For example, your use of the word 'profound' was used in a personal way--it made sense to you, but maybe not to most of us here.  I was fortunate in that my parents did not push theism on me, but allowed me to explore that world on my own and in my time.  So, my first exposure to god was through the lens of the southern baptist and assembly of god churches.  So, along my journey, the realization that there is no god was profound.  So, I was reading 'profound' through that lens.  Anyway, I'd encourage your starting another post.

And to continue where we left off in our conversation on this thread.

Explaining myself in a new post would detract from the post but I certainly will need to make my viewpoints more clear.  However I will say a bit more about myself right here.  I grew up on a farm in a more isolated environment.  However since my parents were not well educated nor heavily involved in church, they made no attempt to indoctrinate me either.  So my development formed me into a more independent thinker.  And that is how I have always been.  I would sum up my other than the more mundane things as having been a quest for understanding.  I became deeply interested in Science at an early age and though I did attend college pursuing related things I am by no means a scientist.  But I do look at things from a rather detached scientific viewpoint much of the time.  I am still gaining understanding and I have an insatiable curiosity that feeds it.  I am here for mental stimulation and I love to assimilate ideas of interest to see how they might affect or alter my own.  I have certain ideas I may want to express here also but I will certainly need to do a better job of explaining.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on April 22, 2015, 06:19:26 PM
Oh!  And I am a true liberal... not the stereotyped political one.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Mike Cl on April 22, 2015, 06:36:29 PM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 22, 2015, 06:19:26 PM
Oh!  And I am a true liberal... not the stereotyped political one.
Okay, I'll bite.  What is a true liberal as opposed to the 'other' kind?
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: stromboli on April 22, 2015, 06:47:34 PM
How the fuck is making a rational choice based on evidence abnormal behavior? You are presupposing that believing in a god is therefore natural, which it isn't. You are confusing spirituality with religion, two different things. It is no more abnormal than choosing between reruns of I Love Lucy and Game of Thrones. This whole thread is idiotic.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Deidre32 on April 22, 2015, 07:16:40 PM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 11:25:44 AM
The realization there is no God is not really very profound.  And identifying as an atheist is not either.  It is usually a transient view for most of us on the way to believing something else just as ridiculous.  So the real issue is not god but just us.  And atheists often reach their views not because of rational observation but because we are still looking for something to believe in. The reason we are here is so we can still retain some sense of belonging while behaving just like the religious do.

"Researchers who study the psychology and neuroscience of religion are helping to explain why such beliefs are so enduring. They’re finding that religion may, in fact, be a byproduct of the way our brains work, growing from cognitive tendencies to seek order from chaos, to anthropomorphize our environment and to believe the world around us was created for our use."

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2010/12/believe.aspx

Not really. Atheism isn't a learned ''behavior'' as you refer to it. But, religious ''life'' is.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on April 23, 2015, 12:26:24 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 22, 2015, 06:36:29 PM
Okay, I'll bite.  What is a true liberal as opposed to the 'other' kind?
Simply broad and open minded.  Willing to consider just about anything as long as it is not boring or ridiculous.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Mike Cl on April 23, 2015, 09:47:44 AM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 23, 2015, 12:26:24 AM
  Simply broad and open minded.  Willing to consider just about anything as long as it is not boring or ridiculous.
Once again you fail to define a term you use.  You suggest that there are at least 2 kinds of liberals, true and other.  What would make one a true liberal as opposed to the other kind???

Here is a brief history of the term:
The Liberales first exist as a political party in Spain in 1810, when the French occupation prompts the gathering of an independent Cortes in Cadiz. The delegates split into two groups which become known as the Liberales (in favour of reform) and the Serviles (who wish to continue the Spanish tradition of absolute monarchy).

The Liberales win the day and write the constitution of 1812, providing for a monarch responsible to an elected parliament, together with freedom of the press and other such radical measures. These delegates include members from Latin America, where the independence movements are already under way. So there enters also an implied link with 'liberation'.

The word 'conservative' soon follows, being used after the restoration of the monarchy in France for those in favour of the reactionary backlash which now aims to mend all the damage perceived to have been done by French revolutionary principles.

Both sides are within traditions much older than the immediate circumstances which bring the words into being. The liberal emphasis on reason, education, secular values and personal liberty is in the 18th-century spirit of the Enlightenment. The conservative love of tradition, established order and ritual has its roots far further back in the Christian culture of the Middle Ages.

Underlying the intellectual differences of opinion, there is also a more immediate and divisive political agenda. The liberals, wanting change, are on the side of those who will benefit from a redistribution of wealth. The conservatives, however high their ancient ideals, frequently have something of their own to conserve.

Read more: http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=250#ixzz3Y8etNyyL

I see the current set of Rep. conservatives as going back to the concept of The Divine Right of Kings, which says that the kings/queens of the world are such because it is the will of god and they don't have to answer to any earthly laws.  The republicans want to establish a christian nation using ideas related to that concept--that god's laws are the real laws and that a theocracy is the best way to conserve what is good in this world.  Liberals are opposed to that idea.   
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Fidel_Castronaut on April 23, 2015, 11:55:35 AM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 23, 2015, 12:26:24 AM
  Simply broad and open minded.  Willing to consider just about anything as long as it is not boring or ridiculous.

That don't make no sense. that's not any definition of 'liberal' I've ever heard.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on April 23, 2015, 04:53:19 PM
Quote from: stromboli on April 22, 2015, 06:47:34 PM
How the fuck is making a rational choice based on evidence abnormal behavior? You are presupposing that believing in a god is therefore natural, which it isn't. You are confusing spirituality with religion, two different things. It is no more abnormal than choosing between reruns of I Love Lucy and Game of Thrones. This whole thread is idiotic.

Let me clarify my original post and hopefully that will help.

I am atheist.
Atheism is good.
Religion is normal human behavior.
Atheism denies normal human behavior.
Atheism is abnormal.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on April 23, 2015, 04:55:50 PM
Quote from: Fidel_Castronaut on April 23, 2015, 11:55:35 AM
That don't make no sense. that's not any definition of 'liberal' I've ever heard.

I bet there are many things you have not heard.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: aitm on April 23, 2015, 05:15:05 PM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 23, 2015, 04:53:19 PM
Religion is normal human behavior.
if by being brain-washed as a child into believing incredible fanciful absolute bullshit as truth is normal,, if by threatening to kill a person if they do not convert to ones particular superstitious drivel is normal,, then by all means…carry on.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on April 23, 2015, 05:56:15 PM
Quote from: aitm on April 23, 2015, 05:15:05 PM
if by being brain-washed as a child into believing incredible fanciful absolute bullshit as truth is normal,, if by threatening to kill a person if they do not convert to ones particular superstitious drivel is normal,, then by all means…carry on.

You are absolutely right!  Aren't you glad you are not normal?
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Fidel_Castronaut on April 24, 2015, 05:59:30 AM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 23, 2015, 04:55:50 PM
I bet there are many things you have not heard.

Oh fo'sure.

However, as a PhD student in political science and previous lecturer in national and international political systems including, naturally, neo-liberal and realist discourse in international relations and socio-economic political development, I can safely say that your description is self-serving codswallop.

Consider by your definition one would not be a liberal if they found a given subject 'boring'. I mean come along. Surely you see this as nonsensical?
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Feral Atheist on April 24, 2015, 11:07:20 AM
The greatest waste of time is arguing with people that believe in fairy tales.  There is no rational base there.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: 1liesalot on April 24, 2015, 04:34:56 PM
Abnormal?  So is this

http://www.fadmag.com/nufad/brainright/wot/wotipka2.html

THE APOCALYPSE

Apocalyptic expectations

In 1260, during the Black Death, ordinary people left their homes and everyday lives to become Flagellants. These masochistic folk took to the roads of Europe, whipping and lashing themselves in the militant and bloodthirsty pursuit of the millennium.

Protestants went a little nutty in search of the Millennia during a time of persecution under the hands of the French Catholic King Louis XIV when he revoked the Edict of Nantes in 1685. Little children were trained to become seers, going from town to town announcing the reign of the Antichrist and the imminent Second Coming of the Lord.
triumph of art - The Renaissance was a new millennia in its own right, when human self-perception went from groveling sinner to near Angelic free-thinking individuals who could determine and change their world through the arts and sciences. Paganism wed Christianity.

MILLENNIALISM IN AMERICA


THE MILLERITES

insanity clause - In 1843 at the opening of the Utica State Lunatic Asylum for the Insane, "religious anxiety" was listed as the number one cause of insanity. In the book The Disappointed: Millerism and Millenarianism in the Nineteeth Century, Jonathan B. Butler and Ronald Numbers describe two types of insane Millerites: Those believers "so full of ecstasy" that some refused even to eat or drink, and the unconverted who feared that Miller's prophecy might be correct, "who have distracted their minds by puzzling over it, thinking about it, and dreading its approach, who have sunk into deep and hapless melancholy" Graphic sermons by Millerite evangelists caused intense anxiety in their adherents regarding their chances for survival. "They listened to the description of the orthodox hell until it seemed to curdle the very blood in their veins, and burned an impression upon the tablets of their memory. They became lost in imagination, and they saw only the wreathing flames of the fabulous hell, and heard only the shrieking of the doomed."

MILLENNIALISM IN AMERICA TODAY

serpentine twist - There are snake handling cults in the rural south who base their version of Christianity on the Bible passage about the End that states, "And these signs that follow them that believe: In my name they shall... take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them... (Mark 16:17-18). When the typical Kentucky snake handler cult member holds a poisonous rattlesnake in his hands, he is not only defying death and playing God, he is hastening in the millennium.

RUSSIAN APOCALYPTIC THINKING
bourgeois bashing - The Russian Revolution of 1917 is a classic example of apocalyptic ideas expressing themselves in anti-religious ways. Instead of hating the devil, one hates the bourgeois, instead of adoring the savior, one adored the leader in the form of Lenin. This worshipping of a secular leader as the savior is most evident in Lenin's waxed face and embalmed corpse on display in Moscow, that has become a pilgrimage cite.

the offensive organ - The Skoptsy are a self-mutilating sect of believers in the Russian Orthodox church who best illustrate Russian apocalyptic extremism. The Skoptsy, meaning "Eunuches" took a passage of the Bible very seriously that said "And there are eunuches, who have made themselves eunuches for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 19:12)." The Skoptsy castrated themselves because they believed that sex was the cause of human bondage, and the key to hastening the coming of the Kingdom of God was to remove the offending organ.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on April 24, 2015, 06:44:39 PM
Quote from: Fidel_Castronaut on April 24, 2015, 05:59:30 AM
Oh fo'sure.

However, as a PhD student in political science and previous lecturer in national and international political systems including, naturally, neo-liberal and realist discourse in international relations and socio-economic political development, I can safely say that your description is self-serving codswallop.

Consider by your definition one would not be a liberal if they found a given subject 'boring'. I mean come along. Surely you see this as nonsensical?

That's a pretty impressive resume you have there.  It appears your political background has made you very skillful at twisting meanings around as well.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on April 24, 2015, 06:52:54 PM
Quote from: Feral Atheist on April 24, 2015, 11:07:20 AM
The greatest waste of time is arguing with people that believe in fairy tales.  There is no rational base there.

Hmmm...
Believing in fairy tales is normal.
Atheism is clearly not normal.
I am Atheist.
I am not normal.
Who are you not arguing with?
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Fidel_Castronaut on April 24, 2015, 07:02:28 PM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 24, 2015, 06:44:39 PM
That's a pretty impressive resume you have there.  It appears your political background has made you very skillful at twisting meanings around as well.

It's not impressive, it's just what it is.

What word or meaning have I twisted? Cite it, using the post and comtext. The only bullshit on this thread appears to be what you're deficating out, love. Tell me, do you agree that defining a 'true' liberal is nonsensical when you use the arbitrary test of '"not finding things boring" as a qualifier?

This sounds like lunacy, most likely because it is.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Odoital778412 on May 17, 2015, 06:59:24 AM
I think Atheism was less common in the past simply because there weren't as many contrivances and rationalizations developed and adopted by mankind to make a more comfortable atheism possible.  Most human beings recognize their environment and life itself as an effect of a much greater cause intuitively.  Unless you're enabled to reject your built-in intuitions, things like atheism are very hard to affirm.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Hydra009 on May 17, 2015, 10:32:25 AM
Quote from: Odoital778412 on May 17, 2015, 06:59:24 AMI think Atheism was less common in the past simply because there weren't as many contrivances and rationalizations developed and adopted by mankind to make a more comfortable atheism possible.
I dunno about contrivances and rationalizations.  In the ancient past, very few people in one's community knew much of anything about the natural world, and most of what was known was shrouded in myth.  You didn't come into much contact with other cultures, so you're unlikely to know much of other religions.  And openly rejecting the tribe's myths was pretty much a death sentence.  So yeah, not a favorable environment for religious skepticism.

QuoteMost human beings recognize their environment and life itself as an effect of a much greater cause intuitively.
Well, yeah.  Obviously, our world is part of a larger cosmological picture.  But the $64,000 question is whether or not that root cause is some sort of divine entity.  I'm decidedly skeptical on that.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Mike Cl on May 17, 2015, 10:54:56 AM
Quote from: Odoital778412 on May 17, 2015, 06:59:24 AM
I think Atheism was less common in the past simply because there weren't as many contrivances and rationalizations developed and adopted by mankind to make a more comfortable atheism possible.  Most human beings recognize their environment and life itself as an effect of a much greater cause intuitively.  Unless you're enabled to reject your built-in intuitions, things like atheism are very hard to affirm.
What are 'contrivances and rationalizations'???  I'm not an atheist because it is more 'comfortable'--actually it is a little less comfortable than claiming theism of some sort.  I do recognize my environment--and myself--as the result of a greater cause.  That 'cause' however is not divine in any way, shape or form.  Atheism is simply the rejection of a belief in any god.  That is not hard, in the least, to affirm.  You can believe in fairy tales if you wish--I chose not to.  Pretty easy. 
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: aitm on May 17, 2015, 11:14:46 AM
Quote from: Odoital778412 on May 17, 2015, 06:59:24 AM
I think Atheism was less common in the past

Indeed originally there was no belief at all. Religion was invented by man. How that developed is pretty easy to see in the history of humanity.

Quotesimply because there weren't as many contrivances and rationalizations developed and adopted by mankind to make a more comfortable atheism

What? Really, what does that even mean? Contrivances and rationalizations is what humanity adapted in order for religion to flourish, not the other way around. Have you even studied the history of religions?

QuoteMost human beings recognize their environment and life itself as an effect of a much greater cause intuitively.

No, most humans hope that life has a greater purpose that what reality shows them. We call it wishful thinking, or to some irrational beliefs

QuoteUnless you're enabled to reject your built-in intuitions, things like atheism are very hard to affirm.

Enabled? By enabled do you mean afforded an education beyond the 4th grade?
Built in intuitions? What horse crap is that?
Atheism doesn't need affirmation, it is the default case. Do you not notice the millions of churches and the like that are built to help keep the affirmation of religion indoctrination? Now, look around……...see any ones for atheists?
Man…talk about a whack-a-doodle sentence
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: stromboli on May 17, 2015, 11:23:12 AM
The ancient Greeks were devoid of anything that we have technologically, yet many scholars of that time were atheist or nonreligious. Religion is taught, it is not a default, as aitm pointed out. Religion is a specific set of beliefs that have to be taught. A-theism is simply the lack thereof, nothing more. You don't have to be taught not to believe. We don't have atheist seminaries, last time I checked.

The bible says the natural man is the enemy of god- you have to be taught belief. If we lived in a world without religion there would be no need to teach a belief because atheism isn't a belief by itself. Science is not a belief, it is a system of acquiring information. Religion is a belief. There may be other beliefs inside the fabric of a non religious society, but they are hopefully not based on a false idea to begin with.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: SkyChief on May 17, 2015, 12:00:27 PM
Quote from: stromboli on May 17, 2015, 11:23:12 AM
Religion is taught, it is not a default, as aitm pointed out. Religion is a specific set of beliefs that have to be taught. A-theism is simply the lack thereof, nothing more.

Exactly. 

Everyone is born atheist.

It often takes years of indoctrination, coercion, corruption and delusion to ruin a perfectly good atheist.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: stromboli on May 17, 2015, 12:20:24 PM
Quote from: SkyChief on May 17, 2015, 12:00:27 PM
Exactly. 

Everyone is born atheist.

It often takes years of indoctrination, coercion, corruption and delusion to ruin a perfectly good atheist.

Right. its that "A" in a-theist. throws em' every time.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: trdsf on May 17, 2015, 01:00:06 PM
Quote from: SkyChief on May 17, 2015, 12:00:27 PM
Exactly. 

Everyone is born atheist.

It often takes years of indoctrination, coercion, corruption and delusion to ruin a perfectly good atheist.
And you would think that if there were one "correct" religion, it would be difficult to raise a child to be anything else.  Funny how it seems to depend, at least until the child is old enough to (hopefully) start thinking for him/herself, 100% on what the parents believe and not on any other factor.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Mike Cl on May 17, 2015, 01:07:09 PM
Quote from: trdsf on May 17, 2015, 01:00:06 PM
And you would think that if there were one "correct" religion, it would be difficult to raise a child to be anything else.  Funny how it seems to depend, at least until the child is old enough to (hopefully) start thinking for him/herself, 100% on what the parents believe and not on any other factor.
Exactly, and it is where the parents live that determines what that religion is.  One's religion is determined almost totally by accident.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: SGOS on May 17, 2015, 01:36:54 PM
Quote from: trdsf on May 17, 2015, 01:00:06 PM
And you would think that if there were one "correct" religion, it would be difficult to raise a child to be anything else.  Funny how it seems to depend, at least until the child is old enough to (hopefully) start thinking for him/herself, 100% on what the parents believe and not on any other factor.

Quote from: Mike Cl on May 17, 2015, 01:07:09 PM
Exactly, and it is where the parents live that determines what that religion is.  One's religion is determined almost totally by accident.

When I started learning about all those other Gods down through the ages that were sincerely believed in by the ancients, just as sincerely, or even as hypocritically as modern day Christians believe in the more fashionable modern day god, I quickly noticed the myth like similarities of the cast-away gods with the modern god.  While such observations are not rocket science, they do invite thoughtful consideration.

Mankind keeps throwing out gods in favor of new gods, somewhat different, but always without evidence as mankind flocks to a "new and improved" god, and now we have just one god, the real god, which the ancients somehow overlooked.  How could anyone overlook the real god?

But wait, as I observe the world today, there are still many different gods competing for our attention.  There are gods of the West, gods of the Mideast, and gods of the Fareast.  And each of the demographic areas are sprinkled with lesser gods that are supported equally enthusiastically, but by smaller segments of the population.

Mankind's history is rich in god mythologies.  Even mankind's current world is rich in god mythologies.  But theists all seem to know that all the OTHER gods, including all the OTHER CURRENT gods are false.  How they know this seems to be a function of demographic birth rite.  There is no actual knowledge involved.  You are born and raised into it.  Few people question the birth rite.  And maybe even fewer test their "knowledge".
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: the_antithesis on May 17, 2015, 01:52:55 PM
Quote from: Odoital778412 on May 17, 2015, 06:59:24 AM
I think Atheism was less common in the past simply because there weren't as many contrivances and rationalizations developed and adopted by mankind to make a more comfortable atheism possible.  Most human beings recognize their environment and life itself as an effect of a much greater cause intuitively.  Unless you're enabled to reject your built-in intuitions, things like atheism are very hard to affirm.

What the hell is wrong with you?
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Mike Cl on May 17, 2015, 03:19:32 PM
Quote from: the_antithesis on May 17, 2015, 01:52:55 PM
What the hell is wrong with you?
That's a silly question--he said he was a christian. 
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Solitary on May 17, 2015, 04:44:51 PM
Quote from: Fidel_Castronaut on April 24, 2015, 07:02:28 PM
It's not impressive, it's just what it is.

What word or meaning have I twisted? Cite it, using the post and comtext. The only bullshit on this thread appears to be what you're deficating out, love. Tell me, do you agree that defining a 'true' liberal is nonsensical when you use the arbitrary test of '"not finding things boring" as a qualifier?

This sounds like lunacy, most likely because it is.
Have you noticed that every time this so called atheist troll gives a compliment he ends it with a despairing remark to atheists Fidel?  He thinks he is cute when he is just annoying like a bratty child. Solitary
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on May 17, 2015, 04:48:08 PM
Quote from: Solitary on May 17, 2015, 04:44:51 PM
Have you noticed that every time this so called atheist troll gives a compliment he ends it with a despairing remark to atheists Fidel?  He thinks he is cute when he is just annoying like bratty child. Solitary

If I like you you will like me.
And oh how happy we will be.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Solitary on May 17, 2015, 04:54:21 PM
If you like me hell really is empty, and all the devils are here now Leviathan.  :madu: :super: Solitary
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on May 17, 2015, 06:15:22 PM
Quote from: Solitary on May 17, 2015, 04:54:21 PM
If you like me hell really is empty, and all the devils are here now Leviathan.  :madu: :super: Solitary

You can talk to me.  I mean if you really were addressing Fidel you could have done so privately.   So I figured you were just being bashful.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on May 17, 2015, 06:21:35 PM
I lost the printed instructions that were on the inside of my eyelids when I was born..
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Feral Atheist on May 17, 2015, 11:03:21 PM
If Atheism is abnormal human behavior ..... then believing in spooks, gods, spirits, angels and similar absurdities is normal.  Then I don't want to be normal.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Mike Cl on May 17, 2015, 11:15:48 PM
Quote from: Feral Atheist on May 17, 2015, 11:03:21 PM
If Atheism is abnormal human behavior ..... then believing in spooks, gods, spirits, angels and similar absurdities is normal.  Then I don't want to be normal.
The normal--abnormal scale is not really that helpful or informational.  One end is what is considered 'normal' and unless you know what that means, that is fairly useless.  On the other end is 'abnormal' which just means not normal--and if you don't know what that is, is meaningless, too.  I prefer the healthy--unhealthy scale.  So, atheism is healthy and any religion is unhealthy.  Since having a religion is 'normal', like you I'd rather be (and am) abnormal.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Solitary on May 20, 2015, 08:17:36 PM
I couldn't agree with you more!  :super: Solitary
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Munch on May 21, 2015, 04:36:26 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 17, 2015, 11:15:48 PM
The normal--abnormal scale is not really that helpful or informational.  One end is what is considered 'normal' and unless you know what that means, that is fairly useless.  On the other end is 'abnormal' which just means not normal--and if you don't know what that is, is meaningless, too.  I prefer the healthy--unhealthy scale.  So, atheism is healthy and any religion is unhealthy.  Since having a religion is 'normal', like you I'd rather be (and am) abnormal.

thats really good. after all what is 'normal' is never set in stone, it is only a faculty of ideas set by certain groups that their way as they understand it is the norm, and anything outside of those rigid set of rules is not. To people in western countries, eating bugs isn't considered normal, but in tropical climates, tribes will cook and eat bugs because they are plenty, so that is the normal for them.
A christian fundie thinks straight white christian is 'normal' because its his bubble, and a gay liberal atheist isn't. People don't have to right to dictate normality when they can't think outside the box themselves.

I also like the term 'heteronormativity', something tv shows, game and movie markers in the big media are known for in abundance.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Ace101 on May 22, 2015, 12:30:06 AM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 11:25:44 AM
The realization there is no God is not really very profound.  And identifying as an atheist is not either.  It is usually a transient view for most of us on the way to believing something else just as ridiculous.  So the real issue is not god but just us.  And atheists often reach their views not because of rational observation but because we are still looking for something to believe in. The reason we are here is so we can still retain some sense of belonging while behaving just like the religious do.

"Researchers who study the psychology and neuroscience of religion are helping to explain why such beliefs are so enduring. They’re finding that religion may, in fact, be a byproduct of the way our brains work, growing from cognitive tendencies to seek order from chaos, to anthropomorphize our environment and to believe the world around us was created for our use."

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2010/12/believe.aspx
The problem is that doesn't endorse the idea of a specific God, like the Christian god.

That's akin to saying "you can't prove that aliens don't exist, therefore it's totally possible that Mr. Spock exists in real life".
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on May 22, 2015, 08:46:42 AM
Quote from: Ace101 on May 22, 2015, 12:30:06 AM
The problem is that doesn't endorse the idea of a specific God, like the Christian god.

That's akin to saying "you can't prove that aliens don't exist, therefore it's totally possible that Mr. Spock exists in real life".

That's a good analogy.  That's why I have always believed in Santa Claus.  Baby Jesus never brought me any presents. :-)
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Mike Cl on May 22, 2015, 08:54:02 AM
Quote from: Munch on May 21, 2015, 04:36:26 AM

I also like the term 'heteronormativity', something tv shows, game and movie markers in the big media are known for in abundance.
That's a new term for me--I like that.  Hard to pronounce, tho.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on May 22, 2015, 09:07:51 AM
Quote from: Ace101 on May 22, 2015, 12:30:06 AM
The problem is that doesn't endorse the idea of a specific God, like the Christian god.

That's akin to saying "you can't prove that aliens don't exist, therefore it's totally possible that Mr. Spock exists in real life".

Here's how I feel about it. 

"Life without Santa is dreary and unromantic, and life with Santa is fun and magical. So we might as well believe in him."

http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/opinionator/2014/12/20/should-we-believe-in-santa-claus/?referrer=
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Munch on May 22, 2015, 09:36:37 AM
Quote from: Givemeareason on May 22, 2015, 09:07:51 AM
Here's how I feel about it. 

"Life without Santa is dreary and unromantic, and life with Santa is fun and magical. So we might as well believe in him."

http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/opinionator/2014/12/20/should-we-believe-in-santa-claus/?referrer=

Santa is a fictional being made for children to believe in, who grow out of it eventually. The whole idea is for them to grow up and put make believe behind them.
God is a fictional character adults still believe in and have never grown out of.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on May 22, 2015, 10:25:08 AM
Quote from: Munch on May 22, 2015, 09:36:37 AM
Santa is a fictional being made for children to believe in, who grow out of it eventually. The whole idea is for them to grow up and put make believe behind them.
God is a fictional character adults still believe in and have never grown out of.

Yes, but put yourself in their shoes.  Isn't it better to believe in anything than believe in nothing.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Munch on May 22, 2015, 10:29:08 AM
Quote from: Givemeareason on May 22, 2015, 10:25:08 AM
Yes, but put yourself in their shoes.  Isn't it better to believe in anything than believe in nothing.

Why? Explain why its better in your own interpretation.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Hydra009 on May 22, 2015, 11:10:35 AM
Quote from: Givemeareason on May 22, 2015, 10:25:08 AM
Yes, but put yourself in their shoes.
Most of us have.

QuoteIsn't it better to believe in anything than believe in nothing.
No.  And atheists don't "believe in nothing" as you really should know.

(http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m49ph2TLzT1r9a8hbo1_500.gif)
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Munch on May 22, 2015, 11:15:17 AM
Agreed. This bullshit of atheists not believing in or having awe for things is perpetuated by fundies. As an atheist, I don't believe in fundies fairy tales and their bullshit, but I have a strong sense of awe in the universe, what science achieves, and in amazing things people can work to and overcome.

Even as a skeptic, I can find a sense of awe when hearing things like a person saving a child from near impossible odds, or someone overcoming cancer.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on May 22, 2015, 11:36:17 AM
Quote from: Munch on May 22, 2015, 10:29:08 AM
Why? Explain why its better in your own interpretation.

Because I think I am coming full circle.  I used to think I believed in humanism and still do.  And I used to believe in nihilism but no longer.  And then I started to think I didn't believe in anything.  So now I am considering believing in everything (except god of course).
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on May 22, 2015, 11:37:33 AM
Quote from: Munch on May 22, 2015, 11:15:17 AM
Agreed. This bullshit of atheists not believing in or having awe for things is perpetuated by fundies. As an atheist, I don't believe in fundies fairy tales and their bullshit, but I have a strong sense of awe in the universe, what science achieves, and in amazing things people can work to and overcome.

Even as a skeptic, I can find a sense of awe when hearing things like a person saving a child from near impossible odds, or someone overcoming cancer.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on May 22, 2015, 11:39:11 AM
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 22, 2015, 11:10:35 AM
Most of us have.
No.  And atheists don't "believe in nothing" as you really should know.

(http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m49ph2TLzT1r9a8hbo1_500.gif)

Yep.  I sure do.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on May 22, 2015, 11:44:20 AM
[quote auth I am noiior=Munch link=topic=7575.msg1075329#msg1075329 date=1432304948]
Why? Explain why its better in your own interpretation.
[/quote]

The way I have come to look at life, Munch, when I am no longer here to do the job, somebody else will be.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Draconic Aiur on May 22, 2015, 07:25:26 PM
Abnormal behavior is thinking a invisible man in the sky is real. That's fucking crazy, in fact religious people need to go to a mental ward. Which is 99.9% of the world's people.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Feral Atheist on May 22, 2015, 08:52:31 PM
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 20, 2015, 11:25:44 AM
The realization there is no God is not really very profound.  And identifying as an atheist is not either.  It is usually a transient view for most of us on the way to believing something else just as ridiculous. 
Agreed!  I look at my atheists views (never a theist, never believed in any god) as just common sense. 

Yea, as a small kid, I kinda bought into the Santa thing, and even my atheist dad really left me wondering about Santa.  When I went to bed on Christmas Eve, there was nothing in the house, yet when I woke up in the morning, there was a tree, stockings, gifts, and one year I remember well a train board and electric train setup and running.  Jeeze, the poor man must have never went to bed to accomplish that.

But that was love, a very loving atheist parent (theists heads are spinning, but that is their issue). 

I have read the horror stories from people raised in a uber religious home, and it is the worst kind of child abuse short of sexual abuse I could imagine.  And the religious "programming" often is started before potty training is attempted.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on May 22, 2015, 10:07:50 PM
Quote from: Feral Atheist on May 22, 2015, 08:52:31 PM
Agreed!  I look at my atheists views (never a theist, never believed in any god) as just common sense. 

Yea, as a small kid, I kinda bought into the Santa thing, and even my atheist dad really left me wondering about Santa.  When I went to bed on Christmas Eve, there was nothing in the house, yet when I woke up in the morning, there was a tree, stockings, gifts, and one year I remember well a train board and electric train setup and running.  Jeeze, the poor man must have never went to bed to accomplish that.

But that was love, a very loving atheist parent (theists heads are spinning, but that is their issue). 

I have read the horror stories from people raised in a uber religious home, and it is the worst kind of child abuse short of sexual abuse I could imagine.  And the religious "programming" often is started before potty training is attempted.

Well I was a lot less disapointed when I found there was no Santa than when I got baptized only to discover there was no god. :-)
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Givemeareason on May 23, 2015, 08:40:42 AM
Quote from: aitm on April 20, 2015, 02:57:15 PM
well, please by all means enlighten us as to what can possibly be "more ridiculous" than gods that man has created by the thousands.

How about just me? :-)
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: SoldierofFortune on May 23, 2015, 09:31:02 AM
contrarily, atheism is default behavior. an new-born baby is an atheist.
family teach religion.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Odoital778412 on May 31, 2015, 06:22:40 AM
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 17, 2015, 10:32:25 AM
I dunno about contrivances and rationalizations.  In the ancient past, very few people in one's community knew much of anything about the natural world, and most of what was known was shrouded in myth.  You didn't come into much contact with other cultures, so you're unlikely to know much of other religions.  And openly rejecting the tribe's myths was pretty much a death sentence.  So yeah, not a favorable environment for religious skepticism.
Well, yeah.  Obviously, our world is part of a larger cosmological picture.  But the $64,000 question is whether or not that root cause is some sort of divine entity.  I'm decidedly skeptical on that.
That might have been the case, but the point I was making is that now we have myriad ways of rationalizing and contriving all kinds of exits from one belief and entry into another.  And while they can be an example of dropping a false belief for something that more closely responds to reality, it certainly doesn't have to be.  It's rather like the old Dawkins' quote that "Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist."  So Darwin's theory gave atheism some level of scientific plausibility and therefore respectability that it probably didn't have before.  Today, given our level of knowledge, there are all kinds of ways of exiting one view and adopting another.  The proliferation of knowledge leads to a proliferation of views, not because all of the views are true, but because we often prefer to believe things for other reasons apart from their veracity.

With regard to your other comment, I think the evidence is likely on the side of the divine entity.  Due to the fact that the Universe itself came into being at a point in the finite past, you don't have a lot of options.  That Universe that began either came into being from nothing and by nothing, or it came into being from something and by something.  The first statement is a violation of our repeated and uniform experience as human beings.  Generally speaking, or as a rule, things to not pop into being from a state of non-being.  In addition, I actually like the simple deductive argument, which I'm sure you're well aware of:

1) Whatever beings to exist has a cause.
2) The Universe began to exist.
3) Therefore the Universe has a cause.

Are there objections to the argument?  Sure there are.  Even if that statement is 100% true, I expect a certain number of people to object.  Having said that, I'm persuaded that it's true, and I've not heard or seen an objection that has been persuasive enough to unseat that reality in my mind.  I'm further persuaded by the kind of world that I live in that the cause involved is likely transcendent and personal.  There are of course logical and philosophical reasons behind that, but I think that it's much more plausibly true than the alternative.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Odoital778412 on May 31, 2015, 06:38:41 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 17, 2015, 10:54:56 AM
What are 'contrivances and rationalizations'???  I'm not an atheist because it is more 'comfortable'--actually it is a little less comfortable than claiming theism of some sort.  I do recognize my environment--and myself--as the result of a greater cause.  That 'cause' however is not divine in any way, shape or form.  Atheism is simply the rejection of a belief in any god.  That is not hard, in the least, to affirm.  You can believe in fairy tales if you wish--I chose not to.  Pretty easy.
I don't know.  They are probably different for everyone.  If you don't believe that there is a God, how or why would believing something you believe to be untrue be comforting?  What is a greater cause?  Why is it not divine in any way, shape or form?  Yeah, that's one definition I've heard of atheism, though it's not the only one people use.  In your case though, isn't your rejection based upon something?  I actually don't think that verdict is in with regard to whether or not the existence of God is a fairy tale.  Quite the opposite in fact.  But I've heard that kind of thing a lot, and it always makes me a chuckle a bit.  I always think, wouldn't it be funny if the idea of their being no God ended up being the ultimate fairy tale?  I tend not to put it in those terms personally though.  While most of the atheists I meet tend not to be overly serious about their knowledge, facts, and largely rhetorical objections to the supernatural and Christianity; I know that there are some who are.  They are, so far as their knowledge and understanding go, actually convinced that the facts are on their side.  For that reason, I try to avoid talking in terms of fairy tales and the like.  Differences of opinion with regard to our interpretation of the facts is one thing.  But dismissing an alternative interpretation of the facts as something like mere fairy tale is further than I can usually go.  After all, I was a history major in college, and it's not hard to find a lot of intelligent people who made mistakes and were wrong regarding their interpretation of the facts.  Just out of humility, I have to leave open the possibility that I'm wrong and they're right.  It's part of the reason that I choose to expose myself to forums such as this.  You can see from the comments the kind of abuse that a person like myself has to take, simply for the privilege of interacting with other human beings who happen to believe differently than myself.  Why else would I do that, if it weren't in part, to test what I believe and see if it stands up to scrutiny?
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Odoital778412 on May 31, 2015, 07:15:09 AM
Quote from: aitm on May 17, 2015, 11:14:46 AM
Indeed originally there was no belief at all. Religion was invented by man. How that developed is pretty easy to see in the history of humanity.
I agree, many false religions have been created by mankind.  However, I think that such creations were, in part, a result of their moral intuitions.  In other words, even the simplest human beings with the slightest amount of knowledge could still recognize self-evident truths or obvious realities.  For example, every human being probably assumes, because it's so basic, that they came from someone and somewhere.  It's not hard to make this same connection to other things like your environment, the world, etc...

Quote from: aitm on May 17, 2015, 11:14:46 AM
What? Really, what does that even mean? Contrivances and rationalizations is what humanity adapted in order for religion to flourish, not the other way around. Have you even studied the history of religions?
Rationalization (also known as making excuses) is a defense mechanism in which controversial behaviors or feelings are justified and explained in a seemingly rational or logical manner to avoid the true explanation, and are made consciously tolerable â€" or even admirable and superior â€" by plausible means.

Contrivance is a thing that is created skillfully and inventively to serve a particular purpose.

Actually, I have.  My background is in History, philosophy of religion, religion & theology.  So yeah, and I agree that a lot of false religions have been created.  Religions can be rationalizations just like anything else, including atheism.  That's why you want to be very careful when deciding what you believe.  You want it to correspond to reality and cohere together or make sense of itself in that reality.

Quote from: aitm on May 17, 2015, 11:14:46 AM
No, most humans hope that life has a greater purpose that what reality shows them. We call it wishful thinking, or to some irrational beliefs.
I agree in part, in that people "feel" that there is a greater purpose or reality than just this life.  We feel it when children are born, when we see apparent needless or gratuitous suffering, and when we lose loved ones.  You can call our intuitions wishful thinking, but labeling it as such won't necessarily make it so.

Quote from: aitm on May 17, 2015, 11:14:46 AM
Enabled? By enabled do you mean afforded an education beyond the 4th grade?
No. Enable means to give (someone or something) the authority or means to do something.

Quote from: aitm on May 17, 2015, 11:14:46 AM
Built in intuitions? What horse crap is that?
It means that sentient human beings possess inborn faculties that we tend to take for granted but nonetheless exist.  I cannot continue to define each word for you though.  Look into epistemology...specifically, pick up a few books written by Alvin Plantinga.

Quote from: aitm on May 17, 2015, 11:14:46 AM
Atheism doesn't need affirmation, it is the default case. Do you not notice the millions of churches and the like that are built to help keep the affirmation of religion indoctrination? Now, look around……...see any ones for atheists?
Man…talk about a whack-a-doodle sentence
Of course!  I see them all over the place.  But atheists are in the business of freeing themselves from the shackles of organization, so I don't see them setting up a church of atheism.  Instead they just write books, attempting to convince everyone else to join them in their atheism.  I would point you toward Peter Boghossian's A Manual for Creating Atheists.  Maybe one day they'll set up buildings for you.  I don't know, but I guess it's something for you to shoot for.

But the question really is, why would atheism be the default position?  Surely you'd need other information to get you to atheism first.  And do we know that its foundation is correct?
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: aitm on May 31, 2015, 09:22:20 AM
Quote from: Odoital778412 on May 31, 2015, 07:15:09 AM

But the question really is, why would atheism be the default position?  Surely you'd need other information to get you to atheism first.  And do we know that its foundation is correct?

You jest. Children are not born religious, they have to be taught. They are by default "non-believers" in a god.  That kind of stupidity has to be taught and continued to be pounded into their brain so they can grow up to be irrational like you. 

That the gods and their demands always seem to fit neatly into the cultures that they rule over do not seem even a little convenient to you? That the hundreds of gods now deemed myths but at one time were quite real does not impact your opinions that man has invented all the gods? That you can actually read your babble and not come away feeling like a damn idiot is laughable when you turn around and suggest to someone else, "how do we know that its foundation is correct?"  That's some funny shit there. Well maybe not funny, more like sad, really sad that all your efforts go into contorting your logic to convince yourself that you have not been taken for a fool. Well, it will be a never ending battle for you. Every day something new challenges the old goat herder story and once again you are forced into mental contortions to get your logic to continue you believe you are correct because the embarrassment of being wrong in not an option.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Mike Cl on May 31, 2015, 09:47:08 AM
Quote from: aitm on May 31, 2015, 09:22:20 AM
You jest. Children are not born religious, they have to be taught. They are by default "non-believers" in a god.  That kind of stupidity has to be taught and continued to be pounded into their brain so they can grow up to be irrational like you. 

That the gods and their demands always seem to fit neatly into the cultures that they rule over do not seem even a little convenient to you? That the hundreds of gods now deemed myths but at one time were quite real does not impact your opinions that man has invented all the gods? That you can actually read your babble and not come away feeling like a damn idiot is laughable when you turn around and suggest to someone else, "how do we know that its foundation is correct?"  That's some funny shit there. Well maybe not funny, more like sad, really sad that all your efforts go into contorting your logic to convince yourself that you have not been taken for a fool. Well, it will be a never ending battle for you. Every day something new challenges the old goat herder story and once again you are forced into mental contortions to get your logic to continue you believe you are correct because the embarrassment of being wrong in not an option.
Yeah, this thought that religion (insert which one depending upon what area of the world one is born in or into what culture) is the 'default' position is really a boat load of arrogance, if you think about it.  With the way he worded the question he is basically saying---'My religion is so important and obviously the Truth, that even a newborn knows it, and that makes me so important--atheists, however, have to be taught to hate the Lord from day one.  If they just stop the hating, they will see.  I know The Truth!'  All Odoital knows is that from age 3 he was a believer.  So, he has his entire soul (not that that concept is real) dedicated to making that fact real and accurate.  Above all else, that belief has to be the Truth.  If it is proven to him that belief is false, then his entire emotional and psychological world comes tumbling down.  He cannot let that happen.  Hence, he has to stop coming here.

A phrase that the christians utter, makes me shake my head every time I hear it.  And I hear it a lot in christian circles:  There, but for the grace of God, go I.  They utter it when the are made aware of a tragedy or something bad happening to somebody else.  If you think about it, they are really saying--God loves me and graces me, but not you--I wonder what you did to make God angry at you?  Words come out of their mouths with any thought attached to them.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Odoital778412 on May 31, 2015, 10:49:40 AM
Quote from: aitm on May 31, 2015, 09:22:20 AM
You jest. Children are not born religious, they have to be taught. They are by default "non-believers" in a god.  That kind of stupidity has to be taught and continued to be pounded into their brain so they can grow up to be irrational like you. 

That the gods and their demands always seem to fit neatly into the cultures that they rule over do not seem even a little convenient to you? That the hundreds of gods now deemed myths but at one time were quite real does not impact your opinions that man has invented all the gods? That you can actually read your babble and not come away feeling like a damn idiot is laughable when you turn around and suggest to someone else, "how do we know that its foundation is correct?"  That's some funny shit there. Well maybe not funny, more like sad, really sad that all your efforts go into contorting your logic to convince yourself that you have not been taken for a fool. Well, it will be a never ending battle for you. Every day something new challenges the old goat herder story and once again you are forced into mental contortions to get your logic to continue you believe you are correct because the embarrassment of being wrong in not an option.
I agree that falleness is our default position, but specifically, atheism?  I don't think so.  Merely not being religious doesn't make someone an atheist.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: SGOS on May 31, 2015, 11:02:59 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 31, 2015, 09:47:08 AM
Yeah, this thought that religion (insert which one depending upon what area of the world one is born in or into what culture) is the 'default' position is really a boat load of arrogance, if you think about it.  With the way he worded the question he is basically saying---'My religion is so important and obviously the Truth, that even a newborn knows it

Yes, it is arrogance (IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT), but Christians, at least those who show up here DON'T THINK ABOUT IT.  Everything they believe about themselves is part of their indoctrination.  They believe that belief in their specific God, the one they were taught is their God, is the default, because it has never occurred to them to think otherwise.  They believe they are humble having great humility, because that is what they are told Christians are, and it has never occurred to them to think about it.  They don't understand that believing they are specially created by a god, in that god's own image no less, is not an obviously arrogant perception, because it has never occurred to them to think about it.  It's called "indoctrination."  Certain memes useful to the perpetuation of the religion are drilled into them so thoroughly that it never occurs to them to think otherwise.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Mike Cl on May 31, 2015, 11:11:31 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 31, 2015, 09:47:08 AM
Yeah, this thought that religion (insert which one depending upon what area of the world one is born in or into what culture) is the 'default' position is really a boat load of arrogance, if you think about it.  With the way he worded the question he is basically saying---'My religion is so important and obviously the Truth, that even a newborn knows it, and that makes me so important--atheists, however, have to be taught to hate the Lord from day one.  If they just stop the hating, they will see.  I know The Truth!'  All Odoital knows is that from age 3 he was a believer.  So, he has his entire soul (not that that concept is real) dedicated to making that fact real and accurate.  Above all else, that belief has to be the Truth.  If it is proven to him that belief is false, then his entire emotional and psychological world comes tumbling down.  He cannot let that happen.  Hence, he has to stop coming here.

A phrase that the christians utter, makes me shake my head every time I hear it.  And I hear it a lot in christian circles:  There, but for the grace of God, go I.  They utter it when the are made aware of a tragedy or something bad happening to somebody else.  If you think about it, they are really saying--God loves me and graces me, but not you--I wonder what you did to make God angry at you?  Words come out of their mouths with any thought attached to them.

Well, I guess I was wrong about Odoital--he did not leave us.  Which is fine with me. :)
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Savior2006 on May 31, 2015, 11:17:29 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 31, 2015, 11:11:31 AM
Well, I guess I was wrong about Odoital--he did not leave us.  Which is fine with me. :)

That's okay. I got another bag of popcorn for the ocassion.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: SGOS on May 31, 2015, 11:21:28 AM
Quote from: Odoital778412 on May 31, 2015, 10:49:40 AM
I agree that falleness is our default position, but specifically, atheism?  I don't think so.  Merely not being religious doesn't make someone an atheist.

Falleness?  My spell check keeps identifying this as "not a word."  But I get it.  You're talking about original sin.  Well, that's nice, but it's not what people here are talking about.  We are talking about atheism, and since you came here without knowing much about it, we are trying to explain it to you.

Whether or not falleness is a default position, or not, has nothing to do with atheism being a default position.  The default is a blank slate, that includes no belief in the Christian god.  And no belief in Thor either, by the way.  Where you get this idea that everyone, Hindus and Taoists included, are born believing in the construct of a God is a silly perception IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT.  And being born with a belief in Jesus Christ would be nothing short of idiotic.

I don't believe there is even a genetic predisposition to believe in a god.  There have been several written articles in scientific journals speculating on it, but most of the written articles are in places like People Magazine.  As a result, I hold no belief as of yet that this might be true.  I tend to think such a predisposition is actually nurtured into consciousness by significant others.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Mike Cl on May 31, 2015, 11:56:44 AM
Quote from: Savior2006 on May 31, 2015, 11:17:29 AM
That's okay. I got another bag of popcorn for the ocassion.
:)))))))))))))))))))
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: leo on May 31, 2015, 12:05:19 PM
I got popcorn and coca cola. :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Mike Cl on May 31, 2015, 12:19:51 PM
Quote from: leo on May 31, 2015, 12:05:19 PM
I got popcorn and coca cola. :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I envy you your coca cola.  Drinking it for me is like drinking poison.  (My body chemistry is so screwed up) But that shit sure does taste good!  and I like popcorn, too, but the butter gets all over my keyboard, so I don't eat--only for movies.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Munch on May 31, 2015, 12:23:38 PM
Quote from: Odoital778412 on May 31, 2015, 10:49:40 AM
I agree that falleness is our default position, but specifically, atheism?  I don't think so.  Merely not being religious doesn't make someone an atheist.

Your confusing atheist for anti-theist.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Hydra009 on May 31, 2015, 01:31:40 PM
Quote from: Odoital778412 on May 31, 2015, 06:22:40 AM
That might have been the case, but the point I was making is that now we have myriad ways of rationalizing and contriving all kinds of exits from one belief and entry into another.  And while they can be an example of dropping a false belief for something that more closely responds to reality, it certainly doesn't have to be.
What a convoluted and terrible way of saying "people change their beliefs all the time, but new beliefs aren't necessarily more accurate than old beliefs".

QuoteIt's rather like the old Dawkins' quote that "Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist."  So Darwin's theory gave atheism some level of scientific plausibility and therefore respectability that it probably didn't have before.
Let me stop you right there.  That's not actually true. (http://evolutionwiki.org/wiki/Darwin_made_it_easy_to_become_an_intellectually_fulfilled_atheist)  Atheism isn't based on any particular scientific theory, let alone evolution.  And I have a real problem with creationist attempts to portray the two as if they're joined at the hip.  No.  They're stand-alone.  If you want to debate them, you've got to do it separately.

* Before Charles Darwin, people knew that evolution happened.  Hell, there were theories of evolution before Darwin.  He's just the one who came up with a rigorous treatment on the subject and came up with a verifiable mechanism for it that passed muster in the scientific community.

*  Even at the height of human ignorance, it's still possible to not go with the theistic explanation and go with the more intellectually honest "I don't know".  By the way, that's what atheist still do in stark contrast with God-of-the-Gaps arguments.

*  And according to your logic (well, not really your logic, whoever came up with that quote's logic), every single scientific field makes it possible "to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist" since they all replace supernatural explanations with naturalistic, empiricism-based explanations.

QuoteToday, given our level of knowledge, there are all kinds of ways of exiting one view and adopting another.  The proliferation of knowledge leads to a proliferation of views, not because all of the views are true, but because we often prefer to believe things for other reasons apart from their veracity.
No.  A proliferation of views tends to happen in the absence of knowledge.  Incidentally, how many Christian denominations are we up to now?  As we amass data about a phenomenon (astronomy or biology or climatology), it tends to lead to a few inescapable conclusions.  Though, obviously, pseudoscientific ideas are still championed long after they've been debunked.  Hence the fact of me talking to an Intelligent Design advocate (aka creationist) in 2015, long after even its political campaign ended in the Kitzmiller court case.

QuoteWith regard to your other comment, I think the evidence is likely on the side of the divine entity.
Well yeah, of course you would think that.  Yet as we've already been over, you can't provide actual evidence for your conclusion, simply arguments which frankly, have been debunked for centuries before either of us were even born.

QuoteDue to the fact that the Universe itself came into being at a point in the finite past, you don't have a lot of options.  That Universe that began either came into being from nothing and by nothing, or it came into being from something and by something.  The first statement is a violation of our repeated and uniform experience as human beings.  Generally speaking, or as a rule, things to not pop into being from a state of non-being.  In addition, I actually like the simple deductive argument, which I'm sure you're well aware of:

1) Whatever beings to exist has a cause.
2) The Universe began to exist.
3) Therefore the Universe has a cause.
(http://winace.courageunfettered.com/pics/broken_record.jpg)

This stuff again?  Do you have any idea how much we've hashed out that argument?!  Do me a favor and search the forum for "Kalam".  It's there, I guarantee it.

QuoteAre there objections to the argument?  Sure there are.
Well, there you go.  Now all you have to do is look into the objections with a scrap of intellectual honesty and you'd...

QuoteEven if that statement is 100% true, I expect a certain number of people to object.  Having said that, I'm persuaded that it's true, and I've not heard or seen an objection that has been persuasive enough to unseat that reality in my mind.
...believe whatever you want to believe anyway.   :wall:

QuoteI'm further persuaded by the kind of world that I live in that the cause involved is likely transcendent and personal.  There are of course logical and philosophical reasons behind that, but I think that it's much more plausibly true than the alternative.
Whatever those "logical and philosophical reasons" are, they're likely on exactly the same level as everything you've said so far, essentially wishful thinking with a cheap veneer of science.  Hardly worth my time.  Or anyone's, really.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Mermaid on May 31, 2015, 01:33:05 PM
Quote from: Givemeareason on May 22, 2015, 10:25:08 AM
Yes, but put yourself in their shoes.  Isn't it better to believe in anything than believe in nothing.
Uh. No.
Title: Re: Atheism is abnormal human behavior
Post by: Savior2006 on May 31, 2015, 02:04:24 PM
Quote from: Mermaid on May 31, 2015, 01:33:05 PM
Uh. No.

Atheists believe in many things. Deities that can't even remotely be perceived in nature simply aren't one of them.