I have a hard time believing that any members of this "religion" seriously believe in these ancient pagan gods, or in "magic" or anything else - to me it's more like a "live action fantasy role playing club" than an actual religion - what say you?
Where do you draw the line at fake religion? I think they're all fake. I think wiccan is at least as legit as any other religion, at least they worship nature instead of some dead guy.
What about Scientology?
Quote from: Mermaid on March 29, 2015, 03:52:22 PM
Where do you draw the line at fake religion? I think they're all fake. I think wiccan is at least as legit as any other religion, at least they worship nature instead of some dead guy.
The difference is that I think Christians who grow up heavily influenced by religion have a stronger belief in it, than someone just deciding on their own to start worshiping some ancient pagan god which no one believes in. I think it's more like a counter-culture thing than a real religion - similar to Le Vey Satanism - I doubt the majority of them literally believe in Satan.
Quote
What about Scientology?
Scientology's more of a cult and members are heavily controlled, but as far as I know wicca isn't a very organized religion. I think Scientologists are more brainwashed and probably believe the stuff about dianetics, Xenu, etc
What do you mean by "fake religion" all religions are man made.
Quote from: Ace101 on March 29, 2015, 03:39:51 PM
I have a hard time believing that any members of this "religion" seriously believe in these ancient pagan gods, or in "magic" or anything else - to me it's more like a "live action fantasy role playing club" than an actual religion - what say you?
really? I mean….really? You ever even read the babble? You have got to be fuckin with us….me thinks a serious look at your IP is called for, no one is that dumb on purpose…well, not and still be able to use a computer...
My former girl friend was a Wiccan and sure put a spell on me. :syda: :syda: :syda: :flowers: :flowers: :flowers: :wink2: :kidra: :biggrin2: Solitary
Define fake. Because that sounds like every religion.
Quote from: aitm on March 29, 2015, 04:39:44 PM
really? I mean….really? You ever even read the babble? You have got to be fuckin with us….me thinks a serious look at your IP is called for, no one is that dumb on purpose…well, not and still be able to use a computer...
Jesus Christ, what a lot of horseshit - most people who are Christian grew up being taught it from a young age - most people who are Wiccan just 'decide one day' to start worshiping ancient pagan gods who no one believes in - huge difference. There's no effort to 'recruit' people into being Wiccans, or 'provide proof' that their religion is true - like there is in Christianity or Islam. I think the majority of them are just rebellious teens (and adults) who want negative attention and don't really believe any of it.
I don't see a huge distinction between any religion on a very basic level.
Quote from: Ace101 on March 29, 2015, 03:39:51 PM
I have a hard time believing that any members of this "religion" seriously believe in these ancient pagan gods, or in "magic" or anything else - to me it's more like a "live action fantasy role playing club" than an actual religion - what say you?
Well, it does sound kind of fun, cavorting through the woods at night, and having pagan rituals next to the bonfire doing "whatever". I'll guess half the people do it because it's fun. Wouldn't a religion that's a fun fantasy be more appealing than Christian blood and gore, eternal torture, and hate speech? You may not believe in magic, but the idea that maybe it could be real allows you to politically correctly say, "Me? Why yes, I'm a very spiritual person."
Too bad that witch lady that used to hang out here is gone. She could probably provide an opinion about this that would be worth considering.
How many people actually 'believe' in the Flying Spaghetti Monster for example? There might be some crazy person somewhere who does, but I think 99% of the "pastafarians" just worship it for fun.
QuoteThe difference is that I think Christians who grow up heavily influenced by religion have a stronger belief in it, than someone just deciding on their own to start worshiping some ancient pagan god which no one believes in.
Well, I don't know about how Wiccans justify it, but... the ancient pagan gods are what my ancestors worshiped, does that not give me right to start worshiping them again if I liked? If hundreds of generations of my blood were born, lived, and died believing in it... well, far more generations of my kin believed in pagan gods than believed in the Abrahamic god.
To me the belief in Christianity is more the fringe religion because, frankly, my people have not followed it for very long compared to the gods of old. If you add up the members of my ancestors, Christianity is far more the counter-culture and the "pagan" believers are the more conservative side to go with.
For me personally, if I was to worship the pagan gods it would be out of respect and to become more in touch with my ancestors more than anything else. If that makes me an "angst, rebellious teen/adult"... meh, so be it. By your own admission Wiccans aren't going out trying to convert people; rather it is other's who make a big hoo-ha out of them. How can be they rebellious attention seekers if they aren't the one's seeking attention?
It's as real as a genuine imitation plastic diamond, but if it gets you all gooey and warm inside as opposed to killing others for it then I say go for it..
Quote from: Ace101 on March 29, 2015, 03:39:51 PM
I have a hard time believing that any members of this "religion" seriously believe in these ancient pagan gods, or in "magic" or anything else - to me it's more like a "live action fantasy role playing club" than an actual religion - what say you?
Why are their gods more difficult to believe than Jesus Christ or Allah???? Or Zeus or Thor or, well, any other magic man or woman in the sky???? The catholic church is even more like a 'live action fantasy role playing club' than Wicca. The belief in magic is simply belief in magic--it requires one to have 'belief' and then to believe in magic or supernatural happenings.
Quote from: Ace101 on March 29, 2015, 05:39:30 PM
Jesus Christ, what a lot of horseshit - most people who are Christian grew up being taught it from a young age - most people who are Wiccan just 'decide one day' to start worshiping ancient pagan gods who no one believes in - huge difference. There's no effort to 'recruit' people into being Wiccans, or 'provide proof' that their religion is true - like there is in Christianity or Islam. I think the majority of them are just rebellious teens (and adults) who want negative attention and don't really believe any of it.
Yep, I've been at it for 20 years, it must be a phase.
I think this sums it up:
(http://cdndata.bigfooty.com/2015/01/104614_632e20b44fe2b6e0461323cc4142ba87.jpeg)
So what's the deal here, Ace? come on the forum and see how many people you can piss off before getting booted? If you want to make comments about stuff why don't you first look it up. wikipedia, google, that kind of shit. Every religion from our viewpoint can be looked at as fake because they are based on supernatural beliefs.
Strangely enough, Wicca also includes knowledge of herbal medicines and belief in natural cycles and a natural lifestyle to go with it. All in all a fairly healthy lifestyle that does not, to my knowledge, impinge on anyone's rights. It is also based on very ancient pagan beliefs that predate most religions. Really ought to find this shit out before you join the forum and start spouting your opinions. We like to think we are informed people. Something that doesn't seem to work in your world.
(edit) So twink for brains is a Deist and he is bad mouthing Wicca? Stromboli will see where this goes...... :popcorn:
Quote from: Jason_Harvestdancer on March 29, 2015, 08:03:40 PM
Yep, I've been at it for 20 years, it must be a phase.
Not everyone grows out of it then
I seriously doubt though that you intellectually honestly believe that any of these pagan gods or magic rituals are real - why else would you post on an atheism website?
Quote from: stromboli on March 29, 2015, 08:46:32 PM
So what's the deal here, Ace? come on the forum and see how many people you can piss off before getting booted? If you want to make comments about stuff why don't you first look it up. wikipedia, google, that kind of shit. Every religion from our viewpoint can be looked at as fake because they are based on supernatural beliefs.
Strangely enough, Wicca also includes knowledge of herbal medicines and belief in natural cycles and a natural lifestyle to go with it. All in all a fairly healthy lifestyle that does not, to my knowledge, impinge on anyone's rights. It is also based on very ancient pagan beliefs that predate most religions. Really ought to find this shit out before you join the forum and start spouting your opinions. We like to think we are informed people. Something that doesn't seem to work in your world.
Are you a Wiccan? - why would an atheist be pissed off over a 'religion' that claims to practice magic? Or are you just 'defending' it because 'Christians don't like it '?
Quote
(edit) So twink for brains is a Deist and he is bad mouthing Wicca? Stromboli will see where this goes...... :popcorn:
Deism doesn't contradict science - belief in magic and pagan rituals does, as do all theistic versions of god
Quote from: Ace101 on March 29, 2015, 03:39:51 PM
I have a hard time believing that any members of this "religion" seriously believe in these ancient pagan gods, or in "magic" or anything else - to me it's more like a "live action fantasy role playing club" than an actual religion - what say you?
What makes wicca more fake than christianity or judaism?
Quote from: PickelledEggs on March 29, 2015, 10:05:17 PM
What makes wicca more fake than christianity or judaism?
Basically how many people seriously believe its real, versus how many people do it 'just for fun'
Quote from: Ace101 on March 29, 2015, 10:06:49 PM
Basically how many people seriously believe its real, versus how many people do it 'just for fun'
What about the people that seriously believe wicca is real
Quote from: PickelledEggs on March 29, 2015, 10:09:23 PM
What about the people that seriously believe wicca is real
I've never heard of any myself.
Never heard of Wiccas getting into 'debates' trying to convince others of their faith, or trying to find 'proof' of their Gods' origins like creationists do.
Quote from: Ace101 on March 29, 2015, 10:11:55 PM
I've never heard of any myself.
Never heard of Wiccas getting into 'debates' trying to convince others of their faith, or trying to find 'proof' of their Gods' origins like creationists do.
And that means they don't exist? because you never heard of them?
Ok... so lets get past your unawareness of people that believe in wicca and just go off of:
what makes wicca any less of a religion than christianity/judiaism/islam if they have people that believe it?
Deism argues for the existence of a god. God is a supernatural being. Deism is a religion. A deist criticizing Wicca is no different than a Catholic criticizing a Muslim and has exactly as much weight or proof behind it as any of those beliefs.
Wicca is based on Pagan beliefs that predate most modern religions. Wicca is a religion that believes in nature, natural processes and natural healing.
QuoteDeism (/ˈdiË.ɪzÉ™m/[1][2] or /ˈdeɪ.ɪzÉ™m/, derived from the Latin word deus meaning "god") combines a rejection of religious knowledge as a source of authority with the conclusion that reason and observation of the natural world are sufficient to determine the existence of a single creator of the universe.[3][4][5][6][7] Deism gained prominence among intellectuals during the Age of Enlightenment â€" especially in Britain, France, Germany and the United States â€" who, raised as Christians, believed in one god but became disenchanted with organized religion and notions such as the Trinity, Biblical inerrancy and the supernatural interpretation of events such as miracles.[8] Included in those influenced by its ideas were leaders of the American and French Revolutions.[9]
Nice definition. Uses the words "reason" and "Natural". News flash- it is still based on conjecture without proof and is still, as Aletheia pointed out, the pot calling the kettle black.
Quote from: Ace101 on March 29, 2015, 10:11:55 PM
I've never heard of any myself.
Never heard of Wiccas getting into 'debates' trying to convince others of their faith, or trying to find 'proof' of their Gods' origins like creationists do.
That's not how you tell if someone really believes.
Hey Ace! Educate yourself! Wiccans believe in magic, and Christians believe in a magic man in the sky that magically created the earth and universe and answers prayers. https://youtu.be/xF4DsggUcPc
It seemed real enough when I was a practicing Wiccan. Just like Catholicism seemed real enough when I was a practicing Catholic. Turns out they both have equal footing in reality: not much.
:biggrin2: Here is an example of excess energy and getting rid of it by a former Wiccan: https://youtu.be/yRZ9pcKzgaI
UM I've known a few wiccans. They were raised that way and it wasn't just fun for them. They believed as much as any christian.
The major difference how ever is that they were way more fun to hang out with then stuffy Christians.
Quote from: doorknob on March 29, 2015, 11:23:56 PM
UM I've known a few wiccans. They were raised that way and it wasn't just fun for them. They believed as much as any christian.
The major difference how ever is that they were way more fun to hang out with then stuffy Christians.
Sabrina is a Wiccan but no longer posts on here. I think I pissed her off or something. But I have great respect for her. And also Jason Harvestdancer, who has been on here longer than I have by a few years. We have disagreed on stuff, but I'd never disrespect his intelligence. I personally don't have a problem with Wicca because it involves a lot of natural healing, and as a person who spends as much time in nature as possible, I respect people who respect nature. I grew up with people who were much into natural healing and living with nature, so it has meaning for me.
Quote from: doorknob on March 29, 2015, 11:23:56 PM
UM I've known a few wiccans. They were raised that way and it wasn't just fun for them. They believed as much as any christian.
The major difference how ever is that they were way more fun to hang out with then stuffy Christians.
As a general rule, Wiccans don't feel obliged to shove their beliefs down your throat. The only time I ever met a Wiccan who was in the same mental space as your typical fundie of any other stripe was a hardcore Dianic who told me that I was a second class human being because I'm male.
That's the real danger of fundamentalism, regardless of which belief structure it's embedded in -- it allows, even encourages one to think they're better than a fellow human being.
Quote from: trdsf on March 29, 2015, 10:53:42 PM
It seemed real enough when I was a practicing Wiccan. Just like Catholicism seemed real enough when I was a practicing Catholic. Turns out they both have equal footing in reality: not much.
Just curious though - what evidence convinced you that it was true?
I mean I can see why a naive person might fall for "evidence" about Jesus' resurrection, and stuff like that - but what 'evidence' is out there that would convince someone that a pagan god like Diana is real, when that's closer to believing in Santa?
This is funny to me because my androgynous girl friend and her girlfriend said the same thing to me. I didn't disagree because my girlfriend gave me a black eye boxing, and she was only 5'5" and I was 5' 10" and she was trained by Mike Tyson. I let her win though. :liar: :pirate: :kidra: :lipsrsealed:
Quote from: stromboli on March 29, 2015, 11:32:34 PM
Sabrina is a Wiccan but no longer posts on here. I think I pissed her off or something. But I have great respect for her. And also Jason Harvestdancer, who has been on here longer than I have by a few years. We have disagreed on stuff, but I'd never disrespect his intelligence. I personally don't have a problem with Wicca because it involves a lot of natural healing, and as a person who spends as much time in nature as possible, I respect people who respect nature. I grew up with people who were much into natural healing and living with nature, so it has meaning for me.
I miss Sabrina.... :(
Quote from: Ace101 on March 29, 2015, 10:06:49 PMBasically how many people seriously believe its real, versus how many people do it 'just for fun'
It's impossible to tell. Honestly, I have a hard time believing that Christians and Muslims seriously believe what they say they do. But they seem to take it seriously. As do pagans and Wiccans. Without the benefit of mind-reading, it's impossible to know for sure.
Like Shiranu pointed out, the pre-Christian European religions are older and more elemental. No opulent cathedrals. No priestly overlords. Less of a focus on dogma and holy book and sin and torture - eternal or otherwise - and more on common traditions and the natural world. It actually has a huge selling point in that it lacks a lot of the really nasty stuff that people tend to loathe about organized religion - greed, bigotry, zealotry, violence, etc. So yeah, I can definitely see why someone would make the switch without necessarily being a rebellious teen (lol!)
Obviously, I don't agree with their beliefs. Theism of any sort is a deal-breaker with me and it's hard to look at belief in magic as anything other than a lamentably long-lived superstition.
Quote from: Ace101 on March 30, 2015, 12:03:41 AM
Just curious though - what evidence convinced you that it was true?
I mean I can see why a naive person might fall for "evidence" about Jesus' resurrection, and stuff like that - but what 'evidence' is out there that would convince someone that a pagan god like Diana is real, when that's closer to believing in Santa?
Why is believing in Diana (or any of the other Pagan gods) closer to believing in Santa than believing in any other god? They're all exactly the same distance. If anything, Christianity and its claims of being able to provide absolution are more Santa-like. In Paganism, you're expected to take responsibility for your mistakes and make them right, not just ask (and, funny thing, always get) forgiveness from Invisible Sky Daddy.
Anyway, it was a personal conversion experience that I now realize was a semi-hallucinatory state brought on by a combination of sleep deprivation and putting myself into a deep meditative state. It was far more intense and personally meaningful than anything I ever experienced as a Catholic. I also realize now that it was something I
wanted to experience, an excuse to finally leave the Catholic faith behind. So it's not surprising that it happened.
So I cannot properly call it
evidence as evidence is necessarily something that can be repeated and observed or experienced by others. It was, however, personally meaningful at the time. Eventually, with the distance of time, I was able to better analyze what had happened.
The sense I get from Wicca is that its ideas and practices are a modern concoction of disparate traditions, such as the practices (real and imagined) of ancient Germanic, Celtic and Egyptian religions, New Age philosophy (like Theosophy), with a smattering of Eastern and Native American ideas thrown in for good measure. Add to this some completely modern, novel ideas. Though all religions are made up, most major ones like Judaism and Hinduism have evolved organically over the long terms, with their original invention enshrouded in the mists of an ancient past. (It wouldn't surprise me if all the so-called "great" religions share a common source in some super-ancient tribal pantheon.)
Quote from: Atheon on March 30, 2015, 04:28:31 AM
The sense I get from Wicca is that its ideas and practices are a modern concoction of disparate traditions, such as the practices (real and imagined) of ancient Germanic, Celtic and Egyptian religions, New Age philosophy (like Theosophy), with a smattering of Eastern and Native American ideas thrown in for good measure. Add to this some completely modern, novel ideas. Though all religions are made up, most major ones like Judaism and Hinduism have evolved organically over the long terms, with their original invention enshrouded in the mists of an ancient past.
True enough, that. And modern Wicca has a significant tradition of DIY -- most of the modern Neopagans I knew when I was active were intellectually honest enough to admit that the practices were new, and that no one today really knows what pre-Christian worship looked like -- partly due to the lack of records, partly due to non-Christian traditions begin repressed by the church, and partly due to many of the Pagan celebrations being adapted into the Church calendar by way of co-opting local beliefs (and then an active campaign to kick over the traces).
Quote from: Atheon on March 30, 2015, 04:28:31 AM
(It wouldn't surprise me if all the so-called "great" religions share a common source in some super-ancient tribal pantheon.)
In the West and Middle East, that would be Zoroastrianism, whose influences can be seen in Judaism, Christianity and Islam. It's the great-granddad of monotheistic skyfather religions.
Wicca is a perfect religion for those who have a hunger to express their deep seated feelings of spirituality, especially if their spirituality revolves around vivid emotional experiences in the out doors. If you get all goose bumpy over powerful organ music and gothic architecture, you will prefer Catholicism.
As far as legitimacy, Catholicism, Fundamentalism, and Wicca are all precisely equal in that there is no evidence for any of their central tenants. None are more logically reasonable than the others.
Quote from: SGOS on March 30, 2015, 08:13:16 AM
Wicca is a perfect religion for those who have a hunger to express their deep seated feelings of spirituality, especially if their spirituality revolves around vivid emotional experiences in the out doors. If you get all goose bumpy over powerful organ music and gothic architecture, you will prefer Catholicism.
That's a good comparison -- the sense of awe I used to get as a believer presaged the real awe I feel looking through my telescope, or suddenly grasping a mathematical proof I never got before, or independently rediscovering some maths technique on my own.
And I have had Wiccans tell me that if they had to go to a Christian church, it would be a Catholic one specifically because of all the rite and ritual.
Anymore, though, the only thing that will get me in a church is an organ recital. Mmmm, Bach.
Quote from: SGOS on March 30, 2015, 08:13:16 AM
As far as legitimacy, Catholicism, Fundamentalism, and Wicca are all precisely equal in that there is no evidence for any of their central tenants. None are more logically reasonable than the others.
Logically reasonable, no. But in the main, I find Wiccans more personally reasonable than Christians since Wicca is generally a revealed religion rather than a proselytized one -- one is called to Wicca rather than converted to it. The phrase you'll hear a lot from Wiccans about how they came to their beliefs was that it was like 'coming home'.
Quote from: Ace101 on March 29, 2015, 10:03:31 PM
Deism doesn't contradict science - belief in magic and pagan rituals does, as do all theistic versions of god
Science works quite well, it does not need god(s). God(s) however have a habit of being abundant when science is not prevalent…..not a coincidence to you? Yeah….deism doesn't contradict science…because it's too damn busy running from it.
Quote from: Ace101 on March 29, 2015, 10:11:55 PM
Never heard of Wiccas getting into 'debates' trying to convince others of their faith, or trying to find 'proof' of their Gods' origins like creationists do.
Wicca isn't a religion that conquers by conversion; practicing Wiccans aren't expected to spread the faith. One comes to Wicca on their own, they are not 'convinced' into it by anyone other than themselves. It is a revealed religion, not a preached religion.