After seeing a little article about a TV show slight: http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2 ... s/1963677/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2013/03/04/mike-molly-alcoholism-arizona-tribes/1963677/)
I wonder. What is your take on the condition of the American Indian? Will they ever join the modern era or continue to allow themselves to wallow in their own self imposed exile?
You should get to Oklahoma. My little home town was dying. Main street had more vacancies than businesses. Then the Indians got gambling. Now they own everything. It's clean, rebuilt, and busy. Some Indians are doing just fine. AZ and NM are probably a different story. I remember doing a show in Gallup back in the day and seriously having to step over and around guys passed out on my way from the bus to the El Dorado to eat.
I have first hand experience with Native Americans from my youth and from later on in life. I lived with some Navajos and Utes in an apartment house, and grew up with Navajos that were adopted by Mormon families. Drinking is a very real problem with them and nothing to laugh about. I've witnessed first hand some very racist attitudes by white people against them, as well. My friend Frank Hosteen-Nez was forced into Mormonism, rebelled against it, became an alcoholic and eventually died in Vietnam.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/was ... ians_N.htm (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-08-28-alcohol-indians_N.htm)
12% of Indian deaths are due to alcoholism. They have the highest rate of alcoholism and drug abuse of any culture in this country.
Virtually every treaty made with them was broken, always by the government. they have been lied to and cheated in every way imaginable, not to mention made fun of and belittled. Thousands of Canadian Indians were forcibly removed from their families and "re-educated" in Christian schools. Hundreds of them died trying to run away back to their families. Aboriginals in Canada are still mistreated today.
This:
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Cana ... 536536.php (http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Canada-settles-abuse-case-that-spanned-2536536.php)
Self imposed exile? How about lack of opportunities? They try to retain their culture, at the same time being given little in the way of governmental help, and facing an essentially prejudicial attitude towards them. If they are pissed, they have a right to be.
Drive through Northern Arizona and Southern Utah. You will see many white crosses along the highways. They mark the spots where Indians have been killed hitch hiking at night, because they can't afford cars. The whole story is a grim one.
It seems to me it's a social status thing. You're raised in an environment where certain things are acceptable and others are not. You cling to not only the romantic conception of tradition, but the hang-ups that keep you down. Unless you're motivated by an unusual serial of events, or one humdinger, you'll probably fall right in line with the rest of the crowd, good or bad. In the case of the Native American, it seems to be a self perpetuating cycle of poverty, ignorance, depression and drowning your sorrows in alcohol. For a significant number anyway.
There was justification for this type of behavior 40 plus years ago, but I think we're getting beyond that now. Are the problems that the current generation faces today real and external, or are they an inherited attitude from previous generations? Do their behaviors generate animosity that otherwise wouldn't be there? Makes you wonder.
Good stuff. So why are "we" allowed to tell the blacks to "get over it"and expect them to march into the future and not say the same to the Indians? Let's say that the government does not take an active interest in helping the people, are they taking an active role in discriminating still? Is the governmenet actually working against them or is the attitude simply apathy and let the people decide for themselves what to do?
And, if we can for the moment, set aside their desire to retain their culural "identity" why do we pass on critizing their religious beliefs which may in part contribute to the problem?
Drunkenshoe said:
QuoteObviously, these people are still mistreated. And not to mentioned they are 'wiped out' as a race, because they will die out in near future. So when they are born and grow up in their society this is the only cultural inheritance these people grow up with. This is their inevitable identity, like you have your own as a result of your own society's history. Add that the lack of opportunities, mistreatment, prejudice there is nothing surprising about this people's current culture of failure, but I don't understand how can this situation be defined as clinging to 'romantic concept of tradition' or 'wallowing in their self imposed exile'.
And I am curious why they are called 'Native Americans'. Honestly, this must be very offensive to those people. The discovery of the continent where we call America(s) today is a political issue, a promoted part of white sovereign written history. The land and its people, its culture existed LONG before America(s) was 'discovered'. 'Americans' are the people who invaded their land, systematically killed, raped, infected, enslaved and wiped out their race and they are officially called as with the same name?
Well said. Native American is a term they applied to themselves back in the 70's, from some I knew then, but now I don't know how they refer to themselves. And they are dying out- to be considered as an authentic aboriginal American only requires 25% of genetic makeup. They have been interbred by Caucasians to that extent, just like finding a pure blood Hawaiian is very hard to do. They 'cling' to some traditional aspects like dancing and the drum circles and whatnot to try to retain some form of cultural identity. I have been to rendezvous in my Mountain man days where they performed, but the rank and file that I know are more likely to look for jobs in the main stream the same as everyone else.
I do not know of any comprehensive governmental program that really benefits them. Baddogma could probably tell us about the Lakota, since he knows some and lives near their reservation. The level of poverty and drug abuse there is stark. Reservations are not happy places. I know of two that I have visited (Wind River and the Ouray Reservation)and they are not bustling communities; usually agrarian in nature and not displaying anything like a uniform effort at growth. For the most part they have been shoved under the carpet.
It is worth your time if you can to visit Southern Utah, Colorado and Arizona to see the Fremont and Clovis cultures. Mesa Verde National Park (early Hopi) is remarkable, building built into the side of cliffs dating back centuries that are still largely intact. In Southern Utah in Blanding there is a museum built near a Fremont settlement with an amazing collection of pottery, arrow heads and so forth. Hovenweep and Grand Canyon also have old settlements that are still being rebuilt.
Our attempts at exterminating the Native American, followed by herding them unto reservations is an appalling specter of our past. Having said that, I think the reservation system is a big mistake. It may have made sense back in 1890, but not in the 21st Century. I guess we do it as an atonement for our past sins, or for some, I suppose it's still a way to keep the Indians out of our hair.
The most comparable group to the American aborigines are the Australian abos. There is a similar history in how they were treated , assimilated or not. Indians were hunted for scalps and bounty like we used to hunt for magpies back as a youth. Abos were also hunted for bounty. In both cases, a native people conquered and mistreated by their conquerors.
Isn't it obvious?
(//http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001524145/141323693_chakotay_answer_2_xlarge.jpeg)
Quote from: "Farroc"Isn't it obvious?
[ Image (//http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001524145/141323693_chakotay_answer_2_xlarge.jpeg) ]
You want to send them into space?
Quote from: "aitm"And, if we can for the moment, set aside their desire to retain their culural "identity" why do we pass on critizing their religious beliefs which may in part contribute to the problem?
For me.. One, they arn't forcing it on anyone.. (Same reason I leave Jewish religion alone} and Two because it is dying out all on its own and being replaced with christianity..
http://www.indians.org/articles/native- ... igion.html (http://www.indians.org/articles/native-american-religion.html)
QuoteNative American religion is hard to explain. This is because there were very many tribes the religious principles were passed down verbally. Many of these groups had their own beliefs though many of them were similar in the major aspects.
Native American religion tends to focus around nature. The landscape, animals, plants, and other environmental elements play a major role in the religion of Native Americans. Many of the legends passed down were an attempt to explain events that occurred in nature.
Native American religion includes a number of practices, ceremonies, and traditions. These ceremonies may be in honor of a number of events. The practice of taking certain hallucinogens was commonly used to gain greater insight or communicate with the gods. Ceremonies may include feasts, music, dances, and other performances.
Symbolism, especially with animals, is often a common part of Native American religion. Animals were used to represent certain ideas, characteristics, and spirits. Some Native American tribes used animals to tell the story of creation. Some creation stories, one by the Tlingit Indians, were centered on a raven.
In the past, Native American religion was not classified as a religion. Their beliefs were not understood and the complexity of their religion was not seen. This was partly the result of not having a written set of guidelines.
In the place of preachers and clergymen were shaman and medicine men. These men were sometimes said to communicate with the gods. They were wise and experienced and they enjoyed a higher level of status among their groups. They had important roles in decisions, ceremonies, and traditions.
Native American religion is something that is hard to define. To gain a full understanding you really need to grow up submersed in the beliefs, practices, and traditions of a tribe. It isn't the same as becoming a born-again Christian or converting to Judaism.
What I know of their religion is that it is more like spiritualism or Shamanism. They give reverence to the earth and believe that animals have spirits, such as the Navajo belief on "Coyote" (coy-o-tay for you city people) who is seen as the Trickster and was a spirit similar to Loki in Norse myth, there to bedevil them. I know that Coyotes were guilty of stealing food from them, which is where that may come from. I do not know of any formalized religion per se other than Aztec, Mayan and Incan sacrificial rites. The ceremonial dances are often depictions of fables, wherein dancers dress variously as eagles, foxes and so on to dance out a story of how some important event happened. I can tell you they are very connected to nature in their beliefs.
By the way, if any of you have read the Don Juan "Yaqui way of knowledge" books by Carlos Castaneda, they are crap. He made the whole thing up.
Maybe we could test out the Peyote sect.???? :shock:
THATS why I keep you around Doe...
Quote from: "mnmelt"Maybe we could test out the Peyote sect.???? :shock:
I have. good stuff.
Quote from: "stromboli"[spoil:o1msw9a4]http://www.indians.org/articles/native-american-religion.html
QuoteNative American rehttp://www.indians.org/articles/nativ ... igion.html (rehttp://www.indians.org/articles/native-american-religion.html)
QuoteNative American religion is hard to explain. This is because there were very many tribes the religious principles were passed down verbally. Many of these groups had their own beliefs though many of them were similar in the major aspects.
Native American religion tends to focus around nature. The landscape, animals, plants, and other environmental elements play a major role in the religion of Native Americans. Many of the legends passed down were an attempt to explain events that occurred in nature.
Native American religion includes a number of practices, ceremonies, and traditions. These ceremonies may be in honor of a number of events. The practice of taking certain hallucinogens was commonly used to gain greater insight or communicate with the gods. Ceremonies may include feasts, music, dances, and other performances.
Symbolism, especially with animals, is often a common part of Native American religion. Animals were used to represent certain ideas, characteristics, and spirits. Some Native American tribes used animals to tell the story of creation. Some creation stories, one by the Tlingit Indians, were centered on a raven.
In the past, Native American religion was not classified as a religion. Their beliefs were not understood and the complexity of their religion was not seen. This was partly the result of not having a written set of guidelines.
In the place of preachers and clergymen were shaman and medicine men. These men were sometimes said to communicate with the gods. They were wise and experienced and they enjoyed a higher level of status among their groups. They had important roles in decisions, ceremonies, and traditions.
Native American religion is something that is hard to define. To gain a full understanding you really need to grow up submersed in the beliefs, practices, and traditions of a tribe. It isn't the same as becoming a born-again Christian or converting to Judaism.
ligion is hard to explain. This is because there were very many tribes the religious principles were passed down verbally. Many of these groups had their own beliefs though many of them were similar in the major aspects.
Native American religion tends to focus around nature. The landscape, animals, plants, and other environmental elements play a major role in the religion of Native Americans. Many of the legends passed down were an attempt to explain events that occurred in nature.
Native American religion includes a number of practices, ceremonies, and traditions. These ceremonies may be in honor of a number of events. The practice of taking certain hallucinogens was commonly used to gain greater insight or communicate with the gods. Ceremonies may include feasts, music, dances, and other performances.
Symbolism, especially with animals, is often a common part of Native American religion. Animals were used to represent certain ideas, characteristics, and spirits. Some Native American tribes used animals to tell the story of creation. Some creation stories, one by the Tlingit Indians, were centered on a raven.
In the past, Native American religion was not classified as a religion. Their beliefs were not understood and the complexity of their religion was not seen. This was partly the result of not having a written set of guidelines.
In the place of preachers and clergymen were shaman and medicine men. These men were sometimes said to communicate with the gods. They were wise and experienced and they enjoyed a higher level of status among their groups. They had important roles in decisions, ceremonies, and traditions.
Native American religion is something that is hard to define. To gain a full understanding you really need to grow up submersed in the beliefs, practices, and traditions of a tribe. It isn't the same as becoming a born-again Christian or converting to Judaism.
[/spoil:o1msw9a4]
What I know of their religion is that it is more like spiritualism or Shamanism. They give reverence to the earth and believe that animals have spirits, such as the Navajo belief on "Coyote" (coy-o-tay for you city people) who is seen as the Trickster and was a spirit similar to Loki in Norse myth, there to bedevil them. I know that Coyotes were guilty of stealing food from them, which is where that may come from. I do not know of any formalized religion per se other than Aztec, Mayan and Incan sacrificial rites. The ceremonial dances are often depictions of fables, wherein dancers dress variously as eagles, foxes and so on to dance out a story of how some important event happened. I can tell you they are very connected to nature in their beliefs.
By the way, if any of you have read the Don Juan "Yaqui way of knowledge" books by Carlos Castaneda, they are crap. He made the whole thing up.
Animism is one of the steps known in the evolution of religion, given another hundred years or so, maybe the natives would have developed their own full deity.
Granted my limited knowledge is from questionable readings such as "Black Elk Speaks" , the delightful "American Indian Myths and Legends" and ones I can't even remember anymore, but I am nonetheless unwilling to grant immunity from criticism. How many years do we allow an individual to use the excuse no matter their history when the paths to a better life are not across the world or state of "river" but right in front of one? At some point in time, despite all the crimes committed by others, a person or a people must take responsibility for the path they continue on, especially knowing it is a useless path.
Quote from: "mnmelt"Maybe we could test out the Peyote sect.???? :shock:
Don Juan Matus is watching you.
(//http://www.ebirdseed.com/blog/Crow%20giving%20the%20eye.jpg)
Aitm..if you've ever been on a small reservation or even a big one you'll know opportunity is often only given to certain members of tribes and inside them are factions who do not agree on many things. Corruption is rampant, laws are not the same laws the rest of us live under. They have tribal laws and jurisdictions where certain groups are extremely oppressed while others live like kings because they control tribal laws, police and so on.. its an oppressive regime type situation that gets VERY little public attention and even less government intervention. Many live quite literally in the third world within the US and Candian borders..
Quote from: "stromboli"Thousands of Canadian Indians were forcibly removed from their families and "re-educated" in Christian schools. Hundreds of them died trying to run away back to their families.
This happened in America as well.
http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/po ... allery.htm (http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/poets/a_f/erdrich/boarding/gallery.htm)
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"Aitm..if you've ever been on a small reservation or even a big one you'll know opportunity is often only given to certain members of tribes and inside them are factions who do not agree on many things. Corruption is rampant, laws are not the same laws the rest of us live under. They have tribal laws and jurisdictions where certain groups are extremely oppressed while others live like kings because they control tribal laws, police and so on.. its an oppressive regime type situation that gets VERY little public attention and even less government intervention. Many live quite literally in the third world within the US and Candian borders..
I understand folks. But are we stating facts or just giving excuses? History is full of dead cultures, vanquished cultures, dying cultures, even enslaved cultures. History is full of cultures that are active war zones where people still cling to existence despite the daily possibility of being shot as they exit their house/hut/tent/cave. Active war zones. Posses's chasing people in the night and chopping off limbs, hunt parties raping children and killing the adults. What does the Amerian Indian have in comparison to complain about? Apathy? Indifference? Bigotry? Oppression?
At some time a people must be able to see what is to be seen. You wake to poverty and close the day in the same, same as the world over, except no one is actively trying to kill you. Passively maybe, but that remains a constant worldwide in almost every culture (there is always a culture within a culture where the "superior" has no issue if the "inferior" dies off) As a father, I would think, I would cherish my children enough to escape the mire, to fight to rise above, and I am sure many do that. But the culture is dying and it is dying because they refuse to adapt not because they cannot adapt.
It is fine, I suppose, in Paupau, to be content to live in the jungle as your anscestors did for a millenia, and I guess I have no qualms about the American Indian doing the same, but I see no reason to shed a tear when the path to obliteration is being steered by your own hand.
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"Aitm..if you've ever been on a small reservation or even a big one you'll know opportunity is often only given to certain members of tribes and inside them are factions who do not agree on many things. Corruption is rampant, laws are not the same laws the rest of us live under. They have tribal laws and jurisdictions where certain groups are extremely oppressed while others live like kings because they control tribal laws, police and so on.. its an oppressive regime type situation that gets VERY little public attention and even less government intervention. Many live quite literally in the third world within the US and Candian borders..
I'm sure some of the reservations are still pretty bad. But you know what? There's no law that says that can't leave, and many do just that. The reasons Indians stay on the rez are the same reasons that other poor Americans stay in their messed up communities. They stay because they can't afford to leave, or they'll miss their family and friends, or because they're afraid of leaving the community they know for one they don't. It's no different. As a poor white kid in a dying rural community I faced the same choice and joined the army.
American Indians have the same rights as any other American and even have an upper hand when it comes to things like applying for college, or a government job, or getting promoted in the military. Certain tribes still get a boost from from the government in one way or another. Oh, and let's not forget the monopoly on gambling.
Some tribes are doing quite well with the profits from casinos and they're investing in their community. Sure, there are some cases where outside investors take a big chunk of the profit, or the tribe is too big to see much of an individual profit, but there are some smaller tribes where most members don't have to work, and live quite well.
I think ultimately they will disappear. Every generation that moves more of its people away from the central culture will contribute. To me it is kind of sad, because their culture is so rich and has an enormous history. But I agree with aitm, I think it is inevitable.