http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/takingnote/2015/01/27/on-discrimination-the-mormon-church-gives-and-takes-away/?smid=tw-share&referrer=
QuoteThe Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints held a rare news conference in Salt Lake City today that is drawing headlines about a supposedly new, accommodating stand on gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender rights.
The Mormon church is now willing, news accounts says, to support anti-discrimination legislation in the realms of housing and employment. In return, all the Mormons want are laws that “protect religious freedom.â€
We already have that. It’s called the Bill of Rights. So what is the church really after?
The news conference, said D. Todd Cristofferson, one of the 12 apostles of the church, was held to raise concerns about “the increasing tensions and polarization between advocates of religious freedom on the one hand and advocates of gay rights on the other.†Another apostle, Jeffrey R. Holland, said church leaders were calling for “laws that protect faith communities and individuals†against unfair treatment.
That’s fake “war on religion†speak. What they want is legal permission to use their religion as an excuse to discriminate.
The Associated Press explained: “Mormon leaders still want to hire and fire workers based not only on religious beliefs, but also on behavior standards known as honor codes that require gays and lesbians to remain celibate or marry someone of the opposite sex. The church also wants legal protections for religious objectors who work in government and health care, such as a physician who refuses to perform an abortion, or provide artificial insemination for a lesbian couple.â€
Substitute the word “black†or “Jewish†or “Catholic†or, say, “Mormon†for LGBT in these statements, and everyone would be outraged.
Or, as Sarah Warbelow, legal director of the Human Rights Campaign, an advocacy group for LGBT rights, put it: “All Americans should have the right to be employed, receive housing and services in environments free of discrimination. We await the day the church embraces that fully, without any exceptions or exemptions.â€
The church’s “new†position looks like an outgrowth of the Supreme Court’s Hobby Lobby ruling, in which a 5-4 majority said the owner of a closely held business could refuse to comply with a federal law (in that case, the Affordable Care Act) on the basis of his personal religious views.
Apparently the news conference today was the product of five years’ behind-the-scenes negotiations. Five years for this?
The church from top to bottom is a multi billion dollar corporation with entities in many states, but mostly Utah and California. Mormon legislatures dominate Utah and Idaho. The church employs many thousands of people. What the church is basically saying is they have the right for religious reasons (a la Hobby Lobby)to not hire anyone who doesn't meet their standards, which is whatever they deem them to be; i.e. "religious freedom." Sort of, "Oh we love LGBT people and want to be friends but you can't work for us, come into our churches, do temple work or get married."
Can I in turn discriminate them?
It's a religious position, non-profit, and I would be happy as long as I can do the same to them :fU:
Seriously though, "Persecution" and "War on Religion" is bullshit.
Reminds me of the old "Intelligent Design" schlick posing as anything other than Christian Creationism woo woo.
I only see this as an attempt to move goal posts from what is really going on, discrimination based on who they share beds with "religious freedom". Well fuck your religious freedom sensibilities.
Quote from: Sal1981 on January 28, 2015, 05:18:51 AM
Reminds me of the old "Intelligent Design" schlick posing as anything other than Christian Creationism woo woo.
I only see this as an attempt to move goal posts from what is really going on, discrimination based on who they share beds with "religious freedom". Well fuck your religious freedom sensibilities.
The LDS church has been moving goalposts from day one. This is what turned me off to the church when I started studying it. The current Doctrine and Covenants, a book of canonized revelations and commandments, began as the Book of Commandments that had a stern declaration against polygamy. Strangely, the commandment disappeared and the updated version had doctrine that not only allowed polygamy but commanded it. My my.
Quote from: stromboli on January 27, 2015, 08:16:43 PM
http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/takingnote/2015/01/27/on-discrimination-the-mormon-church-gives-and-takes-away/?smid=tw-share&referrer=
What the church is basically saying is they have the right for religious reasons (a la Hobby Lobby)to not hire anyone who doesn't meet their standards, which is whatever they deem them to be; i.e. "religious freedom."
They are offended that they cannot control the lives of others. This new bandwagon advocating the persecution of others in the name of religious freedom is a joke. It's not really a joke. It's more like irony, which often tends to be a cruel joke. It's discrimination, pure and simple, although I suspect they can't see that. I know a guy that insists persecution against gays is not persecution. To him, it's just the "right thing to do and his beliefs are completely justified." I assume his half baked leaps to this conclusion are typical. Prejudice among groups is seldom seen as prejudice within that group. It's just the "status quo and the way things are meant to be." But the reasons for it being "meant to be" are usually a mystery and left unspoken.
Conservative religion in the USA is a disease that needs to be eradicated like ISIS. We need to put all the radicals on a desert Island and let them fight it out until only one is standing, then shoot him, or her. :eek: :eek: :madu: :dance:
Yeah. good luck with that. the good news is the church is bleeding at the seams- there is no solid number of how many people have left the church, but 2 of the exmo forums I frequent each have over 10,000 members. This serve only to confirm for the righteous what they already felt and further alienates everybody else. The only concern from my standpoint is that the LGBT community in Utah, Idaho and elsewhere have to look for employment with companies that aren't affiliated religiously.
Quote from: stromboli on January 29, 2015, 12:28:15 PM
Yeah. good luck with that. the good news is the church is bleeding at the seams- there is no solid number of how many people have left the church, but 2 of the exmo forums I frequent each have over 10,000 members. This serve only to confirm for the righteous what they already felt and further alienates everybody else. The only concern from my standpoint is that the LGBT community in Utah, Idaho and elsewhere have to look for employment with companies that aren't affiliated religiously.
They can start here:
http://www.hrc.org/resources/entry/lgbt-equality-at-the-fortune-500
Or they can choose the innumerable startups. Companies are starting to realize that being anti lgbt will not bode well for them.
Cool. Right now the solar industry is hiring more than any other power related industry. A glimmer of hope, at least.
Fixed for ya. :p
Quote from: Solitary on January 29, 2015, 11:48:23 AM
Conservative religion in the USA world is a disease that needs to be eradicated like ISIS. We need to put all the radicals on a desert Island planet in another galaxy, take the technology back after delivering them there, they can't build it by themselves anyway fight it out until only one is standing, then shoot him, or her. and don't even bother to watch them killing each other :eek: :eek: :madu: :dance:
:biggrin2: Thanks! I suggest they be sent to Kolob.
Imho, as repulsive as it is, they have the right to believe in their bigotry, however that doesn't mean they have the right to act on it.
Maybe them will have a "revelation" about this someday like they did about African Americans.
The church has some serious problems because events keep getting in the way of being an inherently bigoted organization. LGBT issues, women holding the priesthood, women's rights in general- shit keeps catching up to them. The 1978 "revelation" was so politically motivated it stank. For them to have a revelation after that on something like the LGBT issue would stink even worse, in an order of magnitudes. This is what you get when you have a cult run by 80 year old mostly white men. You know its bad when they are forced to recognize the historical faux pas of their prophets, and in the case of Brigham Young, disavowing blatantly racist statements he made as doctrinal by saying they were opinions, and wrong.
Quote from: Solitary on January 29, 2015, 11:48:23 AM
Conservative religion in the USA is a disease that needs to be eradicated like ISIS. We need to put all the radicals on a desert Island and let them fight it out until only one is standing, then shoot him, or her. :eek: :eek: :madu: :dance:
That's the biggest problem actually, these so-called radicals, they are not the radicals. The real radicals are the moderates, they are the ones not practicing their religion in a fashion that aligns with their holy books.
Quote from: stromboli on April 22, 2015, 03:10:53 PM
You know its bad when they are forced to recognize the historical faux pas of their prophets, and in the case of Brigham Young, disavowing blatantly racist statements he made as doctrinal by saying they were opinions, and wrong.
Yeah, like this one:
“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so. The nations of the earth have transgressed every law that God has given, they have changed the ordinances and broken every covenant made with the fathers, and they are like a hungry man that dreameth that he eateth, and he awaketh and behold he is empty.â€
Brigham Young (1801 -1877)
"...death on the spot"!? Good thing they don't really believe such disgusting drivel.
I was a member when the revelation happened. A few years later I lived in a rural community that was whiter than Sweden, and we had a guest entertainer who was black with a Polynesian wife. You have never seen so many tight lipped people in one room, ever. I had brother in law that left the church when it happened, but rejoined later. It was a big sea change to say the least.
There's an old Interview with Barbara walters and Donnie and Marie , Barbara asks about it, Donny confirms it's true, but doesn't know why.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPWIEfmPYxo
According to the link it was in 1978.. I wonder if this was a big factor ?
Mormon Church is a fringe religion. They should be afforded any and all 'fringe religion' benefits available to them. RE: Scientology. we give those wierdos a break, don't we? Why not Mormons?
Marginalize, yes. Discriminate? Eh,, WTF,,, sure! No prob..,,, :smile2:
all I got from that article is, "We're bigots. We hate freedom because we believe in a stupid book. Did you know Jesus visited Missouri?"
Quote from: SkyChief on April 23, 2015, 11:41:47 PM
Mormon Church is a fringe religion. They should be afforded any and all 'fringe religion' benefits available to them. RE: Scientology. we give those wierdos a break, don't we? Why not Mormons?
Marginalize, yes. Discriminate? Eh,, WTF,,, sure! No prob..,,, :smile2:
You gotta admit. Scientology and Mormonism have really cool storylines going for them. They're fantastic works of fiction!
Or would be, if they were regarded as the fiction they are.
Wait, if it's good enough for Donny and Marie it's good enough for. ..uhhhhh... Dumbasses? Oh! I got it! MITTENS!