Is it possible for god (or any being) to have free will AND omniscience. Do these two qualities create a paradox?
Luke Skywalker: "As my father used to say, 'What?'"
Well, I'm wondering if these two qualities create a paradox. You see, it seems to me that if a being has omniscience, that that would entail that they know all of the actions they will take in the future which would imply that they are subject to fate, which would in turn mean that they cannot have free will.
I'd really like to discuss this with an atheist here who is well versed in philosophy. Is there anyone here in the community that you guys might suggest I reach out to?
:popcorn:
Quote from: Milleby on January 25, 2015, 05:32:20 PM
Is it possible for god (or any being) to have free will AND omniscience. Do these two qualities create a paradox?
Here is a far more interesting paradox. Can something that has always existed, have knowledge of things that have yet to exist, without knowledge that they could exist or what they are, or what they do, until he creates it, knowing what he is creating for the very reason he is creating it, yet not knowing what it is because it never existed prior to him creating it?
Sure, I'd love to discuss that paradox too at some point, but for the time being I'd like to focus on the one that I've currently put forth as I'm thinking of using it in an essay I have to write and I want to make sure that the argument holds up well. At some point in this discussion I'd like to be able to put it into a syllogistic format: Premise 1, Premise 2, Premise 3... And get a good feel for any objections one might raise to the argument.
In fact, Russell Glasser wrote an interesting article about what I'm talking about here: http://kazimskorner.blogspot.com/2007/09/paradox-of-omniscience-and-free-will.html
What do you guys think of it? I'm wondering what potential objections an apologist might raise to this argument and how one might respond to them. I imagine that such arguments might be similar in nature to those posted here:
http://philosophiesofmen.blogspot.com/2010/12/omniscience-free-will-paradox.html
This is an apologetic article that addresses a slightly different paradox - that of god's omniscience and MAN'S free will.
What do you guys think?
It that case I would say, of course not. Gods don't exist.
Quote from: Milleby on January 25, 2015, 05:32:20 PM
Is it possible for god (or any being) to have free will AND omniscience. Do these two qualities create a paradox?
In one word: no.
I don't have a fancy syllogism for it, but the rundown is that if you're omniscient, you will also know, beforehand, what choices you will make, as well as any alterations you will make to your present choice-making (which means this being will know before it changes its mind about a choice, what that change will be), this renders any idea of free will useless/incompatible with omniscience.
Besides, free will & omniscience apart from one another are internally inconsistent.
Quote from: Sal1981 on January 25, 2015, 09:31:31 PM
In one word: no.
I don't have a fancy syllogism for it, but the rundown is that if you're omniscient, you will also know, beforehand, what choices you will make, as well as any alterations you will make to your present choice-making (which means this being will know before it changes its mind about a choice, what that change will be), this renders any idea of free will useless/incompatible with omniscience.
Besides, free will & omniscience apart from one another are internally inconsistent.
True dat. The babble states that ole god was disappointed that his experiment wasn't working and he drowned everyone instead of just making better humans in the first place…proof he is not omniscient. The babble also states old god was disappointed in David when he banged Bathsheba and cursed the kid…again another sign of non-omniscience. The babble is full of shit where ole god is proven to be incompetent, signs that little minds wrote little words to make big impression of littler minds.
Hmmm... I guess for my purposes it doesn't matter either way, but, let me ask, is anyone aware of Bible passages that would suggest that god has free will?
There's all kinds of stuff bullshit in the bible pointing to god's omniscience, but finding something that suggests he has free will is a bit tougher, it doesn't seem to directly state that. Are there any Bible passages that you guys are aware of where god does something that would REQUIRE him to have free will?
In fact, from the standpoint of the christian worldview, what would the implications of god NOT having free will be?
Wouldn't that mean that we're more free than god? What other implications do you guys see in this?
An omniscient god would know what actions it would take at any time in the future, so said god would not be able to have free will. If said god did something outside of what it knew it would do, then said god is not omniscient.
Besides, this also runs into a problem of if omniscience itself is a coherent idea and not incoherent garbage.
Quote from: Milleby on January 25, 2015, 10:37:00 PM
Hmmm... I guess for my purposes it doesn't matter either way, but, let me ask, is anyone aware of Bible passages that would suggest that god has free will?
There's all kinds of stuff bullshit in the bible pointing to god's omniscience, but finding something that suggests he has free will is a bit tougher, it doesn't seem to directly state that. Are there any Bible passages that you guys are aware of where god does something that would REQUIRE him to have free will?
google is your friend.
http://www.openbible.info/topics/omniscience
http://www.openbible.info/topics/free_will
They don't use "omniscience" and "free will" phrasing specifically, but both are hinted at.
This topic comes up often. I don't know why, since it's irrelevant. There is no reason to attribute characteristics like personality traits, hair color, or omniscience to something that offers no evidence for it's existence. It's jumping the gun, isn't it?
I suppose you can say "There is something in the universe that knows everything that will happen." But there is no foundation for this claim. It is no more valid than saying "There is nothing in the universe that knows everything that will happen."
a. If God knows everything, we have no free will - and he lies when he tells us that we have it
b. If we have free will, God does not know everything - he is not God
Every action we take, no matter how errant it seems to us, is accounted for and predicted. We can't possibly have free will if there is no unaccounted variable.
http://www.godwouldbeanatheist.com/2problem/208omni.htm
Quote from: Milleby on January 25, 2015, 06:20:20 PM
Well, I'm wondering if these two qualities create a paradox. You see, it seems to me that if a being has omniscience, that that would entail that they know all of the actions they will take in the future which would imply that they are subject to fate, which would in turn mean that they cannot have free will.
I prefer the usual argument of free will being the reason why god doesn't provide evidence for it's existence because that would interfere with our free will.
That is, if god gave us evidence for its existence, we would have no choice but to believe.
But by not providing evidence, we have no choice but to not believe.
Either way, god interferes with free will. So the issue is stupid.
Quote from: Milleby on January 25, 2015, 05:32:20 PM
Is it possible for god (or any being) to have free will AND omniscience.
No. Because omniscience isn't possible.
Quote from: Milleby on January 25, 2015, 05:32:20 PM
Do these two qualities create a paradox?
No. Because the second quality is a nonsense.
What does "free will" mean? The ability to act randomly without regard to your circumstances, so that you send shockwaves through causality? If this is what free will means, then I can become free only by adhering to the decisions of a Magic 8-ball.
I think free will means the capacity for one's actions to express one's nature in response to one's circumstances. So if I'm a prick, I get to freely honk my horn all I want, even when the guy in front of me is clearly waiting for a pedestrian to cross. Now, that doesn't mean that given my brain chemistry at that moment, there was a philosophical possibility that I might not honk my horn. That's because as one person, I have one nature, and so a full expression of that nature given circumstances X must be Y.
In other words, free will just means you get to act like what you are, not that you are magically free from the flow of causality through time. So in, for example, God's case, God might know all that there is to know, and act according to His nature-- as He already knew He would.
Quote from: Milleby on January 25, 2015, 05:32:20 PM
Is it possible for god (or any being) to have free will AND omniscience. Do these two qualities create a paradox?
Omniscience is incompatible with freewill and prayer. Short. Sweet. End of story.
IMHO, Free Will isn't compatible with reality for any being, so the rest of the question becomes moot.
Quote from: bennyboy on April 09, 2015, 12:55:27 AM
What does "free will" mean? The ability to act randomly without regard to your circumstances, so that you send shockwaves through causality? If this is what free will means, then I can become free only by adhering to the decisions of a Magic 8-ball.
I think free will means the capacity for one's actions to express one's nature in response to one's circumstances. So if I'm a prick, I get to freely honk my horn all I want, even when the guy in front of me is clearly waiting for a pedestrian to cross. Now, that doesn't mean that given my brain chemistry at that moment, there was a philosophical possibility that I might not honk my horn. That's because as one person, I have one nature, and so a full expression of that nature given circumstances X must be Y.
In other words, free will just means you get to act like what you are, not that you are magically free from the flow of causality through time. So in, for example, God's case, God might know all that there is to know, and act according to His nature-- as He already knew He would.
I kind of agree (I understand you are using the compatabalist term for free will here), but I hate redefining the term to mean, basically, NOT free at all but simply "free" to do what you were already bound to do anyway. That is such a distortion of what most people mean when they say it, and it basically changes the term to mean the opposite of liberalist free will. Compatabalists are just redefining free will to mean determined, basically, and then claiming free will exists. It makes no sense to me no matter now much I learn about it, and I've tried hard to educate myself on this topic.
The universe is deterministic, free will is an illusion that was necessary from an evolutionary standpoint in order to make sense of the world around us. Our brains create tons and tons of illusions every day to help us function. That's basically what it boils down to, I think.
Quote from: Milleby on January 25, 2015, 05:32:20 PM
Is it possible for god (or any being) to have free will AND omniscience. Do these two qualities create a paradox?
Hi Milleby!
I've had this pointed out to me before, at
Incompatible Properties Arguments - A Survey (https://www.pdcnet.org/philo/content/philo_1998_0001_0002_0049_0060) - Theodore Drange. (look at number 9)
It would depend on the extent of omniscience of the deity in question, so that possible loopholes in the argument could be used to sidestep the paradox. As with any politician "what did he know and when did he know it" is one way to spin the thing. But if said god is considered to be
absolutely omniscient, then its foreknowledge of its future actions should indeed cancel any notion of freedom that could apply to it.
Such a god could not exist, and so does not exist.
Ugh. The 'free will' debate always triggers my "See, this is why I hate philosophy" reaction, even though I don't really hate philosophy.
Within the limits set by physical reality, civil society, and my own psychological limitations, I have sufficient free will to be satisfied that I am a free-willed being. If there is an omniscient entity directing everything, it would have to be of such an order of complexity that a) we couldn't begin to understand the least part of it and b) would have to be so invasively everywhere that it should be impossible not to detect.
And if this is all a VR simulation, I wanna have a word with the programmer. Several words, actually. Many of them four-lettered.
There is no such thing as omniscience, it's a convenience created by religious minded to use to make their sky daddy seem all powerful and watchful. Even the highest level of computer surveillance by governments isn't omniscient, since people work ways around such things.
Free will is one of those things that has to be fairly well defined if two people are going to have a meaningful discussion about it. For me it simply means that I am able to make a fairly large range of decisions on my own. I fully understand that the chemical makeup of my body figures deeply into what decisions I can really make on my own. And the wiring of my brain puts similar constraints on my decision making as well. But within those confines--plus the social and cultural society I find myself operating in also puts confines on those decisions. Still, I can choose from a wide range of decisions to make, especially about my attitude about things. And what my attitude is has a huge bearing on how I view a subject and how I feel about a subject. So, yeah, I do have free will. Sort of. :)
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 09, 2015, 08:25:28 PM
Free will is one of those things that has to be fairly well defined if two people are going to have a meaningful discussion about it. For me it simply means that I am able to make a fairly large range of decisions on my own. I fully understand that the chemical makeup of my body figures deeply into what decisions I can really make on my own. And the wiring of my brain puts similar constraints on my decision making as well. But within those confines--plus the social and cultural society I find myself operating in also puts confines on those decisions. Still, I can choose from a wide range of decisions to make, especially about my attitude about things. And what my attitude is has a huge bearing on how I view a subject and how I feel about a subject. So, yeah, I do have free will. Sort of. :)
I agree with all of this. The definition of free will can be tweaked to support one position or the other. Frankly, I easily get lost in the debate (as in, "What are these people talking about?") I mean lost to the point where it becomes incomprehensible. I keep wondering what's going over my head? Since I don't understand it, I just ignore it, throw out reasoning, and say to myself, "If I can choose chocolate ice cream, even though I prefer vanilla, then I've got free will." I may not be able to play basketball for the Lakers, but I can still send in a letter of application.
At that point, someone says, "Well that's not we mean by free will," but then I just put my hands over my ears and start shouting gibberish really loud.
Quote from: SGOS on April 09, 2015, 08:51:32 PM
I agree with all of this. The definition of free will can be tweaked to support one position or the other. Frankly, I easily get lost in the debate (as in, "What are these people talking about?") I mean lost to the point where it becomes incomprehensible. I keep wondering what's going over my head? Since I don't understand it, I just ignore it, throw out reasoning, and say to myself, "If I can choose chocolate ice cream, even though I prefer vanilla, then I've got free will." I may not be able to play basketball for the Lakers, but I can still send in a letter of application.
At that point, someone says, "Well that's not we mean by free will," but then I just put my hands over my ears and start shouting gibberish really loud.
You and I are on the same page here. Especially about the ice cream! And I've learned that there are no bad choices in ice cream--some just better than others and that can and does change from time to time. And as long as I'm free to choose when and what kind of ice cream, then I have free will.