I am not making this post because I plan to die!
Now with that out of the way, I think many people need to be more open minded about the idea of suicide, since death in of itself is a mystery we should be glad that other people find out what's on the other side.
If ghosts are real, then I'll be able to amuse myself be toying with those still clinging onto their lives.
If there really is a god, and he sends you to hell: Hey, eternity is a long time to get to know Darwin right?
If purgatory is real, then you merely get dealt a fist in your face based on your karma.
If heaven is real, then that's the best scenario: And the fanatics would be right for once!
If you live on into another life, why not keep dying until you get a better situation?
Finally, If death truly just another end: This would mean the end of our lives. We simply rest in an eternal state of repose where not even our dreams can disturb us.
"Life isn't fair," and people who agree should have every right to choose death over life, because all it means that a evolutionarily incompetent person is jumping back into the dirt where cesspools of others have returned to.
There are billions of people who have already taken the plunge, so to speak. Not a peep. Either it's the end or it's not something where you can come back and visit.
It's fairly poetic to call it an "eternal state of repose" but it's pretty difficult to accurately call it that in the more advanced stages of decay. If the mind is the brain, then it's safe to say that's out the window pretty early on.
And finally, I'm not at all familiar with the term "evolutionary incompetent person" (darwin award winner?)
Quote from: dtq123 on December 29, 2014, 11:26:53 PM
"Life isn't fair," and people who agree should have every right to choose death over life,
They already do have the right.
meh, suicide is not so bad, changing your mind however, could be problematic after the fact.
Quote from: Hydra009 on December 30, 2014, 12:12:28 AM
I'm not at all familiar with the term "evolutionary incompetent person" (Darwin award winner?)
An evolutionary incompetent person is someone who is not able to function well according to natural selection. Genes or environments that allow an individual to desire suicide is not good for passing on to the next generation.
Quote from: Johan on December 30, 2014, 06:15:53 AM
They already do have the right.
Physician assisted suicide is illegal in many places in the USA (46 states as I recall), so at least there a couple places on this blue dot that doesn't allow it.
Quote from: aitm on December 30, 2014, 11:08:35 AM
changing your mind however, could be problematic after the fact.
What would be wrong with changing your mind? The only one that would pose a problem would be hell, and our minds develop resistances to pain over time as long as it is constant, which an eternity would give burning in hell. Meeting Darwin and (Soon) James Randi would be nice, and we would have fun talking about our experiences, and more people would come to join our party. :eyes:
Quote from: dtq123 on December 30, 2014, 01:01:11 PMAn evolutionary incompetent person is someone who is not able to function well according to natural selection.
Which would include anyone who either can't or chooses not to have kids, as well as those who die early in life from anything, their fault or not. Seems like a pretty strange term to label people with.
QuoteGenes or environments that allow an individual to desire suicide is not good for passing on to the next generation.
Environments are not hereditary, which is yet another reason why I would reexamine the term "evolutionary incompetent person".
I mean.... it's definitely upsetting for the people that are affected by it... the person's family and friends that love him/her even if they aren't aware of it.... And it's upsetting that someone would feel the need to end their own life.... (and upsetting is not even strong enough of a word)
But it's more complicated than saying it's bad or good... It definitely feels bad for the people that knows and knows of the person though... I don't know too much other than that though. I don't understand why anyone would ever want to end their life because I have never thought of ending my own.... even in my darkest of times, I always came out of the other end with the bad times behind me... and I've been in some pretty dark times... crippling depression. And I can't even say it's because I don't believe in an afterlife that I never thought of ending my own life to "make it better" or "end the suffering" because there are many atheists and people that don't believe in afterlife that have ended their own lives... really sad to think about.
There are laws on the books that make suicide illegal, but impossible to enforce. More to the point through its attempted suicide that is more illegal, but even that is seldom enforced because there really is no point in punishing someone who is in such despair that they should want to die at their own hand.
For some years I was often suicidal, but killing one's self isn't as easy as most think.
Overdoses are often difficult because of the controls of drugs and poisons are much more difficult to get ahold of. At 19 I swallowed arsenic trying to end my life and spent a month in the hospital. I've tried other poisons, overdoses, hanging, smashing cars and even sat with a loaded gun and could not pull the trigger out of fear of missing and ending up permanently fucked up still alive.
It wasn't until one night I was about to plunge $200 worth of high grade heroin into myself that I had an epiphany of sorts and could see everyone I knew who loved me crying and could quite literally feel the pain they might feel. That was a turning point for me when I knew that I had to find a way to put my life back in order and I did.
I perfectly understand why people want to stop living, but also know that the moment people want to die is typically the darkest and if they can hang on and live they can find a way out of such despair if they can just think clearly enough.
There are always exceptions to this such as the elderly in terminal pain with nobody who cares and so on, but over a spouse or significant other there are always other fish in the sea and financial trouble is but a temporary problem that can always be solved or even ignored once you realize a life in poverty isn't near as bad as a life in pain or of never ending torment. Hell, most of the earths population lives in dire poverty and gets by one way or another.
Quote from: dtq123 on December 29, 2014, 11:26:53 PM
I am not making this post because I plan to die!
Now with that out of the way, I think many people need to be more open minded about the idea of suicide, since death in of itself is a mystery we should be glad that other people find out what's on the other side.
The main reason I am against suicide is that the majority of people that commit suicide are not mentally stable. If you are mentally stable and old enough to understand, then I have no issue with someone choosing the path of suicide.
Quote from: dtq123 on December 30, 2014, 01:01:11 PM
Physician assisted suicide is illegal in many places in the USA (46 states as I recall), so at least there a couple places on this blue dot that doesn't allow it.
Everyone has the right to break the law. There are consequences for getting caught, sure. But making it illegal sure as shit doesn't stop thousands of people from offing themselves quite successfully every year.
Life is a disease with momentary joy and pleasure, the symptoms are aging health problems and pain, interrupted by sleep, unconsciousness, and the cure is death. And hell is other people. Kidding, just kidding, I've never met a person I didn't like and admire in some way. This fucking snow is giving me seizures. :pai: :flowers: :eek: :kidra: :kiss: :cool: :biggrin2:
Back to the subject: Suicide is dependent on how much pain and suffering one can take. As to it hurting others, it will happen anyway, and the pain they suffer is just sooner. And if they get a big reward, or don't like the person, it is great. It's a personal thing, and I have seen many patients suffer way beyond bearable because they feel guilty for causing other loved ones pain if they pull the plug, so-to-speak. People dying need to be told it is OK to die. Life has infinite worth when bearable, but it is not sacred! Solitary
Quote from: PickelledEggs on December 30, 2014, 04:17:04 PM
I mean.... it's definitely upsetting for the people that are affected by it... the person's family and friends that love him/her even if they aren't aware of it.... And it's upsetting that someone would feel the need to end their own life.... (and upsetting is not even strong enough of a word)
But it's more complicated than saying it's bad or good... It definitely feels bad for the people that knows and knows of the person though... I don't know too much other than that though. I don't understand why anyone would ever want to end their life because I have never thought of ending my own.... even in my darkest of times, I always came out of the other end with the bad times behind me... and I've been in some pretty dark times... crippling depression. And I can't even say it's because I don't believe in an afterlife that I never thought of ending my own life to "make it better" or "end the suffering" because there are many atheists and people that don't believe in afterlife that have ended their own lives... really sad to think about.
Well, Pickles, must totally disagree. My dad committed suicide. And I cried like a baby--and was angry as hell at the same time. Why angry? He was in the last stages of emphysema and could only move with great effort. He had no alternative but to put pipe from the car exhaust into the passenger compartment, start the car, let it idle and then die. Was I angry at him? No--at our wonderful govt. that makes dying with dignity impossible in so many cases. He felt he had no choice. And he really didn't. And I cried the hardest because he was reduced to this to end his life. A few extra months of pain for him would not have made his passing any easier for me. He should have ended his life months earlier--and would have if he had had the chance.
Suicide is a personal choice and should be treated that way.
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 30, 2014, 10:32:28 PM
Well, Pickles, must totally disagree. My dad committed suicide. And I cried like a baby--and was angry as hell at the same time. Why angry? He was in the last stages of emphysema and could only move with great effort. He had no alternative but to put pipe from the car exhaust into the passenger compartment, start the car, let it idle and then die. Was I angry at him? No--at our wonderful govt. that makes dying with dignity impossible in so many cases. He felt he had no choice. And he really didn't. And I cried the hardest because he was reduced to this to end his life. A few extra months of pain for him would not have made his passing any easier for me. He should have ended his life months earlier--and would have if he had had the chance.
Suicide is a personal choice and should be treated that way.
:(
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 30, 2014, 10:32:28 PM
Our wonderful govt. that makes dying with dignity impossible in so many cases.
Suicide is a personal choice and should be treated that way.
Playing devil's advocate here, if suicide an honorable way to die, then why do many people hold on to their lives when they reach a terminal state?
It's kind of weird to have people not want end their own lives, but stay alive and suffer further.
Quote from: Hydra009 on December 30, 2014, 02:01:21 PM
Which would include anyone who either can't or chooses not to have kids, as well as those who die early in life from anything, their fault or not. Seems like a pretty strange term to label people with.
Environments are not hereditary, which is yet another reason why I would reexamine the term "evolutionary incompetent person".
Point taken :doh:
To an extent I am right, but as a social species we tend to benefit more from those who are alive to help us. And trashing the environment to gives future humans a worse place to live, where as if we take care of it then the next generation has a head start in life.
Quote from: dtq123 on December 31, 2014, 12:15:30 AMPlaying devil's advocate here, if suicide an honorable way to die, then why do many people hold on to their lives when they reach a terminal state?
Just guessing here, but it's because they
think hope that they'll eventually recover and also because family members push them to hang on.
Quote from: dtq123 on December 31, 2014, 12:15:30 AM
Playing devil's advocate here, if suicide an honorable way to die, then why do many people hold on to their lives when they reach a terminal state?
It's kind of weird to have people not want end their own lives, but stay alive and suffer further.
That is not 'weird' at all. There are a myriad reasons why someone would cling to life. They may harbor hope (whether it be realistic or not) they will get better. They may have been brainwashed into believing that if they don't cling to life they will not get to heaven. Those that cling to life 'want' to for whatever reason. There are those who are tired of clinging to life and want to end it. Why would that not be 'honorable'? Honor should have no part in this. In many societies it is the 'honorable' thing to commit suicide (WWII Japanese military for example--jihad bombers for another); but for me death is death. Honor will get you nothing. When you die you die--what others think of that is up to them.
From another angle, why do we put our pets to sleep as apposed to letting them live to the bitter end, suffering and in pain? For me the moral thing (and honorable thing) is to end my furry child's life when there is little to no hope of recovery. I visited this issue up close and personal just last week (Merry Christmas to me) and had to put to sleep one of my beautiful little dogs whom I had counted on living another 5 years. A brain tumor made that impossible--we could have done exrays and stuff like that to pinpoint what the exact problem was--but here suffering and pain was so great that that was not the right thing for her. So instead of trying to make me fell better, I had to look at it from her angle. She had lived a full life and even though she will be very deeply missed, allowing her to suffer was not an option. In many cases, suicide is honorable; at least in my world view.
It is really nobodies business, other than mine, what I do with my life or when it ends. Yes, I effect others; but I am the one feeling whatever feelings I have--and to live with pain and no hope of recovery is not living. My moral values say I have the right to end my life when I deem it necessary.
I've always found it ironic that its considered more "noble" to be killed then commit suicide, yet its less noble to get fired from a job, then to quit. Why is that?
Quote from: MagetheEntertainer on January 10, 2015, 09:55:34 PM
Yet it's less noble to get fired from a job, then to quit. Why is that?
Are you saying that people would rather be fired? I can't tell.
Anyway, I'd say otherwise.
Leaving is faster that being fired, and I don't want to have to say I got kicked out of a company for incompetence.
All the emotional baggage aside - committing suicide is frowned upon mostly for all the debt and paperwork that is left behind. Few, if any life insurance will cover you if you commit suicide.
Personally, I think that if a middle ground could be met to address the financial issues, then suicide would be more likely to be accepted in society - particularly American society. For instance, if you are diagnosed with a terminal illness that is verified, then your insurance should offer to cover you. Your medical insurance could cover the (much cheaper) cost of assisted suicide, while your life insurance covers the cost of your funeral (with proof of assisted suicide - if they choose to force the issue) and leave your family with whatever amount was due in accordance to the terms of the insurance. I suspect a ton of hurdles will be thrown in to make "legal" suicide difficult, but would dangle the carrot of your debts paid (or mostly so) and your family receiving something from the life insurance. Yes, some people who commit suicide are assholes and don't care about the damage left behind in their wake. Other people, however, do worry how their loved ones will carry on in their absence.
A person is entitled to terminate their life at any time, for any reason or no reason at all. All that a society can do is interfere with the methods available to someone who is suicidal and alter the ways in which the consequences from their death are covered (or not).
Quote from: Aletheia on January 11, 2015, 02:26:08 AM
All the emotional baggage aside - committing suicide is frowned upon mostly for all the debt and paperwork that is left behind. Few, if any life insurance will cover you if you commit suicide.
I can't agree with this. Suicide is "frowned upon" because it often ends the life of a person that people love, sometimes a very young person with a skewed perspective on things. A person with an illness that can heal. Fuck paperwork. If someone in my family killed themselves, paperwork would be the last thing I cared about.
QuoteAll that a society can do is interfere with the methods available to someone who is suicidal and alter the ways in which the consequences from their death are covered (or not).
All that society can do is interfere? I also disagree with this. We can offer help and provide the healthcare and emotional support.
Quote from: Mermaid on January 11, 2015, 08:57:27 AM
I can't agree with this. Suicide is "frowned upon" because it often ends the life of a person that people love, sometimes a very young person with a skewed perspective on things. A person with an illness that can heal. Fuck paperwork. If someone in my family killed themselves, paperwork would be the last thing I cared about. All that society can do is interfere? I also disagree with this. We can offer help and provide the healthcare and emotional support.
One has to wonder if the feelings of the suicidal individual are taken into account here?
A person who is loved decides to commit suicide. Why should everyone who "loved" them be interfering in what they want to do with their life? We hear all too often that you should do what you want to do with your life and pay no mind to what other people may think. The moment you decide you want to end your life, now you're suddenly selfish? Yes, it's painful for someone to die -- for any reason. Yet, the life of a person has always been their possession to do with as they please. They can live their life the way they choose, and they can end it if they choose to do so. All "loved" ones can do is make a request that a suicidal individual not take their life, but despite all the emotional turmoil, it ultimately is not the "loved" ones' choice to make.
The paperwork aspect isn't pertaining to the loved ones as they are in the midst of their grief. It is in reference to the loved ones who are left tending to the obligations of the deceased - particularly financial debt. Yes, grief is a horrible thing, and I am not undermining that. However, the fact that no life insurance will cover the medical expenses or leave a lump sum for the survivors, is what makes suicide all the more stigmatized. That is where most of the "selfish" part comes from. Not only does a person choose to end their life against the wishes of their loved ones, but the loved ones are left in the wake of what often is financial ruin due to the way the laws are set up.
Yes, help, healthcare, and emotional support are wonderful things for those who are mentally ill or were looking for a solution to their problem. However, for those who legitimately want to die, it is interference. For example, when one of my uncles was diagnosed with terminal cancer, there was no way his family could afford the treatment, hospital stays, or the loss of his wages. His family was the type to hold on no matter what and much like you, demanded that he hold on so that they may have have his company for as long as possible. He was not a foolish man. He knew that our society will not cover his death in the event of suicide. So, he was left with a very excruciating option - refusing treatment. He paid for the doctor visit that diagnosed him with terminal cancer, and went home to die. His family considered him "spending his remaining days with family," but in reality, it was slow, legal suicide. He could've left this world painless, but instead, he left it in utter agony. What will help, healthcare, and emotional support do for a man who was in excruciating pain for months due to a terminal illness? It's pointless at best and indescribably cruel at worst.
I understand the compulsion to want to fight for our loved ones. However, there are times when suicide is the best option. Alter the laws to take care of the loved ones after an individual commits suicide, and you will have fewer people living in utter misery because they feel compelled by the same love do not want to leave behind misery for others.
Not everyone considers life to be worth living, and it is their right to check out early if they so please.
Believe me, I've had enough friends and family commit suicide to have seen things from both sides. I saw the agony of the suicidal individual and I witness the piles and piles of responsibility placed on them by well meaning people. I've seen the unintended selfishness of the loved ones as they literally demand that the suicidal individual stay alive for the sake of them, albeit, dressed up in much prettier words. It's all the same. People do not want a suicidal individual dying because of how they will be affected - emotionally, financially, etc. Rarely does anyone take into consideration the misery of the suicidal individual who find living to be agonizing.
Please do not make the mistake of thinking every suicidal individual is mentally ill. Many are very much in control of their faculties and simply do not wish to live any more.
Quote from: Aletheia on January 11, 2015, 09:17:06 PM
Please do not make the mistake of thinking every suicidal individual is mentally ill.
I don't believe anyone mentioned that, but otherwise it felt very comforting.
Having someone acknowledge this with such complexity gives me ease. In this world of ignorant individuals who are blinded with lies, it gives me ease to talk about topics like this. Just want to say in advance; Everyone, thank you for discussing these ideas. I hope you will put them to the test IRL as well, but this was better than nothing. I wanted nothing more than understanding within this world.
Thanks to all of you I have a bit of hope in humanity left in me, and helped me out of a bad state when my grandmother had insulin shock.
Hope this lasts a bit longer, and if it does Thank you for posting in advance.
Quote from: Aletheia on January 11, 2015, 09:17:06 PM
One has to wonder if the feelings of the suicidal individual are taken into account here?
A person who is loved decides to commit suicide. Why should everyone who "loved" them be interfering in what they want to do with their life? We hear all too often that you should do what you want to do with your life and pay no mind to what other people may think. The moment you decide you want to end your life, now you're suddenly selfish? Yes, it's painful for someone to die -- for any reason. Yet, the life of a person has always been their possession to do with as they please. They can live their life the way they choose, and they can end it if they choose to do so. All "loved" ones can do is make a request that a suicidal individual not take their life, but despite all the emotional turmoil, it ultimately is not the "loved" ones' choice to make.
Not everyone considers life to be worth living, and it is their right to check out early if they so please.
Believe me, I've had enough friends and family commit suicide to have seen things from both sides. I saw the agony of the suicidal individual and I witness the piles and piles of responsibility placed on them by well meaning people. I've seen the unintended selfishness of the loved ones as they literally demand that the suicidal individual stay alive for the sake of them, albeit, dressed up in much prettier words. It's all the same. People do not want a suicidal individual dying because of how they will be affected - emotionally, financially, etc. Rarely does anyone take into consideration the misery of the suicidal individual who find living to be agonizing.
Please do not make the mistake of thinking every suicidal individual is mentally ill. Many are very much in control of their faculties and simply do not wish to live any more.
I agree with and endorse everything you said here! My father killed himself (as stated before) and my mother would have if need be. For the last 30 yrs of her life she was an insulin taking diabetic. She was diagnosed with stage 4 ovarian cancer and 6 mo. later died. He doctor put her mind at ease by explaining to her something she already knew. He told her not to take too much insulin at once for she could then go into insulin shock and die quickly. She was going to apply to the Oregon govt for the ability to have a doc. assisted death, if she wanted it. After the doc. left, she figured she would not need to worry. She kept at least 3 times what she needed at all times. But as fortune had it, she had a crisis, went to the ER, and died within 2 days. She was emotionally comforted knowing that she would not linger in horrid pain. Nobody should have to go through horrid and lingering pain because our society is too cruel to allow people to pass in their own way and time.