I saw an SNL fake commercial called "Asian American Doll". I thought it was an hilarious comment on our current level of Political Correctness .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFCAGVopUp0
A few days later I was watching the Golf Channel ( I love golf, so sue me) and one of the big stories this year was that PGA of America president Ted Bishop was fired for making sexist comments. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/24/us-golf-pga-bishop-idUSKCN0ID2JD20141024
Here is the Coles Notes version:
A British golfer named Ian Poulter had made some snotty comments about some other hall of fame type golfers. Ted Bishop thought these comments were whinny and called him a "Lil girl" in a tweet and followed that up with this tweet:
"Tom Watson (8 majors and a 10-3-1 Ryder Cup record) and Nick Faldo (6 majors and all-time Ryder Cup points leader) get bashed by Ian James Poulter. Really? Sounds like a little school girl squealing during recess. C'MON MAN!"
The story of the tweet grew quickly in the golf world and Bishop withdrew the post and apologized. However, the damage had been done so he was fired pretty quickly by the board of directors for making sexist comments.
A little background.. Bishop has a very good track record promoting women's golf and has two daughters one of whom I believe is pursuing a career as a pro. I looked to see if there were any other reasons the board might want to get rid of him but I couldn't find anything. He has apparently been doing a good job besides this faux pas. He was only a couple of months away from completing his term as president though I can't see that as being a factor.
How do you view the PC discussion? Is it overdone or over exaggerated or do you think there is a real problem?
PC is just another word for censorship which I hate. :eek: :butt: :biggrin2:
Quote from: Solitary on December 23, 2014, 02:31:45 PM
PC is just another word for censorship which I hate. :eek: :butt: :biggrin2:
I differentiate the two based on authority. Censorship is the official suppression of speech and PC is more unofficial.
I cannot envision any society in which PC does not exist in one form or another. I'm just wondering if it's really worse now or if it's our perception that it is worse. People have always gotten into trouble for saying the wrong thing at the wrong time even if it's not against any codified rule.
http://www.clickhole.com/video/if-you-dont-think-you-have-any-racial-prejudices-y-1026 :lol:
In seriousness though. There are some things that just shouldn't be said... like derogatory racial slurs.
But if someone is from china, they are chinese, if someone is from japan, they're japanese, if someone is from mexico, they're mexican...
People DO get overly offended, but there are cases where being offended is called for.
Quote from: Berati on December 23, 2014, 01:38:21 PM
How do you view the PC discussion? Is it overdone or over exaggerated or do you think there is a real problem?
Two thoughts on this which both essentially say the same exact thing.
1 We get the society we deserve.
2 We have seen the enemy and it is us.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on December 23, 2014, 06:40:48 PMBut if someone is from china, they are chinese, if someone is from japan, they're japanese, if someone is from mexico, they're mexican...
I agree. And I've never witnessed anyone get offended from being called by the correct nationality. But when it's incorrect, that's when the sparks fly. Like calling someone a Mexican if they're from from Brazil or Cuba. Or Chinese if they're Korean. I'm looking at you, Merle.
Personally, I'm a fine with being called an American. Or a Southerner. But call me a redneck...
Really anyone that has United States citizenship can be called "american"...
And Yes, hydra, getting the ethnicity wrong does cause sparks to fly sometimes... Although, I have made many honest mistakes from curiosity (otherwise the subject doesn't even come up) Thinking someone was Colombian when he was Ecuadorian, and thinking someone was Korean when they were of Chinese descent. But in all cases my friends just corrected me nicely and no harm or foul was made. That's the other thing, as long as you aren't an asshole about it, like if you are just asking what ethnicity someone's bloodline is, there usually isn't backlash.
It's really all in how you go about doing it. People are pretty cool with polite inquiries. But they quickly get mad at assumptions, especially derogatory ones.
I'm against Political Correctness, I utterly detest it in every form, that said I don't think you should run around throwing slurs at everyone that you see, that accomplishes nothing, or it gets a fight started, which also accomplishes nothing
One term that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me is African-American. (Or really, anything-American) I went to school with a white guy from South Africa who had dual citizenship. He called himself African-American, and technically, he's correct. (The best kind of correct)
Political correctness is mind control, similar to how cults work. By limiting spoken vocabulary, you're limiting thoughts. I don't advocate being an asshole or anything, but political correctness can be suffocating, and this board has its share of it.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on December 23, 2014, 06:40:48 PM
People DO get overly offended, but there are cases where being offended is called for.
I sort of agree, but I also think this is why people put religion on a pedestal. It appears that exactly when it is called for is a matter of opinion like in the example I gave above.
Problem is, too many of those who say they dismiss PC are those who wish to have an excuse to be rude, bigoted assholes.
Quote from: Atheon on December 24, 2014, 12:55:18 AM
Problem is, too many of those who say they dismiss PC are those who wish to have an excuse to be rude, bigoted assholes.
That is not a PC problem, it's a bigot problem and an uneducated problem. There are some things that will never be "politically correct".
Derogetory racial slurs (like the "n" word) will never be ok to use, no matter how it is used, and who it is used by. There is too much hate and violence tied with the origin of that word as with many other similar words. I don't even think it's not politically correct to use those words, it's just plain wrong. They are flat out inexcusable words to use.
There are other words that are not as bad and would have to be designated "not politically correct" or "politically correct", but those words are a huge no-no to say...
Idk maybe it is also a PC problem as well as a bigoted-prick problem... I'm all tired and shit and about to go to bed.
I tend to lean a little more toward the Don Rickles approach. You have to be able to laugh at many of the derogatory slurs, slang, and phrases out there, especially the ones which are applied to your own racial or ethnic background. The moment you make talking about that off limits, that just increases the impulse to push the issue. These terms do not have to be socially accepted, but they shouldn't be censored either.
Just like when someone has a bad idea, the best way to remove the incentive to support bad ideas is to let the group put the idea to the test. They give it a try and it systematically fails. Before long, everyone accepts that the idea wasn't a good one. However, anyone is free to give the idea a try if they want.
I dont like PC.
Firstly, it makes talking take 3x as long. Kinda like when prince changed his name to that symbol, people started calling him "The Artist Formally Known as Prince". Now you have to call someone a Morbidly Obese Same Gender Preferenced African American, instead of a fat black cocksucker(George Carlin joke not mine).
Secondly, it turns language into "thought crime" and frankly I think its bullshit. If I were to insult someone using "offensive" language, that is my right as an American. Frankly I dont give two fucks what anyone thinks of my language.
http://youtu.be/xdyin6uipy4
Words are just abstract symbols or sounds---like the American flag---why put so much emotion into their use? If I say nigga nigga every black person is offended, when it means quickly quickly in Chinese. Black punks go around calling each other nigger, why aren't they offended? Because it isn't the word itself, but what is meant by its use by the person using it. And why are people offended by a word unless they want to be offended by it. Just the word atheist is used offensively by idiots, fuck them and the Donkey they rode in on! What words are a person suppose to use if they don't like someone for any reason, or are pissed off? Lul. Honkey, Dyke, Blasphemer, Dumb Ass, Cunt, Prick, Queer, Sinner, go to hell---etc. Prejudice? Hell yes KKK! Bigot? Hell yes religious nut! Hateful? Hell yes War Monger! :fU: :butt: :kidra:
Political Correctness only is a concern, I think, when it comes to overtly self-censorship - and when does that really happen?
Quote from: Solitary on December 24, 2014, 12:38:25 PM
Words are just abstract symbols or sounds---like the American flag---why put so much emotion into their use? If I say nigga nigga every black person is offended, when it means quickly quickly in Chinese. Black punks go around calling each other nigger, why aren't they offended? Because it isn't the word itself, but what is meant by its use by the person using it. And why are people offended by a word unless they want to be offended by it. Just the word atheist is used offensively by idiots, fuck them and the Donkey they rode in on! What words are a person suppose to use if they don't like someone for any reason, or are pissed off? Lul. Honkey, Dyke, Blasphemer, Dumb Ass, Cunt, Prick, Queer, Sinner, go to hell---etc. Prejudice? Hell yes KKK! Bigot? Hell yes religious nut! Hateful? Hell yes War Monger! :fU: :butt: :kidra:
I'm not sure what kind of Chinese you're talking about. There is a word in Mandarin, nega, pronounced nay-ga, which means "that" but that's about the only thing that comes close to nigga.
People need to respect each other. That's my credo. If someone finds something offensive, instead of judging it and itemizing the reasons they're wrong, I try to accept that for what it is, and move on.
Quote from: Yahtzee CroshawIt's very depressing when you can't make honest cultural commentary without having to disavow the assumption that your feelings are motivated by an irrational hate-trigger response to different levels of melanin. You know what? A society where anyone can make jokes about anyone else and everyone laughs is a truly tolerant society. Political correctness-charged censorship only serves to engender resentment and distance between social groups.
it depends highly on the situation. Some if not many are truly offensive. while the ones we hear about most are people being utterly ridiculous.
that being said I support freedom of speech and that includes hate speech. Hate speech falls under the category of unpopular speech which last time I checked is protected. But the more we allow people to chip away at our rights the more we loose.
I don't care if that means assholes getting to sound like assholes. I'd rather be offended than be the thought police.
Quote from: Mermaid on December 26, 2014, 07:46:40 AM
People need to respect each other. That's my credo. If someone finds something offensive, instead of judging it and itemizing the reasons they're wrong, I try to accept that for what it is, and move on.
I really don't think an over-generalization is necessary, but I do agree with this to an extent. The exceptions I would give to this rule is if someone was an asshole or their world-view is harmful.
I would actually go one further and say while for me, I don't give someone respect until it is earned, I also don't disrespect someone unless it is earned. Everyone that hasn't fallen in one of those 2 categories for me gets a respectful/neutral view from me... if that makes sense.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on December 26, 2014, 08:22:17 PM
I really don't think an over-generalization is necessary, but I do agree with this to an extent. The exceptions I would give to this rule is if someone was an asshole or their world-view is harmful.
I would actually go one further and say while for me, I don't give someone respect until it is earned, I also don't disrespect someone unless it is earned. Everyone that hasn't fallen in one of those 2 categories for me gets a respectful/neutral view from me... if that makes sense.
Yeah, it makes sense.
Some further thoughts on "PC": People sometimes complain when they can't say certain things because they are not "PC" anymore, and that is inconvenient. Actually, you can say whatever you want, but you have to realize that you will offend people if you do. If you don't care, you don't care. That's on you. If you used to be able to call women "skirts" or Native Americans "Redskins" and you can't anymore and you're annoyed about that, I'd say you have a certain lack of respect for the people you are offending. If you complain that people are offended too easily, you, again, have a certain lack of respect for those people.
Quote from: doorknob on December 26, 2014, 04:36:14 PMthat being said I support freedom of speech and that includes hate speech. Hate speech falls under the category of unpopular speech which last time I checked is protected. But the more we allow people to chip away at our rights the more we loose.
I don't care if that means assholes getting to sound like assholes. I'd rather be offended than be the thought police.
I'm not sure were exactly to stand on hate speech. Sure, I'd agree with that the KKK can march and the Westboro people can spew their bile, even though I don't like it. But inciting violence or threatening people with bodily harm? I'm not okay with that. And it's not always easy to distinguish one from the other.
I used the term "Politically correct" one time around a friend who then insisted that it was a meaningless term. He struggled with it, but didn't seem to grasp it. Then I struggled with why he couldn't grasp the meaning. Now it is a relatively recent description, and as such, may not have a universally accepted definition, which would make it confusing for some.
But I will agree that it's an odd concept. It most clear to say something is correct or incorrect. Why isn't that adequate? Throwing in an additional descriptor that describes in what manner something is correct might muddy the concept of what being correct means. It sort of sounds like something that is politically correct is not truly correct, in which case being politically incorrect would actually mean someone is correct.
Quite often when someone says something is politically correct, it means he disagrees with it. And it usually applies to liberal ideas. Of course conservatives also practice political correctness. After all, would could be more politically correct than cherishing the "Christian ideals" upon which this great country is founded?
Quote from: SGOS on December 27, 2014, 08:00:16 AM
I used the term "Politically correct" one time around a friend who then insisted that it was a meaningless term. He struggled with it, but didn't seem to grasp it. Then I struggled with why he couldn't grasp the meaning. Now it is a relatively recent description, and as such, may not have a universally accepted definition, which would make it confusing for some.
But I will agree that it's an odd concept. It most clear to say something is correct or incorrect. Why isn't that adequate? Throwing in an additional descriptor that describes in what manner something is correct might muddy the concept of what being correct means. It sort of sounds like something that is politically correct is not truly correct, in which case being politically incorrect would actually mean someone is correct.
Quite often when someone says something is politically correct, it means he disagrees with it. And it usually applies to liberal ideas. Of course conservatives also practice political correctness. After all, would could be more politically correct than cherishing the "Christian ideals" upon which this great country is founded?
McCarthyism is the worst example of right wing political correctness I can think of having occurred here and it's far worse than the liberal version IMO.
As to the liberal version, here are a couple more examples where I think it goes too far.
I have an issue with the recent attempt to remove the word "nigger" from Huckelbery Finn and other classics.
Also, I've heard of attempts to squash any research on race/crime or to suppress the data that is already available. I think this well intentioned ostrich like behavior would be more harmful than helpful. Awhile back the Toronto police service stopped including race in descriptions of suspects. Seems a rather important detail to leave out. It didn't last long.
Quote from: doorknob on December 26, 2014, 04:36:14 PM
I don't care if that means assholes getting to sound like assholes. I'd rather be offended than be the thought police.
Mostly because that doesn't work. It does not change people's attitudes. Only hides them.
It makes as much sense as a racist who doesn't like black people to solve that problem with some peach spray paint.
PC can be a problem but it can also be a blessing. Not everything revolves around politics or the way opinions should be rightly addressed. PC can also be a way of avoiding poisonous conversations with people that you don't actually have a quarrel with. Sometimes you just don't want to know, or have to know what people you are talking to think about contentious or even obnoxious matters. Then it's just about being polite... Not political!
Gerard
Quote from: Gerard on December 28, 2014, 01:24:53 PM
PC can be a problem but it can also be a blessing. Not everything revolves around politics or the way opinions should be rightly addressed. PC can also be a way of avoiding poisonous conversations with people that you don't actually have a quarrel with. Sometimes you just don't want to know, or have to know what people you are talking to think about contentious or even obnoxious matters. Then it's just about being polite... Not political!
Gerard
I agree with you but I would label what you are talking about as polite conversation or etiquette.
PC as I brought up in the OP is more about unofficial punishing of "wrong" behavior. Like the labelling of any criticism of islam as "racist" (see the attempt to keep Bill Maher from delivering a commencement speech for his criticism of islam) or the refusal to allow the collection of race statistics when studying crime. Both are well intentioned but ultimately harmful IMO.
I'm a big fan of polite conversation but I don't like it when conversation is stifled in a high handed holier then thou manner which I see as the actual purpose of PC.
It's annoying but I'm not really sure how big problem it is. Bill Maher was ultimately allowed to give his speech and race stats are kept. Although if I was the guy fired for calling a whining male co-worker a "little girl" I might think it's going to far.
I think Macs are more of a problem.
Quote from: Berati on December 31, 2014, 01:18:47 PM
I agree with you but I would label what you are talking about as polite conversation or etiquette.
PC as I brought up in the OP is more about unofficial punishing of "wrong" behavior. Like the labelling of any criticism of islam as "racist" (see the attempt to keep Bill Maher from delivering a commencement speech for his criticism of islam) or the refusal to allow the collection of race statistics when studying crime. Both are well intentioned but ultimately harmful IMO.
I'm a big fan of polite conversation but I don't like it when conversation is stifled in a high handed holier then thou manner which I see as the actual purpose of PC.
It's annoying but I'm not really sure how big problem it is. Bill Maher was ultimately allowed to give his speech and race stats are kept. Although if I was the guy fired for calling a whining male co-worker a "little girl" I might think it's going to far.
I suppose you are right. PC may very well not be just about not talking about contentious matters in polite conversation, as I took it to be. Making certain points of view the object of "punishment" is indeed problematic. Is it PC? Or is it simply not correct politicaaly or otherwise I wonder?
Gerard
Political Correctness has an opportunity cost. I could be "studying to understand other cultures" or I could be doing something else, maybe something that will further my own cause.
Quote from: Gerard on January 01, 2015, 04:08:08 PM
I suppose you are right. PC may very well not be just about not talking about contentious matters in polite conversation, as I took it to be. Making certain points of view the object of "punishment" is indeed problematic. Is it PC? Or is it simply not correct politicaaly or otherwise I wonder?
Gerard
I think political correctness is somewhat meaningless, although I do have a picture of something in my mind when I hear the word. It's meaningless for three reasons:
1)It is more related to political affiliation than it is to reality. For example, 14 years ago it was politically correct to know with a great deal of certainty that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. While the certainty cut across party lines, it was more widely known to be true by Republicans than Democrats. Or for liberals, it is well know that racial profiling does not solve crimes, although it appears that most liberals who know this to be true, have not seen actual evidence.
2)Something that is politically correct, could be true or false, but in most cases, politically correct sort of implies something is deemed correct, which in reality, is actually not correct at all.
3)I suspect that those who whole certain politically correct views might be posturing somewhat for their peers, while at a less conscious level, they may actually question the truth of their position.
I wonder who coined this term, and what power this phenomenon holds that draws it into our social structure and makes it worthy of a label?
Quote from: SGOS on October 31, 2015, 07:19:25 AM
I think political correctness is somewhat meaningless, although I do have a picture of something in my mind when I hear the word. It's meaningless for three reasons:
1)It is more related to political affiliation than it is to reality. For example, 14 years ago it was politically correct to know with a great deal of certainty that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. While the certainty cut across party lines, it was more widely known to be true by Republicans than Democrats. Or for liberals, it is well know that racial profiling does not solve crimes, although it appears that most liberals who know this to be true, have not seen actual evidence.
2)Something that is politically correct, could be true or false, but in most cases, politically correct sort of implies something is deemed correct, which in reality, is actually not correct at all.
3)I suspect that those who whole certain politically correct views might be posturing somewhat for their peers, while at a less conscious level, they may actually question the truth of their position.
I wonder who coined this term, and what power this phenomenon holds that draws it into our social structure and makes it worthy of a label?
I believe it is a neo-lib phenomenon ... trying to create "thought crime" as well as "speech crime". Of course the neo-con position is the "one true faith" ;-) Neo-cons don't want you to shut up, they just want to kill you.
Quote from: Berati on December 23, 2014, 01:38:21 PM
I saw an SNL fake commercial called "Asian American Doll". I thought it was an hilarious comment on our current level of Political Correctness .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFCAGVopUp0
A few days later I was watching the Golf Channel ( I love golf, so sue me) and one of the big stories this year was that PGA of America president Ted Bishop was fired for making sexist comments. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/24/us-golf-pga-bishop-idUSKCN0ID2JD20141024
Here is the Coles Notes version:
A British golfer named Ian Poulter had made some snotty comments about some other hall of fame type golfers. Ted Bishop thought these comments were whinny and called him a "Lil girl" in a tweet and followed that up with this tweet:
"Tom Watson (8 majors and a 10-3-1 Ryder Cup record) and Nick Faldo (6 majors and all-time Ryder Cup points leader) get bashed by Ian James Poulter. Really? Sounds like a little school girl squealing during recess. C'MON MAN!"
The story of the tweet grew quickly in the golf world and Bishop withdrew the post and apologized. However, the damage had been done so he was fired pretty quickly by the board of directors for making sexist comments.
A little background.. Bishop has a very good track record promoting women's golf and has two daughters one of whom I believe is pursuing a career as a pro. I looked to see if there were any other reasons the board might want to get rid of him but I couldn't find anything. He has apparently been doing a good job besides this faux pas. He was only a couple of months away from completing his term as president though I can't see that as being a factor.
How do you view the PC discussion? Is it overdone or over exaggerated or do you think there is a real problem?
If it's xenocentric then it's a problem - having standards of civility based on real underlying principles is fine, but being disproportionately offended if it's a minority or women who is the butt of the joke isn't about real civility.
The argument from the far-left which you'll usually hear against this is the quasi-Marxist theory of "equality of outcome" (ex. that since women and minorities are "more" oppressed then double standards are acceptable in order to "even out" the results), but it's a silly theory. It'd be like using higher % of black crime rates to justify racial profiling or discrimination.
On the positive side, I think the internet is helping to kill political correctness and bring light to absurd cases such as the story of the golfer, and according to polls the majority of Americans are tired of it.