My father, early in my life, taught me to never put people on pedestals. "Its not if they will fall, because they will, it's the noise and destruction they make when they hit the ground".
I have never....never....never bought into the whole "fandom" crap. As much as I loved the Moody Blues, and I have had several opportunities to see them in concert....in town..right in town.. I never did. Oh, I love their music, but I would not spend more than normal money to see them when it is the music I like, not seeing them. Like movie stars.. I wouldn't walk across the street to see anyone..really. I have been a Tom Brady fan since his college days at Michigan and I have had several opportunities to actually see him and possibly meet him but no, I am not that into anyone that much.
I have bought albums, but I won't spend money on a concert....I will buy a ticket to a movie, but I won't go across the street to meet an actor, I will rant and hoot for an athlete but i will never buy their ''jersey" much less wear one.
I am the worse fan....I like what you do, but I am not spending a goddamn dime of my money on you.
So...Bill Cosby....man...I liked that guy...really really loved the guy. Admired his work...admired his ethic, admired all what he had to over come and became...
fuck man... breaks my heart. I put him on a pedestal.
I heard about this. It's such a huge smack in the face to us that grew up watching The Cosby Show and loved his stand up...
It's almost unreal....
If all of what's being said is true, than I am deeply saddened. I always looked up to him, I thought he was an upstanding guy, one who only wanted the best for people, all people, black white or whatever.
But all of this, I hope it isn't true, I really do, because he is...was.. one of the few actors I legitimately thought of as a good person, a real good person.
It makes me very sad to think about it, one of the reasons why I've been avoiding stories about it for the most part
If it's not true, it is even worse, because people will assume he's guilty, and not innocent. If he is guilty, he deserves worse then what he will get if it was that many, in my opinion. I wonder how many men in Hollywood have done the same.
Maybe its not worth jumping the gun on this yet.
Obviously we are now living in a time of greater police investigation and crime units who can even look back and determine if something happened or not. The cases of Jimmy Savile, Rolf Harris and Mike Tyson are open and shut cases, but until proven this thing with cosby could just be someone trying to play off of the recent hunt for these old celebrities who did the dirty.
honestly, I predict in the next 10 years all childhood icons from my childhood will all have been pedophiles.
Quote from: Munch on November 19, 2014, 08:59:50 PM
Maybe its not worth jumping the gun on this yet.
Obviously we are now living in a time of greater police investigation and crime units who can even look back and determine if something happened or not. The cases of Jimmy Savile, Rolf Harris and Mike Tyson are open and shut cases, but until proven this thing with cosby could just be someone trying to play off of the recent hunt for these old celebrities who did the dirty.
honestly, I predict in the next 10 years all childhood icons from my childhood will all have been pedophiles.
There are a lot of people, including Raven Simone that are saying this is just a "disgusting rumor".
Even Charles Manson said he is being railroaded. :eek:
I'll withhold judgment until I know for sure he is guilty. All these women supposedly, yet he was never convicted of anything, and now it is, I believe, past the statute of limitations on the crimes. I'm in the innocent until proven guilty camp.
But like you, Aitm, I've never been one to idolize people. Too jaded and been disappointed too many times.
It is my opinion that he and "The Cosby Show" was a defining moment in american culture that gave tens of millions of white youth and adults an understanding that black people were just like "white people". It had a tremendous influence on helping millions overcome their childhood racism and bigotry, for that I am thankful.....and admit that I feel less inclined to pile on... and that bothers me even more that I would consider the crimes worthy of looking the other way because he did so much. Does the overall good overcome the "evil"? Wow, talk about a smack in the face to my pre-conceived notions of sexual assault and how I view it. Maybe its due to the time lapse. I need to be punched.
We will never know if he did, or not, unless he confesses, but it would be a real shame if he did, for the reasons you stated that are true.
Quote from: aitm on November 20, 2014, 07:28:31 AM
It is my opinion that he and "The Cosby Show" was a defining moment in american culture that gave tens of millions of white youth and adults an understanding that black people were just like "white people". It had a tremendous influence on helping millions overcome their childhood racism and bigotry, for that I am thankful.....and admit that I feel less inclined to pile on... and that bothers me even more that I would consider the crimes worthy of looking the other way because he did so much. Does the overall good overcome the "evil"? Wow, talk about a smack in the face to my pre-conceived notions of sexual assault and how I view it. Maybe its due to the time lapse. I need to be punched.
All true, and this issue at this time does not help with the attitudes now felt about the Ferguson Missouri situation or any of the other racially dividing issues ongoing in our country. This is a man who was awarded the Freedom medal, the highest civilian award in the country. Very damaging in a big way.
Sorry Cos..not much of a fan and I'm like aitm when it comes to celebrities.. Unless they're knocking at my door with a suitcase full of cash for me I could care less if they get run over by a cement truck crossing the street to shake my hand.
My only brush with celebrity was when Lou Rawls bummed a cigarette from me outside of a nightclub in LA way back when I joined the moonies and I didn't know who he was till we started talking and to this day he still owes me a cigarette..
To add. To bad the rest of us don't have the luxury of having a PR department to sanitize all the shitty little things we do in our lives, but celebrities do and those departments go out of their way to portray their clients as nothing short of saintly..
You haven't met the right celebrities, like I have, or you wouldn't feel that way. My wife and I met Henry Fonda when Disney World opened the very first day, and wanted my wife in a commercial he was making while ridding on Dumbo, because of the way her long light reddish brown hair looked blowing backwards. He was as nice a guy I have ever met, and he was a sick as a dog that day, and died soon after.
There are good celebrities just like there are good people. A former coworker of mine used to run a gas station in Nevada. Audie Murphy used to gas up his vehicles there, because he had a ranch nearby. He would stop in, shoot the shit, buy strangers coffee and would give rides to hitch hikers. George Clooney has spent millions helping people caught up in warfare in Darfur and the Sudan, and he is an atheist. Likewise Brad Pitt has done a lot of charity work and Jolie has been a spokesman for abused women in 3rd world countries.
I never equated celebrity with goodness or badness. No doubt some get caught up in their own celebrity-like Chuck Norris-but there are many who can look past that and just be people.
Quote from: stromboli on November 20, 2014, 01:56:50 PM
There are good celebrities just like there are good people. A former coworker of mine used to run a gas station in Nevada. Audie Murphy used to gas up his vehicles there, because he had a ranch nearby. He would stop in, shoot the shit, buy strangers coffee and would give rides to hitch hikers. George Clooney has spent millions helping people caught up in warfare in Darfur and the Sudan, and he is an atheist. Likewise Brad Pitt has done a lot of charity work and Jolie has been a spokesman for abused women in 3rd world countries.
I never equated celebrity with goodness or badness. No doubt some get caught up in their own celebrity-like Chuck Norris-but there are many who can look past that and just be people.
Agree man, there are some celebrities out there that do good things for the sake of it and not for the publicity they might get , Bob Geldoff for instance.
Yeah. Jimmy Stewart comes to mind. Flew a bomber in WW2, was a Air Force Reserve Brigadier General, lifelong family man who was a doting and loving father, all that. There are good people out there. Like I said, I'll withhold judgment on Cosby until all the facts are known.
Still celebrities which means exactly jack shit nothing.. More people know of them and they have more money than most. Just as many celebrities would step over your dead and dying carcass for a photo opp..
At first I thought this topic was going to be about me. :eek:
No but between me, apa and Strom we can make one for ya, ya old coot!
(http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/031/f/1/kill_bill_wallpaper_by_loupii-d5tel2x.jpg)
Quote from: aitm on November 26, 2014, 11:50:36 AM
No but between me, apa and Strom we can make one for ya, ya old coot!
JJ says hi! http://youtu.be/uF6Jdmi5u6w
I have no idea if he's guilty or not, but I adhere of the principle of innocence until proven guilty.
Accusations do not = guilt; a determination of guilt comes from a preponderance of evidence. Indeed, this case suffers from what I call "woodwork syndrome", in which dozens of random people come out of the woodwork in a relatively short time making similar accusations of behaviors already publicized, and often adding their own twists, which get more and more bizarre. This has happened to Michael Jackson, Bill Clinton, and many other cases of lesser prominence. This happens often when people are accused of abusive behavior, and lives have been ruined from accusations that later turn out to be fictional. This :woodwork syndrome" makes me believe even less that he is guilty.
This is not to say he isn't guilty. Maybe he is. But I will withhold judgement until evidence is provided.
That is a problem for him, how do you prove a negative? I was accused of something that was a total fabrication and the police hand cuffed me and took me to a mental health facility after the cop left me in the car for 45 minutes with the windows rolled up and the motor turned off when it was 108 degrees out side---the police didn't believe me, the psychologist or psychiatrist didn't believe, what was worst, my own family didn't believe me. I wouldn't go back to a place that would do that to me, and couldn't find a lawyer that believed me, and lost a job I had for almost twenty years---because they all assumed I was guilty after the rumor went around like wild fire. How could I prove it never took place? This happened after new management (Mormon) took over and found out I was an atheist. Even one of my neighbors was spreading the rumor that worked there and heard it. It seems that the more outrageous a rumor is, the more people are willing to believe it. OJ was lucky to have lawyers he could afford! It's past now, but it was extremely maddening at the time.
People are sometimes vile. That is only thing that can be said about this right now.
I think by this point, even if he is innocent, his career is over; everyone is jumping ship now
I am pretty disgusted with the blaming and doubt cast on the women who stepped forward. I need to learn to quit reading comments on these articles.
Innocent until proven guilty. Accusations are not proof: physical evidence, or GTFO.
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on November 28, 2014, 08:43:14 PM
Innocent until proven guilty. Accusations are not proof: physical evidence, or GTFO.
Yes. That is how our justice system works. I don't believe anyone here has said otherwise.
Quote from: Mermaid on November 28, 2014, 08:54:41 PM
Yes. That is how our justice system works. I don't believe anyone here has said otherwise.
Never said they did, just throwing in my $0.02. :)
By the way, what does this mean?
QuotePosts: 2729
Total likes: 206
In hentai, every kiss begins with RAPE!
its a hentai joke, a lot of hentai starts as rape that everyone ends up enjoying, because hentai.
You can stop grinning now! (http://i.imgur.com/IDztOjc.jpg) (http://imgur.com/IDztOjc) And Jack says: "Shut the fuck up dumb ass!"
Quote from: Mermaid on November 28, 2014, 08:58:43 PM
By the way, what does this mean?
Oh, just a stupid little joke from this review of a... "show," whose reason for existing keeps me up at night:
[spoiler=Not for the faint of heart]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AASL_E3XGM[/spoiler]
I stand in awe over all the possible implications...
1.) Bill Cosby is a potential serial rapist spanning decades undetected.
2.) 20 or so women are willing to pretend to have been sexually assaulted in an almost coordinated manner in order to tear down a celebrity who has tried to give back good things to the community.
3.) A lot of people have no FUCKING clue that our justice system is based on the notion that a person is innocent until proven guilty, which means the burden of proof is on the ones making the accusations.
4.) A lot of people fail to understand that rumors do not equal truth.
5.) If Bill Cosby was indeed a serial rapist - how the hell do you keep that many victims quiet?
I'm awaiting the evidence (if here is any) with the assumption of Cosby's innocence unless proven otherwise.
Quote from: Green Bottle on November 20, 2014, 04:23:38 PM
Agree man, there are some celebrities out there that do good things for the sake of it and not for the publicity they might get , Bob Geldoff for instance.
Wait... What?
Quote from: Aletheia on November 29, 2014, 06:13:36 AM
5.) If Bill Cosby was indeed a serial rapist - how the hell do you keep that many victims quiet?
Most rapes go unreported because of the blame and doubt that are being cast on the women who have come forward. Exactly like is happening with all the women coming forward about Cosby now. With support and numbers come courage. Even when reported, rape very very rarely results in jail time for the accused. https://www.rainn.org/statistics
It is not hard at all to understand how a manipulative person could persuade women to keep quiet because nobody would believe them, and offer to pay them off at the same time. A lot of them were very young at the time of the alleged assaults. A lot of children never come forward about being molested because they are convinced bad things will happen or that nobody will believe them. Being assaulted is bad enough. It's often worse to be subject to that sort of scrutiny and doubt afterward. I don't blame anyone for not reporting it.
I was sexually assaulted when I was 15, and I reported it immediately. Most people, including my parents, were supportive and acted appropriately. But I was subject to rumor, doubt and even disdain and anger by some of my peers who accused me of making it up for the attention--one of those peers was the daughter of the police officer who I went to after it happened, and who was involved in my case. I am pretty sure she absorbed that doubt from her father. There was never any arrest, never even a suspect. The rape kit was never processed. There was nothing.
I have not followed up on most articles out of dissappointment, but I did see a snippet where many were paid off.
The idea of innocent until proven guilty goes right out the door if you're arrested for minor charges once you've been booked into jail. Once you step foot in that jail most of our society assumes you're guilty for merely being there.. IUPG is and always has been a farce..
I hate to say it, but from my experience I have to agree, the system and people assume you are guilty or you wouldn't be arrested, and even if you aren't and just accused you are, however, it is true that women are put through the ringer if they report a rape. And accusing someone for molestation is impossible to prove without witnesses. When I was working in the local school district I was in a room alone that was boarded up, and had a 12-13 year old girl jump up on me and put her arms and legs around me and kiss me on the mouth. At the same time a male teacher came in the door and told the girl to leave. If the same thing hadn't happen to him I would probably be in prison now. This is a real problem, because a lot of young girls get a crush and when it isn't reciprocated get jealous and want revenge.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on November 29, 2014, 09:47:48 AM
The idea of innocent until proven guilty goes right out the door if you're arrested for minor charges once you've been booked into jail. Once you step foot in that jail most of our society assumes you're guilty for merely being there.. IUPG is and always has been a farce..
Unless, or course, you are a wealthy celebrity with lawyers. You can ride the IUPG card for a long time on that boat; Bill, it seems, has. If he is guilty he is a very bad man. But if we are talking like 20 women, some of whom were bought off, in my mind it calls into question exactly what they viewed as rape. Sadly, women have a hard time proving rape short of being beaten savagely and having obvious evidence on their bodies. None of these women, so far as I know, were beaten into submission. So coercion was involved, certainly. Cosby is a smart man with college degrees. He certainly knows the playground he plays in, so coercion is well within his ability.
But no matter how he is blamed, there is always going to be an element of doubt, because of the time involved and the lack of what appears to be prima facie evidence.
And to mention Sol's post, I for one studiously avoid being in a situation where anyone, man or woman, could ever claim anything against me. It happened to me once at Hill that a woman who didn't like me made claims about me that were totally fabricated. It was disproven quickly, fortunately, but I got the message. When I was a youth leader with Jesus People Ministries, I would never be in a room without the door being open or another adult as witness. There were a couple of Hispanic girls from broken homes that attended and were certainly vulnerable. Likewise as a Boy Scout assistant scoutmaster, there was one boy rumored to be gay. I made damn sure we were never in the same tent together. :biggrin:
@Mermaid.
The number of victims being silent just astounded me. Somehow, it seemed intuitive that at least one out of twenty would've said something. However, based on facts, this is probably very unlikely.
Actually some did come forward contemporaneously. Which resulted in exactly nothing.
Some did come forward, and were intimidated or bought off. Such is the culture in this country where this regularly occurs. I've read statistics that only 30-45% of rapes actually get reported, because they are most often a dominance situation where the rapist has control of the victim's life in one form or another. I grew up with a girl who we always thought "wasn't right", kind of backward and afraid of people. It was well into my adulthood before I found out she had been victimized by her father, a respected teacher in our high school, for many years. He himself was secretly a polygamist as well. It was only after his death that she was able to come forward and tell the truth.
And in her case, it was religion that was used to cloak his activities. He was a Seminary teacher at our high school.
A bit unrelated, but back in the late 80s, early 90s a lot of fathers were getting locked up on molestation charges with their own kids for merely giving their kids baths. It worked like this: Quasi social worker would show kid a doll, point to the crotch and lead the kids with "Daddy touched you here didn't he?", but then some smart people realized that it was a setup. Words were put into children's mouths, even kids incapable of speech yet. Most of those cases were eventually dropped and the men released, but the damage was done.
Back then a good friend of mine moved to upstate NY and bought a farm. A few years later his wife left and he got custody of the kids. Shortly after that some social worker pulled out the stops, he lost his kids, farm and everything he'd ever worked for and spent 3 years in Attica prison before he was released and all charges dropped. His ex wife had nothing to do with the accusations, but the county took all of his property and his kids.
We lost contact after that and to this day I have no idea if he ever saw his kids again.
Quote from: Mermaid on December 02, 2014, 08:12:28 AM
Actually some did come forward contemporaneously. Which resulted in exactly nothing.
Yes from what I read, Bill settled out of court with one of the girls who filed charges at the time, and the others (at least 2 others came forward at the time of the assault) all resulted in nothing. There are reasons the majority of sexual assault victims stay silent. You often get a lot of extra shame and unwanted publicity and nothing else.
"Innocent until proven guilty" is a legal principle involving how the government can treat a suspect. In theory it is even honored.
But it is a legal principle for the government. People are free to make their own judgements.
True. You can also say that the preponderance of evidence can convict him of a crime. The problem being is that it is essentially hearsay- even though there are many separate accounts, as far as I can see, there is lack of corroboration for the most part, of individual accounts. My thinking is that either he is one very smart man, picking his victims and situations with great care, or he is not guilty of all the events. I don't think from this point he can get out from under it, simply because there are too many accounts and he has to disprove each one; something very hard to do.
However much face he has lost, unless it can be proven within the statute of limitations he has committed a crime, he won't be anything more than a dishonored and fallen icon.
As is the case so much of the time, it's his word against theirs.
Just when I thought he couldn't look worse.
QuoteBill Cosby Breaks Silence: I Only Expect Black Media to Remain ‘Neutral’ Amid Rape Allegations
https://tv.yahoo.com/news/bill-cosby-breaks-silence-black-media-stay-neutral-073643824.html
I'm surprised that no third party has made an investigation into the charges. If one or more of the claims can be shown as false, it throws doubt on the others. If he is guilty and is never charged, it still comes back to innuendo and he can ultimately deflect the charges. He may lose credibility and never be seen in the same light, but won't spend a day in jail.
That he has not himself undertaken to vigorously disprove the charges makes you wonder. At this point you get the impression he is just riding it out until it dies away.
So.... I was on youtube and one of the news videos that came up was this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOkX4EmL98
Janice Dickenson referenced having sex with Bill Cosby in 2006. She didn't specifically say it was rape back then, but she did say she could not give any details because she was afraid of what would happen. It seems to align pretty well for the accusations against Cosby.... Any remaining doubt doubt that I had about the claims against Bill are gone now.
I don't have any idea what BC is guilty of. I can say that one of the recent claims I read -- the victim claimed that she had one sip and immediately knew she had been drugged, cussed him out, and dragged herself out of the house before she passed out -- pretty hard to believe. I just can't hardly believe that the drink could be that strongly drugged.
In terms of legal issues, I don't know of anything that is on the table. I just know that a lot of women have been coming forth in the last month or so. I don't want to believe it, but the facts seem to be stacked against him.
Yeah, I doubt he will ever be charged, statue of lim. and all that. But maybe civil, however the hell they can prove that.