I was thinking today: "Is there a way to completely stump someone in their argument for their god EVEN if they are a fundamentalist"
This is what I came up with so far
The basic dialogue goes:
-Do you mind me asking a few things about your god?
(most situations, I would expect they would say "yes")
-Is your god all knowing?
(yes)
-Is your god all powerful?
(yes)
-Is your god all-loving?
(yes)
-is your god everywhere at the same time, all the time?
(yes)
-What is your god's role in the 2011 Japanese earthquake and tsunami that resulted in over 13,000 fatalities?
If you guys know of any other decent "stop a religiotard in it's tracks" arguments, post them below!
I have been anxious to actually ask someone that in person, but between recovering from my cold and busy with my commissions, I haven't been able to get out yet.
"God works in mysterious ways"
Sorry, but I don't think there is a stumper for a fundamentalist. These are the people who know their gawd ordered genocides and are ok with it.
Apparently you young whippersnapper, you don't know how God works. You see you hell bound infidel, God promises his grace upon those who truly believe. I truly believe, and those who do not? Well.........
Quote from: GalacticBusDriver on September 02, 2014, 06:12:41 PM
"God works in mysterious ways"
Sorry, but I don't think there is a stumper for a fundamentalist. These are the people who know their gawd ordered genocides and are ok with it.
Yes. I am aware of these people and even know a few of them personally.
To this, I would ask them how that fits in to their god's all-lovingness and see where it goes from there.
Quote from: aitm on September 02, 2014, 07:14:59 PM
Apparently you young whippersnapper, you don't know how God works. You see you hell bound infidel, God promises his grace upon those who truly believe. I truly believe, and those who do not? Well.........
Lol ok poe-mode-aitm.
Since that is basically a "god works in mysterious ways" line. I would just say that if god wants to be so mysterious, he doesn't seem like he wants to be believed in.
----
I know that I'm never going to have a conversation that is going to 180 someone's faith, btw. Any time I even talk to someone that believes something so unrealistic, my main focus is to leave them thinking about it a little more objectively when I'm done. (hopefully)
Well, this worked on the horrible jerks that keep asking to see my electric bill to supposedly save me tons of money -- went to the door with my hot dog and dinner plate in my hands and said I couldn't talk. Perhaps I'll keep a half-eaten hot dog at the ready for the religious solicitors as well.
Quote from: LoriPinkAngel on September 02, 2014, 08:24:52 PM
Well, this worked on the horrible jerks that keep asking to see my electric bill to supposedly save me tons of money -- went to the door with my hot dog and dinner plate in my hands and said I couldn't talk. Perhaps I'll keep a half-eaten hot dog at the ready for the religious solicitors as well.
:lol:
Quote from: PickelledEggs on September 02, 2014, 06:01:44 PMIf you guys know of any other decent "stop a religiotard in it's tracks" arguments, post them below!
I don't think that someone who uses a word like "religiotard" has enough empathy to be able to understand someone else's position well enough to communicate with them effectively.
What you did in the OP is bring up the problem of evil. This isn't some kind of new challenge to theists that will stop them dead in their tracks, it's something that many of them have already thought of. They will have responses to it. I'm not claiming that their responses will be adequate, but nonetheless it won't stop them dead in their tracks.
Quote from: Drummer Guy on September 03, 2014, 03:10:49 PM
I don't think that someone who uses a word like "religiotard" has enough empathy to be able to understand someone else's position well enough to communicate with them effectively.
What you did in the OP is bring up the problem of evil. This isn't some kind of new challenge to theists that will stop them dead in their tracks, it's something that many of them have already thought of. They will have responses to it. I'm not claiming that their responses will be adequate, but nonetheless it won't stop them dead in their tracks.
My goal was to point out that something as horrific and tragic as 13,000 plus people dead from a natural disaster contradicts their view of God, which in this scenario, it does. Of course, like you are saying though, not everyone that is naive enough to believe something of such extravagant nonsense would be able to realize it contradicts it, but hey... I'm optimistic.
Sent from your mom
Quote from: PickelledEggs on September 03, 2014, 05:21:47 PM
My goal was to point out that something as horrific and tragic as 13,000 plus people dead from a natural disaster contradicts their view of God, which in this scenario, it does. Of course, like you are saying though, not everyone that is naive enough to believe something of such extravagant nonsense would be able to realize it contradicts it, but hey... I'm optimistic.
Sent from your mom
But it doesn't contradict their view of god. Their view of god would have to be such that he is required to intervene at every moment that harm may come to a human. But that's not what their view of god is.
I just point out that they can't prove a single word of what they believe, tell them to come back when they can, and shut the door in their face.
Quote from: Drummer Guy on September 03, 2014, 05:26:37 PM
But it doesn't contradict their view of god. Their view of god would have to be such that he is required to intervene at every moment that harm may come to a human. But that's not what their view of god is.
Actually it does. An all loving god, would never allow bad things to happen to good people... or anyone for that matter. That is what all-loving is. His all-powerfulness and all-knowingness would allow him to find a way to prevent everything bad from happening.
At this point of the conversation, after they demonstrate how oblivious they are of their own stupidity, how him allowing (or even causing) a tragedy like this or of any kind contradicts those views they have of their god, I would ask them this:
Multiple choice. God allows bad things to happen because:
a- he causes them
b- he can't
c- he doesn't care
d- he doesn't exist
(credit for that goes to Ricky Gervais)
In all honesty, I could ask that first.... but I tend to enjoy probing what people are thinking first and qualify them for the next best question (I've had too many years in sales.... :lol:)
The mulitple choice doesn't do much IMO other than try to force the person to realize that the god they believe in is either a lazy prick, a malevolent cunt, or an indifferent and incompetent twat. I could try to do more probing, but, there is no purpose because they already demonstrated how stubbornly ignorant they are and I've decided to move on in my day.... maybe get a pizza or jerk off to some space documentary (at that point any form of genuine intelligence would probably make me cream in my pants)
Gawd doesn't work in mysterious ways, Gawd just punches them in the face.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on September 03, 2014, 09:17:20 PMAn all loving god, would never allow bad things to happen to good people...
Why not? I love my children but that doesn't mean that I should pad every corner of my house where they could get hurt. It doesn't mean that I prevent them from going out and doing anything where they may get hurt. It doesn't mean that I stand beside them 24/7 and stop them from doing anything that would hurt them. If I want them to learn and grow as people I let them become their own person. You may respond with a situation where they would die, and that does happen to some people, but does that mean that their parents didn't love them? You may respond to that with and explanation that if the parents could have prevented it they would have, but if someone knew that they could just do whatever they wanted and they would always get stopped before it became dangerous, what kind of person would they be? Would they be responsible? Would they respect and value their life?
You'll have to do a better job justifying the position that a loving god would stop every bad thing that could happen to someone, and you'll have to work out the consequences to such an existence.
Now, on some level I do agree with you, but I'm simply pointing out that this isn't an argument that will stop a theist dead in their tracks.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on September 03, 2014, 09:17:20 PM
Multiple choice. God allows bad things to happen because:
a- he causes them
b- he can't
c- he doesn't care
d- he doesn't exist
It's loaded question. If I had some supernatural ability and I let my kid go skiing, and they broke their leg, did they break their leg because:
a- he causes them
b- he can't
c- he doesn't care
d- he doesn't exist
See how it doesn't really work? You need to add
e-I allow them to do the things they enjoy unhindered, so that they can live their lives how they choose.
Quote from: Drummer Guy on September 04, 2014, 11:52:51 AM
It's loaded question. If I had some supernatural ability and I let my kid go skiing, and they broke their leg, did they break their leg because:
a- he causes them
b- he can't
c- he doesn't care
d- he doesn't exist
See how it doesn't really work? You need to add e-I allow them to do the things they enjoy unhindered, so that they can live their lives how they choose.
I'm sure he didn't enjoy breaking his leg. And I'm sure he didn't choose to break his leg. If a god is defined by the above things (all-powerful, all loving, etc) He would find a way to let the person ski without having to break his leg.
That option you gave me is completely redundant, is practically a repeat of a, b, and c, so the original 4 still stand. So answer me this:
did he break his leg because god didn't have the power to prevent it? because the forces that caused it are beyond his control?
did god cause the broken leg as a "lesson" for how not to ski? or as a punishment for something bad he did?
or did god just not care enough to help him evade injury, despite his all-powerfulness?
I don't even talk to them. So I really don't know what to tell you.
lets say there's an amazon tribe no one has found yet. within that tribe lives a man that for all his life helped others, never lied or cheated, or stole, or anything evil. he is pure. because of its isolation the tribe believes in a great banana god named guck. based on christian beliefs and teaching this man can never enter heaven because he has never accepted jesus as his savior. yet another man in new york who is a serial murderer may enter heaven by simply accepting jesus to wash away his sins. does this make sense to the theist advocate?
Quote from: Desdinova on September 04, 2014, 04:31:33 PM
lets say there's an amazon tribe no one has found yet. within that tribe lives a man that for all his life helped others, never lied or cheated, or stole, or anything evil. he is pure. because of its isolation the tribe believes in a great banana god named guck. based on christian beliefs and teaching this man can never enter heaven because he has never accepted jesus as his savior. yet another man in new york who is a serial murderer may enter heaven by simply accepting jesus to wash away his sins. does this make sense to the theist advocate?
You used logic. Not fair.
Quote from: stromboli on September 04, 2014, 04:33:34 PM
You used logic. Not fair.
its not fair that you use underboob images to distract me from my posting. but i like it. very much.
I always stop them by telling them to close their religious propaganda books and tell me what they think. They always look perplexed and want to shake my hand and leave pissed off. Solitary
Quote from: Desdinova on September 04, 2014, 04:31:33 PM
lets say there's an amazon tribe no one has found yet. within that tribe lives a man that for all his life helped others, never lied or cheated, or stole, or anything evil. he is pure. because of its isolation the tribe believes in a great banana god named guck. based on christian beliefs and teaching this man can never enter heaven because he has never accepted jesus as his savior. yet another man in new york who is a serial murderer may enter heaven by simply accepting jesus to wash away his sins. does this make sense to the theist advocate?
It does make sense to the theist advocate. The hypothetical person you talk about is hypothetical. There is nobody in the world without "sin" (according to the theist). Because of this, the question is nonsense.
But we could rephrase it to a very good person, and a serial murderer. Do you guys actually think that Christians never ponder these things? When I was a Christian I wondered about that. The answer I got is that god can't stand to be in the presence of sin, no matter how big or small. The fact that a serial murderer can be forgiven before he dies is a demonstration of how forgiving god can be.
Quote from: Solitary on September 04, 2014, 04:39:56 PM
I always stop them by telling them to close their religious propaganda books and tell me what they think. They always look perplexed and want to shake my hand and leave pissed off. Solitary
I really like this approach
Quote from: Drummer Guy on September 04, 2014, 08:26:38 PM
The answer I got is that god can't stand to be in the presence of sin, no matter how big or small.
And that's a stupid answer. He can't do it? He can't stand it? That doesn't sound like a perfect god to me, but perfect is a meaningless term anyway.
did he break his leg because god didn't have the power to prevent it? no, he broke his leg because he chose to go skiing and landed wrong after taking a jump
because the forces that caused it are beyond his control? no, because god allows him to take the jump that he wants to take
did god cause the broken leg as a "lesson" for how not to ski? or as a punishment for something bad he did? god did not cause it, the boy chose to act in such a way that caused it
or did god just not care enough to help him evade injury, despite his all-powerfulness? this is where you're missing the point. What would a world be like with no responsibility? I wouldn't need to worry about working, we wouldn't need to farm/grow food. We wouldn't need to do anything because all of our basic needs would be miraculously taken care of. How can anybody grow as a person and really enjoy all aspects of life in a world like that? How could they appreciate what they have?
Quote from: Savior2006 on September 04, 2014, 08:29:49 PM
And that's a stupid answer. He can't do it? He can't stand it? That doesn't sound like a perfect god to me, but perfect is a meaningless term anyway.
If something was perfectly holy and perfectly good, would it be fine with that being to hang around bad things?
I agree with you when it comes to semantics. Not everything is very well defined here. However, it's a mistake to think that Christian philosophers haven't at least attempted to figure these things out.
Quote from: Drummer Guy on September 04, 2014, 08:31:24 PM
did he break his leg because god didn't have the power to prevent it? no, he broke his leg because he chose to go skiing and landed wrong after taking a jump
because the forces that caused it are beyond his control? no, because god allows him to take the jump that he wants to take
did god cause the broken leg as a "lesson" for how not to ski? or as a punishment for something bad he did? god did not cause it, the boy chose to act in such a way that caused it
or did god just not care enough to help him evade injury, despite his all-powerfulness? this is where you're missing the point. What would a world be like with no responsibility? I wouldn't need to worry about working, we wouldn't need to farm/grow food. We wouldn't need to do anything because all of our basic needs would be miraculously taken care of. How can anybody grow as a person and really enjoy all aspects of life in a world like that? How could they appreciate what they have?
I really hope that you're only in poe-mode...
Quote from: Drummer Guy on September 04, 2014, 11:50:16 AMWhy not? I love my children but that doesn't mean that I should pad every corner of my house where they could get hurt. It doesn't mean that I prevent them from going out and doing anything where they may get hurt. It doesn't mean that I stand beside them 24/7 and stop them from doing anything that would hurt them. If I want them to learn and grow as people I let them become their own person. You may respond with a situation where they would die, and that does happen to some people, but does that mean that their parents didn't love them?
Well, if your kid is playing in traffic and you put the kid there and put the cars there, then yes, that would make you a bad parent. And the sort of things that God is described as doing in the Bible are actually far worse than that.
Quote from: Hydra009 on September 04, 2014, 09:31:46 PM
Well, if your kid is playing in traffic and you put the kid there and put the cars there, then yes, that would make you a bad parent. And the sort of things that God is described as doing in the Bible are actually far worse than that.
This.
God could have just left out violence, famine, injuries, and pain in general when he made his list of "things to include in the world"
We're just God's favorite tv show, at least we haven't hit the re-runs yet
Quote from: PickelledEggs on September 04, 2014, 10:05:37 PMGod could have just left out violence, famine, injuries, and pain in general when he made his list of "things to include in the world"
In fairness, he did take out the part about people hurting each other with merely their thoughts (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzf8q9QHfhI).
He added in random brief sharp pain with no explicable cause and extremely vivid nightmares, though.
The Scathing Atheist recently said this to a religiobot who tried to get him to attend their church because he was sure that his pastor would succeed in convincing him about god and jeezus where so many others failed:
"How many dicks did you have to suck before you were sure you weren't gay?"
That ended the conversation and the religiobot left.
Quote from: Drummer Guy on September 04, 2014, 08:26:38 PM
It does make sense to the theist advocate. The hypothetical person you talk about is hypothetical. There is nobody in the world without "sin" (according to the theist). Because of this, the question is nonsense.
But we could rephrase it to a very good person, and a serial murderer. Do you guys actually think that Christians never ponder these things? When I was a Christian I wondered about that. The answer I got is that god can't stand to be in the presence of sin, no matter how big or small. The fact that a serial murderer can be forgiven before he dies is a demonstration of how forgiving god can be.
so if it does make sense to the theist, what does that say about their god? he is willing to condemn a person to eternal hell fire who was pure in all ways, yet allow a mass murderer to walk through the pearly gates. if their god is good and loves us all, how can he condemn a pure person who was isolated and never heard the gospel? if this makes sense to the theist, which apparently it does, we've all seen it, then these people are indeed idiots.
Quote from: Hydra009 on September 04, 2014, 09:31:46 PM
Well, if your kid is playing in traffic and you put the kid there and put the cars there, then yes, that would make you a bad parent. And the sort of things that God is described as doing in the Bible are actually far worse than that.
What would it mean for my kid if I kept them hidden away from dangers as a kid (which I should) but then continued to do so through their adult lives? Would they have a fulfilling life where they got to experience what this world has to offer?
Yes, I am playing a bit of a poe role here, but it's important to scrutinize your own arguments. These types of arguments are why the term "new atheist" exists. Its a bunch of people with an internet connection who make philosophically lazy arguments without questioning each other. I'm just hoping through this you'll be able to sharpen up your argument.
It's a serious question that still hasn't been answered though; How would a world function without suffering? Would we ever die? How would we die? Would we have to be responsible for anything at any time? If so, what? What types of experiences and emotions would we never experience? If we didn't experience things like fear, would our other positive emotions ever be as fulfilling as they are now?
I'm not claiming that I'm able to justify suffering with a loving god, but if you think you're going to stop a theist dead in their tracks with a question about it then you're mistaken. It's easy to make a claim like "god wouldn't allow suffering" but what you need to be able to follow up with is a description of what the consequences of that kind of universe would be. In other words, think it through more so that you have a stronger case.
Quote from: Drummer Guy on September 05, 2014, 12:00:24 PMYes, I am playing a bit of a poe role here, but it's important to scrutinize your own arguments. These types of arguments are why the term "new atheist" exists. Its a bunch of people with an internet connection who make philosophically lazy arguments without questioning each other. I'm just hoping through this you'll be able to sharpen up your argument.
Please tell me you're not serious. Because that is grade A bullshit.
QuoteIt's a serious question that still hasn't been answered though; How would a world function without suffering? Would we ever die? How would we die? Would we have to be responsible for anything at any time? If so, what? What types of experiences and emotions would we never experience? If we didn't experience things like fear, would our other positive emotions ever be as fulfilling as they are now?
I'm not claiming that I'm able to justify suffering with a loving god, but if you think you're going to stop a theist dead in their tracks with a question about it then you're mistaken. It's easy to make a claim like "god wouldn't allow suffering" but what you need to be able to follow up with is a description of what the consequences of that kind of universe would be. In other words, think it through more so that you have a stronger case.
The gratuitous suffering and death in our world does not make for a fulfilling life. If for example, AIDS did not exist, it would make life no less worth living. And I've got to say, it's very odd to watch Christians place such value in suffering in one breath and extol their suffering-free heaven with the next. Methinks they don't believe what they're saying and of course, neither do you.
What kind of world should a god create? That's a pretty moot question, don't you think? We're here, that's how it is, and we don't get a choice.
Theists, on the contrary, argue that all this is the work of a creator god who made it this way intentionally. They shouldn't get a pass from the implications of their claim. Nor should such criticism be dismissed out of hand as "philosophically lazy" or weak simply because it's associated with a group that you apparently don't like.
^^^ all of that
(http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/thumbs%20up/grand/46746733-thumb-up-.gif)
Quote from: Hydra009 on September 05, 2014, 12:14:40 PM
What kind of world should a god create? That's a pretty moot question, don't you think? We're here, that's how it is, and we don't get a choice.
If it's a moot question, then why do we continually tell theists that god should have created a different kind of world?
Do you really think it's a moot question?
My point is simply this; Saying "Why did god let people die in the tsunami? HAHA CHECKMATE THEISTS!!!!" is about as well thought out as "Oh ya, well how did the universe begin? HAHA CHECKMATE ATHEISTS!!!!"
My point is that it won't stop them dead in their tracks. Theists have thought about it, and have different perspectives and answers, even if we don't find those answers satisfactory. I just think if we are going to try to stop them dead in their tracks we could try to come up with arguments that actually accomplish that.
Quote from: Drummer Guy on September 05, 2014, 02:03:03 PM
My point is simply this; Saying "Why did god let people die in the tsunami? HAHA CHECKMATE THEISTS!!!!" is about as well thought out as "Oh ya, well how did the universe begin? HAHA CHECKMATE ATHEISTS!!!!"
My point is that it won't stop them dead in their tracks. Theists have thought about it, and have different perspectives and answers, even if we don't find those answers satisfactory. I just think if we are going to try to stop them dead in their tracks we could try to come up with arguments that actually accomplish that.
It's not that we don't find them satisfactory, it's that they
aren't satisfactory. The thing a lot of people that try to undo the stupid that religion causes do is try to instill a level of cognitive thinking that they just don't have. It's not like we're arguing over "Which is a better band? Alice in Chains or Nirvana?" (hint -- it's Alice in Chains) That argument is subjective. It's about opinion. The argument we are talking about "Is your god real?" is objective. It's about facts.
It's like asking who has more apples? Jake? or Fred? Fred has 7 and Jake has 10. Which is more? We, the nonbelievers know that it's Jake that has more apples. Theists will say it's Fred because either "they don't know, therefore Jake", or "Jake has extra apples. It doesn't say anywhere in the math problem... and Jake doesn't know about any extra apples, only the 7 apples he has... but I know Jake has more apples. I can FEEL it."
I think a .357 magnum would stop them cold....especially if you put the bullet right between their eyes.
Quote from: Minimalist on September 05, 2014, 09:55:09 PM
I think a .357 magnum would stop them cold....especially if you put the bullet right between their eyes.
That wouldn't work. The theist with the bullet in his head would be called a martyr for his beliefs and the shooter would be sent to jail for hate crime. Aside from a pointless death, it would only be a backlash for the atheist community.
P.S. Don't pretend it's funny to shoot theists... or anyone for that matter.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on September 04, 2014, 08:46:48 AM
Gawd doesn't work in mysterious ways, Gawd just punches them in the face.
Ort just orders up a flood and kills everybody!
"What's a god?"
Quote from: Drummer Guy on September 04, 2014, 08:31:24 PM
this is where you're missing the point. What would a world be like with no responsibility? I wouldn't need to worry about working, we wouldn't need to farm/grow food. We wouldn't need to do anything because all of our basic needs would be miraculously taken care of. How can anybody grow as a person and really enjoy all aspects of life in a world like that? How could they appreciate what they have?
I don't see your point. A perfect world with perfect people would be a utopia. (Isn't heaven suppose to be like that any way? What an eternity.) There are always ways to grow with or with out being injured or any other dangerous situation. I grow every day just from poking around on the internet or having deep meaningful conversations with a friend.
also let me tell you something I come from a drug addiction I saw people praying on their knees to please god please help me! And that person never got clean they are still on the streets. God won't even help people who are asking for help then how good is he? He is not. Some one who was good would help the person no matter the circumstance. But that is irrelevant because the real reason is that god does not exist. Something that does not exist can not help a human in need.
Quote from: the_antithesis on September 07, 2014, 11:18:49 AM
"What's a god?"
I asked a religious person that once and after a few moments of them thinking about the question, the looked at me and cried.... That conversation was over FAST :lol:
Quote from: stromboli on September 03, 2014, 05:38:36 PM
I just point out that they can't prove a single word of what they believe, tell them to come back when they can, and shut the door in their face.
They outright believe that god is perfectly benevolent, all loving and empathetic to our suffering. he sure has a funny way of showing it.
If they're serious about the discussion, I'll often ask about their god's omniscience and its freedom: if it's truly omniscient, then it must always have known everything it would and would not ever do, hence it cannot be free to change what it will do.
If they're not serious, I'll just say that when I pray I'm only talking to myself.