(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff277/josephpalazzo/Untitled.jpg) (http://s243.photobucket.com/user/josephpalazzo/media/Untitled.jpg.html)
I've wanted to read this book for a while, wonder if its on kindle.
I agree that there might well have been someone called jesus a long time ago, but that is where the whole jesus fact to myth ends. If he did exist, he was a cult figurehead who build a cult up in an effort to steamroll over the then existing religous cults in those regions.
And as people have said, if he did exist, jesus wouldn't have been a white, perfected skinned figure of grace, he'd have been another native to the middle east.
(http://i.imgur.com/fSGrJyL.jpg)
And yet, Christians keep saying our Founding Fathers were all Christians. If they rewrite history even now, what have they done to the past? Solitary
Quote from: Solitary on August 11, 2014, 10:26:27 AM
And yet, Christians keep saying our Founding Fathers were all Christians. If they rewrite history even now, what have they done to the past? Solitary
Throughout the intevening 2000 years, they have made errors in copying, removed some parts, and made additions along the way. And that's not including different translations that were made at different times, and changing the interpretation to fit with mindset of the day. If there is an element of historical truth left in the NT, finding it is like finding the proverbial needle in a stack of hay.
Does this count as atheist scripture?
We would have to wait 2000 years. The downside is we'll all be dead and won't see the rise of ATHEIST SCRIPTURE...
Quote from: Munch on August 11, 2014, 08:06:24 AM
I've wanted to read this book for a while, wonder if its on kindle.
It's on Audible. I have it on my iPhone and just listen to it in the car while I'm driving.
I don't see myself moving on to kindle. It's better for the environment, cheaper and easier to carry, but I still enjoy holding a real book so much.
I have the God Delusion, you're making me tempted to read it again.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on August 11, 2014, 11:26:15 AM
I don't see myself moving on to kindle. It's better for the environment, cheaper and easier to carry, but I still enjoy holding a real book so much.
I have the God Delusion, you're making me tempted to read it again.
Im wi you Mr O, id rather have a real book in my hand, havent read this either but think its about time i did so............soon..
I'm all for saving trees too, but i more prefer the ease of seeing a new book, and boom, got it in seconds ^^
Yeah. I downloaded the audio book a while back and finished it in a few days. It's very well done.
Although Jesus probably existed??? Seems like Dawkins is going out on a limb here. He may have existed... or not.
Quote from: SGOS on August 11, 2014, 01:30:58 PM
Although Jesus probably existed??? Seems like Dawkins is going out on a limb here. He may have existed... or not.
I'm sure Dawkins was just trying to make the point that biblical scholars don't use the bible as the reason for their "Jesus existed" speculation because even they think it's not reliable. Although.... to this day I have no clue what those outside references are or how ambiguous they are.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on August 11, 2014, 11:26:15 AM
I don't see myself moving on to kindle. It's better for the environment, cheaper and easier to carry, but I still enjoy holding a real book so much.
I have the God Delusion, you're making me tempted to read it again.
I have a Nook. If I want to hold a real book I check it out from the library.
Quote from: SGOS on August 11, 2014, 01:30:58 PM
Although Jesus probably existed??? Seems like Dawkins is going out on a limb here. He may have existed... or not.
I think he really did exist, like how Shoko Ashara, Joseph Smith and Marshall Herff Applewhite did, and he had followers write about his godly powers.
Quote from: Munch on August 11, 2014, 02:52:42 PM
I think he really did exist, like how Shoko Ashara, Joseph Smith and Marshall Herff Applewhite did, and he had followers write about his godly powers.
Can you cite that? I'd like to look in to that a bit more...
Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 11, 2014, 03:01:38 PM
Can you cite that? I'd like to look in to that a bit more...
Well like say I've not read dawkins book yet so will get to that. I'm more just theorizing, but wouldn't it be funny if you could discover that everything christianity is based on isn't from a divine scripture, but from a cult leader who wasn't even a pearly white diva. It feels like every time a creationist says to a scientist 'you can't prove the universe is more then 6000 years old cause you weren't there!', makes you feel like saying you can't prove jesus was what the bible says he is.
Of course I know the irony would be lost on such people.
Quote from: Munch on August 11, 2014, 03:08:58 PM
Well like say I've not read dawkins book yet so will get to that. I'm more just theorizing, but wouldn't it be funny if you could discover that everything christianity is based on isn't from a divine scripture, but from a cult leader who wasn't even a pearly white diva. It feels like every time a creationist says to a scientist 'you can't prove the universe is more then 6000 years old cause you weren't there!', makes you feel like saying you can't prove jesus was what the bible says he is.
Of course I know the irony would be lost on such people.
It's very likely that Christianity spawned from a cult leader, but I would say it was probably a cult leader like Joseph Smith that talked
about Jesus.... while tying his claims to already existing scripture. But I still say that claiming Jesus was a real life person is as much speculation as anything if there isn't any evidence for it.
Even what I said about Christianity is borderline speculation because I have no evidence of it; it's less of a claim and more of just saying that I have a hunch about it though based off of what we know about more contemporary cult leaders like Joseph Smith and L.Ron Hubbard.
Thats the wonderful thing about an analytical approach to things, wanting to find truth in something and questioning everything. Thats how I became an athiest to begin with ^^
Your right, it could just have well been a random guy who did a Joseph smith too, we could even put bets on what it was most likely, a man who wanted to become divine in the eyes of others, someone who wanted to make a cult so invented the character, maybe even a system of government who wanted to create there own laws, so put together there own myth to overthrow pre-existing ones like greek or roman.
Quote from: Munch on August 11, 2014, 03:28:15 PM
Thats the wonderful thing about an analytical approach to things, wanting to find truth in something and questioning everything. Thats how I became an athiest to begin with ^^
lol That's the truth! :biggrin:
I don't think Dawkins is going out on a limb when there is absolutely no evidence He existed during His time. :wall: Solitary
If a historical jesus existed, he was probably the Osama Bin Laden of his day.
Quote from: the_antithesis on August 11, 2014, 03:56:59 PM
If a historical jesus existed, he was probably the Osama Bin Laden of his day.
XD
Quote from: Munch on August 11, 2014, 03:28:15 PM
Thats the wonderful thing about an analytical approach to things, wanting to find truth in something and questioning everything. Thats how I became an athiest to begin with ^^
Your right, it could just have well been a random guy who did a Joseph smith too, we could even put bets on what it was most likely, a man who wanted to become divine in the eyes of others, someone who wanted to make a cult so invented the character, maybe even a system of government who wanted to create there own laws, so put together there own myth to overthrow pre-existing ones like greek or roman.
Or maybe he was like the character in
Monty Python's Life of Bryan who developed a following quite by accident.
Meh, I don't see any reason to believe that there wasn't a Jesus figure at the time; Israel was supposedly full of radicals who were fueled by the Roman occupation and other sorts of political and religious dissidents. He was probably one of the many nut-jobs running around who managed to make it to cult, and then religion, status... or perhaps a combination of several of their stories.
Think about how many people today claim to be Jesus reincarnate... you really think 2000 years ago there weren't people who would claim to be God's son and people wouldn't fall for it?
I keep asking for the "evidence" that fucking jesus existed. You know, the "evidence" that all these alleged "scholars" claim points to the aforementioned existence.
Somehow, it all comes back to the gospels which we know are a load of shit.
I'm still waiting.
Quote from: Shiranu on August 11, 2014, 04:47:01 PM
Meh, I don't see any reason to believe that there wasn't a Jesus figure at the time; Israel was supposedly full of radicals who were fueled by the Roman occupation and other sorts of political and religious dissidents. He was probably one of the many nut-jobs running around who managed to make it to cult, and then religion, status... or perhaps a combination of several of their stories.
Think about how many people today claim to be Jesus reincarnate... you really think 2000 years ago there weren't people who would claim to be God's son and people wouldn't fall for it?
No, there is no reason to not believe a Jesus figure existed. But as in all matters where evidence does not exist, the rational default position is not to assume anything. The only thing that counts is evidence. Anything else is irrelevant. From human observation we know that nut jobs make wild religious claims all the time, and these nut jobs are ignored by most everyone, even by Baptists and Jehovah's Witnesses. It's likely that such nut jobs have existed since man evolved, but that isn't evidence of existence.
A Jesus figure may or may not have existed. And even that admission is entirely irrelevant. The only reason that the question even exists is because the current mythology known as Christianity is so wide spread. In fact, the only thing that drives the question (among dimwits and religious scholars alike), comes down to the fallacy of the argument from numbers. There is nothing here to see. I will admit that the size of the following of believers is impressive. There is no question about that, but the size and commitment of the following is not evidence for existence, any more than that same phenomenon was one time evidence for Zuess.
Is it possible that the whole Jesus character was a composite of the best bits of the many Apocalyptic 'messiahs' and preachers that were supposedly around at the time? Strange that there is very little between the beginning of his life and the end, and that even the synoptic gospels have glaring discrepancies while being held by a lot of Xtians to be first-hand accounts.
Quote from: Munch on August 11, 2014, 08:06:24 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/fSGrJyL.jpg)
One of those guys is going to have a tough time at the boarding gate.
Quote from: Youssuf Ramadan on August 12, 2014, 08:02:05 AM
Is it possible that the whole Jesus character was a composite of the best bits of the many Apocalyptic 'messiahs' and preachers that were supposedly around at the time? Strange that there is very little between the beginning of his life and the end, and that even the synoptic gospels have glaring discrepancies while being held by a lot of Xtians to be first-hand accounts.
The missing parts of his life bothered me even as a little kid. How could chroniclers leave that out? It's not like he didn't become important and not worth following until he was an adult. From the moment of his birth, the Bible makes it clear that Baby Jesus was destined for greatness. Men of distinction came from great distances bearing gifts. They followed miracles in the night sky to find him.
What happens after that? Historians said, "Oh fuck it, I've got more important things to do than follow some pimple faced adolescent around for 20 years, even if he is the savior of mankind!" ???
Why did he fail to convert even one person who could read and write? He knew he was on the most important mission in the history of the planet and he didn't bother to make sure people would get his message straight.
Maybe scholars couldn't figure out how to write a character who had to deal with teen anxiety coupled with the fact his mom lived with a guy that wasn't his dad.
Quote from: SGOS on August 12, 2014, 09:38:59 AM
The missing parts of his life bothered me even as a little kid. How could chroniclers leave that out? It's not like he didn't become important and not worth following until he was an adult. From the moment of his birth, the Bible makes it clear that Baby Jesus was destined for greatness. Men of distinction came from great distances bearing gifts. They followed miracles in the night sky to find him.
What happens after that? Historians said, "Oh fuck it, I've got more important things to do than follow some pimple faced adolescent around for 20 years, even if he is the savior of mankind!" ???
There are actually stories about Jesus's childhood in the apocrypha.
Quote from: SGOS on August 12, 2014, 09:38:59 AM
The missing parts of his life bothered me even as a little kid. How could chroniclers leave that out? It's not like he didn't become important and not worth following until he was an adult. From the moment of his birth, the Bible makes it clear that Baby Jesus was destined for greatness. Men of distinction came from great distances bearing gifts. They followed miracles in the night sky to find him.
What happens after that? Historians said, "Oh fuck it, I've got more important things to do than follow some pimple faced adolescent around for 20 years, even if he is the savior of mankind!" ???
God hates pimples. It's as simple as that. :lol:
I read that book, page number or chapter number please.
Doesn't matter even if he did exist, it would merely mean a man started a new religion which later got successfully marketed. It would not make a human have magical super powers or make the God of the bible real.
Famous line from my brother when I handed him a copy of "Mormonism: Shadow or Reality"
"I'm not going to read that- it will hurt my testimony."
:doh: :axe:
Quote from: Hydra009 on August 12, 2014, 11:34:52 AM
There are actually stories about Jesus's childhood in the apocrypha.
... but nothing about his early adult life? There are some childhood stories in other gospels, Philip for one IIRC, that are even more ridiculous than anything in the standard gospels.... playing tricks on his friends, getting the even with his 'parents' for telling him off etc...
Quote from: Munch on August 12, 2014, 10:56:45 AM
Maybe scholars couldn't figure out how to write a character who had to deal with teen anxiety coupled with the fact his mom lived with a guy that wasn't his dad.
You have to realize that the concept of a "teenager" is a modern one. In the past, and in some countries still, a child was only a child until he/she reached puberty, usually around the age of 12 to 14. At that point, there were various rituals and rites performed to announce that the child had become a man or a woman; upon passing these trials, they officially entered the world of adulthood. Thus, a person was either a child or an adult. There was nothing in-between. Life was short and hard and people were expected to begin reproducing as soon as possible so they could raise sons to carry on the family name. At the age of 12, Jesus was almost entering manhood.