I don't think people should dislike people of wealth, but I don't think people should "respect" wealth, either, at least not to a very strong degree. The simple reason is that one person's wealth doesn't do much to help you unless it's being GIVEN to you. Until that person initiates a transfer of wealth, gives money to something you care about, or intimates that he/she is willing to do the same, that person is basically as useful to you as a hobo.
Our species is diverse so anything you set up as far as government has to allow for that diversity. Having said that, we are at a point in global history were wealth has too much power. No you cannot rid the world of the private sector. In fact, it is a myth that closed societies ban the private sector. Authoritarian states and theocracies still invest in the global market.
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My only beef with wealth is that the climate is far too much full of people who think money means they know what is best for non business owners. If we are diverse, and we are, they need to know that there is more than one class in society, and a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. Workers are humans, not numbers on a page.
I don't have a problem with wealth, but how much money does one need when they already have $10,000,000, and want more because they are so greedy and could care less how others live because they are so out of touch with them, and their own feelings too? Solitary
Quote from: Solitary on August 09, 2014, 10:31:17 AM
I don't have a problem with wealth, but how much money does one need when they already have $10,000,000, and want more because they are so greedy and could care less how others live because they are so out of touch with them, and their own feelings too? Solitary
I disagree with the last part of this statement. 10 million isn't as much money(to a business owner) as one would think. With wages, overhead, taxes, health insurance, power, water/sewage, trash pick up, and equipment repair/replacement in my 3 SMALL businesses 10 million would last about 2 years and then Id be broke. If you throw in the amount of sponsorships I give out drop that down to 1.5 years.
And then there is something else to be taken into consideration, some people(myself included) are never satisfied. I had the pleasure of meeting Joe Weider several times in my life(for those that don't know he co-founded the International Federation of BodyBuilders (IFBB) he was also the creator of the Mr. Olympia, the Ms. Olympia and the Masters Olympia bodybuilding contests amongst other things.) and the one thing that I took from meeting him is that I want to be bigger than he ever was. For me its not an ego or greed thing, its the challenge I have laid out for myself.
That's nice and all but there's something wrong with the world when 3% of the population controls most of the wealth. I also find beef with the fact that employers just plain don't want to pay fair wages to hard working employees. I see this going time and time again no appreciation from higher ups to the poor grunts that actually do the work.
I call minimum wage paid slavery because that's really what it is. Yeah its fine for a teenager but many employees are just average joes trying to stay employed at the only thing they know how to do or possibly the only job available to them. Finding work is hard enough finding work that pays a livable wage is even harder.
Quote from: doorknob on August 10, 2014, 10:35:11 AM
That's nice and all but there's something wrong with the world when 3% of the population controls most of the wealth. I also find beef with the fact that employers just plain don't want to pay fair wages to hard working employees. I see this going time and time again no appreciation from higher ups to the poor grunts that actually do the work.
I call minimum wage paid slavery because that's really what it is. Yeah its fine for a teenager but many employees are just average joes trying to stay employed at the only thing they know how to do or possibly the only job available to them. Finding work is hard enough finding work that pays a livable wage is even harder.
Perhaps, but those who are now the perpetrators of the current huge disparity in wages versus the oligarchy are not so much entrperneurs but the grand children of entrepreneurs, people who feel entitled. The strength of the middle class has always been the most important factor in the economic power of a country. By eroding unions and the middle class, they have set about creating the oligarchy we now face. In terms of application, the eroding middle class is much like recreating a pre- renaissance world of feudalism/serfdom where wage slaves are not given the chance to advance economically. Being wealthy is not the key factor. Entitlement is.
The Richard Bransons, Elon Musks and other newly wealthy got that way through innovation and imagination and have not sought to put down their fellows to do so. Becoming wealthy should be about personal challenge and through creative efforts. That is what fueled the Renaissance. And I have every respect for Moral and others who seek to create for themselves wealth based on effort and the application of their ideas in the real world. We need people like that to move us forward, they are an essential ingredient to progress.
Wealth does not automatically equal morality anymore than race or religion do.
Right but not every one has access to the same resources to become an entrepreneurs or even if they had the ambition or the know how to do it. Not every one is given the same set of cards to play with. Some people get pure shit of a set up. While I'm not saying that's the wealthy's fault necessarily but their unwillingness to pay fair wages throws fuel on the fire. programs could be put into place that would help also. But no one gives a shit until they fall into that position.
Quote from: doorknob on August 10, 2014, 11:09:18 AM
Right but not every one has access to the same resources to become an entrepreneurs or even if they had the ambition or the know how to do it. Not every one is given the same set of cards to play with. Some people get pure shit of a set up. While I'm not saying that's the wealthy's fault necessarily but their unwillingness to pay fair wages throws fuel on the fire. programs could be put into place that would help also. But no one gives a shit until they fall into that position.
But again its about entitlement and not wealth per se. You can cite individuals who used their wealth to help others to climb the ladder. One example that comes to mind is Lincoln Electric, a company you never hear of. Lincoln is an old company that makes welding equipment. Their business model is profit sharing and has been very successful. Their employees are among the most motivated and have the least sick leave time of virtually any company, they play a part in business decisions and the company is a model of efficiency and success. There are other better example I am sure.
The point is that certain powerful people want to perpetrate their power and enlarge it, and have no concern for those they employ. The Koch brothers being the prime example. They are 3rd generation, born wealthy and want to disempower the middle and lower classes just to create more wealth for themselves. Again, wealth per se is not the cause so much as the means to do what they want.
The way Lincoln Electric does business, and Columbia Sports Wear, is by definition communism, and yet people think it and socialism are wrong. Communism: social organization in which goods are held in common. Solitary
Quote from: doorknob on August 10, 2014, 11:09:18 AM
Right but not every one has access to the same resources to become an entrepreneurs or even if they had the ambition or the know how to do it. Not every one is given the same set of cards to play with. Some people get pure shit of a set up. While I'm not saying that's the wealthy's fault necessarily but their unwillingness to pay fair wages throws fuel on the fire. programs could be put into place that would help also. But no one gives a shit until they fall into that position.
The only resources I had when I started out was a willingness to be punched in the face for money. It turned out that I could hit people really really hard too. That made me a fairly good Muay Thai fighter. I turned that over MANY years into 1 training gym. Then I hooked up with the UFC for my second gym. Then I just finished construction on my third gym, this one a weights only gym.
I got there by living tight for several years and starting small(literally I rented out a storage locker for the first "gym" when I first started out). Starting out most business failures are due to either poor planning or starting with too much debt. To start a successful business you don't need a huge space, the best equipment, or a shitload of backing cash. All you really need is a good idea and the time to put into it.
Quote from: Moralnihilist on August 10, 2014, 03:31:59 PM
The only resources I had when I started out was a willingness to be punched in the face for money. It turned out that I could hit people really really hard too. That made me a fairly good Muay Thai fighter. I turned that over MANY years into 1 training gym. Then I hooked up with the UFC for my second gym. Then I just finished construction on my third gym, this one a weights only gym.
I got there by living tight for several years and starting small(literally I rented out a storage locker for the first "gym" when I first started out). Starting out most business failures are due to either poor planning or starting with too much debt. To start a successful business you don't need a huge space, the best equipment, or a shitload of backing cash. All you really need is a good idea and the time to put into it.
This is exactly what I'm talking about.
Btw, Lincoln Electric has been accused of being socialistic, but read their business model.
http://changingwinds.wordpress.com/2010/09/06/why-lincoln-electric-may-be-the-model-for-saving-america%E2%80%99s-manufacturing-sector-a-review-of-frank-koller%E2%80%99s-book-%E2%80%9Cspark%E2%80%9D/
QuoteLincoln Electric, founded in 1895 by John C. Lincoln, operates on old-fashioned values: trust, flexibility, loyalty and being paid fairly. Sounds pretty common sense. There’s more. This is a company of some 3,000 employees, who can call the CEO when they have an idea or a suggestion or where management doesn’t have special perksâ€"such as parking spaces or a special cafeteria. Hmmmm. Sounds suspicious. Doesn’t management deserve special perks? Or is that what has been ingrained our collective thinking in recent years? And what has happened to those companies that have enthusiastically embraced this mindset? From boom to bust for many of them. Witness the layoff rampage stemming from the Great Recession.
QuoteJohn Lincoln was only 29, with a wife and two young kids, when he was turfed from his job of building electric motors in Cleveland, Ohio. A financial panic in 1893 had pulled down the U.S. economy (sound familiar?) leaving millions of Americans out of work. Lincoln struck out on his own, taking the gamble to open the Lincoln Electric Company.
Through hard work, constant innovation and good-old American persistence, Lincoln built his company steadily. It was when the gasoline engine surpassed the electric car in the early 1900s that Lincoln realized that the technology he possessed had huge potential. As Frank Koller explains: “The powerful electrical current produced by his motor generator unit could do much more than charge a car batteryâ€"it could also create an arc of electricity hot enough to melt steel.â€
That is what I'm talking about. Lincoln electric produces the best quality welding equipment at competitive prices and has the highest employee loyalty of any company. This isn't wealth in the traditional sense, but it is success, and at every level.
Quote from: Moralnihilist on August 10, 2014, 08:00:37 AM
I disagree with the last part of this statement. 10 million isn't as much money(to a business owner) as one would think. With wages, overhead, taxes, health insurance, power, water/sewage, trash pick up, and equipment repair/replacement in my 3 SMALL businesses 10 million would last about 2 years and then Id be broke. If you throw in the amount of sponsorships I give out drop that down to 1.5 years.
And then there is something else to be taken into consideration, some people(myself included) are never satisfied. I had the pleasure of meeting Joe Weider several times in my life(for those that don't know he co-founded the International Federation of BodyBuilders (IFBB) he was also the creator of the Mr. Olympia, the Ms. Olympia and the Masters Olympia bodybuilding contests amongst other things.) and the one thing that I took from meeting him is that I want to be bigger than he ever was. For me its not an ego or greed thing, its the challenge I have laid out for myself.
Nope sorry, if you cannot survive off of 10 million you are an idiot. We are not talking about money used to run the business we are talking about the salary of one individual. Any thing that person does on the clock can be written off as a business expense which the company pays for. His personal salary is separate and there is not one place, not even Manhattan where you could not find a place to live or pay your bills on 10 million.
Quote from: Solitary on August 10, 2014, 11:46:15 AM
The way Lincoln Electric does business, and Columbia Sports Wear, is by definition communism, and yet people think it and socialism are wrong. Communism: social organization in which goods are held in common. Solitary
This implies that state-bureaucratic socialism that you saw under Lenin was anything like those companies, that a state bureaucracy would behave anything like them if it wasn't subject to market pressures and the rule of law.
I don't hate a single person for the fact that they are wealthy. I've talked to several wealthy individuals and they have been pleasant people for the most part.
What I despise are what some people do to get that wealth, what some people do to keep that wealth, and what some people do to other people just because they have that wealth. What I hate is the culture of "fuck you, got mine" that is currently ingrained among some of the wealthy. It makes me fucking rage that the Waltons are among the richest families in the world, with a company that makes many billions in profits, yet they cost taxpayers several billion dollars a year because they won't pay their employees a living wage.
I don't hate the wealthy at all, I just don't think that sociopaths should be given that much power.
Quote from: Brian37 on August 10, 2014, 11:04:20 PM
Nope sorry, if you cannot survive off of 10 million you are an idiot. We are not talking about money used to run the business we are talking about the salary of one individual. Any thing that person does on the clock can be written off as a business expense which the company pays for. His personal salary is separate and there is not one place, not even Manhattan where you could not find a place to live or pay your bills on 10 million.
Wanna bet?
Seriously in todays economy, with the average lifetime expectancy, the cost of medical care, food, transportation, housing, and a host of hundreds of other small things 10 million simply isn't that much anymore. Fuck I could blow 10 million in one transaction.
And let me address the "well invest it dumbass" argument I hear coming....
The stock market is erratic, cd's pay shit for interest, precious metals are just as risky, banks have proven their ineptitude at managing money, real estate... good luck with that. Get the point?
I suggest you do some real estate shopping in San Francisco or the Hamptons before you say that. If you lived a relatively frugal life, sure. But people with that kind of money usually don't.
Quote from: Moralnihilist on August 10, 2014, 08:00:37 AM
I disagree with the last part of this statement. 10 million isn't as much money(to a business owner) as one would think. With wages, overhead, taxes, health insurance, power, water/sewage, trash pick up, and equipment repair/replacement in my 3 SMALL businesses 10 million would last about 2 years and then Id be broke. If you throw in the amount of sponsorships I give out drop that down to 1.5 years.
And then there is something else to be taken into consideration, some people(myself included) are never satisfied. I had the pleasure of meeting Joe Weider several times in my life(for those that don't know he co-founded the International Federation of BodyBuilders (IFBB) he was also the creator of the Mr. Olympia, the Ms. Olympia and the Masters Olympia bodybuilding contests amongst other things.) and the one thing that I took from meeting him is that I want to be bigger than he ever was. For me its not an ego or greed thing, its the challenge I have laid out for myself.
Really? I know who Joe Weider is, I was a body builder when younger. It's not a ego thing? You're kidding yourself. Wanting more is not a problem, at any cost is? $10,000,000 is not enough for a business? I ran a construction company for way less. Look it up Lindblad Construction Co. on the internet. I also had a warehouse. I no longer own it now, but they use the name. It's in Joliet Illinois. Solitary
Quote from: Solitary on August 29, 2014, 03:23:12 PM
Really? I know who Joe Weider is, I was a body builder when younger. It's not a ego thing? You're kidding yourself. Wanting more is not a problem, at any cost is? $10,000,000 is not enough for a business? I ran a construction company for way less. Look it up Lindblad Construction Co. on the internet. I also had a warehouse. I no longer own it now, but they use the name. It's in Joliet Illinois. Solitary
Its not an ego thing for me. I enjoy the challenge of opening and running several businesses(albeit of a similar type). And in regards of the 10 million not being enough I took into account all the bills and current salary of my employees, bonuses, monthly bills, and the promoting of a small amateur muay thai competitions. So yes I would easily burn through 10 million(without an influx of income).
The notion that anyone can succeed with hard work alone is bullshit. I ran a few businesses myself, the last one being the scrap metal business and you can't tell me hard work alone is enough. You're gonna be damn fuck pressed to find a job where you can work harder than scrap metal. It's often 15-18 hour days in the hot sun and some days you're going to barely break even. I can remember when sheet iron prices dropped from $75 a ton to under $10 a ton, copper skyrocketed and copper theives were getting electrocuted and cities arbitrarily imposed severe restrictions on selling copper and aluminum to the point that I needed documentation to sell a strand of copper wire. My truck at the time only held a half ton so all I could earn with sheet iron was $5 a full load in a good day till it drove me out and into selling appliances which worked out, but only because I knew guys who literally gave me free working appliances.. Try hauling refrigerators up and down steps all day in 120° weather and tell me you can work harder..
And I had to compete with hundreds and hundreds of others in the same business willing to work for even less and who would gladly steal any and everything off my truck..
No, hard work and desire isn't always enough because there are international interests at work trying to undermine everyone else and it's more cut throat than ever.
Bully for you miralnihilist for being able to take a punch. So those who can't take a punch, tough shit? You're more deserving because of genetic lottery winnings? I have a glass jaw and have had it broken before..
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on August 29, 2014, 08:38:42 PMBully for you miralnihilist for being able to take a punch. So those who can't take a punch, tough shit? You're more deserving because of genetic lottery winnings? I have a glass jaw and have had it broken before..
First off, go fuck yourself. I have never claimed that I deserve more because of my abilities.
15 hour days? I do those every fucking day. You aren't the only person on this planet to have put in a long hard day at work. Fuck while my business was starting I worked construction as a damn laborer(i.e. not the guy with the hammer but the guy moving shit by hand all damn day). And after all day of doing that THEN I went to my gym for several hours and trained people.
ALL of my employees have full company paid for(read this as I pay for) benefits, a well above livable wage, and a boss who actually gives a shit about them as people.
I have no problem with anybody wealthy who have worked hard mibbe all their lives for what they have, good luck to them.
But others who mite be ''worth a few quid, who look down their noses at everybody else that they deem as beneath them , these people deserve no respect at all.
Im talking about people who are born into money, the upper class, snobs, stuck up arseholes, the world is full of them.
they never will work a day in their priveleged lives but will be handed everything they will ever want or need, fkn sickenin.
Quote from: Moralnihilist on August 11, 2014, 08:33:45 PMSeriously in todays economy, with the average lifetime expectancy, the cost of medical care, food, transportation, housing, and a host of hundreds of other small things 10 million simply isn't that much anymore. Fuck I could blow 10 million in one transaction.
It all depends on the cost of living, the number of dependents, and the amount of discretionary spending, but most figures I've seen are nowhere near that. Considering that most Americans do actually live on far less (i.e. do not earn $10 million in their lifetime), it's not unreasonable to assume that one's lifetime expenses will be less than $10 million.
I know just enough about Moral's business to know how hard it can be. I spent some time with a guy years ago who franchised a Gold's Gym, and that is an established business. It took a lot of time for him to get it going, and he had many risks involved from building the gym to equipping it and gaining clientele, this for an established franchise. I was working out there in the morning before going to work. It was a surprise to me that he was there that early in the morning, and still there when the place closed at night.
When we are talking wealth, the means to get it is very much the point. Moral has had to work very hard to achieve what he has, and I respect that. I respect the Richard Bransons and the Elon Musks who build from scratch. But the other wealth, the enabled and established wealth, the Waltons and the Koch brothers is another story. That these people who are 2nd 3rd and 4th generation who were born into wealth who can manipulate politically and think of their employees as drones to be paid minimum wage and given as few benefits as possible. This is the wealth that destroys, not builds. They do not get my respect and they do not deserve it.
Quote from: Moralnihilist on August 30, 2014, 09:12:13 AM
First off, go fuck yourself. I have never claimed that I deserve more because of my abilities.
15 hour days? I do those every fucking day. You aren't the only person on this planet to have put in a long hard day at work. Fuck while my business was starting I worked construction as a damn laborer(i.e. not the guy with the hammer but the guy moving shit by hand all damn day). And after all day of doing that THEN I went to my gym for several hours and trained people.
ALL of my employees have full company paid for(read this as I pay for) benefits, a well above livable wage, and a boss who actually gives a shit about them as people.
Yeah, go fuck yourself too asshole. So you work long hours. Yippie.. Most people do work long hours, but the whole thing went right over your head as usual as you pat yourself on the back. So you've built your empire on beating the shit out of people. Am I supposed to be awe struck?
Come on, guys. Keep calm and...uhh...keep calm.
Quote from: Moralnihilist on August 29, 2014, 06:53:54 PM
Its not an ego thing for me. I enjoy the challenge of opening and running several businesses(albeit of a similar type). And in regards of the 10 million not being enough I took into account all the bills and current salary of my employees, bonuses, monthly bills, and the promoting of a small amateur muay thai competitions. So yes I would easily burn through 10 million(without an influx of income).
So explain to me why I was able to do what you can't with less than a million. It's the challenge but not a ego thing: Right! I heard a billionaire on Bill Maher's show say the exact same thing---it's all about ego and one up-man-ship, and competition to be the richest.. You could have one business, but you have to keep expanding as a challenge and you say it's not ego. Give me a break. "without an influx of income" But that's just the point, you do have an income from your businesses. And let's not forget about the estimated profit for the year, and when it doesn't happen write it off on your taxes. And how about your company car? If you can't start a business with $10,000,000 dollars you need a better lawyer and business manager. My son and his girlfriend started an electronic firm in California with nothing and a loan, they are looking at a Porsche Panamerica that will be written off as an expense because it will be a company car. They both take in over $100,000 a year. Just think what they could do with $10,000,000. Solitary
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on August 29, 2014, 08:38:42 PM
The notion that anyone can succeed with hard work alone is bullshit. I ran a few businesses myself, the last one being the scrap metal business and you can't tell me hard work alone is enough. You're gonna be damn fuck pressed to find a job where you can work harder than scrap metal. It's often 15-18 hour days in the hot sun and some days you're going to barely break even. I can remember when sheet iron prices dropped from $75 a ton to under $10 a ton, copper skyrocketed and copper theives were getting electrocuted and cities arbitrarily imposed severe restrictions on selling copper and aluminum to the point that I needed documentation to sell a strand of copper wire. My truck at the time only held a half ton so all I could earn with sheet iron was $5 a full load in a good day till it drove me out and into selling appliances which worked out, but only because I knew guys who literally gave me free working appliances.. Try hauling refrigerators up and down steps all day in 120° weather and tell me you can work harder..
And I had to compete with hundreds and hundreds of others in the same business willing to work for even less and who would gladly steal any and everything off my truck..
No, hard work and desire isn't always enough because there are international interests at work trying to undermine everyone else and it's more cut throat than ever.
Bully for you miralnihilist for being able to take a punch. So those who can't take a punch, tough shit? You're more deserving because of genetic lottery winnings? I have a glass jaw and have had it broken before..
I agree and I never said that! I said with $10,000,000 dollars to start with and live on. You couldn't live on $10,000,000 dollars. Just because he has to keep challenging himself does not mean he couldn't live on $10,000,000. He's a body builder and says it is not about ego, just like Arnold, who is a politician now. By the way, I did work hard and made it because I had the best union people working for me. Small companies have taken a hit by big companies that hire anyone to do their work, as long as they don't have to pay them much. Also, the question was who cannot live 0n $10,000,000 dollars, not how much it takes to run a company. Nothing like changing the subject at hand.
Quote from: Solitary on August 30, 2014, 02:22:01 PM
So explain to me why I was able to do what you can't with less than a million. It's the challenge but not a ego thing: Right! I heard a billionaire on Bill Maher's show say the exact same thing---it's all about ego and one up-man-ship, and competition to be the richest.. You could have one business, but you have to keep expanding as a challenge and you say it's not ego. Give me a break. "without an influx of income" But that's just the point, you do have an income from your businesses. And let's not forget about the estimated profit for the year, and when it doesn't happen write it off on your taxes. And how about your company car? If you can't start a business with $10,000,000 dollars you need a better lawyer and business manager. My son and his girlfriend started an electronic firm in California with nothing and a loan, they are looking at a Porsche Panamerica that will be written off as an expense because it will be a company car. They both take in over $100,000 a year. Just think what they could do with $10,000,000. Solitary
I started my first company with less than $10,000.00 to my name. I don't bother with a company car. My newest gym took over a million to open owing to buying the building and equipment up front.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on August 30, 2014, 01:49:06 PM
Yeah, go fuck yourself too asshole. So you work long hours. Yippie.. Most people do work long hours, but the whole thing went right over your head as usual as you pat yourself on the back. So you've built your empire on beating the shit out of people. Am I supposed to be awe struck?
Look I don't know what the fuck your problem is but frankly I don't give a shit. You are nothing more than a bitter old loser who resents those that have pulled themselves up from nothing. My family was frequently on food stamps when I was growing up, there were several times that we were evicted from our own home. I started fighting because there was a tough man tourney at the bar I was bar backing at and I hadn't eaten in 3 days. It was fight and win or don't eat.
Im not one of those rich assholes that forgot what its like to have to work for a living. I don't take advantage of my financial situation(in fact I give most of it to charity). Do I have nicer things than most people? Yes. Does this automatically make me some sort of villain? No. Do I expect some sort of praise for this? Again no.
So again apa I invite you to go fuck yourself.
Yeah...
My take on this is that no one needs more than $10 million in wealth if all you're doing is sitting on it and spending it on yourself. While it may not seem like much to the peckerhead top 1%, this is like having a salary of $100,000 over a century for one person. At most 93% of people in this country never see that kind of salary even for a few years, let alone a century. I could live very comfortably off of that kind of wealth.
That said, I do agree with Moral here. His wealth is doing stuff for people other than himself. A business (even a failing one) is still a huge asset, and owning one would easily raise your wealth over a few million quite easily. Managing your business's spending puts you on a whole different scale than a personal household budget. As such, I don't really find a problem with how Moral apportions his wealth.
The problem comes from rich little rich boys and girls born into wealth and simply can't fathom having to live on less than $1 million a year. Fuck them. MOST people live on much less than that and quite well, thank you.
Wow. Well that escalated quickly...
OK, last broad statement and I'm done. This nation was founded by entrepreneurs. The Americas were the land of opportunity in a very big way back in the 15th and 16th century. People like T. Jefferson and G. Washington and B. Franklin were believers in new ideas because the had the latitude and freedom to do so. At least one reason for the Revolutionary War was the fact that the Brits were crimping their style.
Everything about our history has been about entreprenurial efforts by men to build their dreams. "Men To Match My Mountains" by Irving Stone tells of the "winning" of the American West, and it is a good example of what I'm talking about. Easterners came to California looking for Gold, William Randolph Hearst's daddy George built a mining empire, Brigham Young carved out his own empire in Utah and the Great Basin.
A good example of what I am talking about is the Hearsts. George was a ruthless man (See "Deadwood" when it comes back on) who built an empire on mining, and also owned the San Francisco Examiner newspaper. WR took over the Examiner and built the largest publishing empire of its day and was one of the most powerful men in America, and the richest.
It was wealth, and wealth wrested from not only ceaseless effort but also cuththroat dealings and manipulations. Btw, WR is one reason you're not smoking pot right now. He was one of the people that campaigned against Marijuana and Hemp because hemp would have made cheaper paper, and WR Hearst owned major timber concerns that supplied the paper that was being used by the newspapers. Control was what he sought, to divert money to his coffers and denying that right to others.
Entrepreneurship built a nation. Now we have a society that is controlled not by the entrepreneurs but their grandchildren and great grandchildren, 3rd and 4th generation offspring who grew up in wealth and believe they alone understand it and control it. The Koch brothers have no problem denying fair wages to their employees and denying their rights to arbitrate a fair wage because they think their employees are drones to be used as they see fit.
And it means nothing to them that their wealth is inherited and what they have built is based solely on that. If anything, entrepreneurship has been stifled by people like them. Wealth should be the result of your efforts, not a weapon to control and deny the same opportunities to others. More power to Moral and any other man who wants to build his dreams and be wealthy. That is about as American as it gets, and I don't see anything wrong with it.
Quote from: Moralnihilist on August 30, 2014, 06:38:16 PM
I started my first company with less than $10,000.00 to my name. I don't bother with a company car. My newest gym took over a million to open owing to buying the building and equipment up front.
Look I don't know what the fuck your problem is but frankly I don't give a shit. You are nothing more than a bitter old loser who resents those that have pulled themselves up from nothing. My family was frequently on food stamps when I was growing up, there were several times that we were evicted from our own home. I started fighting because there was a tough man tourney at the bar I was bar backing at and I hadn't eaten in 3 days. It was fight and win or don't eat.
Im not one of those rich assholes that forgot what its like to have to work for a living. I don't take advantage of my financial situation(in fact I give most of it to charity). Do I have nicer things than most people? Yes. Does this automatically make me some sort of villain? No. Do I expect some sort of praise for this? Again no.
So again apa I invite you to go fuck yourself.
So the questions I'm asking you now is: If you had no assets what-so-ever, would you be able to live on $10,000,000 dollars or not? If not, why would that not be enough? Also, giving to charity, that you seem so proud of to mention it, is a tax right off. Solitary
With zero responsibilities and assets. I could live easily on 10million. But my personality would make me want to start a business. But to stick to the question asked, yes 10 million is more than enough to live on.
Thank you! :wink2: :biggrin: Solitary
Quote from: stromboli on August 30, 2014, 08:40:53 PM
OK, last broad statement and I'm done. This nation was founded by entrepreneurs. The Americas were the land of opportunity in a very big way back in the 15th and 16th century. People like T. Jefferson and G. Washington and B. Franklin were believers in new ideas because the had the latitude and freedom to do so. At least one reason for the Revolutionary War was the fact that the Brits were crimping their style.
Everything about our history has been about entreprenurial efforts by men to build their dreams. "Men To Match My Mountains" by Irving Stone tells of the "winning" of the American West, and it is a good example of what I'm talking about. Easterners came to California looking for Gold, William Randolph Hearst's daddy George built a mining empire, Brigham Young carved out his own empire in Utah and the Great Basin.
A good example of what I am talking about is the Hearsts. George was a ruthless man (See "Deadwood" when it comes back on) who built an empire on mining, and also owned the San Francisco Examiner newspaper. WR took over the Examiner and built the largest publishing empire of its day and was one of the most powerful men in America, and the richest.
It was wealth, and wealth wrested from not only ceaseless effort but also cuththroat dealings and manipulations. Btw, WR is one reason you're not smoking pot right now. He was one of the people that campaigned against Marijuana and Hemp because hemp would have made cheaper paper, and WR Hearst owned major timber concerns that supplied the paper that was being used by the newspapers. Control was what he sought, to divert money to his coffers and denying that right to others.
So basically overregulation motivated by corporate lobbying is the problem, which is something I agree with.
Not just overregulation. Underregulation is bad, too.
I think a more distributed, Internet-based system of inspection would be good for society. It would be both less arbitrary than government-based inspection and much more rigorous simply by virtue of there being more eyes on the system. Kind of like Yelp, but more sophisticated.
Quote from: zarus tathra on September 04, 2014, 05:45:51 AM
I think a more distributed, Internet-based system of inspection would be good for society. It would be both less arbitrary than government-based inspection and much more rigorous simply by virtue of there being more eyes on the system. Kind of like Yelp, but more sophisticated.
I think hackers would agree with you.
I think that it isn't the money a person has that deserves respect(i.e. just because someone is wealthy they deserve respect), but its what they did to earn said money and what they do with the money that is deserving of respect or contempt. If a person built their wealth from the ground up through hard work, careful planning, and a bit of luck. That is respectable. If a person inherited their wealth and does nothing more with it than try to buy their way into favorable positions, that is contemptible. If a person inherited their wealth and does nothing more with it than party and act like an ass, to me at least, that is beyond despicable. If you inherit your money and use it to bully your employees, that is the most disgusting offense one could commit with money.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 30, 2014, 07:57:57 PM
Wow. Well that escalated quickly...
Well, look who started the thread. Now what do you suppose was the desired outcome?
People respond to incentives. That is what economics is based on. If people aren't responding to it, by definition, it is not an incentive. We can incentivise wonderful things or awful things, and much of the time we are not even aware of what we are really incentivizing.
I'm pro-capitalism (setting aside some resources to invest in increasing resources later), but despite starting with the letter 'c', corporatism and consumerism are not synonyms for capitalism. Capitalism can be a great force for prosperity, but what it produces is heavily influenced by government policy. If the results we're getting aren't to our liking, it's very probable that our policies are the root cause. And when an economic policy isn't having the result we think it should have, we should seriously consider the possibility that it doesn't work, at least under certain circumstances.
Quote from: Icarus on September 04, 2014, 07:33:56 AM
I think hackers would agree with you.
I've never gotten a virus over a p2p system. You're much more likely to get one from church websites. And I don't see why a sophisticated version of Yelp would be a breeding ground for viruses.
Quote from: zarus tathra on September 04, 2014, 05:45:51 AM
I think a more distributed, Internet-based system of inspection would be good for society. It would be both less arbitrary than government-based inspection and much more rigorous simply by virtue of there being more eyes on the system. Kind of like Yelp, but more sophisticated.
I have several issues with this.
1. If you are intending to only have the wealthy on this "yelp like thing" then Fuck You my own money is none of your fucking business.
2. If you want everyone to have their finances plastered all over this supposedly secure website, then double fuck you if you don't think that would not become hacker central.
3. If you are suggesting that only businesses put their financial information on this website, then fuck you with a rusty chainsaw if you don't think that hackers don't want that information.
And finally...
4. If you(or frankly anyone else) think that you have a right to anyone else's PERSONAL financial information, then double fuck you in the ass with a rusty chainsaw while whistling dixie. There is a reason its called PERSONAL financial information.
What? No, I meant a system for factory and restaurant inspections and shit. For finance Bitcoin or some kind of reputation based service would suffice.
Quote from: zarus tathra on September 09, 2014, 05:14:17 PM
What? No, I meant a system for factory and restaurant inspections and shit. For finance Bitcoin or some kind of reputation based service would suffice.
Again, if you suggest that a website that is full of business financial information would be immune to hackers, you are beyond retarded. A localized site for all financial information of all major corporations would be under attack from the moment it launched until every last drop of cash was pulled from those companies.
And Bitcoin has no security whatsoever, as proven by many many attacks on the system. No, obscurity is not the same as security.
Quote from: Solitary on August 09, 2014, 10:31:17 AM
I don't have a problem with wealth, but how much money does one need when they already have $10,000,000, and want more because they are so greedy and could care less how others live because they are so out of touch with them, and their own feelings too? Solitary
I gotta go with Moralnihilist, 10 mil really isn't that much for a business owner, and most people that have that type of money are business owners. I would say if we were going to put a number on when your wealth becomes absurd that number should be around >1 billion
Nobody seems to want to separate personal wealth from corporate wealth. If anyone believes they simply can't get by on 10 million in personal wealth they're fucking insane. Contrary to SCOTUS's opinion corporations are not people, they're legal entities of fiat.. The majority share holders are responsible to all other share holders and the legal entity. Anyone with a ten million dollar company that isn't incorporated is a goddamn fool and everyone should know if someone in the corporation who tries to run off with all the loot they are or should be held criminally liable and we have a trainload of criminals currently running corporations and bribing officials to make robbery perfectly legal.
Quote from: MagetheEntertainer on September 19, 2014, 11:27:09 PM
I gotta go with Moralnihilist, 10 mil really isn't that much for a business owner, and most people that have that type of money are business owners. I would say if we were going to put a number on when your wealth becomes absurd that number should be around >1 billion
1 billion isn't that absurd if you run a ginormous company. And honestly, I don't hate Microsoft that much in spite of being a Linux user because without Microsoft the desktop would either be a totally unviable platform or be overrun by totally closed, monopolistic companies like Apple. At least with Microsoft we have an ecosystem of independent hardware manufacturers.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on September 21, 2014, 10:04:51 AM
Nobody seems to want to separate personal wealth from corporate wealth. If anyone believes they simply can't get by on 10 million in personal wealth they're fucking insane. Contrary to SCOTUS's opinion corporations are not people, they're legal entities of fiat.. The majority share holders are responsible to all other share holders and the legal entity. Anyone with a ten million dollar company that isn't incorporated is a goddamn fool and everyone should know if someone in the corporation who tries to run off with all the loot they are or should be held criminally liable and we have a trainload of criminals currently running corporations and bribing officials to make robbery perfectly legal.
The thing that you seem to be missing is that MOST smaller business owners finances are directly tied into the company that they own.
Quote from: zarus tathra on September 21, 2014, 01:52:44 PM
1 billion isn't that absurd if you run a ginormous company. And honestly, I don't hate Microsoft that much in spite of being a Linux user because without Microsoft the desktop would either be a totally unviable platform or be overrun by totally closed, monopolistic companies like Apple. At least with Microsoft we have an ecosystem of independent hardware manufacturers.
Apple
IS a hardware manufacturer, been so since day 1. It's principally out there to get you to buy their
hardware. Apple is under no obligation to support its
compeditors' hardware.
Quote from: Moralnihilist on September 21, 2014, 04:48:42 PM
The thing that you seem to be missing is that MOST smaller business owners finances are directly tied into the company that they own.
And generally were not really talking about the corner grocery or bar, but even most are corporations of one sort or the other to limit personal liability. If you're assuming all personal risk and liability running a gym you're dumber than I initially thought.. Mind boggling stupid if you are..
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on September 21, 2014, 05:44:03 PM
And generally were not really talking about the corner grocery or bar, but even most are corporations of one sort or the other to limit personal liability. If you're assuming all personal risk and liability running a gym you're dumber than I initially thought.. Mind boggling stupid if you are..
The company itself is a corporation. However most of my "wealth", aside from my home and cars, is tied up into the business. Thats how small business fund themselves. But I have no idea why I would expect you to know this as you seem to only want to make uneducated claims. Every time I open a new gym its a personal risk. I own the company outright. There are no shareholders in my businesses, only me. If it fails my money is gone. Fortunately I know how to invest my money carefully in my business.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on September 21, 2014, 04:53:58 PM
Apple IS a hardware manufacturer, been so since day 1. It's principally out there to get you to buy their hardware. Apple is under no obligation to support its compeditors' hardware.
Which is why I praised Microsoft.
Don't you remember the anti-trust case Microsoft was hit with around 2000? It was charged with using its monopoly power to force its Windows users to use Microsoft Explorer and by that, dominating the web browser market, and otherwise maintaining its monopoly power over the PC market. Nothing I have seen from the company since has been particularly praiseworthy.
The iOS is just a proprietary operating system made for a particular machine line. Same with the MacOS. There is nothing 'monopolisitc' about that. Apple hardly dominates the smart phone market or the personal computer market, so it is by definition not a monopoly. Proprietary code is everywhere in every program that is not open source; if Apple is a monopoly because it uses proprietary, closed code, then just about every other computer and programming company is, too. Including Microsoft.
Unless you meant by "closed," closed system. Well, for the original Mac, the computer housing also housed the CRT, which as any electrical simpleton could tell you is a very dangerous thing to mess with. The original Apple was an open system, as was every Mac that didn't also house the display (which uniformly contain high-voltage components that your average consumer shouldn't be messing with for safety reasons) â€" every plain box CPU Mac was an open system. Modern Macs tend to be engineered tight, which doesn't leave much room for error so you are highly recommended not to mess with it, as are the laptops, but even then they expose some expansion slots.
As for the iOS, Apple has implemented a "security first" strategy for that system to delay as much as possible the infestation of malware into the iOS ecosystem. The iOS apps you get through the iTunes store is vetted for malware, which doesn't come free so Apple has to take a cut, if your app isn't free.
I agree that Microsoft making open source possible was probably not their intention and would certainly have never happened if they could do anything about it.
Open source was not "made possible" by Microsoft. Open source has been in existence in one form or another since the invention of computers. It was only in 1997 when it was formalized as a software development principle, but people had been sharing software code since long before the invention of the microcomputer. There's a reason why the C compiler exists for just about every operating system; it's code was itself written in C and was cross-compiled to many systems, and that code was shared.