When I watched this.... I felt a feeling I didn't even expect. Not fright or anger.... but sad. I felt sad for them... that they have such fear and hate for the things they do and in the way they do. It's really upsetting to see how it happens over there and it's upsetting to see it happen with religion here.
https://news.vice.com/video/the-islamic-state-part-2
I won't even read about it anymore. It's just too horrible.
I feel sorry the water supply is being cut off. I wouldn't do that even to a Muslim I disagreed with. The sad thing is that would they say or do the same for me?
I get sick of watching this type of news though because there's not much I can do about it.
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on August 08, 2014, 10:12:25 PM
I won't even read about it anymore. It's just too horrible.
My pastafarian friend shared this on facebook. I was ready to be pissed off and frustrated like I usually am at these things, but when I saw the video.... it's just.... fuck.
Not to mention that when I watched it, I was thinking of all the parallels that religion in the western culture has with it (mostly xtians and their "warriors of god")
It just makes me sad. I kind of wish I hadn't watched it because of how sad it made me, but at the same time, I'm glad I watched it because it made me re-realize what causes my distaste for religion: all the horrible hate and fear and mindless violence it ingrains in people at a young age and for the rest of their life
This is mildly off topic, but not really... I just wish all this war and fighting could stop. All this nationalism and religious pride.... it's going to get us nowhere but dead. There has to be something I can do to help and I've really been thinking hard about doing a series of artwork dealing with religion and belief.
In the Middle East this has been going on for 2,000+ years. We are animals first, and intelligent second. We are only free, when every individual can be one individual without repercussion from the masses. I wish I could be as brave as Gandhi, but I don't know if he was brave or stupid. I know I'm not a Christian, and I will not turn the other cheek when push comes to shove. Solitary
Quote from: Solitary on August 11, 2014, 04:05:22 PM
but I don't know if he was brave or stupid
I think it was a mix.... but sometimes you have to be
In the words of Hitchens "There can be no progress without head-on confrontation" I believe that statement whole-heartedly and I think in a way Ghandi was doing just that; blatant confrontation.
WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT
MASS EXECUTIONS BY ISIS (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7fd_1406604477)
If the mods think this is too horrific, just remove it.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on August 12, 2014, 12:02:46 PM
WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT
MASS EXECUTIONS BY ISIS (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7fd_1406604477)
If the mods think this is too horrific, just remove it.
You're fine. You gave us a warning and it's relevant to the thread.
I'm not going to watch it though. The video preview is already too graphic for me...
Unless people see this shit instead of burying their heads in sand, it will keep happening. Only ignorance, religion, and politics can take away a persons humanity (empathy) to allow this to happen. Religion of peace my ass! :eek: :sad: And yet atheists are the cause of all the problems in the world. :oak: Solitary
Quote
WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT
MASS EXECUTIONS BY ISIS (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7fd_1406604477)
If the mods think this is too horrific, just remove it.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 12, 2014, 12:09:09 PM
You're fine. You gave us a warning and it's relevant to the thread.
I'm not going to watch it though. The video preview is already too graphic for me...
I thought there would be a whole lot of people shocked by this video. Apparently not. Have we become too jaded?
After years of seeing stuff like this, whether its the Nazi's killing the jews, Khmer Rouge mass exterminating its people, the Russians executing POWS in both Eastern Europe and Afghanistan, and even Americans and English killing Vietnamese and German men at will, the mass executions of ISIS are neither surprising, nor as impactful as they once would have been.
No, we're not jaded, its just imagery that has become all too prevalent in the modern world.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on August 12, 2014, 01:39:50 PM
I thought there would be a whole lot of people shocked by this video. Apparently not. Have we become too jaded?
It's hard to be shocked by something we already are aware of. But when someone already knows the horrible nature of something like that there is no surprise.
So am I shocked? No. I don't think anyone can be shocked by too many things anymore. Shock is just a dramatic way of saying surprised... It is still no less sickening though.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 12, 2014, 02:57:45 PM
It's hard to be shocked by something we already are aware of. But when someone already knows the horrible nature of something like that there is no surprise.
So am I shocked? No. I don't think anyone can be shocked by too many things anymore. Shock is just a dramatic way of saying surprised... It is still no less sickening though.
Phew, for a moment I thought I was the only one disgusted by that video?!?
Of course we are disgusted by that video, it is a result of ignorance and religion in action. Solitary
I heard they're beheading children as well. I saw a picture of a headless small girl in her cute skirt. I hope it's not true, hope it's just a fake photo... :'(
Quote from: josephpalazzo on August 12, 2014, 01:39:50 PM
I thought there would be a whole lot of people shocked by this video. Apparently not. Have we become too jaded?
No, when someone tells me its graphic and maybe we should remove it, I have no intention of watching it.
But I admit I have all but given up on the idea of a peaceful muslim. To the comment about Ghandi? He wouldn't last ten minutes in today's Muslim world, they would have killed him easily. He owes his popularity to the somewhat civilized British who had no desire to go off killing a little man who preached peace through civil disobedience.
i no longer give a fuck about being called a bigot or a racist to muslims, I have had my full. I see nothing anywhere, that gives me "faith" in their humanity.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on August 12, 2014, 12:02:46 PM
WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT
MASS EXECUTIONS BY ISIS (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7fd_1406604477)
If the mods think this is too horrific, just remove it.
The worst part of it is, from the little I watched of it... at least these guys give them a "clean" death with a bullet to the head, instead of stoning or beheading or whatever else they like to resort to. This video somehow makes some of their other members look even more barbaric, and that is pretty hard to do.
I watched it only because I knew it would have an effect on me, because I generally go out of my way not to watch shit like this. Going in there and stirring up the hornets nest, after we have done that time and time again with bloody results like this happening time and time again.... how we ever thought it was a good idea is beyond me. Each one of the people killed in that video, and ultimately everyone injured and killed in this conflict, blood is on the hands of the American government and therefor mine as well.
I blame myself for this far before I blame Islam... it was my government and my society that believed that over-throwing governments and arming terrorist groups in the Middle East would make everything all perfect and wonderful. When a nation is constantly having terrorists funded and supplied, or it's government overthrown and having unpopular puppet governments installed... how can we ever expect peace?
Islam is about as much to blame in this as communism was in Eastern Europe and Latin America... ultimately it had far more to do with power struggles and abuses than any true ideological devotion. The West needs to learn to just fuck off and stop ruining the rest of the world for everyone else, but I don't see that happening any time soon. It doesn't effect us so why should we give a shit that there are people being tortured and killed overseas? Fuck them, right? Just a bunch of "turban wearing sand niggers" as people here would so eloquently put it.
Quote from: doorknob on August 08, 2014, 10:22:46 PM
I feel sorry the water supply is being cut off. I wouldn't do that even to a Muslim I disagreed with. The sad thing is that would they say or do the same for me?
I get sick of watching this type of news though because there's not much I can do about it.
I very rarely look at the news anymore. If something important comes up on a forum I'll look at it online, but I once went though a phase of watching news reports all the time, and thinking how shitty the world is. I had to cut out watching the news as it happened just to have a good day.
Quote from: Munch on August 12, 2014, 08:14:50 PM
I very rarely look at the news anymore. If something important comes up on a forum I'll look at it online, but I once went though a phase of watching news reports all the time, and thinking how shitty the world is. I had to cut out watching the news as it happened just to have a good day.
That's how I have been lately.
http://vimeo.com/19598947
This is a british documentary called Undercover Mosque. I think it's a huge mistake to take the approach that all religions are the same and that Islam, christianity, Buddhism, Judaism etc... all produce extremists... so nothing special to worry about with Islam. Big mistake IMO.
Religions come with all type of ideologies than range from extremely pacifist to extremely violent.
Some are extremely pacifist like Jainism, and some are war machines like Islam. Islam is an ideological road map to violent confrontation. Mohamed's life can't be taken out of context in this regard. He personally ordered the beheading of far more captured enemies and civilians than were killed in the video shown and even ordered the beheading of any boy found with pubic hair in one conflict.
Islam gets a pass because it's a large religion. If it was a small religion or a secular group with exactly the same set of extremely violent xenophobic, misogynistic rules everyone who currently gives it a big pass would be calling for the dismantling of this violent cult.
Quote from: aitm on August 12, 2014, 07:47:31 PM
But I admit I have all but given up on the idea of a peaceful muslim.
I've known some peaceful Muslims, but I truly believe that this is in spite of islam. Muslims are really the ones suffering the most from islam. I can't think of a nastier set of beliefs to let loose on any society.
Quote from: StupidWiz on August 12, 2014, 06:55:35 PM
I heard they're beheading children as well. I saw a picture of a headless small girl in her cute skirt. I hope it's not true, hope it's just a fake photo... :'(
At this point, I wouldn't put it past them.
Quote from: Berati on August 12, 2014, 08:58:31 PM
http://vimeo.com/19598947
This is a british documentary called Undercover Mosque. I think it's a huge mistake to take the approach that all religions are the same and that Islam, christianity, Buddhism, Judaism etc... all produce extremists... so nothing special to worry about with Islam. Big mistake IMO.
Religions come with all type of ideologies than range from extremely pacifist to extremely violent.
Some are extremely pacifist like Jainism, and some are war machines like Islam. Islam is an ideological road map to violent confrontation. Mohamed's life can't be taken out of context in this regard. He personally ordered the beheading of far more captured enemies and civilians than were killed in the video shown and even ordered the beheading of any boy found with pubic hair in one conflict.
Islam gets a pass because it's a large religion. If it was a small religion or a secular group with exactly the same set of extremely violent xenophobic, misogynistic rules everyone who currently gives it a big pass would be calling for the dismantling of this violent cult.
You have to take Islam in context; it was created by a warlord as opposed to rabbi and preachers and monks like modern Judaism (it's origins are of course quite barbaric), Christianity, Jainism and the like. Additionally there have been political powers in play throughout it's relatively young history that have kept it "pure" to the original message and have also added their own agendas to it.
I think it was the wrong religion at the wrong time and unfortunately has had a very hard time growing out of it's barbaric origins mostly because of political influences (religion being, imo far more effected of politics than of politics being effected by religion)... political influences that to this day stay in place; the most extreme factions are the factions that have the most money and power.
In another hundred years, who knows... Islam might be on par with Buddhism in terms of "peacefulness". A power shift in Saudi Arabia, a democratic revolution in Iran and a huge chunk of Islamic radicalism leadership goes out the door. Then again it could be another 500 years before these powers are knocked out.
I would wager that Islam will, in the next hundred years, see a major shift in how radical it is because the quality of living in these countries that breed radicals (the ultra-poor places like Pakistan, Nigeria, Indonesia, etc.) as well as regime changes towards democracy in the leadership countries (Saudi Arabia/Iran) should lean towards a more moderate Islam.
But this of course depends on two things; the people of the Middle East being willing to fight for themselves for a more peaceful government and society that fosters education and tolerance (which we have seen happen) and being able to win... and second on the West stopping it's funding of radical groups to fight it's wars for them at the cost of killing democracy and secularism in the Middle East.
To blame it solely on Islam, the situation in the Middle East, to me seems very lenient to the West which killed secular states in Iran and Afghanistan by funding radical terrorists to fight the communists. If it was not for our (and the Russian) involvement in these countries after WW2 it is quite possible that countries like Iran would rival the United States in terms of Human Rights and secularism (something it was on course of doing).
Quote from: Shiranu on August 12, 2014, 10:10:14 PM
If it was not for our (and the Russian) involvement in these countries after WW2 it is quite possible that countries like Iran would rival the United States in terms of Human Rights and secularism (something it was on course of doing).
Everyone here is quite able to recognize speculation, and that is very much that. I have nothing against speculation, except to remind us that speculation is interesting...but not very useful in the long run.
Quote from: aitm on August 12, 2014, 10:19:11 PM
Everyone here is quite able to recognize speculation, and that is very much that. I have nothing against speculation, except to remind us that speculation is interesting...but not very useful in the long run.
There is no speculation that Americans (at behalf of the British government to try to take some weight off of us) over-threw the democratic, secular Mosaddegh and allowed the dictator Shah to take over again... who then pissed people off to the point the Islamists seemed like a better choice.
Without Western intervention, the fundamentalists that now run Iran were a fringe group at best that were in decline. While they may not have rivaled us in secularism (that was a bit of an over-statement, though I would expect them to), it is pretty safe to assume that fundamentalism would not have taken over without foreign involvement... and if it did it would not have been on the platform of, "Screw the West, they are the ones who broke our country!".
I've posted here previously about the peaceful governments of Iran (1953, that was overthrown by the Brits and the CIA because they nationalized their oil) and Afghanistan, which prior to the Russians was a progressive country where women wore westernb dress and attended college.You can blame a lot of the violence on retaliation for western meddling, but ISIS is just Islam taken to extreme.
I think fundamentally that Islam has not really changed from the middle ages. all the same dictums apply and all the same scriptures from the Koran are still being quoted. And I think in the end the only solution will be a violent one.
Quote from: stromboli on August 12, 2014, 10:58:16 PM
I've posted here previously about the peaceful governments of Iran (1953, that was overthrown by the Brits and the CIA because they nationalized their oil) and Afghanistan, which prior to the Russians was a progressive country where women wore westernb dress and attended college.You can blame a lot of the violence on retaliation for western meddling, but ISIS is just Islam taken to extreme.
I think fundamentally that Islam has not really changed from the middle ages. all the same dictums apply and all the same scriptures from the Koran are still being quoted. And I think in the end the only solution will be a violent one.
Right, that's what I am saying; both internal and external forces have lead to Islam having a very hard time making changes. When we tore Afghanistan open we left a wide power hole for ISIS to fill, just as when we overthrew Mossadegh we left Iran wide open for fundamentalists.
I am not saying ISIS, Khomeini and Islam itself don't have blame, simply that we are continuing an age-old tradition of making sure radicalism has a place to fester and grow in the Middle East and it's very important that as a society we take the blame for allowing things to get so bad.
I don't see the moderatization of Islam to be a peaceful change either; I doubt the leadership in Saudi Arabia or Iran will just willingly give up their power to moderates. I do hope that at least places like Pakistan, Indonesia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Nigeria and so-forth manage to have increased quality of living and educational standards, but even this is something that will have to be fought for. And to be fair to both the moderates in SA and Iran, and the poor in the other countries... they have fought for these things. While not always successful, infact often not-so, there is a large movement in the Islamic world to become more educated which will lead to better living standards and a more secular government.
I have said it for years now and I will say it again, much to the annoyance of many of you here... the root problems with humanity have far less to do with, imo, ideology and far more to do with socio-economic and political power issues. Just like Communism was not the problem with the Soviet Union so much as corruption and power abuse were, corruption and power are the biggest influences in keeping the Islamic world the shit-hole it is.
Quote from: Shiranu on August 12, 2014, 07:55:17 PM
Each one of the people killed in that video, and ultimately everyone injured and killed in this conflict, blood is on the hands of the American government and therefor mine as well.
Yes, the US has blood on its hand for going in Iraq on false pretenses, but it's not responsible for the deaths in that video.
Quote from: Shiranu on August 12, 2014, 10:10:14 PM
You have to take Islam in context; it was created by a warlord as opposed to rabbi and preachers and monks like modern Judaism (it's origins are of course quite barbaric), Christianity, Jainism and the like. Additionally there have been political powers in play throughout it's relatively young history that have kept it "pure" to the original message and have also added their own agendas to it.
I think it was the wrong religion at the wrong time and unfortunately has had a very hard time growing out of it's barbaric origins mostly because of political influences (religion being, imo far more effected of politics than of politics being effected by religion)... political influences that to this day stay in place; the most extreme factions are the factions that have the most money and power.
In another hundred years, who knows... Islam might be on par with Buddhism in terms of "peacefulness". A power shift in Saudi Arabia, a democratic revolution in Iran and a huge chunk of Islamic radicalism leadership goes out the door. Then again it could be another 500 years before these powers are knocked out.
I would wager that Islam will, in the next hundred years, see a major shift in how radical it is because the quality of living in these countries that breed radicals (the ultra-poor places like Pakistan, Nigeria, Indonesia, etc.) as well as regime changes towards democracy in the leadership countries (Saudi Arabia/Iran) should lean towards a more moderate Islam.
But this of course depends on two things; the people of the Middle East being willing to fight for themselves for a more peaceful government and society that fosters education and tolerance (which we have seen happen) and being able to win... and second on the West stopping it's funding of radical groups to fight it's wars for them at the cost of killing democracy and secularism in the Middle East.
To blame it solely on Islam, the situation in the Middle East, to me seems very lenient to the West which killed secular states in Iran and Afghanistan by funding radical terrorists to fight the communists. If it was not for our (and the Russian) involvement in these countries after WW2 it is quite possible that countries like Iran would rival the United States in terms of Human Rights and secularism (something it was on course of doing).
Theres no denying the role the west has played recently and yet islam has not changed at all since it's founding as a terrorist insurgency.
Have a look at this historical account of Muhammads conquests from historynet.
http://www.historynet.com/muhammad-the-warrior-prophet.htm
Muhammad laid the ground work for Islamic behavior (insurgency aided by terrorism and strict violent control) and he did this prior to any influence from the west. The fact that Muslims still behave the same way cannot therefore be attributed mostly to the mistakes of the west. ISIS and results as seen in the video posted by JP are not a corruption of Muhammad's teaching, they are the
result of those teachings.
You have speculated that Islam could become moderate but anyone could easily speculate that Islam will continue to remain exactly as it is since there can never be any change to the text or to the example the leader himself provided. The failure of the Arab Spring doesn't point in the direction we would all like to see islam go. It seems clear that given the chance, they will elect a powerful undemocratic caliph and put the Ummah in charge just as their holy scripture commands regardless of the actions of the western world.
If the west had not interfered at all in the middle east I think that the rules set out for societal control by islam would be unchanged and any attempt at an open society would be met by more insurgency, just as the prophet displayed and commanded.
There is no distinction between military/political/spiritual control in islam. There is no "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" in Islam as there is in christianity and other major religions. It appears to me that even if we do what is "right" (whatever that might be) islam will continue to be a major problem for those living under its sway or in its shadow.
It seems now that ISIS is turning out to be a much formidable enemy than Al-Qaeda. And if it does attain its goal, it will completely destablize the ME and as such, poses a greater threat. It's irrelevant at this point that the US messed up under Bush, or that the European powers were out of their depth after WW1 in carving out that region. And I don't think the region is ready for democracy (Egypt, Lybia, and Iraq are a dysmal reminder of that failing experience). And so the US will have to seek some allies, ironically Russia and Iran, as both of these countries have vital interests over there. The sacrifial lamb will have to be Ukraine - the US should approach the Russians and let them know we are not interested in getting Ukraine into Nato, same thing with the Europeans. Perhaps one day the Ukrainians will free themselves of the Russian dole, but right now we have bigger fish to fry.
Those Muslims are barbarians. Those fuckers live in the middle ages. Islam the religion of peace my ass. This religion is VERY dangerous.
Islam accounts itself for trying to convince the poor and ignorant they are a religion of peace. And those who don't fall for their bullshit while they rape and kill their own daughters are given the suicide bomber treatment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxlO7DLC6p8
Also the one who tries to criticize it will be labeled as racist and "Islamophobe." It's actually a good strategy for them to invent this word btw, probably trying to hitch ride on LGBT movement. (O hey look homophobes are being despised, maybe we can use that as well to get as much sympathy like the gays do, and to shame and silence those annoying critics who tries to reveal the true face of our peaceful religion)
Quote from: StupidWiz on August 14, 2014, 11:53:36 AM
Also the one who tries to criticize it will be labeled as racist and "Islamophobe." It's actually a good strategy for them to invent this word btw, probably trying to hitch ride on LGBT movement. (O hey look homophobes are being despised, maybe we can use that as well to get as much sympathy like the gays do, and to shame and silence those annoying critics who tries to reveal the true face of our peaceful religion)
I can't understand why progressives don't attack Islam. Is there a sense that the people holding to these beliefs are oppressed?
Quote from: Desdinova on August 14, 2014, 12:07:57 PM
I can't understand why progressives don't attack Islam. Is there a sense that the people holding to these beliefs are oppressed?
Yes, very much so, infact the major religions of christianity and islam are crying out intolerance to anyone now criticizing them, not just claiming they are victims of persecution, but even making movies about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3eqxKNhmT8
I find it quite staggering. The most major religious groups with countless drones serving it across the world, groups that have spread persecution and hatred and violence in all the countries their faith grows in, with a 99-1 percent of people actually calling them on their bullshit, and THEY are the ones who act like they are the victims.
Quote from: Munch on August 14, 2014, 06:31:31 PM
Yes, very much so, infact the major religions of christianity and islam are crying out intolerance to anyone now criticizing them, not just claiming they are victims of persecution, but even making movies about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3eqxKNhmT8
I find it quite staggering. The most major religious groups with countless drones serving it across the world, groups that have spread persecution and hatred and violence in all the countries their faith grows in, with a 99-1 percent of people actually calling them on their bullshit, and THEY are the ones who act like they are the victims.
LMAO
One of my not-friends on facebook just posted a status "God's not dead" (probably in response from seeing my post about how I was preached to at work and was frustrated about it)
I'm really tempted to ask him "which god?" as a comment, but I know that's not going to do me any good...
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on August 12, 2014, 01:55:32 PM
No, we're not jaded, its just imagery that has become all too prevalent in the modern world.
I had to think about that for a minute but I reckon you're right. And the implications of that idea are profoundly saddening....
Quote from: Desdinova on August 14, 2014, 12:07:57 PM
I can't understand why progressives don't attack Islam. Is there a sense that the people holding to these beliefs are oppressed?
Religion is just like Stockholm Syndrome....