In 2008, up to 27th Dec., the home-made rockets that Hamas fired into Israel killed no-one. In return the Israelis killed 400 children and 900 adults in Gaza.
I don't see how Israel has the right to kick the Palestinians off their farms, bulldoze their houses, kick them out of their homeland and slaughter them.
It is a nation that stole its land through military force. I hear so many evangelicals and fundamentalists claiming that we have to give money to Israel because the Bible says "bless israel and you shall be blessed, curse israel and you shall be cursed". What a shitcrock!
now the Palestinians are imprisoned in the shithole Gaza Strip and forced west as israelis keep expanding into the west bank. Without America (and others) funding Israel the nation wouldnt exist.
Just to make it clear, Im not blowing hamas! Theres no justification for killing innocent people or terrorism. Despite what Netanyahu wants you to think, Not all Palestinians are terrorists!
QuoteI don't see how Israel has the right to kick the Palestinians off their farms, bulldoze their houses, kick them out of their homeland and slaughter them.
Me neither, I think Israel should stop that.
QuoteIt is a nation that stole its land through military force.
Oh, you mean like the land they bought peacefully from Arab landowners in the late 30s-40's that the owners had zero problem with taking their money for the land? Do you mean the land they gained in 48' when they legally declared themselves a country and had their neighbours invade them from 3 sides? Or perhaps you mean the war they gained the most out of, the Six Day War, where Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Iraq massed troops on the Israeli border and then got their asses handed to them? Of course Israel gave the majority of the land they took BACK to Egypt, but still... they owned it for a little while, right?
Or maybe you mean the Yom Kippur War, when Egypt and Syria, with support of Iraq and Saudi Arabia, invaded them AGAIN, this time a surprise attack during one of their Holy Days. Of course not much land traded hands this time, so that's nice. Or the 1982 Lebanon War, which was a response to the previous 10 years of artillery and missles being launched into Israel out of South Lebanon. But I am sure if Mexico allowed drug lords to shoot missiles into Phoenix, El Paso, So. Cal, Texas for 10 years straight, the United States would be the bad guy for retaliating, yes?
There were of course the Intifada, where Palestinians went on Israeli killing fests which then lead the Israeli military to go into their territory and fuck them up.
But please, tell me more about how they "stole" that land from those poor, innocent people through military force.
You want to say they stole, and are stealing, land through the settlements, I 100% agree with you. But don't come here with that bullshit narrative that Israel is some super power that just steam-rolled poor little ol' farmers and defenseless women and children with their tanks and airplanes and bombs and just declared themselves the new power in the region.
QuoteWithout America (and others) funding Israel the nation wouldnt exist.
They did quite fine without us; when they declared their independence, the Arab League was rocking weapons, tanks and airplanes sold to them by the Allied Forces (predominately France and England).
Now, do I think we should support them? Not particularly, no. If they want to buy weapons from us, I am okay with that, and maybe give them a discount because of the fact they are one of the few "free" (relatively) countries in the region, but in terms of just giving them handouts...nah.
There are all sorts of numbers to deaths on both side, so take this as you will...
Israeli's killed since 48' - 24,845 Arabs - 90,785
Note that is including the Arab Leagues invasions of Israel; and indeed the majority of those fatalities (70,000 of them, roughly) came during the War of Independence, The Six Day War, The Yom Kippur War and the First Lebanon War... all of which were instigated by the Arab League.
If you want someone to blame for innocent Palestinians being killed, blame the Arab League... not Israel. They are the one's on the crusade to drive the "Jewish Dogs back into the ocean". They are the one's that refuse to allow Palestinian refugees into the country or get citizenship (Jordan and I believe Egypt have recently changed that policy). They continue to treat Palestinian refugees as second-class citizens for their own political agendas, and finally they are the one's who insure that the Palestinian government is run by fanatics who have no desire for peace through their funding of terrorist organizations like Hamas (Hezbollah a bit different, seeing as they are funded by Iran).
I liked your post shiranu. Very thoughtfull despite my disagreeing with you
in the PBS documentary called the 50 years war, it said that the six day war killed fifteen thousand Arabs. curious where you got the 70000 figure?
will be back with more
I liked your post too ds
What sort of people make up the Israeli military who, when seeing a child's face look out of a window,. they blow the child's brains out. If you.watch that pbs doc I mentioned you will see Israeli soldiers talk about being ordered to throw a grenaded through the window of each Palestinian house.
Drunkenshoe speaks the truth
Find a first world nation that practices more segregation and racism than Israel. They have the Bible justifying their actions as well.
Read the racist talmud while you are at it.
Israel is a Zionist military dictatorship. Yet they have our sympathy
In israels defense, they protested Sharon's involvement in the refugee butchery. I give them props for that.
Quotein the PBS documentary called the 50 years war, it said that the six day war killed fifteen thousand Arabs. curious where you got the 70000 figure?
That was over the 4 major wars, not just 6dw.
QuoteSo, they kick Palestinians off their farms, bulldoze their houses and kick them out of their homeland and slaughter them without any military force? But they need nuclear weaponry, because everyone in the region wants to annihilate them.
This is again a narrative that simply never happened in large scale, so sure why not.
The majority of Israeli land (that wasn't bought, the HUGE majority of current Israel) was gained during the multiple wars the Arab League declared against them with the sole purpose of killing every Jew and pushing them back into the ocean (off of land they 95% legally acquired before 48). If 4 countries invade you at the same time, I honestly feel you have the right to keep some of the land you won while defending and pushing them back, especially since they otherwise faced no consequences from the international community. That seems more than fair in reparation towards having an entire region gang up on you to kill you because you were of a different race and religion.
Oh, and that land that was taken?... yeaaaaah, most of that has been returned...
QuoteCould you please tell me, how does Israel gain land without using any military force or US support?
I never said they didn't gain land without military force, I said they didn't do the majority of it through using their military to run off unarmed farmers and civilians from their land; the majority of it was gained after being invaded by a collation of Arab forces. As for US support, they had already won their first war against an ethnic cleansing.
QuoteAre you really sure what you feel about this?
Pretty sure, yeah. I am not one for arguing against historical truths, the historical truth in this case being that the Arab League invaded Israel multiple times with the single goal of carrying out an ethnic cleansing.
QuoteI have never seen so much bullshit in one place.
Sorry I annoyed you by making you see all the 'bullshit' of just how many ethnic cleansing wars the Arab League carried out against Israel. Kinda makes the whole narrative of Israel being the big bad bully look pretty silly, like saying the Bosnians who fought against Slobodan Milosevic were the bullies and Milosevic the victim...
QuoteAND other have been there what?
Let's see... the majority of them, 3-4 generations. The Arab League sponsored huge numbers of families to move into the legal land that they had acquired, and later promised families that they could keep the land they took from the Jews in 48'. The region before both Jewish and Arab immigration, which there was alot of following the are being left by the English and French, was very... VERY sparsely populated.
Of course, the Arab League then refused to let them regain their citizenship when the war was over, and let's not forget the hundreds of thousands of Israel who came into the country because the Arab League countries began killing their communities that had been in Morocco, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, etc. for hundreds, some over a thousand, of years... but those refugees don't fit the anti-Israel agenda, so who cares that there were mass killings going on in the Muslim countries towards Jews?
Quoteyeah, Israel has nothing to do with a crusade, and our evidence is that they are not talking about it openly.
Oh, right... I forgot that time when Israel and... uh... um... Israel teamed up against Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Morocco, Egypt, Iran to an extent)... invaded their countries and said, "The whole reason we are doing this is to bury every last Arab in the desert, to leave their bodies rotting in the streets of Mecca and Medina and Rabat and Baghdad and Amman for the dogs to eat".
That sure was a terrible time in Israeli history when they did that... 4 times...
Oh, wait...
QuoteWhat the fuck are you talking about really?
The hypocrisy of this statement is astounding, considering my posts were backed up by historical events, yours... eh... well...
QuoteIsrael is a Zionist military dictatorship
I wouldn't go so far as to say military dictatorship, but I would agree that the current government is Zionist run (the party use to be classified as a terrorist organization, so I feel they have no right to be elected) and shows little sign of stopping Israel's crimes. However I would argue that their main weapon against the Palestinians now is settlements and segregation rather than military power outright.
QuoteWhat sort of people make up the Israeli military who, when seeing a child's face look out of a window,. they blow the child's brains out. If you.watch that pbs doc I mentioned you will see Israeli soldiers talk about being ordered to throw a grenaded through the window of each Palestinian house.
Same type of people who make up any other military; you follow that order, or you yourself end up with a bullet in the back of the head of the rest of your life in jail.
To counter; what sort of people hide behind those same kids to shoot at Israelis, that strap bombs to those kids and send them onto crowded buses, that hide in those houses and launch rockets across the border?
Those of us who have studied history might have a slightly different view, but you really ought to educate yourself. I posted a thread on here about how the world changed after WW1. Might start there.
http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=5393.0
And read about the Balfour Declaration and shit like that there. You might also remember that the so-called Holy Land belonged to the Jews for centuries before Palestine was even a word. You can find reasons to hate or side with either side, but the concept that the Jews just marched in and took over isn't exactly accurate.
You might discover in your reading that Palestine exists today because (1) every other nation in the Middle east kicked the refugees out that became Palestine and the Jews let them stay where other countries wouldn't, because they themselves were refugees. And (2) that over decades, hundreds of miiltary and terrorist attacks have been launched from Palestine against Israel. In the present term they might be overly aggressive, but long term they have been given plenty of motivation to do so.
Before you come off like an Archie Bunker bigot, please try to see the big picture.
Turn the whole Middle East to glass.
I speak of a countries atrocities and that makes me an archie bunker bigot? Reminds me of those who consider those who dont like obama racist.
Find a first world nation that practices more racism and segregation than Israel. I wonder how much bloodshed took place in Palestine before the creation of israel? Something to think about.
A lot of good the nation has done.
I know itis more complicated than a bunch of jews showing up to a foreign country and kicking everyone out. Dont tell me I spoke falsehoods. They are guilty of the atrocities I mentioned.
Also, fuck hamas! Fuck terrorism and the slaying of innocent s done by israelis and arabs.
If some dipshit from mexico fired homemade rockets into Texas, does that justify a military operation into Mexico that kills over a thousand people (more than half of them being children and women?)
In great britain guy Fawkes Night, (Nov. 5th), there were more casualties from fireworks than there had been all year in Israel from Hamas rockets. In 2008 not one Israeli was killed by these Hamas rockets before the Israelis slaughtered over 1000 Palestinians most of them innocent.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on June 28, 2014, 07:49:58 PM
Turn the whole Middle East to glass.
Mind telling me how to do that? Ill get right on if!
Quote from: shortbusgangsta on June 28, 2014, 11:05:19 PM
Mind telling me how to do that? Ill get right on if!
You'll need a fairly large nuclear device (ideally several), and a large quantity of sand.
In trying to understand the conflict, I've come to the conclusion that there are no saints on either side, and each side would like to claim victimhood and gain the sympathy of the rest of the world. This is a feud, and it's fueled by hatred, not by reason, with each side saying their hatred is justified, but the other side's hatred is not. So who really started it? Is that important? Does it make much difference? Each side will look back to some atrocity that suits their argument, and say this is where it started. I've seen 4th graders act this way, except put this type of reasoning and conflict resolution in the hands of full blown adults with deadly weapons, and the result is death and destruction.
This is a good thing for industries in the West that manufacture weapons of destruction. It's the life blood of capitalism and creates jobs. And for countries that produce these weapons, it adds to the economy.
The whole thing is really fucked up.
Quote
In the 18 months, up to 1st May, 2002, Israeli terrorists have killed approximately 1,200, Palestinians, (now probably 1,600 - 1,800, up to 12th May 2002). They have used American tanks, American helicopter gunships, American warplanes, and American missiles against civilians. In the same period, in response to the Israeli killings, Palestinian suicide bombers have killed approximately 200 Israelis.Ariel Sharon oversaw the slaughter of over 800 Palestinian civilians, mostly women & children, in the Sabra and Chatilla refugee camps in South Beirut in 1982.In Jenin the Israeli army used bulldozers to crush house in which civilians sheltered, the Israelis used civilians as human shields when they attacked Palestinians and checked for booby traps.
These acts fall within the definition of war crimes.Israel has developed weapons of mass destruction and has over 200 nuclear weapons, and the USA has done nothing about it.The government of U.S.A. has funded and still funds and arms the Israeli terrorists. This year, 2002, USA government is giving Israel $2,000,000,000 in military aid, that's an awful lot of tanks, helicopter gunships, warplanes, missiles etc.etc. that's an awful lot of dead Palestinians, and that's nothing compared the previous years.
Oh the nation of Israel doesnt live on stolen land:
The answer to the question is no.
Lets see how much the usa donated to Israel so that they could slaughter the under equipped impoverished and usually unarmed Palestinians.
in 1990 to 2000, the US provided Israel with $7.2bn worth of weaponry and military equipment, including: Equipment, Cost (per unit) Fighter planes237 F-16 Fighting Falcons, $34.3m (each!)98 F-15 Eagles, $38m50 F-4E Phantoms, $18.4mHelicopters42 AH-64 Apache Attacks, $14.5m57 Cobra Attacks, $10.7m25 Blackhawks, $11mMissilesAGM 65 Mavericks, $17,000-$110,000AGM 114 Hellfires, $40,000Aim 7 Sparrows, $125,000Aim 9 Sidewinders, $84,000Aim 120B Amraams, $386,000Harpoon anti-ship missiles, $720,000. . And a few Freebies The US also gives weapons and ammunition free of charge. Between 1994 and 2001 this included: 64,744 M-16A1 rifles,2,469 M-204 grenade launchers,1,500 M-2 .50 yet calibre machine gunsand.30 calibre,.50 calibre,20mmammunitionSource: World
Policy Institute. Research department: Linda MacDonald
http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel050602.html
From 1976 to 2001, Israel had been the largest annual recipient of U.S. foreign assistance. According to a November 2001 Congressional Research Service report, Israel: U.S. Foreign Assistance, U.S. aid to Israel in the last half century has totaled a whopping $81.3 billion.
In case the print on the 3 maps of Israel above are too small, the.map to the left shows the tiny jewish presence as the white dots and the Palestinians as green, in israel in 1946.
The second batch shows how much land israelis Conquered with military force in 1947. The map to the right shows how littleland was left for the Palestinians by the year 2000 as jewish settlements continued to illegally expand.
the Bible permits God's chosen people and nation Israel to commit genocide against the other nations. yes in the Old Testament, the Israelis repeatedly annihilated pagan cities or rather those who were not Jews. they were permitted to kill men women children and even and the animals.so now evangelicals feel obliged to give a shit ton of money to Israel. they believe that by doing they will be blessed. All those billions of dollars that our government gave t to Israel does not include all the money given to Israel by those who embrace the Bible as the Word of God.
what we have also seen on this site is that it is not just evangelicals that favor or at least are on the side of Israel, but atheists as well. why couldn't the Jewish state have been somewhere where it would have cost much less blood shed or loss of lives. Maybe New York or any other place. So many other places in the world that we could have given the Jews their state. Why do we choose Palestine the Holy Land? Biblical basis. It was "promised" to them by God
Moshe Dayan in 1956 said of Palestinians in a eulogy for an Israeli soldier:"Do not today besmirch the murderers with accusations.
Who are we that we should bewail their mighty hatred of us? For eight years they sit in refugee camps in Gaza, and opposite their gaze we appropriate for ourselves as our own portion the land and the villages in which they and their fathers dwelled."
This is 2014; the Palestinian people have now been living under intolerable oppression for far more than 8 years.And your delusional conclusion? God must be proud.
Nope.
You know who America should really support? Itself and it's own people first. Not a "state" which causes massive problems all over a certain part of the world.
This concludes the end of my sociopathic, weird post.
I believe the job of the US government is to take care of the US. Anything other than that is outside the job of the US government. That includes taking care of other countries. Unless some foreign country says "Hey, can we become part of the US" then it isn't the job of the US government to take care of them.
I think a major world power does have some responsibility in global affairs. How much I'm not sure. The main problem I think is that the US as a world power isn't very good at it. In many cases, our meddling is done for reasons Jason would approve of, but it's usually selfish, badly handled, frequently completely botched, and in the worst cases, at someone else's expense.
There is no reason for us to support an illegal settler such as Israel. We should have given these people refuge after WW2, and Britain should not have gone back on its word to the Palestinian people that they would have their own government. Israel has directly attacked the US military. Not a dime should be wasted on people like this.
Palestine was never a country.
Prior to WW1 it was a territory of the Ottoman Empire and everyone that lived there was considered palestinian... including the jews who lived there. There is no palestinian language or religion or culture separate from the Arabs and Jews who lived there.
After the collapse of the Ottomans, Palestine was partitioned in the same way that India and Pakistan were partitioned when the Hindus and Muslims couldn't live together. In Palestine, the Arabs received two thirds of the land and called their part Trans Jordan and the Jews got 1/3 of the land and called it Israel. There is nothing immoral, unfair or illegal about this. All it takes is open honest negotiations.
This was a negotiated settlement. The real problem is that the Arabs refused to entertain any agreement of any kind. No negotiations whatsoever even though it was the Ottomans on the wrong side of WW1. The problem is the refusal to even allow Israel's right to exist. Jews make up about 1% of the population of the middle east and take up about 1% of the land. Sounds about right to me.
Islam is the real culprit. It's a warrior religion and they outright refused any negotiated settlement and instead turned to what they know best... violence. The Jews have responded with just as much and often more violence but the fact is... they didn't initiate, they responded.
The U.S. should not have any more involvement in this situation than any other international problem. Those Americans who want to get involved in a foreign war because "the bible says so" should have their heads examined.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 07, 2014, 02:51:17 PM
The position of the Labor Party remains what was expressed by their representative, who is now President, Chaim Herzog, who said that "no one can be a partner with us in a land that has been holy to our people for 2000 years."
Perfect biblical genocide. Declaration of 'we will annihilate them'.
Yeah Israel is just responding and protecting itself. Israel is fine, just everyone around it is against its right to exist. Oh and it has nuclear weapons.
What fucking, stomach turning bullshit.
LOL You think I can't find any Muslim genocidal quotes?? Are you familiar with islam?
"Mickey teaches children to kill jews"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdWV02Szb5k
So Israel defending itself and its right to exist is bullshit? Not in this world.
Arabs did not own Palestine... that's why it was partitioned. The split was fair and the Muslims refused to come to the table.
QuoteArabs did not own Palestine... that's why it was partitioned. The split was fair and the Muslims refused to come to the table.
Eh, they came to the table when it came to selling the immigrants land... didn't seem to have any problem with them then when they were taking their money.
QuoteLOL You think I can't find any Muslim genocidal quotes??
Not even Islam, just Arab quotes against Jews...
Quote"It will be a war of annihilation. It will be a momentous massacre in history that will be talked about like the massacres of the Mongols or the Crusades." - Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League. Interview in Akhbar Al-Yom Newspaper, on the impending Arab attack on the fledgling state of Israel.
Quote"We will not bend or fail until the blood of every last Jew from the youngest child to the oldest elder is spilt to redeem our land!"
Yasser Arafat
Quote"We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion. We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem." - Yasser Arafat
Quote"Peace for us means the destruction of Israel. We are preparing for an all-out war, a war which will last for generations. - Yasser Arafat
Quote"Our law is a Jordanian law that we inherited, which applies to both the West Bank and Gaza, and sets the death penalty for those who sell land to Israelis." -Yasser Arafat
And so on and so forth of Arab Leaders threatening to "drive the Jewish dogs back into the sea" or "Litter the streets of Jereuselem with the dead bodies of every Jewish man, woman and child"...
Yeah Palestine and the rest of the Arab League is just responding and protecting itself. Palestine and it's Arab League backers are fine, just Israel is against its right to...massacre every last Jew in the Middle East?. Oh and it has billions of dollars in oil money and is willing to strap their own children with bombs and send them into civilian buses and buildings as suicide bombers.
What fucking, stomach turning bullshit.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 09, 2014, 05:20:40 AM
Move. Catch up.
There is no Moving or catching up without first understanding how we came to this point.
Palestine was never a country.
There is no Palestinian language.
There is no Palestinian religion.
Everyone who lived there was considered Palestinian. Palestinian Arabs, Palestinian Jews.
Prior to 1947 the entire area of Israel and Jordan was under British rule as the British Mandate of Palestine.
Prior to that, the territory was under Ottoman (Turks) rule for centuries.
In 1947 the area was partitioned just like India and Pakistan were partitioned. Two religious groups couldn't get along. (big surprise)
There is nothing illegal about this partitioning.
The Jews did not steal the land from anyone, it was their ancestral home as well.
The Arabs refused any and all negotiation. "We get it all or we kill all the jews" was there stated negotiation.
The reason Arabs negotiate like this...islam.
The territory was partitioned (Arabs received 2/3 of the territory and Jews received 1/3)...and the Arabs immediately attacked because they wanted it all.
They initiated the violence, and have maintained this violent approach for decades.
Jews have met violence with violence and extremism with extremism, does this surprise you?
If you want to know how fucked up and one sided to Israel's favor it is in the US go to almost any major city in the US and you'll find a very specific industry that gets favorable press coverage every fucking time with ZERO favorable press for Palestinian's and that industry is the Holocaust industry. Yes, it's every bit an industry as the evangelical industry is and the two are in cahoots. For the life of me I can't tell you why Columbus Ohio has a Holocaust museum on the state capital grounds. It didn't fucking happen in Columbus and yet every major US city has such a museum. It's total bullshit sold to us under the premise that those horrible Nazi's might do it again while the fascists simply switched enemies. Instead of being Jews it's Arabs and in the US it's often pronounced A rabs as opposed to air rabs and always in a negative light. You're sold the idea every mini mart is 'given' to illegal A rab immigrants instead of legal, tax paying citizens.
Fuck, if you're this blind to the blatant racism and discrimination is there any hope you'll ever understand the dirty dealing behind the empire game?
Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 09, 2014, 09:54:25 AM
We have arrived this point because USA AND ISRAEL PREVENTED ANY REAL RESOLUTION. Because US wants the region as fucked up as possible and Israel gets anything out of it AND they keep invading land.
'Israelis' act exactly the same as Arabs. If they didn't have the wealth and technology, they would be producing suicide bombers faster than as q-tips. They are as racist, violent, fanatic and fucked up As Arabs in the region.
The Arabs have never accepted Israel,Pakistan was created in a similar manner to Israel, did the muslims ever thank the west for Pakistan or do the butthurt muslims constantly whine about the filthy Yahud?
The USA does not want the region fucked up and they are not responsible for muslims behaviour from Boko Haram or al shaabab to ISIS/Isil or any other fundie fuckwits.
Israelis are not exactly the same as the Arabs,the filthy Yahud produce technology which provides wealth, the Arabs produce nothing except fundie nutjobs!
How many rockets have been fired into Israel,does Amnesty International call firing these rockets into civilian areas a war crime?
The Arabs think chanting Allahu Akbar is a guidance system for their rockets,it must be gods will why they miss..lol.
The Israelis are deadly accurate with the weapons they fire, all the optics technology in precision weapons comes from Israel,even the Turkish air force uses Litening Targeting pods made in Israel for your ancient F4's, the same company that makes these pods also produced the colonoscopy and pill cameras used in hospitals.
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LITENING (http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LITENING)
If you don't like Israel i suggest you dispose of your USB flash drives as 2 Israelis hold the patent for them,what have the Arabs created in the last 50 years?
QuoteProblem is that ANY possible resolution is being prevented on purpose by Israel and USA. Are you aware of this? Why are you not?
Problem is that ANY possible resolution is being prevented on purpose by Hamas and the Arab League. Are you aware of this? Why are you not?
I'm sorry, but the Arab League (or more accurately today Saudi Arabia, the rest I think (especially Egypt and Jordan) I have calmed down a bit on their radicalism) is just a much a territorial player as the United States is. To blame it on Israel and the USA alone is giving a free pass to the side that sponsors true, radical organizations.
I agree with your argument against Berati that it is all the Arab League fault, but I disagree with you that you feel the need to put the majority of the blame on Israel and the West. I think it is at best 50/50, at different points of history it was predominately the Israelis and at different points it was predominately the Palestinian and their Arab financiers. To put the majority of the blame on the "West" is to do the exact same thing you are accusing Berati of.
And while I agree that the past has little to do with the power player's involvement at this point, for the average Hamas suicide bomber or the Israeli commander who orders a missile strike into a crowd of Palestinians, the religion/history of violence/racism is the key issue going through their mind.
@APA; give me a break, if you don't think Israeli's aren't demonised in the US, you have never met pretty much anyone who votes Democrat or leans towards the left. The Israeli/Palestinian cause is such a bandwagon amongst American "liberals" that it is ridiculous, especially when they show no outrage over true genocides like what is happening in Tibet, Sri Lanka, and Africa.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 09, 2014, 09:54:25 AM
You keep repeating that^. Too bad it doesn't have any validity.
I repeat it and will continue to repeat it because it is central to the dispute. It's not something you can gloss over as irrelevant.
Neither Arab nor Jew can claim the entire area as there own and since they cannot get along the area was partitioned.
QuoteDo you understand the meaning of indigenous people?
I do. Even today, they are digging up documents that are thousands of years old written in Hebrew.
Are you saying that Arabs are indigenous and Jews are not?
QuoteWe have arrived this point because USA AND ISRAEL PREVENTED ANY REAL RESOLUTION.
We have arrived at this point because Arabs got 2/3 of the British Palestinian mandate but would settle for nothing less than 100%. We have arrived at this point because the Arabs refused to acknowledge the right of other people to exist.
Had the Arabs said OK to any of the many proposal that were put forward there would be no problem. But it was 100% or nothing in their eyes.
QuoteBecause US wants the region as fucked up as possible and Israel gets anything out of it AND they keep invading land. And what they are doing is ILLEGAL. Thread is full of links and charts reports on what has Israel been doing. Your fucking bias and hatred is not enough to cover that.
I could just as easily accuse you of bias against the jews by ignoring the historical facts I've pointed out.
I've already agreed that the Jews are responding to violence and fanaticism with violence and fanaticism. What you are missing is that it's a RESPONSE.
For example, the recent murder of the palestinian boy. It was horrible and the perpetrators need to be punished. But if you simply ignore that just previously three jewish boys were murdered you are missing the bigger picture.
QuoteThe answer is to everything 'oh because it's Islam'' Yeah. :doh:
Islam is a noxious and violent ideology. I don't lump all religion together like many liberals because the results vary. Some are much more violent than others and islam tops the list. Arab muslims kill each other as well as anyone else in their vicinity, Jews included. If you want to leave out the obvious influence of this violent belief system in this conflict then you're making a serious mistake.
Quote'Israelis' act exactly the same as Arabs.
Not even close.
They defend themselves in sometimes extreme manners. They are surrounded and outnumbered by several orders of magnitude by violent fanatics and yet you think they are the ones to blame . They have taken land in wars AND given it back! They have also illegally settled in areas they should not as people in those areas plot their destruction and continuously fire rockets into their land.
QuoteI am sick of having conversations with people who cannot think further two propaganda lines.
Then take a deep breath and relax. I'm not your mortal enemy. I'm just a guy who disagrees with you on this ONE topic.
Muslims have 99 times more land and population than the Jews and you want to convince us that it's the jews causing all the problems? And you want to make this argument while the muslims are acting out towards everyone (including each other) with hatred and violence?
Yeah, blame the jews. No one has done that before.
Yes because Israel is one of the United States of America and should be treated as one!
How about we just leave middle east alone seriously.
if we lose Israel, there will be no democracy in the Middle East!
QuoteHas it ever occurred to you, Shiranu that there is something really wrong with that while all those Holocaust museums built everywhere, showing in excruciating detail of the genocide European Jews were subjected to, BUT NONE of the Native American Museums tell the horror stories of the biggest, longest standing genocide known in recent human history; what has been done to those people, who are successfully wiped out from the face of the world?
A. The majority of that happened "long" ago, before any one who survived those events would have gone on to create a museum. On the other-hand there are still people living who lived during the peak of the Holocaust.
B. It was a foreign government and pretty much the biggest event to happen in the 1900s... I would be far more shocked if it wasn't a huge industry, considering it is pointing out someone else's sins and not our own.
C. Really... NO museums point out the genocide of the Native Americans? None? That is a bold statement, considering I have been to one in West Texas. Are the major museums saying that... I honestly don't know, having never been to a major museum that covered anything outside of Egyptian, Aeronautics or NASA-related technology.
QuoteHas it ever occurred to you that why whenever a racist anti,-semitist fuck spews a bullshit about how Holocaust didn't exist blah blah...etc everyone stands up like wind up toy and start to curse him, BUT no one stands up to say 'Are you aware that our State has been rejecting a genocide for hundreds of years?'
Considering no one I know denies that the mass slaughter of Indians occurred... yeah, that really is not a shock to me that no one stands up to say, "Dude... seriously?"
And in both New Mexico and Texas State we have learned about it in anthropology classes, so it's apparently not so controversial that universities don't teach it. Perhaps its regional, but New Mexico was actually VERY aware of the genocide against Natives as well as the current shitty conditions they live in.
QuoteThis is the genocide policy of USA. And only reason that Jewish Holocaust RECOGNISED AND MATTERS, because it is BENEFICIAL AND PROFITABLE.
So forget Sri Lanka and Africa...there is nothing there.
Uh... yeah... that's how capitalism works. The Holocaust museums use to rake in huge dollars, now not so much... alot of them have become abandoned or attacked by anti-Semites (for example in El Paso there was one just recently burned down with Swastikas spray painted nearby) because it's not a big business anymore.
If the U.S. government were to play the Holocaust card, you give Americans FAR too much credit... no one gives a shit anymore. No one gives a shit about genocide anywhere, even the one's happening today... you really think the average American cares one way or another what happened to the Jews in the 30s and 40s?
I don't disagree with you on alot of things about the U.S. governments involvement in the ME, but you are giving the average American FAR too much credit in thinking they give a shit one way or another about Israel.
If the gov't was to say, "We are stopping all aide to Israel immediately!", the response would either be "Good, why are we sending money to other countries!" or "Who is Israel?"
If the gov't was to say, "We are increasing all aide to Israel!" the response would either be, "Boo, why are we helping other countries" or, "Oh, are they starving or something? That's in Africa, right? Do they have AIDs?".
Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 12, 2014, 02:58:34 AM
Yeah because that's what's stated or meant here. Are you a new troll?
Yeah he is.
I'm sorry, I honestly just don't see where we fundamentally disagree other than you place more blame on, or at least its perceived as, putting more blame on the West than I do. Just as you say, "I do blame the Arab League, but I blame the West as well" I am saying the counter point... "I do blame the West, but I blame the Arab League as well".
QuoteMy problem is the human right violation reports which ARE BASED ON FACTS. My problem is that powerful policies created by certain zones that is designed to prevent any resolution something that has been discussed for a long time and repeatedly manipulated by USA. My problem is the fact that a country works on a war economy dictates who is to live and who is to die with obvious racist, religious crusades marketed as the exact opposite of it which it citizens believe in from atheist to religious zealot in some manner.
See, and this is where it gets me; you could literally replace USA with AL/Hamas, and think of this quote as only a statement about Palestine, and it would make the exact same amount of sense.
We are arguing over an issue that doesn't really exist; you blame both sides, I blame both sides, it's just we are perceiving the other as being harsher on "the other team" than they are "their team" and going from there.
QuoteSo Jewish Holocaust would not mean what it is now after all genocide survivors are dead?
Sorry, I did not elaborate on that enough...
The Holocaust happened less than a hundred years ago, which means there are surviving people who were full adults as well as their children who have a very direct emotional tie to the cause than there are for the Indian genocides, which started some 500 years ago. While it may be different in the rest of the world, for Americans that is too long ago to care about. If it didn't happen within our parents life time, who cares?
As for the Armenians; the children of the genocide families still live, though. For the natives, they have to go to their great-great grandparents to have relatives that lived during the peak of the genocide. Time generally makes people just not care as much as they use to. You have exceptions with feuds that go pretty far back, but even then at most it is generally 300 years at most...
QuoteBut it happened too long ago, next year wit will be a century old. Too long ago, Let's toss it. sarc/
In a generation or two, quite possibly, although it depends on culture; I have found that Middle Easterners, Asians, Africans... pretty much anyone that isn't European... tend to care about their cultural history more-so than the West.
Quote
No, they do not. They are showing the beauty of their native art, their beliefs. Not how they were annihilated. There is nothing in those museums that would pass the responsibility of a genocide history.
Dallas has an American Indian Genocide Museum. Houston has an Native American Genocide Museum. Again, I can only speak for local museums, but I can think of two that are purely dedicated to the NA-Genocide, structured just the same as Holocaust museums, and I would more than assume that other states have them.
QuoteYou are the one keep giving reasons for Israeli policy and the support it gets from USA with how people think; how they are just protecting themselves; how that it is their right...
You have clearly never read my posts on Israel, then. I have never supported the illegal actions of Israel (i.e. - the settlements, the intentional targeting of civilian groups with the intent to kill 1-2 terrorists within them, segregation [although the average Palestinian will have more rights under an Israeli gov't than a Hamas gov't]), I have only supported the right for them to be there, mostly living on land acquired legally and morally, and therefor have the right to defend themselves. If they commit war crimes then they should be held accountable for it; if they commit human rights violations, then they should be held accountable for it. I think the Likud party is a party of many terrorists, because not that long ago they were a terrorist organization.
That is about as far as I concede; any further and pretty much all you can ask from me is to say that Israel should either stand back at let Hamas kill everyone of them without a fight, or Israelis should simply pack their bags and leave the country.
And as for the support of the US, I have never said anything about they should receive support; I clearly stated earlier (I believe in this thread) that the US has no obligation, the most they should do is sell arms and equipment for a profit, maybe give a discount since they are an "ally", but not send support.
You are so busy accusing me of just going along with the American propaganda that you are creating for me points and positions I have never made or held.
While the Native American Genocide legitimized America's bad policies is interesting, and something I am mostly agreeing with, it is not particularly relevant to the topic at hand so I won't go to deep into that.
QuoteThey are living in corporate democracy based on far right.
That is all America has ever been, except during the early post-colonial days it was the landholders and intelligentsia instead of corporations. And honestly, I believe the average American IS aware of it at some level, they simply don't have the power to do anything about it and it's much easier to just put your head down and enjoy consumerism rather than worry about it.
I wrote a long post discussing the issues here. Then I dumped it. Fuck the Middle East. Nuke it and every nation in it out of existence. Problem solved.
Read the topic, meh'd.
Honestly I'm not pro or anti Israel. Not that I'm apathetic about the matter, but I see it rather as 2 gigantic retards slugging each other, while we have to somehow play referee when it isn't even our fight to begin with. If it isn't clear yet it should be: everything we do in that region results in a giant fucking headache for us. We'll get criticized if we do something, we'll get criticized if we do nothing. If we provide military assistance to one side is imperialism, if we try to set up negotiations we're bullying the weaker/more foreign/browner side, if we do nothing we're sitting by and letting atrocities happen. It's a fucking lose lose lose situation. It's a festering fucking sore and we need to cut ourselves loose before we get pulled into another major clusterfuck. Not that I don't feel sympathy for the people involved, I do, but just about everything we do there seems to be as effective as sticking your dick into a beehive. Get off the oil teat, start sourcing the oil from somewhere else, anything that will get us to just leave.
I'm not advocating total isolationism in regards to the Middle East, but I am advocating that we stop acting like world police. It's clear that when we set ourselves up for that role people find offense with absolutely everything we do. Leave Embassies and embassy security forces unless asked to leave, but that's it. If someone else wants to take up the mantel of "Middle East life support" let them, we don't need to waste anymore lives, money, and time in the Middle East. Hell, maybe they'll work something out, maybe they won't, but it shouldn't be our role anymore.
I'd say the biggest problem is that Palestinians have been taught that Hamas is the only effective advocate they have--a group Israel will not even pretend to negotiate with (they've only been pretending to talk to Fatah for years). Settlements have been completely withdrawn from Gaza yet keep spreading in the west bank. Fatah tried to negotiate and got worse than nothing--not even a continuation of the status quo but a resumption of settlement expansions--Hamas captures one Israeli soldier and trades him for more than 1000 prisoners. Add to that Hamas' charity work and perceived lack of corruption and it is no wonder they beat Fatah in election(s) and, in 2005 at least, held a 39 point advantage over Fatah in opinion polls. There was really no choice but to bring Hamas into the government which was seized upon as an excuse to put the peace talks out of their misery.
You kind of stop caring about Israel when they start bombing hospitals and facilities catered to the disabled:
http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/world/2014/07/12/israel-attacks-center-for-disabled-and-mosque-gaza/84fZNajvnJ7h2Q9n1SuhXO/story.html
-Nam
Quote from: Nam on July 12, 2014, 03:24:57 PM
You kind of stop caring about Israel when they start bombing hospitals and facilities catered to the disabled:
http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/world/2014/07/12/israel-attacks-center-for-disabled-and-mosque-gaza/84fZNajvnJ7h2Q9n1SuhXO/story.html
-Nam
I'm not defending anybody, but Hamas and other militant Islamic groups are known to set up and launch from facilities like that and then make sure the media gets an eyeful of what the bad Israelis do.
When I was a Christian, I had a friend who was a Messianic Jew. He had relatives in Jerusalem. He had access to Jewish based news media. the fact is that many, many atrocities were committed against the Jew that never made it to mainstream media. He told me he could prove that more than 20 acts of terrorism were committed for every reprisal. Every coin has 2 sides. The Islamists are very good at manipulating the media. I take everything with a grain of salt that comes from standard media sources. It is a mistake to assume, without knowing all the facts, that the Israelis are the evil monsters the media makes them out to be. However bad the Israelis might be, they have reasons for what they do.
Hey, I'm not saying militants wouldn't do that but is it the fault of the hospital who is trying to care for the injured? Should they bomb such a place? There are so many targets that Israel has, a hospital shouldn't be one of them even if the "bad guys" are there.
And Israel isn't innocent in anything; when they kill women and children they cease being innocent. Just like when the US or any other country does it.
-Nam
QuoteYou take every news with a grain of salt, but you are sure 'how bad Israelis might be, they have reason for what they do'?
Yes, that is what I believe. Same as I believe for every action Hamas takes, good or bad, there is a reason behind it. Now, do I agree with those reasons being valid? Yes and no, it depends on which one they present.
QuoteAnd your idea of Israeli policy is shaped by what? Fucking American media reporting on an ally?
I'm going to be honest... I have seen almost zero American coverage of Israel. Until I did some researching of it on my on, I didn't even really have any grasp that anything of any importance even happened there. The little bit I knew about them was that they were "child killers" and "the second apartheid state", and for the first... at least year and half, if not more... I was the one on the forum arguing about how evil Israel was vs people like PR and some other dude. And even then I still think alot of the stuff they do is really fucked up.
If you are going to keep on arguing against them, fine... I haven't read other people's posts for the most part in this thread so I don't know what they are saying. But stop fucking throwing my name in there like I am arguing some cut-and-paste American media argument for why Israel is great and we should be sucking their knobs and that I am sitting here all, "YAY LETS BOMB HOSPITALS", because when you do that it is clear as fuck to me you have not read a single thing I have posted and just are saying, "LOL U R MURICAN', SO CLEARLY U HATEZ DA PALESTINES!".
Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 13, 2014, 05:55:45 AM
Save your bullshit. Your name was included because of your approval.
I talked about massive media manipulation going on in the US for decades and how the culture and opinions are shaped by that. I talked about policies. In your case, I clearly even pointed out that you are perfectly able to evaluate any other situation in a healthy way when you are not personally connected to it.
But you are right about something. It was a mistake to except from you or any of the Americans to get something beyond "LOL U R MURICAN', SO CLEARLY U HATEZ DA PALESTINES!" out of all this what I am saying when their country's policy and massive ignorance is criticised. Because that's the limit. That's the best one can get from this culture. So that is my foolishness and I am trying to remedy that right now the best way, trust me.
On the other hand, some American member writing to nuke the nations in the Middle East out of existence is a very casual normal thing.
Shoe, you forgot to take your Prozac again.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 10, 2014, 10:50:04 AM
You don't have anything to offer beyond a few cock sucking politician lines which you keep repeating over and over again. oh and you still don't have a clue what is the issue here.
The issue appears to be your hatred.
It's like this.
You're not special.
You're not smarter than anyone here.
You don't possess any secret knowledge that no one else has access to.
You are manipulated by the media to the same extent as everyone else. If you can see through it... so can anyone else.
You're not special.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 13, 2014, 05:24:24 AM
I live in the Middle East. My life, my family's and loved ones' lives or hundreds of millions of other people's lives are not something to be annihilated
So use your head and consider that the jews feel the same way when muslims promise their annihilation.
*Mod*- Lets all take a breath before we start to really throw turds at each other. Much conversation has been in the tower about trying very hard to re-establish a more civil forum. We shall implement that as of now. There has been some great point and counter..lets keep it as civil as we can please, but we are not above putting someone on the sideline for a few days. Be careful with the next responses- aitm
Quote from: Berati on July 13, 2014, 12:06:04 PM
The issue appears to be your hatred.
Hatred of all Americans; no matter what they know, or believe.
Which is fine. Seems Stromboli hates all Muslims because they believe that if people would just wipe out the Middle East (minus Israel, I am sure) that it'll solve all the problems in that region. It just means Israel would gain more property, and the Muslim population in Africa and Asia (that wasn't effected) would blame Israel (and the US) and go to war.
If you're for Israel you hate Muslims.
If you're not for Israel you are an antisemite.
Lose/lose.
-Nam
It should be noted I posted that comment before I saw the mod's comment. I am on a phone, not as quick as a PC.
-Nam
Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 13, 2014, 01:03:11 PM
Really? Somebody makes a casual remark about nuking the region I live in, in the middle of a serious conversation and I am the one who forgot her prozac. Yeah right.
Except it's pretty clear Stromboli wasn't being serious. People are allowed to make non-serious remarks in a serious conversation to highlight a problem in the discussion. If you cannot recognize when this is happening, you need to exit the conversation.
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on July 13, 2014, 01:11:29 PM
Except it's pretty clear Stromboli wasn't being serious. People are allowed to make non-serious remarks in a serious conversation to highlight a problem in the discussion. If you cannot recognize when this is happening, you need to exit the conversation.
Serious or not that always seems to be the goto solution, and it's never helpful even if facetious.
-Nam
*Mod hat on*
As per drunkenshoe's request, I repost here her last messages in this topic.
Given that she won't be here to respond/defend herself in person, I formally ask you to refrain from commenting on her or her posts. Thank you very much.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 13, 2014, 05:24:24 AM
How much willfully stupid, ignorant AND hypocritical can you get in just one four lined post, stromboli? Also you Shiranu?
You take every news with a grain of salt, but you are sure 'how bad Israelis might be, they have reason for what they do'? And your idea of Israeli policy is shaped by what? Fucking American media reporting on an ally?
Do you even know what is happening right now? Isreal is hitting mosques and hospitals. And the proof they show is that they believe they should be hit, because they conceal rockets. But of of course we should believe in Israelis. They know what they do. Rest of the world should go fuck themselves. Because Americans think so.
Because all European news sources you can think of are just united with one aim of being anti-Israel just for kicks and giggles. Because Islam has a huge influence in Europe and on its media. Hey they are actually muslims, you know. They can make a fucking news up in a matter of days and change the world agenda just like that.
I live in the Middle East. My life, my family's and loved ones' lives or hundreds of millions of other people's lives are not something to be annihilated because you are annoyed you racist, jingoist worthless piece of shit. You get that? I don't want to have a conversation with you ever again.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 13, 2014, 05:55:45 AM
Save your bullshit. Your name was included because of your approval.
I talked about massive media manipulation going on in the US for decades and how the culture and opinions are shaped by that. I talked about policies. In your case, I clearly even pointed out that you are perfectly able to evaluate any other situation in a healthy way when you are not personally connected to it.
But you are right about something. It was a mistake to except from you or any of the Americans to get something beyond "LOL U R MURICAN', SO CLEARLY U HATEZ DA PALESTINES!" out of all this what I am saying when their country's policy and massive ignorance is criticised. Because that's the limit. That's the best one can get from this culture. So that is my foolishness and I am trying to remedy that right now the best way, trust me.
On the other hand, some American member writing to nuke the nations in the Middle East out of existence is a very casual normal thing.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 13, 2014, 01:03:11 PM
Really? Somebody makes a casual remark about nuking the region I live in, in the middle of a serious conversation and I am the one who forgot her prozac. Yeah right.
Go fuck yourselves, all of you.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 13, 2014, 01:21:59 PM
Sorry, I can't see any conversation here to carry a remark like that. If you write a detailed post on the subject and then delete it and mentioned this in that post in the middle of a thread like this, you need to know where that would go.
I will exit the conversation sweety, don't worry. You can all carry on on prozac peacefully.
Religion and politics, the two great dividers of humanity. :wall: Solitary
Funny, I am watching American news right now... And all I am hearing is Israel is tyranny, Israel is murdering women and children, Israel is in the wrong...
Quote from: Shiranu on July 14, 2014, 04:07:53 PM
Funny, I am watching American news right now... And all I am hearing is Israel is tyranny, Israel is murdering women and children, Israel is in the wrong...
Stereotypes aside, I get the impression from a probably unrepresentative circle of people I know that the American public is not pro Israel, but very divided. Washington, is pro Israel I think, but Americans themselves aren't so ready to jump to defend.
Quote from: Shiranu on July 14, 2014, 04:07:53 PM
Funny, I am watching American news right now... And all I am hearing is Israel is tyranny, Israel is murdering women and children, Israel is in the wrong...
The notion that "THE MEDIA" is 100% pro Israel and that the only reason any of us place a lot of the blame on the actions of Hamas and other islamic militants is because we have been brainwashed by "THE MEDIA"... is a big pile of steaming crap.
I'm sure there must be a name for this type of fallacy.
There is another thread going on concerning an anti jewish conspiracy theorist neighbor who makes the same claim (i.e. Jews control the media).
Quote from: SGOS on July 14, 2014, 04:43:52 PM
Stereotypes aside, I get the impression from a probably unrepresentative circle of people I know that the American public is not pro Israel, but very divided. Washington, is pro Israel I think, but Americans themselves aren't so ready to jump to defend.
Christiansâ,,¢ are only pro-Israel because when the apocalypse comes they'll make Jesus kill them first. What I was taught as a kid by churches attended (but not as explicitly blunt as that).
-Nam
Quote from: Shiranu on July 14, 2014, 04:07:53 PM
Funny, I am watching American news right now... And all I am hearing is Israel is tyranny, Israel is murdering women and children, Israel is in the wrong...
Yeah, over here as well. What a shame...
Quote from: SGOS on July 14, 2014, 04:43:52 PM
Stereotypes aside, I get the impression from a probably unrepresentative circle of people I know that the American public is not pro Israel, but very divided. Washington, is pro Israel I think, but Americans themselves aren't so ready to jump to defend.
From my experience, that is true. To dumb it down...alot... American liberals tend to be very "Pro-Palestine" (I.e. - Israelis are all murderers, they have no right to exist!" and conservatives tend to be very "Pro-Israel" (I.E. - "Fuck them Arab folks! God gave them Jews dat land!").
There are of course ALOT of exceptions, but that seems to be the general trend in my experience, take from that what you will. Very few people seem to have any real grasp that there are no good or bad sides (well, at least no good... maybe both are bad) in the conflict... like all other American policies polarization is a huge issue.
Quote from: Shiranu on July 14, 2014, 09:30:12 PM
From my experience, that is true. To dumb it down...alot... American liberals tend to be very "Pro-Palestine" (I.e. - Israelis are all murderers, they have no right to exist!" and conservatives tend to be very "Pro-Israel" (I.E. - "Fuck them Arab folks! God gave them Jews dat land!").
There are of course ALOT of exceptions, but that seems to be the general trend in my experience, take from that what you will. Very few people seem to have any real grasp that there are no good or bad sides (well, at least no good... maybe both are bad) in the conflict... like all other American policies polarization is a huge issue.
If liberals were pro-Israel, Conservatives would be Pro-Palestine.
-Nam
Quote from: Nam on July 14, 2014, 10:13:58 PM
If liberals were pro-Israel, Conservatives would be Pro-Palestine.
-Nam
On principal Id disagree.
The conservative base is largely christian. The Palestinians are muslim. Muslims have in the past shown no qualms to covering up christian buildings with their own buildings. This would cause a great deal of trouble with the christards if some "historical" monument to jebus was destroyed by dem moosleems.
It's a joke, man. Everything Obama (a Democrat) is for they are against even if they initially was for it. If Democrats (meaning Obama since he leads them) said, "I'm going to attack Palestine." Republicans would be against it.
It's all a joke. The sad thing is Democrats may actually have a stand, and are vocal of it but Republicans would only be vocal of their opposition of it; whether they have the same standing, or not.
-Nam
And you are proof as to why we hate ignorance. Have a nice day dodo. Solitary
"When Israelis in the occupied territories now claim that they have to defend themselves, they are defending themselves in the sense that any military occupier has to defend itself against the population they are crushing. You can’t defend yourself when you’re militarily occupying someone else’s land. That’s not defense. Call it what you like, it’s not defense."
― Noam Chomsky
They should support neither side, both side are fighting under the delusion that their "god" is on their side. Who would you side with? the fanatical Zionist or the fanatical Islamist. It makes no sense at all for an atheist to take sides IMO.
America needs to stop getting involved in things we should be. Why waist our precious soldiers lives on it? Also until religion dies there will never be peace.