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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Hinduism and Buddhism => Topic started by: marymargaret on June 01, 2014, 01:01:37 AM

Title: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: marymargaret on June 01, 2014, 01:01:37 AM
Hello. I'm not a Buddhist but I have spent some time reading about it. It appears that Westerners have a different take on some of the concepts. Maybe those of you who have a better understanding could offer your opinion.

One thing that annoys the heck out of me is hearing some one gloat over another person's problems by saying "it's karma" or "what goes around - comes around". They act as if there's a cosmic scorekeeper or god punishing people. I don't share this belief- I understand the basic meaning of karma as simply action. I get the cause and effect aspect, but I think it's more about the variables in play. Status, culture, and public opinion determine the outcome more than any metaphysical concept.

I visited a Buddhist site and by reading the threads on the subject- it's a hot button subject. They seem divided on the technicalities and how rebirth comes into play.  I'm curious how an atheist leaning Buddhist sees it.

   

Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: Poison Tree on June 01, 2014, 01:11:25 AM
I don't know that I lean Buddhist, but I tend to think in the western instant-Karma way: if you treat people like shit they are going to treat you the same way. I know this isn't actually "karma" (it has nothing to do with rebirth and all that) but that is how most Americans use the term--to simply mean "your actions have repercussions".
Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on June 01, 2014, 01:13:43 AM
It's just as much woo as the idea of gods, and I'm content to leave it at that.
Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: marymargaret on June 01, 2014, 01:28:57 AM
Quote from: Poison Tree on June 01, 2014, 01:11:25 AM
I don't know that I lean Buddhist, but I tend to think in the western instant-Karma way: if you treat people like shit they are going to treat you the same way. I know this isn't actually "karma" (it has nothing to do with rebirth and all that) but that is how most Americans use the term--to simply mean "your actions have repercussions".

I understand your point- cause and effect. It fits in many cases, but it also depends on the people/circumstances. There's a phrase- " No good deed goes unpunished". It sounds cynical but there are those who enjoy taking advantage of well meaning people. We have an epidemic of bullying, for example. I suppose those people get targeted because they don't fit into the social norms. People then explain that this is due to past lives nonsense and they deserve the abuse. I think belief in karma and rebirth can rob people of empathy and encourage indifference.
Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: Hydra009 on June 01, 2014, 02:50:43 AM
All I know about karma is 1) it decays 2) it does tons of damage to you if you have a lot of swamps in play

I'm not very religious.
Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: SGOS on June 01, 2014, 07:09:49 AM
Before I ever heard of Karma, I remember being taught the fundamentals of the Christian Hell by one of those vindictive Christian types that would gloat with an evil smile, while she explained about all the non-Christians who would burn and suffer in Hell for not accepting her god.

As Drunkenshoe pointed out, the concept of Karma seems to be universal.  People want to see other people punished, usually for things that the watchers don't like, but sometimes just for the enjoyment of watching others get punished.  It's starts early in life with children who like to "get others in trouble at school." 

Hell is like the ultimate Karma.  All those bastards that pissed you off during your lifetime get sent there, while you are vindicated by being the last man standing.  And Hell isn't just some random consequence.  It is totally assured by an imaginary all seeing all powerful score keeper that records all the things they did that you didn't like.  The all powerful score keeper thus does your bidding, and makes all those bastards permanently sorry forever for pissing you off.  In Christianity, Karma in the form of Heaven or Hell, are not just things that exist.  Their dynamics are even explained.

This ultimate Karma is just one of many juicy carrots that make Christianity and other whacky religions such a seductive belief.  They appeal to universal needs one would invent for their own perfect world.
Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: stromboli on June 01, 2014, 09:06:27 AM
What goes around comes around. I don't know that karma can be described or defined as a natural law, but life does seem to balance the scales.
Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: aitm on June 01, 2014, 09:32:05 AM
People like the idea of karma because it obviously means ass-holes get their just "reward" sooner or later. But rarely do we suggest karma when a person is nice and friendly to us. Its karma bitch, it what we say when the ass-holes finds a large dent in their car and no one to blame. But when a nice person gets a nice surprise we call that luck most of the time. We hope karma smacks the ass-holes but figure luck is for the nice people....or not.
Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: marymargaret on June 01, 2014, 11:42:02 AM
I agree- karma does seem to be applied according to one's biased view. It's just the same carrot and stick tool used by all religions. I do think there is an elegance and logic that governs (not sure if that's the right word to use) the universe. Have any of you seen the movie, Cloud Atlas? I don't think it got great reviews but I loved it so much that I read the book, too. The movie and book were done in an unusual format that skipped from 6 characters' lives and how their actions affected others. This is how I see karma. Our actions as individuals and as cultures create the future for those who follow. We have a huge responsibility. I think religion trivializes it. What we allow to grow will become dominate forces that create our living conditions. I think many in power understand this and employ those skilled in manipulation. I hope I don't sound too "out there" in my first post but I think this is the only group where you can talk about this stuff without having an avalanche of religious dogma bury the OP. Thanks for so many thoughtful responses.
Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: Solitary on June 01, 2014, 11:51:11 AM
Modern Buddhism and it various schools have been corrupted by other religions and even though some aspects of what Buddha taught are still taught, there were no prayer, rituals, spirits, though shall not's written in stone, or a belief in God. Buddha never believed he was a god or had divine help in his teachings. In later life he said death was like blowing out a candle. I've been told by modern Buddhist that the western mind cannot understand Buddhism, and he didn't mean what he said. Outside of being so arrogant, how else can it be interpreted as being non existence? In Hinduism he is considered one of the gods. He died eating poison mushrooms, not very spiritual, or mental to me. I think his original teaching are a good philosophy to live by, and his suggestions on how to do it, but not absolute rules, also good. Basically he is saying live life to the fullest and do everything in moderation, don't worry about metaphysical subjects, and relax. Solitary
Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on June 01, 2014, 12:06:17 PM
The problem is that a lot of people who don't believe in actual 'karma' still subcontiously believe in a moral well-orderedness of society. Basically, we designate moral worth to everyone on the basis of two different processes. On the one side we want to give everyone the same moral worth, as through basic human rights or citizen rights. But subconsciously we form a hierarchy of attributes which we give more or less moral worth to. We link these attributes to visual factors; like appearance or a very visual family drama etc. ... Because of this inane belief in a well-orderedness we justify the linking these attributes to these visual factors and thus the devision of moral worth to those factors. Basically, we justify our own preconceptions.

(Sayer, A. (2005). Class, Moral Worth and Recognition. Sociology, 93, 947-963.)
Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: Shol'va on June 02, 2014, 05:32:27 PM
The whole "what goes around, comes around" has some very valid reasoning behind it.
It has nothing to do with karma or transcendental stuff. Basically, if you're an asshole, eventually someone else is going to be an even bigger asshole to you in return, either as a consequence of your assholery, or as a consequence of pure chance.
I typically see this in bad drivers. Someone cuts me off and causes me to slam on the brakes. My immediate emotional reaction is one to get mad at them, but I reason my way out of that emotion by rationalizing the fact that they will eventually cause an accident and hopefully not injure someone, and as a result learn a lesson and drive better.

On the flip side of assholery is being a leader by example. That is what I personally strive to do. When others see you as a model and start shaping their behavior to be more like you in order to better themselves is when you know you have an actual positive impact on people. That is a big part of my job, just so I don't say it is contingent on it.
Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on June 02, 2014, 06:40:31 PM
People justify all manner of dumb shit from murder to swiping things at stores by saying things like, "They had it coming because [insert bullshit]."  Karma is just another excuse for bad behavior because most people believe the dumb shit they do isn't actually dumb shit. The same applies to peoples self perception of their own intelligence. Some of the dumbest fucks you meet believe they're smarter than everyone else.
I understand the concept behind karma, but I also know a lot of shitheads who continually get away with rotten shit and never seem to pay a price for it. Likewise I know good, decent people who seem to always pay the price for the shitheads. Luckily most people are pretty decent because if they weren't the worlds population would probably decrease dramatically.
Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: PickelledEggs on June 02, 2014, 06:44:18 PM
Karma is real, but I don't think it has anything to do with "energy" or some similar bullshit. It's just another way of saying "word travels fast".

If you do something good, chances are someone will spread the word that you're a nice person. If you do something to be a dick, someone will spread the word that your are a belligerent asshole.
Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: Shiranu on June 02, 2014, 07:40:27 PM
I don't think "negative" karma will necessarily effect the doer, nor "positive". Imo it's a way of saying that one's "negative" action will cause a negative action at a further point in time; I bully a kid, he grows up to be a bully, who's kid grows up to be a bully, etc.. Or I give a guy money, who then is in a happy mood and helps a woman who stumbled, who feels nicer than normal and donates to a charity, who...

Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: Jmpty on June 04, 2014, 02:07:45 PM
In the popular understanding kamma is sometimes identified with fate, but this is a total misconception utterly inapplicable to the Buddhist doctrine. Kamma means volitional action, action springing from intention, which may manifest itself outwardly as bodily deeds or speech, or remain internally as unexpressed thoughts, desires and emotions. The Buddha distinguishes kamma into two primary ethical types: unwholesome kamma, action rooted in mental states of greed, hatred and delusion; and wholesome kamma, action rooted in mental states of generosity or detachment, goodwill and understanding. The willed actions a person performs in the course of his life may fade from memory without a trace, but once performed they leave subtle imprints on the mind, seeds with the potential to come to fruition in the future when they meet conditions conducive to their ripening.
Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: Aupmanyav on June 05, 2014, 01:45:50 AM
Theists have all kind of beliefs. Hindus do believe that there is a scorekeeper (they even give the name, Chitragupta) and the Lord of Death and Dharma (Yama) punishes or rewards souls after checking the account. What form the soul takes in next life also depends on its actions in previous life. Buddha was not very clear on karma especially with respect to reincarnation. He said though the self is no more the karma lingers. Now how can karma linger without the self? Unable to explain, he discouraged contemplation on the subject and said that it is an imponderable. Contemplated, it waxes the mind (and causes madness). It does not help in removal of sorrows in life. No one should gloat on the effects of bad karmas, whether Hindu or Buddhist, it should be pitied. Who knows what effect one's own karmas would have in a future life?

Basically, karma is a social construct created to make people engage in good, socially constructive acts, and desist from evil, socially destructive acts.
Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: bhaktajan on December 06, 2014, 12:43:42 PM
Quote from: stromboli on June 01, 2014, 09:06:27 AM
What goes around comes around. I don't know that karma can be described or defined as a natural law, but life does seem to balance the scales.

Ya see what needs to learnt is that the subject of KARMA.

Is a subject matter that is fully covered and described officially in FOREIGN TEXT BOOKS.

If a hillbilly has a euphemism to describe some--- TERMINOLOGY ---as official defined in a college level text book ---then one must learn what those text book define the word as meaning.

This is called intellectual education ---Hard hats and overalls are not requisite for knowing the official lingo.
Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: Deidre32 on April 22, 2015, 11:21:43 AM
I believe in reaping what one sows…there’s nothing spiritual or religious about the sentiment, despite religions trying to hijack it for their own use. Bad things happen to good people, but good things happen to bad people, too. I happen to think though that a good example of karma/reaping what we sow is if you treat poorly, over time…you might find yourself alone. Common sense really, but karma sounds so …cool and hipster. ^_^

Please don't be mad at me that I opened up an old thread. :=P
Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: PopeyesPappy on April 22, 2015, 11:35:22 AM
Quote from: aitm on June 01, 2014, 09:32:05 AM
People like the idea of karma because it obviously means ass-holes get their just "reward" sooner or later. But rarely do we suggest karma when a person is nice and friendly to us. Its karma bitch, it what we say when the ass-holes finds a large dent in their car and no one to blame. But when a nice person gets a nice surprise we call that luck most of the time. We hope karma smacks the ass-holes but figure luck is for the nice people....or not.

Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: doorknob on April 22, 2015, 11:47:18 AM
I feel as though my ex accrued some real bad karma. He was quite a bastard in his younger years.

Any how he's having a shit storm of bad luck these days. The only reason I feel bad about it though is because he's actually changing his life around and this is making it harder for him to maintain.

I could go into details but I won't.

Do I believe in Karma? I use to believe in the cosmic justice. But after seeing scum get away with shit and coming out completely unscathed I no longer believe. I've also known really good people who've had one hellacious life!
Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: drunkenshoe on April 22, 2015, 11:48:13 AM
We all exist on the same geographical area: it is called a planet. Our lives are not that different from each other -even though you'd love to think that yours is different. We are all ordinary people living similar lives, doing similar jobs, feeling similar feelings, thinking similar thoughts, giving similar reactions to environment around us, doing similar things to each other.

When you are not involved in it, it is called karma. When it is a reward, you deserved it because your karma is good. When it is bad, of course it has nothing to do with you. it's either bad luck or people are evil.

Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: Aupmanyav on April 25, 2015, 06:58:46 AM
Quote from: Deidre32 on April 22, 2015, 11:21:43 AM
I believe in reaping what one sows…there’s nothing spiritual or religious about the sentiment, despite religions trying to hijack it for their own use. Bad things happen to good people, but good things happen to bad people, too. I happen to think though that a good example of karma/reaping what we sow is if you treat poorly, over time…you might find yourself alone. Common sense really, but karma sounds so …cool and hipster. ^_^
Agree to all that you write. Karma actually answers why bad things happen to good people and bad people may not be punished in this life. Karma and rebirth are extensions of your view.
Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on April 25, 2015, 07:57:14 AM
Quote from: Aupmanyav on April 25, 2015, 06:58:46 AM
Karma actually answers why bad things happen to good people and bad people may not be punished in this life.

I don't think Thats a question with a proper answer. That is to say; questions like why do bad things happen to good people never sit right with me. To me they always seem to imply and evoke Some sort of universal justice. Why do bad things happen to good people holds in it The implication that we have reason to suspect that it Should be different. But seeing as their is no evidence of a force (intelligent or otherwise) that acts like a Grand justifier The better question would be, to me, why wouldnt bad things happen to good people?
That question might lead you to answer such as being a kind soul will make those around you help you and be kind to you. If you want to call that karma, i don't think it is a fitting term; unhelpful and vague at best and deliberately confusing at worst. But either way it doesnt logically lead to conclude it goes beyond preventing only a share solely of deliberate man-made 'bad things'.
Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: Aupmanyav on May 02, 2015, 11:39:29 AM
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on April 25, 2015, 07:57:14 AM
I don't think Thats a question with a proper answer. That is to say; questions like why do bad things happen to good people never sit right with me. To me they always seem to imply and evoke Some sort of universal justice. Why do bad things happen to good people holds in it The implication that we have reason to suspect that it Should be different. But seeing as their is no evidence of a force (intelligent or otherwise) that acts like a Grand justifier The better question would be, to me, why wouldnt bad things happen to good people?
That question might lead you to answer such as being a kind soul will make those around you help you and be kind to you. If you want to call that karma, i don't think it is a fitting term; unhelpful and vague at best and deliberately confusing at worst. But either way it doesnt logically lead to conclude it goes beyond preventing only a share solely of deliberate man-made 'bad things'.
You see, Mr. Obvious, I am a strong atheist. I do not believe in karma beyond one life that we have. I was trying to explain the theist view-point in Hinduism. There is no ambiguity in it. Bad things happening to good people are the result of wrong actions of these people in their previous lives - that is the karma view of theist Hindus.
Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: Givemeareason on May 22, 2015, 03:57:31 PM
Quote from: marymargaret on June 01, 2014, 01:01:37 AM
Hello. I'm not a Buddhist but I have spent some time reading about it. It appears that Westerners have a different take on some of the concepts. Maybe those of you who have a better understanding could offer your opinion.

One thing that annoys the heck out of me is hearing some one gloat over another person's problems by saying "it's karma" or "what goes around - comes around". They act as if there's a cosmic scorekeeper or god punishing people. I don't share this belief- I understand the basic meaning of karma as simply action. I get the cause and effect aspect, but I think it's more about the variables in play. Status, culture, and public opinion determine the outcome more than any metaphysical concept.

I visited a Buddhist site and by reading the threads on the subject- it's a hot button subject. They seem divided on the technicalities and how rebirth comes into play.  I'm curious how an atheist leaning Buddhist sees it.



Rather than feeling you need to adhere to a religion my suggestion is that you see what you can borrow or gain from it.  I have been been engaged for a very long time in ideas that I borrowed from budhism on a path of self realization.  So the question is what do you hope to gain from budhism?

Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: Nihil-ist on August 24, 2015, 06:14:17 PM
Quote from: aitm on June 01, 2014, 09:32:05 AM
People like the idea of karma because it obviously means ass-holes get their just "reward" sooner or later. But rarely do we suggest karma when a person is nice and friendly to us. Its karma bitch, it what we say when the ass-holes finds a large dent in their car and no one to blame. But when a nice person gets a nice surprise we call that luck most of the time. We hope karma smacks the ass-holes but figure luck is for the nice people....or not.

There's many different versions of it. The mainstream one is from a materialist perspective. People who seek revenge through karma have no idea what it is about.


Part of the karmaic teachings is there are no separate events. The flame of the candle is many flames not just one. The end of a war isn't really an end it continues to have repercussions forever.
Treating someone rudely doesn't end with the event where you treated them rudely. The results of your actions continue to reap repercussions whether or not you see them.

It goes beyond material gain/loss.
If you do something and you "know" you shouldn't most of the repercussions will happen in the realm of your mind. 
If you follow your karma(true will) you will have a better state of mind, peace and calm come naturally if you don't then you'll been in constant fear, worry, and anxiety.



Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: aitm on August 24, 2015, 09:43:10 PM
Quote from: Nihil-ist on August 24, 2015, 06:14:17 PM
There's many different versions of it. The mainstream one is from a materialist perspective. People who seek revenge through karma have no idea what it is about.


Part of the karmaic teachings is there are no separate events. The flame of the candle is many flames not just one. The end of a war isn't really an end it continues to have repercussions forever.
Treating someone rudely doesn't end with the event where you treated them rudely. The results of your actions continue to reap repercussions whether or not you see them.

It goes beyond material gain/loss.
If you do something and you "know" you shouldn't most of the repercussions will happen in the realm of your mind. 
If you follow your karma(true will) you will have a better state of mind, peace and calm come naturally if you don't then you'll been in constant fear, worry, and anxiety.




sorry, if it takes that much crap to explain a simple idea then the crap is just crap.
Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: CrucifyCindy on August 24, 2015, 09:55:26 PM
Quote from: aitm on August 24, 2015, 09:43:10 PM
sorry, if it takes that much crap to explain a simple idea then the crap is just crap.

Can we have an Unlike button but that crap is getting really annoying. In fact I consider it trolling.
Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: Nihil-ist on August 24, 2015, 10:24:13 PM
Quote from: aitm on August 24, 2015, 09:43:10 PM
sorry, if it takes that much crap to explain a simple idea then the crap is just crap.

Yeah gravity is shit for the explanation is far too long... Come on you can do better than that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity

Quote from: CrucifyCindy on August 24, 2015, 09:55:26 PM
Can we have an Unlike button but that crap is getting really annoying. In fact I consider it trolling.
Visual aids. We should be using all the tools at our disposal in this era of technology.
If I say don't think about an apple do you see
Apple the fruit
or
Apple the logo
or
apple the word
?
Title: Re: Karma- overused/misunderstood?
Post by: Baruch on August 24, 2015, 10:33:03 PM
Some people work textually, others work visually.  I knew I guy once, every response was a video, usually a music video (with deep lyrics).  Even I couldn't follow him ;-)