Assume the usual obligatory apologies and excuses.......
okay?
good.
Don't you think "patriotism" would be a pretty natural occurrence in a society where most people were considered part of the society? I mean lets face it the gladiators certainly had no allegiance nor would slaves, but in a "normal" society or culture "patriotism" would be no more than self preservation of ones life and of ones family and friends.
But along comes elitism, or perhaps power...or wealth..and the idea that using this concept and calling it "patriotism" could be pretty goddamn useful and very profitable. Why waste your kids when you can convince others to willingly die for your economic well being under the guise of "patriotism"? And lord help the fuckers who would DARE to oppose such noble actions as the patriot. The mother who just last month hated the government and the idea of military is now forced...indeed FORCED to not just wave the flag of patriotism but spew the rhetoric and champion the cause against all common sense and knowledge simply as a way to justify her son or daughters impending death as a greater good for all instead of a minion in the game of economics for a few who shall never ever feel that same illustrious if not mistaken sense of patriotism.
And for the rest of their lives they themselves force themself to follow this argumen,t to uphold it even when deep down they so vehemently disagree that they privately vomit at night.
And we hold politicians to pointedly pin little fake flags to their label to show us how that some fucking how makes them patriots.
I am a patriot only if I want to be. For if I am demanded to be, then how can I truly be one?
Fuck patriotism. It's a fucking shield put up to avoid criticism of the military, or it's increasingly used by fucktard conservatives along with "take back America" (whatever the fuck that means). I'm proud of my country when it does things worth being proud of, but I'm not going to blindly wave a flag around like it's the greatest country on Earth just for being there.
I think that even some veterans are becoming just a little too wrapped up in making sure everyone knows they deserve to get a pat on the back. If you only have warm and fuzzies during one day, you are most certainly not a patriot.
Patriot is the most over used word in our society. Any monkey cab call himself a patriot. I have a ship's hat my son bought me for one of the ships I was on, but I don't wear it now. And I don't fly the flag, though I used to. The idea has lost all meaning and I don't want to be identified with the pinheads hereabouts that proclaim their patriotism on everything they own.
Another side to that is I live a few miles from a Harley Davidson dealership. Not knocking Harleys, they are nice bikes. But it seems every nut bag right wing "patriot" owns one, for every day I see these guys and girls going past with enough "Murica, love it or leave it" shit on them to decorate ten parades. Guys with POW-MIA patches that are too young to have served in iraq, much less Nam. Just about every 4th guy here is a retired military. I see so many hats that even my fairly unique one gets lost in the maze. Patriotism has lost all meaning, so I don't even use the word anymore.
I did twenty years in the USN. I didn't do it for the money.
Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on May 25, 2014, 11:10:21 PM
Fuck patriotism. It's a fucking shield put up to avoid criticism of the military, or it's increasingly used by fucktard conservatives along with "take back America" (whatever the fuck that means). I'm proud of my country when it does things worth being proud of, but I'm not going to blindly wave a flag around like it's the greatest country on Earth just for being there.
I agree Skeletal, an its being used in much the same way over here by those against independance for Scotland. Im proud of my country also but when all this flag waving nonsense starts it really fkn annoys me, Scotland as part of the UK was dragged into an illegal war by Bush and Blair and many soldiers died for nothing really, the sooner the west gets th fk out of the middle east th better imo
Good thing there's only one definition/usage of a word, simplifies the reflexive responses to it.
There's nothing wrong with feeling a certain camaraderie with your countrymen, fellowship is important in a society. Being proud of the things your country does right, caring about how it functions, voting for improvements and taking part in said processes is also good. One should always try to better society, and when you care about something there's nothing wrong with being proud when it's well deserved.
Ignoring when your country does something wrong, holding it sacred, etc. is on the other hand 100% destructive and should be avoided at all cost.
If just half the world's citizenry knew the true meaning of patriotism the word would be struck from every language on earth, but then replaced with some other bullshit, meaningless term such as "Aren't we all just fucking wonderfulism".
Part of the problem is patriotism conjures up some fuzzy idea, but completely shoves under the rug the true reasons we do this shit in the first place.
Maybe we should call it all Gary Sinisism. Isn't that a nice fuzzy Hollywoodism?
I remember well my brother and him getting drafted, Patriotism and the draft kinda is somewhat contradictory. But we went and survived but he never drank the kool-aid. Now at his age, I think he has some real real resentment with the whole NEW re-vitalised patriotism that is being forcibly swept across the land. Now he is very very patriotic, far more than ever before. And I know many like him who are resentful and rightfully so, because of the treatment they recieved, but I am somewhat surprised he is not interested in engaging in his old "truth-talk". I appreciate, like we all do, supporting the poor bastards being forced to sacrifice themselves so billionaires can become richer, I am just disappointed that more don't acknowledge the truth behind the whole military bullshit and put and end to this non-spoken truth of the idea of patriotism.
Go to the VA and the "patriotism" sales job is in full force, but amazingly not as many people there are really buying. You see plenty of guys wearing this fake bomber jackets with whatever branch they were in, but you don't hear much talk about patriotism. I hear a lot of criticism of the military and the clown show that is "leadership".
:biggrin2: From instant quotation dictionary. :kiss: Staff.
QuoteThis heroism at command, this senseless violence, this accused bombast of patriotism---how intensely I despise them! Albert Einstein
:butt: Solitary
Just watched a CNN puff piece about a guy who got both legs blown off and now he jumps out of airplanes and everything is peachy, but what the message is really is if you have any problems with the military it's YOUR problem so suck it up and be a tough guy. How patriotic to tell us that men and women who serve and who do have problems with health, mental health, etc., are just pussies and not as tough as this guy. Patroitically suck it up. Fuck you CNN.
Thats the point APA, cherish and worship and hail those who are normal,,,,if yer missing body parts,,,well,,, you're just expendable,
Quote from: aitm on May 26, 2014, 08:21:26 PM
Thats the point APA, cherish and worship and hail those who are normal,,,,if yer missing body parts,,,well,,, you're just expendable,
Okay, so I'm expendable. You make me feel special.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on May 26, 2014, 09:00:19 PM
Okay, so I'm expendable. You make me feel special.
This is not about you or the tens of thousand of those like you. Get off the horse. I issued the obligatory disclaimers in a perfectly ambigous intro.........
so there.......I still love you....in a non faggy way of course.
Quote from: aitm on May 26, 2014, 09:37:58 PM
This is not about you or the tens of thousand of those like you. Get off the horse. I issued the obligatory disclaimers in a perfectly ambigous intro.........
so there.......I still love you....in a non faggy way of course.
Prove it and blow me.
In a non-faggy way, of course.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on May 26, 2014, 10:03:33 PM
Prove it and blow me.
In a non-faggy way, of course.
thats why yer so gotdamn annoyin......yer so fuckin demandin.....
:flowers:
It might have a dictionary meaning, but when I see nutters like the oathkeepers waving flags and calling themselves patriots it has been taken so far out of context it has become meaningless.
I did my patriotic duty and watched Chinese made fireworks outside my window at Hunington Field where the Columbus Clippers play about 6 blocks away from here. They set em off whenever they win so I'm especially patriotic..... I guess.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on May 26, 2014, 06:42:03 PM
Just watched a CNN puff piece about a guy who got both legs blown off and now he jumps out of airplanes and everything is peachy, but what the message is really is if you have any problems with the military it's YOUR problem so suck it up and be a tough guy. How patriotic to tell us that men and women who serve and who do have problems with health, mental health, etc., are just pussies and not as tough as this guy. Patroitically suck it up. Fuck you CNN.
I've been called a coward because I have PTSD from military psychiatrists-----------once! Solitary
I pretty much use the words patriotism and jingoism interchangeably. I don't see much difference between the two. Patriotism, like jingoism, is not something I view as positive. They both are used to reinforce tribal values, one of mankind's least cerebral pursuits.
Before I posted the patriotism/jingoism thoughts, I read that Wikipedia article. There are subtle differences between the two in my mind, but I think they have more similarities than differences.
:super: Solitary
Quote from: drunkenshoe on May 27, 2014, 09:57:27 AM3 million civilians are dead because of Afghanistan and Iraq 'fiasco' of USA supported by other countries...
Where did you get this number?
Quote from: SGOS on May 27, 2014, 08:31:30 AM
Before I posted the patriotism/jingoism thoughts, I read that Wikipedia article. There are subtle differences between the two in my mind, but I think they have more similarities than differences.
In practice today the differences are too subtle for me. When people accuse others of being unpatriotic because they don't support a foreign war, the distinction between patriotic and jingoistic has lost all meaning.
Wow shoe. I guess this means we're not going to get to hear your Ethel Murman impersonation singing God Bless America, huh? :eek:
Quote from: drunkenshoe on May 27, 2014, 06:59:27 AM
Sounds very 'reasonable' and 'correct', actually feels 'right', doesn't it? What fucking bullshit.
You are basically defining some sort of religion or even a god and urge people to take an apologist position when it fails and then call it 'improvement and development' if they are able to recognise its failure.
Congratulations, you are supporting the number one cause why humanity cannot reach in any real civilisation level
It was actually supposed to be a "fuck you", from me to patriotism. Patriotism is utter pathetic shit. What I wrote that's good and useful is not patriotism - it's just caring about the society you live in, which is the sane and moral thing to do.
A religion? None of what you write makes any sense, and is just pure laughable BS. WTF?
It was humor shoe.. I'm more or less on the same plane with you about this nonsense of patrotism.
Ethel Murman had a loud obnoxious voice that I know you don't have. :lol:
Quote from: drunkenshoe on May 27, 2014, 01:24:19 PM
I know. I just wanted to add. x
..and make me feel guilty. I know. It's alright. :lol:
I'm genetically predisposed to feel guilty around women in general. Martha already figured that out on our first date. :eek:
Quote from: drunkenshoe on May 27, 2014, 01:23:24 PM
Yeah, "I can't make the connection, so it must be 'laughable bullshit! WTF'. :lol:
Instead of quoting the annoying part to get back, try to read the whole post. May be something will stick to make sense some time later.
I did read the whole post. You said that caring about and trying to make the society you live in better by necessity lead to a dogmatic ideology where you cannot criticize said society ... And then went on an even weirder rant, none of which was connected to my post at all.
I do get that you just misunderstood my post, somehow reading into it that I was a proponent of "patriotism" trying to make it sound clean. But you have now been corrected (granted I was harsh, but your reply was insane), and you still want me to see some "connection"? Color me confused.
That was not the negative bit about patriotism. That was simply listing good, useful qualities that often gets labelled as patriotism. I then went on to add this, which was the insult to patriotism:
QuoteIgnoring when your country does something wrong, holding it sacred, etc. is on the other hand 100% destructive and should be avoided at all cost.
Which was the "fuck you" to patriotism.
But yes, if you think no one is in any capacity to do anything, change anything, etc. in any country without becoming a criminal ... Well, then we are certainly on completely different planes of existence. Not every country are as corrupt as your country must be in order for you to make such a statement. Hell, even in the US the people have managed to legalize gay marriage, etc. in certain states, proving your argument 100% wrong. And why not be proud when the people or their elected officials stands up to religious zealots, immoral politics/laws or just making the right call on an important issue?
Drunkenshoe, can you please actually try to read what's presented to you? I said "Not every country is as corrupt as your country must be in order for you to make such a statement." I never stated that no country was corrupt. Of course every country is corrupt ... And now your entire argument centers on how I think this obvious fact, that I can't even be interpreted to have dismissed (except by you, somehow) isn't true, and is extreme? No! What I commented on as insane was the notion that no one can change anything in a country (for the better) without becoming a criminal. That was my injection. (You would have known that if you had actually read my post). This belief of yours is demonstrated wrong on a regular basis.
QuoteBy the way, if you are going to skip what you like and answer to what you want, like you have been doing since the first post, just don't bother to answer, OK?
I have read every single word you have written in reply to me! This is becoming weirder and weirder. You are the one throwing in exploding strawmen, never addressing a single points I actually make (but instead making the most irrational interpretation of it as plausible, and lonely focusing on said, extreme strawman), and go on as if nothing has happened when you are proven wrong.
QuoteI said the same thing that in the post in a different way "You are not saying something critical against patriotism, you are actually counting the common bullshit sauce that patriotism is served with in the 20-21st century."
I have replied to this, I just didn't quote your entire post, because it was so off - but I did address your main critique of the arguments, including this. And now you're screaming about me not reading your posts ...
And how on earth can you think that this is my point? I have repeatedly stated that these were "GOOD". That was my reply to the quote above. That these are useful traits! It's stated in my first post and it's stated everywhere since. How could you not have read that??? I do NOT agree with you. What you are repeating now is not a restatement of my point in a different way. This is getting surreal.
Patriotism is too often confused with nationalism or chauvinism. It's an oft-abused term. I would not consider the Tea Party Patriots to be patriots, for instance. Rush Limbaugh is not a patriot. A true patriot wants to see his country become a better, fairer, juster, more civilized place.
I think this will be my last reply, because nothing you say make any coherent sense as a reply to my post, continues to be crazy strawmen, and demonstrates that you are simply ignoring everything I'm writing. I will get rude now, because what you write in correlation to my post is just too insane.
QuoteThe word extreme was used in my post with "I see that it sounds alien to you and you think it's extreme. Well it is not. It's realistic and blunt that's all. " Meaning you think the way I am looking at this is extreme, because it is alien to you, but it is not. It's realistic. Because you are looking at this with pink glasses.
WTF are you even talking about. I agreed that all countries were corrupt, demonstrated you were wrong about your crazy strawman interpretation of my points - and you are still pulling this BS?
QuoteYes, people cannot change anything. This is not a belief, it is called reality; the thing that doesn't go away when you don't agree with it.
A reality demonstrated wrong every time we get a new law. This is demonstrable reality. What drugs are you using? It's proven over and over again. Things fucking change. Ideals change, ideas change. Compare society to society just 50 years ago. See the changes in norms and morals - see the changes in laws. You are demonstrably proven wrong. You live in a fantasy world! Of course said changes will usually benefit the power center - but so what? What relevance does it have? It does not change the truth. And then you go on about dying for your country and other patriotic BS in a reply to someone who rejects patriotism.
As for "being proud" I never said being proud of yourself when you haven't achieved anything ... You can be proud of what you care about, without placing said pride on yourself. Your nonsense and strawmen knows no end. You can be proud of your children, friends, community, etc. If you have something to help, you can be proud of yourself as well.
I did not read all of your post because it had too little connection to anything relevant in the discussion between the two of us, and comes off as an insane rant of strawmen, with you seemingly thinking you are educating me ...
I am incredibly disappointed in you after this discussion. You appear to believe your own disingenuous and insane strawmen. It's just sad at this point.
Quote from: Atheon on May 28, 2014, 02:00:51 AM
Patriotism is too often confused with nationalism or chauvinism. It's an oft-abused term. I would not consider the Tea Party Patriots to be patriots, for instance. Rush Limbaugh is not a patriot. A true patriot wants to see his country become a better, fairer, juster, more civilized place.
This is how I see it as well. In my case, I was raised in small town America to believe that a person should love and support their country. You could say that I was socially conditioned or brainwashed, and I wouldn't argue with you about it, or even apologize for it. I understand that I have been conditioned to feel connected to the idea of America, and that I should support that idea. Civic virtue and duty are a part of the package, and those concepts strengthen the shared social bond I have with other people who think similarly. That doesn't mean I'm blindly loyal to government authority, or that I don't see the atrocities committed by the US government over the years. It means that I should support that conditioned concept of what my country should be. I should object and protest corruption, and it will always be there, in an attempt to bring my country as close as possible to what I think is right. I understand that my environment shaped the way I feel about about my country and my concept of patriotism. I accept that. That being said, I don't object to change if I see a better way.
Drunkenshoe, you claim that patriotism is the same as tribalism. I disagree. Patriotism is a product of nationalism, a loyalty to a nation state. Nation states stomped out most tribal societies in the name of civilization. To be perfectly honest, I think old school tribalism might be preferable, but the nation state is what we have to work with and we can't really go back.
My homecountry has a rich, diverse, and very long history dating all the way back to before the Roman Empire. As a culture, it has survived despite being the victim of countless wars of opression, having territories under foreign occupation at any given point in time through history. It has survived being the only latin language surrounded, and conquered, by slavic languages. It has maintained it's Orthodox religious identity despite the better efforts of communism and fascism in recent times, and the best effors of the Ottoman Empire, etc etc. We have countless martyrs that were tortured and killed simply because they would not completely renounce their cultural identity.
Not once did we set military foot in foreign land, save for WW2 when we crossed into Russian territory as an effort to get our own lands back.
And I am supposed to chuck this all away and NOT self-identify as a patriot in the sense that I am proud of my heritage, the accomplishments of my people, proud of my country, with all its faults, for fear that I may be associated with self-labeled "patriot" fuckwits such as Rush Limbaugh and every person out there that thinks it's a benevolent idea to force democracy around the world?
Quote from: drunkenshoe on May 28, 2014, 09:31:06 AM
Patriotism is a political ideology and it has nothing to do with: "A true patriot wants to see his country become a better, fairer, juster, more civilized place." This is against that ideology. A true patriot is the person who is loyal to his country and gives it support to it UNDER ANY circumstances whatsoever, whatever its domestic and international policy is. Patriotism demands absolute loyalty. Defining patriotism in a sensible, likable manner with desired positive traits, that a person sees it 'should be' in hypermodern area doesn't change the ideology or definition of it. It doesn't work that way. Because it's religious in nature; it is in fact a religion.
You are asking us to chuck away any and all intricacies and complexities and nuances of the definition of patriot in favor of your personal, rigid view of what patriotism is. I am sorry, but unless I have some compelling citations and sources that support that patriotism is exactly what I just cited you saying, and nothing else, I'm having a particularly tough time accepting that view.
Don't allow yourself and your views to be warped by evildoers. If anything, we should fight against the tide.
If I am NOT a patriot by what I described, then what am I?
I'm pretty sure whatever definition I may fit, we can find negative aspects of it. Should I then remove myself from that as well?
Quote from: drunkenshoe on May 28, 2014, 03:18:17 PM
Every human birth is random. You didn't choose to be born into some nation or work for it.
You are absolutely right, and for that reason I don't claim and never did claim any credit to myself as a derivative from what others did. All I am saying is that the sense of patriotism stems from the rich history, which also motivates me to do whatever I think is right to make it a better place. Sure, patriotism can be used as a political tool to garner all sorts of support from naive citizens, but that is not its only applicability, nor its only meaning. Any feeling or emotion or point of view can be manipulated for political gain. It is folly to confuse it with the political game itself.
If we are to discard patriotism, what are we going to replace it with? Or should we entirely rid ourselves of any passionate adherence to our own culture?
^^Patriotism should be thrown out in it's entirety. It is the same BS tribalism that's behind every religion. Patriotism is blind love for your country. Supporting it above all others. Placing it first regardless of facts. Not to mention that country is relatively poorly defined. Is it about the non-conscious nature within a set of selected borders, the people or the government - either way it makes no sense. Why would you by necessity support any of these things? Land is just land, people are flawed and diverse and the varying governments that will get in charge even more so.
I can't see why we'd have a need to replace patriotism with anything. If one needs to fill the "void", how about humanism and rationality? And no, patriotism is about your country, not your culture, which can extend beyond your borders, or you may be part of a culture the majority of your "country" does not share.
And when we start talking about adherence to our own culture something is seriously wrong. One should NEVER be adherent to any concepts just because you grew up with them. That's the way one makes horrible decisions. Always be skeptical, question everything, investigate the effects of what you are adhering to, see if there are better ways, etc. Never follow anything blindly. This has nothing to do with stopping you from enjoying and participating in your culture. Be whoever you want to be. Follow the rituals you want to follow. But don't throw away your tools of skepticism, rational thinking and rational morality simply because of adherence to your traditional way of life.
As I said in an earlier, caring about your society, working for improvements and defending good ideas from harmful ones, are wonderful things to do - but don't start associating this with patriotism. Said society can also mean everything from your school/workplace, tiny town, county, state, country, continent, world, etc. Make the world a little better by focusing on what you can actually do.
Could you please provide sources that support your specific descriptors of patriotism, in an exclusive manner? I am referring to "blind love for country", support it above all others, placing it first regardless of facts?
A random sample of "define patriotism" yields results like "devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty", and Webster simply describes it a love for country.
It has become a politically charged term and has a lot of negative baggage needlessly assigned to it simply because politicians have and continue to abuse the term. And I continue not giving a crap what others interpret it as being and unfairly assigning baggage to other self-identified patriots. Patriotism is neither excuse nor mechanism to isolate one in their own country of origin. I wouldn't have emigrated if that were the case. There is an entire spectrum of "patriots", just like there is an entire spectrum of atheists. At its core, patriotism is love for country. What people do with that, how they interpret it, how they apply it, doesn't change the core.
We are in disagreement only over the interpretation of the term. What has happened thus far in this thread is various announcements of individual perspectives over what the term means. I've only tried to point out those perspectives are neither exclusive nor all-inclusive.
I'm not out there looking for a label to assignm myself, but I really do love my country of origin, it's people, landscape, culture, pretty much everything about it I can think of. I am first in line to critique it harshly for its shortcomings, both of the citizens and especially of the highly corrupt government, its social inequality, etc etc. By no means do I regard it through rose-colored glasses. After all, it is the present economic and social turmoil that is keeping me away from it!
So what descriptor would be suitable for me?
In retrospect, I am starting to realize this thread came about the display of patriotism on Memorial Day. I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment of the op. Overall, as an immigrant, I've always found this display and public discourse of patriotism excessive to an extreme, here in the US. Every time I see a truck drive past me with a giant US flag I just roll my eyes.
It's usually over the top having little to nothing to do with love of country, but some agenda and misinterpretation of history and "the constitution". Shol, next time you get a chance ask some dipshit in Texas what the first article of the Constitution says and I bet he or she says "freedom of speech".
APA, I'd rather not confirm my fears :)
The term "patriotism" stirs different emotions for different people.
Personally for me, when I hear the term, I immediately think of one of my grandfathers, who at the tender age of 19 was a dive bomber pilot in WW2. In his own words, he felt the call "for fellow man and country". He flew JU-88As, which are a 5-man crew plane. Everyone wanted to fly with him because he always returned from missions and was a damned good pilot.
When I hear the term patriotism I think of bravery in the face of the enemy at the gates. That is because I grew up in a society that through history always got the short end of the stick and was under constant threat of conquer.
I just wanted to bring a different perspective to this discussion.
We should criticize the action of people using the term as pretense, not the term itself.
I kinda think of Woody Guthrie songs..
Sadly, the reference is lost on me although I looked up the name. It is one of those American cultural things I have no familiarity of :)
He wrote This Land Is Your Land. It's a song most kids my age learned in grade school.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxiMrvDbq3s
The late 50's into the 60's when most americans believed they still owned the country and when Republicans and democrats worked together to ensure that the american people would never have any power.
Except Woody released This Land is Your Land in 1940. Other than the 20 year differential....
Quote from: Shol'va on May 28, 2014, 06:36:26 PM
So what descriptor would be suitable for me?
I think patriot fits the bill just fine.
I'm guessing your alternative is cosmopolitanism. Citizens of the world, so to speak. Not only is it that an impossible pipe dream, I think most would find it undesirable. Language, culture, politics, religion, etc., are just too diverse for that to happen. People need to share a common identity with others, and I think with some exclusivity, to feel they belong. And to be perfectly honest, I think even some nation states are too diverse to effectively pull off an acceptable shared identity.
For example, I've been in your neck of the woods before, drunkenshoe, and don't think I would ever feel I belong there. I met quite a few people who I befriended, and enjoyed visiting Adana as well as several of the coastal towns, but the culture there is so different, it could never be home. I also spent several months along the border helping the Kurds and grew very close with them, but they would never fully accept me and I would never feel completely at home. Culture, language, and core beliefs would never allow it.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on May 29, 2014, 05:32:05 AM
This is exactly like the old apologist's argument of how religion actually good in its core; that how it is intended to unite, to make things better for what we love, invoke that loooove and cherish, but unfortunately abused by some evil people and in fact we can reach to this good core if we manage to hold on to the good parts. And everyone actually believes anyway, because no one could have lived like that. Religion is good, people are baaaad.
Nope, not at all. The only point is that patriotism in and of itself is love of country. Some people do good things, some people do bad things, both in the name if it. Focusing solely on the bad and stating patriotism is exclusively bad is simply a bias.
To take you up on your perspective of American imperialism, the countries that are being victimised and ransacked, invaded etc etc however you want to look at it, are putting up resistance and a fight out of, what sentiment exactly? :) I'm going to venture a guess and say the same sentiment my country was operating under when the great Ottoman empire kept coming at the gates: patriotism.
When you are saying patriotism is tribalism, etc etc, in the same breath you are condemning the very sentiment that drives people to protect their homes, their people and their culture, from anihilation.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on May 28, 2014, 09:14:21 PM
Except Woody released This Land is Your Land in 1940. Other than the 20 year differential....
that's like cock-blockin man.....and sides...many a them damn hippies was a singing that sign and smoking those left handed rolled reefers....damn midnight madness man...
(http://endlessorigami.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/2011-12-27-evolution.png)
Quote from: aitm on May 29, 2014, 03:56:10 PM
that's like cock-blockin man.....and sides...many a them damn hippies was a singing that sign and smoking those left handed rolled reefers....damn midnight madness man...
You're right. Woody Guthrie was really Joseph Stalin in disguise and killed millions.
I consider myself as a patriot because I love my country, but I'm not going to defend my country by invading another country based on lies, or again, if I'm forced to do it. But if this country is invaded and attacked I would defend it. I'm sure as hell not going to join up in a war because politicians and their supporters want me to for their self interests. This is the problem with words, and why everything gets so screwed up---how are they to be interpreted as to meaning? This is the very bases of religious nonsense, and philosophical nonsense. This is the reason the language of science is mathematics: it is mostly free of ambiguities and is a universal language. We practice tribalism because of our past and differences, and words just make everything worse. Examples: If there is a war between straight people and gays---what side will you be on. If there was a war between blacks and whites---what side would you be on? If there was a war between outer space aliens---what side would you be on. Who starts the wars---the leaders or politicians, with us fighting for their self interests.
@Solitary - Reminds me of what George Orwell wrote -
QuoteNationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By "patriotism" I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseperable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality.
I quoted what George Orwell wrote in the 1940s, he's got some pretty good stuff you might want to check out. I would also encourage you to expand your understanding on the various views people have on patriotism. The Stanford website has a pretty good article on it - http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/patriotism/ (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/patriotism/)
Those are actually pretty liberal and well respected sources. Stanford is a left of center ivy league school in California and their Encyclopedia of Philosophy is highly regarded. George Orwell was a huge advocate of social justice and a democratic socialist. He was a very inspirational author, as you may know. Please take a look and try to be open minded.
Also, what is your alternative? How do you think people should interact with each other on a global scale? Where should their loyalties lie, and how should they deal with bias regarding their language, culture, religion, as well as hearth and home? I'm genuinely curious.
Convince me then. Seriously, if your going to bad-mouth someone else's views, you should at least offer an alternative. Over time I was able to go from being a theist to an atheist, so I think I've demonstrated that I have an open mind, at least to some extent. I gave you my view of patriotism, and even broke it down for you, and you can't even give me a rough idea of your views on, what, cosmopolitanism?
I take it from your response that you have cosmopolitan leanings, even though you won't come out and say it. If that's the case, then promote it. I have gone against the conventional liberal views of this forum on several occasions, knowing full well I would suffer rude outbursts for doing so. The thing is, I put it out there regardless because I felt strongly about those views.
Also, please quit trying to guess my motives. It seems you've put me, and others, into some preconceived category that you've mapped out and assume I take certain positions, even if I say differently. It's difficult to have a constructive conversation when you do that.
One more thing. Have you considered that patriotism, as Orwell defines it, may not have to be rejected in order to promote moral cosmopolitanism? I think it would actually help to conditionally embrace it. Think about it.
If I label myself as "A" and provide a solid argument as to why my views do in fact line up with the definition of "A", and someone comes along and says "no, you're not an A", then I struggle to see the difference between them and a Christians that uses Romans 1 to say "I know you know God exists". It is every bit as annoying. This thread is essentially a "discussion" over interpretation of a word.
Your condescension prevents discussion, you already know it all. And you didn't even answer my question.
Cheers
I didn't read all the posts here- so if this has already been mentioned, sorry for the repetition.
Here's a re-enactment of a speech given by General Smedley Butler- "War is a Racket"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3_EXqJ8f-0
Here's more info:
http://www.rationalrevolution.net/war/major_general_smedley_butler_usm.htm
There are always going to be negative actions perpetrated under all sorts of labels.
Sure, there's always the possibility that labels can be misused.
I'm not playing stupid, I just thought it would be more productive to respond in a serious way to try to bring the conversation back into focus. Patriotism stirs different emotions for different people, depending on their own personal views and experiences. My point was simple, to point out what the agreed upon definition of patrotism is, and to point out it is not singularly negative in aim, application, or scope.
I have absolutely no objection with criticizing the way patriotism is taken to be understood by some people and then used as justification for all sorts of atrocities. The Nazis saw themselves as patriots. But to focus on that outcome as the sole possible outcome is to ignore the opposite. And I had pointed out that it is also out of similar feelings of patriotism, those that are opressed, killed, tortured and maimed, that they fight for their country and loved ones.
You're certainly welcome to bring into the discussion a different definition, but having at least gleaned into it, is more or less a variation of "devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty", or simply put, according to Webster, love one feels for country.
So my question is, those people that fought against the Nazis, The Ottoman Empire, the Roman Empire, etc etc, to protect their country, what descriptor would be fair to assign to them?
It is done for survival only if complete anihilation and massacre is the goal, not merely to annex the population, territory, under foreign rule.
Taking in consideration the definition of patriotism, and that is, love for country, by what standard and criteria would you say it is justified to dismiss those that answered the call to arms as categorically being patriots, when their survival did not in fact depend on it.
I don't only love where I live, I especially love the people, language, culture, history, etc.
While you may be talking about history from 70 years to today, I'm thinking much earlier. How about battles from 12th century where the Ottoman Empire came knocking at my ancestor's door. Patriotism was the prevalent feeling. It's evident from historical texts.
I understand your assertion that the people I mention as well as myself don't qualify as patriots. I also understand you are saying there isn't a label. What I'm asking is why and by what standard is patriotism exclusively a negative force. Where is this agreed upon?
You said loving my country has nothing to do with patriotism. Why?
By the way I wanted to clarify the patriotic feelings I'm talking about are towards my home country, Romania. I've made that clear from the very onset of this discussion.
You know, in retrospect, I think it might be better if I simply agree to disagree and simply leave it at that.