Hello friends,
Happy Easter everyone! My name is Zach and I am a sophomore at a small place called Crown College. I am a Christian, so today is a pretty special time for me--the Creator sent his son to die for me so many years ago. I have worked with an online gaming ministry, Soldiers of Christ, for some 8 years now, so I am familiar with some of the meandering currents of the internet ocean--some people are willing to have a discussion, others are not. But fortunately, I hope to have some tame but enlightening discussions here. Don't worry, having worked at SoC I know how horrible it is when someone from the "other side" comes on and trolls--that is not at all what I am here for.
If you all are interested or able, I do have some questions, but if that's not your thing a simple "hello" will suffice. :D
I am currently working on a research project for college that includes these questions. But try not to think of this as research--I won't include any of your real names, but it really would help me if you could answer these as honestly as you can. If you do not feel comfortable answering these questions in public, you can also pm me.
In summary, I would love to open up honest conversations about some of these questions! While I am directing this at non-believers, I would welcome other Christians to interact with this topic as well. Here are the questions:
-How would you describe your religious background and church involvement?
-To you, what is God like? Describe God. Or if you do not believe in God, then: what is important in life?
-What do you think is important and unimportant to God? (Feel free to skip if you do not believe in God, or you are welcome to speculate as well if you are agnostic)
-What do you think it takes to be straightened out with God? (Same as above)
-Describe what the term Jesus Christ means to you.
-From your perspective, what are the major problems of churches today?
Thank you all! I am pretty busy as of late, but I am going to try to interact with this community as much as I can.
Hi Zach, nice to meet you. Happy Easter.
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-How would you describe your religious background and church involvement?
Grew up affiliated with an Episcopal church. I was confirmed when I was 13. I did take a bible class, too.
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-To you, what is God like? Describe God. Or if you do not believe in God, then: what is important in life?
To me, God is a fabrication based on some events and/or stories that happened a very long time ago. What's important in life is being true to myself and my family. Love is everything.
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-Describe what the term Jesus Christ means to you.
The name given to the God people follow.
Edited to add: A handy expletive when I catch my pinkie toe on the corner of the coffee table.
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-From your perspective, what are the major problems of churches today?
Guilt, judgment, disrespect, proselytizing, bigotry, hypocrisy, control of people and subjugation of women in the name of Christianity. That sort of thing.
-How would you describe your religious background and church involvement?
42 years a mormon, 18 years a Christian, now an atheist
-To you, what is God like? Describe God. Or if you do not believe in God, then: what is important in life?
God isn't "like" anything because god doesn't exist. he/she/it is a supernatural concept which by definition is beyond human understanding
-What do you think is important and unimportant to God? (Feel free to skip if you do not believe in God, or you are welcome to speculate as well if you are agnostic)
Pointless question
-What do you think it takes to be straightened out with God? (Same as above)
Pointless question
-Describe what the term Jesus Christ means to you.
A fictional character created by Romans from a (possible) real person, grafted onto a lot of other previous "messiah" figures
-From your perspective, what are the major problems of churches today?
That they exist
Thank you all! I am pretty busy as of late, but I am going to try to interact with this community as much as I can.
Oh, and by the way, you might want to spend some time following some of the threads on here. Right off the bat you strike me as a really naive individual.
Hello Mermaid, nice to meet you as well. If you don't mind I have only a brief clarifying question for you:
QuoteGuilt, judgment, disrespect, proselytizing, bigotry, hypocrisy, control of people and subjugation of women in the name of Christianity. That sort of thing.
I want to start by saying that I agree. We act as judges, speak disrespectfully, pour out guilt to others, and are major hypocrites. We are broken, wretched people. But for many of us, that is why we are at church--or perhaps more accurately, why we are believers. We need a doctor and we have found one and he has asked us to join his family. We are still being worked on and many of us still have a very long way to come. I am sorry.
But my question is this: proselytizing is kind of inherent in every group, wouldn't you agree? If we really believe that what we believe is true, wouldn't we want others to believe that too? :)
EDIT: Hi, stromboli. Thank you, I will try to peruse as best I can.
Hi and no, I'm not in the least bit interested in discussing your woo bullshit. If you want to talk about anything else not related to your woo, fine. Otherwise I'd be perfectly content for you to STFU.
Gee wiz, I hope I'm not being to vague.
Care to "debate" why the tooth fairy buys kids teeth for mere pennies on the dollar and yet dentists are so expensive? It's about as realistic as your woo(ish) nonsense. At least kids get cash out of the deal.
Quote from: SB Leader on April 20, 2014, 12:15:35 PM
-To you, what is God like? Describe God.
What's a god?
Quote-From your perspective, what are the major problems of churches today?
They're full of christians.
Hey. Welcome to our forum.
Quote from: SB Leader on April 20, 2014, 12:15:35 PM-How would you describe your religious background and church involvement?
My parents and most of my family are atheist. I was taken to Sunday school when I was 5-6 because I had an interest in the subject. I was actually sad when it closed due to lack of attendance. Only 3 kids or something were there. (We are an atheist country). Read the new testament at 7-8, and dismissed it. Always loved the subject of religion however. My grandmother and her husband (who I consider my grandfather), lovely people, are Jehova's Witness. I went to some meetings with them whenever they would babysit me. Been inside a regular church 2-3 times maybe.
Quote-To you, what is God like? Describe God. Or if you do not believe in God, then: what is important in life?
There are so many god-concepts. Monotheism, Polytheism, Deism, Patheism, etc. As you asked for a specific god I suppose you are referring to a monotheistic god, in which case the official definition is "A mind/being that created the world and interact with it" - with multiple other different attributes given to the various monotheistic gods that people believe in. Often the definition will vary from muslim to muslim, christian to christian.
As to what is important in life: Happiness, co-existence/humanitarianism, strong morals based on logic and never falling into the claws of faith. I think we should do what we can to make the lives of the people around us better, and also enjoy the life we have to the fullest without hurting anyone else. Life is incredibly meaningful as it's the only life we will get, and we must do the most of it, and help those around us be able to do the same.
Quote-What do you think is important and unimportant to God? (Feel free to skip if you do not believe in God, or you are welcome to speculate as well if you are agnostic)
I do not believe in a god, but I am agnostic, so if one or more gods existed, and it is actually a good god (unlike the horrible monster your bible presents "him" to be, the monster the qur'an presents him to be, etc.) that could actually be respected, it would have to be a god that valued goodness rather than belief, and obviously not one so insane that it sentenced people to infinite torture/punishment for finite crimes. :D
Quote-What do you think it takes to be straightened out with God? (Same as above)
As I said, I do not believe in any god, so I don't believe there's any god to straighten anything out with, but:
If a monotheistic god existed, and actually expected or wanted us to care about it, said god would have a lot to answer for in regard to how it made the world and how unfair it is. I have a hard time seeing a god that's not either oblivious to our existence or thinks of us as we do ants and pays us no mind could be morally defensible given birth-defects, etc. It would have a lot of apologizing to do, or reveal some actual logical and morally valid reason for this "experiment".
Quote-Describe what the term Jesus Christ means to you.
In regard to the character in the bible he is the one that presents the concept of hell, which is one of the most disgusting and awful ideas ever presented, and has caused so much torment though hundreds of almost two thousand years. If Jesus existed he was likely either a con-man, a genuinely believing person who was wrong/insane or a leader who never claimed to be god, but were attributed this later. We really can't tell. What we do know is that the story only got more complex with time. There are people claiming to be god with legions of followers today, many of which have been attributed miracles - and that's today. Who knows what the origins of Jesus was.
Quote-From your perspective, what are the major problems of churches today?
Looking away from child-rape, spreading disinformation about AIDS, burning "witches" (yes, they still do that in Africa, usually children), etc. I.e. the most extreme and obviously abhorrent things you'd likely not agree with, churches spread falsehoods and worse, makes people hold positions based on faith, the most dishonest thing one could ever do. Faith is not good. It's not a tool to find right answers. It breeds gullibility. The falsehoods also creates massive ignorance. And of course they follow the bible - a very disgusting book with concepts such as hell, and commandments about killing gays and disobedient children - though luckily they have removed the child thing entire, and only a portion of christians view homosexuality as wrong these days. They still follow the book however, and it's the source of so many disgusting, clearly evil, morals. They also still preach the concept of hell, which has traumatized and hurt so many people.
QuoteThank you all! I am pretty busy as of late, but I am going to try to interact with this community as much as I can.
Good to know. :)
Now that I have answered your questions I'd like to end with what I consider an obligatory, but most likely fruitless act, of trying to save you from the falsehoods you have been thought:
Nothing implies your god ever died for you, or that he even exists. In fact we know for certain that the christian god cannot exist as depicted as Christianity is based on Judaism and the Jews were polytheistic up until around 500 years B.C. At that point your god, Yahweh (the Jewish war god), was the son of El, the creator god. These gods were later merged. Some stories in your old testament still include other gods as the stories were not entirely rewritten - the mentions of them being related to Yahweh/El and older context was simply removed. It's also worth noting that there was no Adam and Eve (given evolution being a fact - the catholic stance - they accept evolution - is an impossibility) therefor there was no fall of man and Jesus had no reason to die for your sins in the first place. I am not dismissing the possibility of A god, but your god cannot exist.
Quote from: SB Leader on April 20, 2014, 12:32:21 PMBut my question is this: proselytizing is kind of inherent in every group, wouldn't you agree?
By that logic, I belong to the Church of Shut the Fuck Up.
Quote from: SB Leader on April 20, 2014, 12:32:21 PM
Hello Mermaid, nice to meet you as well. If you don't mind I have only a brief clarifying question for you:
I want to start by saying that I agree. We act as judges, speak disrespectfully, pour out guilt to others, and are major hypocrites. We are broken, wretched people. But for many of us, that is why we are at church--or perhaps more accurately, why we are believers. We need a doctor and we have found one and he has asked us to join his family. We are still being worked on and many of us still have a very long way to come. I am sorry.
Boy, then you have found a bad doctor! It's your church that specifically creates this behavior. Sure, they will be found to varying extents regardless, but your bible and the teachings of Christianity is encouraging this behavior. It promotes innocent/harmless behaviors as sinful. It threatens you with hell. It tells you who goes to hell. Huge portions of what any christian condemns will be traced directly to his or her religion.
QuoteBut my question is this: proselytizing is kind of inherent in every group, wouldn't you agree? If we really believe that what we believe is true, wouldn't we want others to believe that too? :)
There's a big difference between arguing for your views, promoting your views, showing why it's true or likely true, etc. - and what is commonly understood as proselytizing, i.e. preaching without being willing to debate or demonstrate any claims. Any group can preach, shame, etc. but it should be disencouraged.
QuoteWe are broken, wretched people.
What a horrible attitude.
Christians, more than any other religion have created a mythology of sin to which they have the only (very lucrative) cure for.
Tell me, if christianity is so morally good, why is that we have had to defang christianity and remove it from a position of political authority in order to make any moral progress in society?
Quotetoday is a pretty special time for me--the Creator sent his son to die for me
because EVERBODY knows that going from a goat herder to a GOD is a sacrifice
cough cough---bullshit--cough cough
Thank you for the answers. I will address a few, if you do not mind. I hope I don't seem argumentative, but your posts seem in-depth enough to warrant an acknowledgement.
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If a monotheistic god existed, and actually expected or wanted us to care about it, said god would have a lot to answer for in regard to how it made the world and how unfair it is. I have a hard time seeing a god that's not either oblivious to our existence or thinks of us as we do ants and pays us no mind could be morally defensible given birth-defects, etc. It would have a lot of apologizing to do, or reveal some actual logical and morally valid reason for this "experiment".
Perhaps it isn't an experiment but an allowance. If man is truly allowed to be free then all of his actions must be allowed to have their consequences--good or bad. I think part of what makes a human *human* is an ability to make choices, but I think those choices have results. Hurt exists in our world because of the wrong that man has done.
QuoteLooking away from child-rape, spreading disinformation about AIDS, burning "witches" (yes, they still do that in Africa, usually children), etc. I.e. the most extreme and obviously abhorrent things you'd likely not agree with, churches spread falsehoods and worse, makes people hold positions based on faith, the most dishonest thing one could ever do. Faith is not good. It's not a tool to find right answers. It breeds gullibility. The falsehoods also creates massive ignorance. And of course they follow the bible - a very disgusting book with concepts such as hell, and commandments about killing gays and disobedient children - though luckily they have removed the child thing entire, and only a portion of christians view homosexuality as wrong these days. They still follow the book however, and it's the source of so many disgusting, clearly evil, morals. They also still preach the concept of hell, which has traumatized and hurt so many people.
I agree that blind faith is not good. If we just choose to follow whatever we want with no vision whatsoever we are in for a wild ride. But Christians would say that faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. There is a confidence that is based in a certain revealed knowledge. We all demonstrate faith everyday. Do you believe Australia exists? Of course, you probably do. Have you ever been there? If not then what you know about that place is based on what others have reported to you. You choose whether you trust them or not (Which you probably do). So faith, when seen in that light, probably is not so dangerous. Now if we just believe in Australia and hope we will one day get to see it, we are going to be disappointed. We have to make plans, get packing, and buy tickets. Research is involved to know that where we are going is everything it claims to be. But after my research, I am confident that I will one day be in the place that has been promised.
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Nothing implies your god ever died for you, or that he even exists. In fact we know for certain that the christian god cannot exist as depicted as Christianity is based on Judaism and the Jews were polytheistic up until around 500 years B.C. At that point your god, Yahweh (the Jewish war god), was the son of El, the creator god. These gods were later merged. Some stories in your old testament still include other gods as the stories were not entirely rewritten - the mentions of them being related to Yahweh/El and older context was simply removed. It's also worth noting that there was no Adam and Eve (given evolution being a fact - the catholic stance - they accept evolution - is an impossibility) therefor there was no fall of man and Jesus had no reason to die for your sins in the first place. I am not dismissing the possibility of A god, but your god cannot exist.
I have actually never heard about Jews being polytheistic, and I would curious to read more. Do you have any resources I could examine for that?
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Boy, then you have found a bad doctor! It's your church that specifically creates this behavior. Sure, they will be found to varying extents regardless, but your bible and the teachings of Christianity is encouraging this behavior. It promotes innocent/harmless behaviors as sinful. It threatens you with hell. It tells you who goes to hell. Huge portions of what any christian condemns will be traced directly to his or her religion.
But I think we can agree that certain standards are universally recognized. Child rape is wrong, so is murder. I think these standards transcend a certain religion and are true for all humanity. There is an innate sense of right and wrong in everyone. I don't believe that to be a coincidence--Something or Someone who valued Good must have placed that on our hearts.
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There's a big difference between arguing for your views, promoting your views, showing why it's true or likely true, etc. - and what is commonly understood as proselytizing, i.e. preaching without being willing to debate or demonstrate any claims. Any group can preach, shame, etc. but it should be disencouraged.
I agree that that form of proselytizing is wrong. I apologize if that is what you have seen from Christians.
I really appreciate everyone's willingness to discuss. This has been very helpful.
EDIT:
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Tell me, if christianity is so morally good, why is that we have had to defang christianity and remove it from a position of political authority in order to make any moral progress in society?
I don't know if this is entirely true, Berati. Christianity has historically been a harbinger of peace and freedom when brought to a society. You might be interested in this article. (http://www.academia.edu/2128659/The_Missionary_Roots_of_Liberal_Democracy)
Never been religious. What the hell is a god?
Sent from Monster Island. Titty sprinkles.
QuoteChristianity has historically been a harbinger of peace and freedom when brought to a society.
Most non-Christians would tend to disagree.
Sent from Monster Island. Titty sprinkles.
Quote from: SB Leader on April 20, 2014, 12:32:21 PM
We are broken, wretched people. But for many of us, that is why we are at church--or perhaps more accurately, why we are believers. We need a doctor and we have found one and he has asked us to join his family.
That's a technique known as "grooming" that is used by pedophiles to gain a child's trust. The predator breaks down the victim's self esteem and then rebuilds it with themselves as the center of their victims sense of self worth.
I am sorry, but you have been manipulated and abused your entire life.
I hope you get better.
^^You are probably right. I should clarify my terms: The Gospel has historically been a harbinger of peace and freedom when brought to a society. Religions often bring more oppression and rules, but bringing a message bears no strings.
Quote from: the_antithesis on April 20, 2014, 01:32:46 PMBy that logic, I belong to the Church of Shut the Fuck Up.
If I were a millionaire, I would fund this enough to make this a reality. Our places of worship would be unadorned save for "silentium est aureum" stenciled above the main archway. Silent services would be held 24/7 with people allowed to come and go as they please. Our commercials would simply be dead air followed by a small logo/slogan.
Quote from: SB Leader on April 20, 2014, 02:23:29 PMThe Gospel has historically been a harbinger of peace and freedom when brought to a society.
The Greeks, Native Americans, Africans, Japanese, etc would disagree.
Quote from: aitm on April 20, 2014, 02:10:38 PM
because EVERBODY knows that going from a goat herder to a GOD is a sacrifice
cough cough---bullshit--cough cough
I was thinking, Awww, how special. I wish I could have someone killed just for me. :eek:
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 20, 2014, 02:33:18 PM
The Greeks, Native Americans, Africans, Japanese, etc would disagree.
The Jews probably object too.
Quote from: SB Leader on April 20, 2014, 02:14:01 PM
Perhaps it isn't an experiment but an allowance. If man is truly allowed to be free then all of his actions must be allowed to have their consequences--good or bad. I think part of what makes a human *human* is an ability to make choices, but I think those choices have results. Hurt exists in our world because of the wrong that man has done.
What about all the hurt by natural processes? Birth defects, diseases, natural disasters, etc. When a young child dies of a birth defect it has suffered with for 2-3 years, that's a great allowance?
Btw, we don't have free will(our consciousness is a product of our brain, and based on wiring, chemicals, etc. it creates our thoughts), but let's say we did, we still don't have unlimited free will in your worldview. We can't kill people with our minds. We can't fly by ourselves. Why couldn't a competent god have created a world were we had "free will", but people were actually protected to some degree? This was the best design he could do?
QuoteI agree that blind faith is not good. If we just choose to follow whatever we want with no vision whatsoever we are in for a wild ride. But Christians would say that faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. There is a confidence that is based in a certain revealed knowledge.
Which you cannot show or demonstrate, and is therefor valueless. Why has none of this been revealed to me? The confidence you have here is blind faith. And it is dangerous!
QuoteWe all demonstrate faith everyday. Do you believe Australia exists? Of course, you probably do. Have you ever been there? If not then what you know about that place is based on what others have reported to you. You choose whether you trust them or not (Which you probably do). So faith, when seen in that light, probably is not so dangerous.
This is NOT faith. Australia demonstrably exists within our world. I know people who live there. I have seen pictures, films, maps. If I chose so I could have studied there. Everything implies Australia to exist. Therefor we accept that Australia exists. Also, if I wanted to, I could go there, right now. Just jump on a plane. I have never heard a single person offer any reason why I should not believe Australia exists. The evidence is rather extreme.
Nothing implies your god exists, in fact we know he doesn't exist, therefor one should not believe in this god, and believing in it is blind faith. And keep in mind that the muslims feel exactly like you. As does the followers of any other monotheistic religion. They have the same evidence and experiences as you - and only one of them could possibly be right - and as all but one has to be wrong and has gotten to this point, chances are, they are all wrong.
Also, I know countries exists. I have lived in two of them, visited more. I have never known or visited a god. You do see the distinction, right? A god claim is an extraordinary claim. The existence of Australia is not.
QuoteI have actually never heard about Jews being polytheistic, and I would curious to read more. Do you have any resources I could examine for that?
Here's a simple and short examination of the traces of said polytheism/henotheism in the bible itself: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2013/02/polytheism-in-the-bible/ (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2013/02/polytheism-in-the-bible/)
If you have little time on your hand you can just read Wikipedia, though obviously that's not a tool that should be trusted completely: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Semitic_religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Semitic_religion)
You should easily be able to find books on the subject if you're really interested.
QuoteBut I think we can agree that certain standards are universally recognized. Child rape is wrong, so is murder. I think these standards transcend a certain religion and are true for all humanity.
Good, because your bible promotes both. Granted, not in the context of catholic priests, but the old testament specifically tells you to, in war, kill all the men and non-virgin women, and take the virgin women yourself. A commandment directly from your god, if we believe the book. He also commanded the deaths of children! Great guy.
QuoteThere is an innate sense of right and wrong in everyone. I don't believe that to be a coincidence--Something or Someone who valued Good must have placed that on our hearts.
We all have empathy, save sociopaths mind you. In fact all mammals as far as I'm aware have empathy. It's an evolutionary trait that benefits the reproduction of our genes. Morality itself develops from this within society and individuals.
Your claim that this innate sense of right and wrong being from your god should be apparently wrong by his own books! Furthermore all these people with "innate morals" have different morals. I'm sure many of the moral truths I feel most strongly in "my heart" are morals you'd disagree with based on your "innate" morality.
QuoteChristianity has historically been a harbinger of peace and freedom when brought to a society. You might be interested in this article. (http://www.academia.edu/2128659/The_Missionary_Roots_of_Liberal_Democracy)
My ancestor's half-brother was actually the king who brought christianity to Norway. He did so by torturing and killing everyone who said a word against it. Witch burnings continued for hundreds of years, as did killing everyone who dared speak against it.
Quote from: SB Leader on April 20, 2014, 02:23:29 PMReligions often bring more oppression and rules, but bringing a message bears no strings.
Do not lie. Christianity is completely made out of strings.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on April 20, 2014, 02:53:54 PM
The Jews probably object too.
Buttttt Hitler was doing the god's work of exterminating the Jews. He was the best catholic and he is in heaven. Capiche ?
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What about all the hurt by natural processes? Birth defects, diseases, natural disasters, etc. When a young child dies of a birth defect it has suffered with for 2-3 years, that's a great allowance?
Btw, we don't have free will(our consciousness is a product of our brain, and based on wiring, chemicals, etc. it creates our thoughts), but let's say we did, we still don't have unlimited free will in your worldview. We can't kill people with our minds. We can't fly by ourselves. Why couldn't a competent god have created a world were we had "free will", but people were actually protected to some degree? This was the best design he could do?
I would say that natural evil is still a result of man's wrongdoing. Man, being God's image bearers, was over all creation. When man sinned he separated his connection with the creator and creation, connected with man, fell along with him. The ground became filled with thorns, pain became part of our lives and natural disasters became part of our world. That is an attempt at an answer, but it is a difficult question to be sure. I apologize if I presupposed too much in my answer.
I would say a "protected" free will is not a free will at all. If we are conditioned to choose what the Creator wants us, then we become robots. God does not want machines, he wants humans and I would say that a fundamental part of our humanity is our free will. One does not give three sides to a triangle, one cannot give free will to a human. The alternative to free will is not being a human but an animal or machine. But I feel like this is a bit outside the topic, so I will stop there.
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This is NOT faith. Australia demonstrably exists within our world. I know people who live there. I have seen pictures, films, maps. If I chose so I could have studied there. Everything implies Australia to exist. Therefor we accept that Australia exists. Also, if I wanted to, I could go there, right now. Just jump on a plane. I have never heard a single person offer any reason why I should not believe Australia exists. The evidence is rather extreme.
Nothing implies your god exists, in fact we know he doesn't exist, therefor one should not believe in this god, and believing in it is blind faith. And keep in mind that the muslims feel exactly like you. As does the followers of any other monotheistic religion. They have the same evidence and experiences as you - and only one of them could possibly be right - and as all but one has to be wrong and has gotten to this point, chances are, they are all wrong.
Also, I know countries exists. I have lived in two of them, visited more. I have never known or visited a god. You do see the distinction, right? A god claim is an extraordinary claim. The existence of Australia is not.
But just because you have not known or visited a god does not mean that one does not exist. Others have known and experienced God, they have talked with Him and He has talked to them. And they have written books about him--or I should say a Book. :) I had it on good authority that God existed and when I put my faith in Him, I knew for certain that He existed. When you have experienced His presence and seen His work you cannot help but believe! I guess this is difficult to describe--I am arguing from experience which I suppose is pretty subjective. But I have found the most reasonable thing to do is to believe in God and from there I have seen all the proof I could need.
Thank you for the resources, I plan to check all of those out.
QuoteI have found the most reasonable thing to do is to believe in God and from there I have seen all the proof I could need.
the secret to a closed mind....is a closed mind.
No, not at all. But I do believe that we should have an open mind, not to let ideas pour in, but to search for truth. Perhaps an open mouth can be described like an open mouth--it is looking for something substantive to eat. :)
Quote from: SB Leader on April 20, 2014, 12:32:21 PM
But my question is this: proselytizing is kind of inherent in every group, wouldn't you agree? If we really believe that what we believe is true, wouldn't we want others to believe that too? :)
Well, kind of. There are plenty of atheists who try to convince others to see their way of seeing things. But that is definitely not true for me. I have no desire to convert anyone. I just want to be left alone. I think proselytizing, no matter what side of the fence you sit on, is disrespectful.
Thank you for answering, Mermaid. You are being consistent and I appreciate that.
Welcome to the forum ! I'll answer to all your question.
-How would you describe your religious background and church involvement?
I'm from a family of cafetaria catholic in France. My church involvement was something of rare because I was looking for the right christian denomination.
More information here : http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=2504.0 (http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=2504.0)
-To you, what is God like? Describe God. Or if you do not believe in God, then: what is important in life?
What's important in life. Being alive because many people can't be born for many reasons.
Fictive Example n°1 :
April/21/2014 :
John Luke Smith is an American from NYC. He must take an airplane for Miami to join an American called Matthew Mark Powers (a patron of his company) who will buy something of important. (A rare wine).
Mrs.Smith don't take this airplane.
The consequences are the next : He will never meet Janet Mary Pusher in the plane (this british woman will be his future wife). Therefore Paul will never born.
Mrs.Smith take this airplane.
The consequences are the next : He meet Missus Pusher. The wedding take place in 2016 and their son Paul will born in 2017.
Fictive Example n°2 :
April/21/1814 :
Eugénie Séraphine Dupont is a French woman who lived in the XIXth century in Paris and she was pregnant of two month when Jean (his husband) stabbed she with a knife in April 1814.
The consequences are the next : Theirs daughter will never born because her mother is died.
-What do you think is important and unimportant to God? (Feel free to skip if you do not believe in God, or you are welcome to speculate as well if you are agnostic)
I don't understand the question.
-What do you think it takes to be straightened out with God? (Same as above)
Same as above.
-Describe what the term Jesus Christ means to you.
See the Greek etymology in a dictionnary to know what that means for me.
If you want to know who is Jesus for me , this is not the right question.
-From your perspective, what are the major problems of churches to ?
1.I would like to know what make that the majority of churches refuse to admit the reality of evolution theory.
The catholic church (the church of pope Francis) admit evolution theory with a hypocritical manner called
theistic evolution but it admit it better than the majority of churches.
2.I would like to know what make that the majority of churches refuse to admit that some biblical events like exodud did never happened.
Some moderate Christians admit the reality about exodus.
A.Do you know this documentary with a title like "The Bible unearthed" produced by "Thierry Ragobert" ?
B.Do you know this book called "The Bible unearthed" wrote by "Israel Finkelstein" and "Neil Asher Silberman" ?
C.Do you know this documentary named "The Bible's Buried Secrets" by "Gary Glassman" ?
3.What make that in the majority of churches , we can find that the majority of worshipers did never read the whole bible of theirs biblical canon ?
Quotebut to search for truth
I think you're doing it wrong, the idea is to search for the truth, not accept what your parents and pastor told you to believe. This is the crucial difference. You really should wonder where all the previous gods came from and where all the subsequent gods came from and ask yourself why did man invent all these gods if there really was only one true one eh?
viocjit, thank you for your answers.
aitm, did I say I accepted what my parents and pastor told me to believe? I have questioned and tested and doubted so much. Believe me when I say that I have wrestled and fought, but that time and again I have found the Truth to be in the God of the Bible.
As to your second point, I think man invented gods because we seek idols to fulfill our desires. There is an innate longing in humans and we will try to fill it with countless items. We search for happiness in this world: perhaps in power or money. But time and again men have found those to be insufficient...I believe the reason we have a longing which cannot be fulfilled in this world is because we are not made for this world but for another. :)
A list of Christian accomplishments is roman times:
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/darkness.html
Another list of christian accomplishments:
http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm
Evangelizing hate in Uganda and elsewhere.
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/commentary/la-oe-kaoma-uganda-gays-american-ministers-20140323,0,2345261.story#axzz2zUHEQvOh
Christianity is a religion peace. so is Islam. just ask them.
We supposedly support the Jews in their conflict in the holy land, but in fact more Jews by far have been slaughtered by Christians than by any other group. Oh, and btw- Hitler was a Catholic.
Quote from: SB Leader on April 20, 2014, 12:15:35 PM
If you all are interested or able, I do have some questions, but if that's not your thing a simple "hello" will suffice. :D
I am currently working on a research project for college that includes these questions. But try not to think of this as research--I won't include any of your real names, but it really would help me if you could answer these as honestly as you can. If you do not feel comfortable answering these questions in public, you can also pm me.
In summary, I would love to open up honest conversations about some of these questions! While I am directing this at non-believers, I would welcome other Christians to interact with this topic as well. Here are the questions:
Ok, I'm feeling generous.
Quote from: SB Leader on April 20, 2014, 12:15:35 PM
-How would you describe your religious background and church involvement?
None/none.
Quote from: SB Leader on April 20, 2014, 12:15:35 PM
-To you, what is God like? Describe God. Or if you do not believe in God, then: what is important in life?
There's lots of stuff that can be important.
Quote from: SB Leader on April 20, 2014, 12:15:35 PM
-What do you think is important and unimportant to God? (Feel free to skip if you do not believe in God, or you are welcome to speculate as well if you are agnostic)
I think beetles must be really important to him. Dinosaurs? Not so much.
Quote from: SB Leader on April 20, 2014, 12:15:35 PM
-What do you think it takes to be straightened out with God? (Same as above)
I don't think that is possible.
Quote from: SB Leader on April 20, 2014, 12:15:35 PM
-Describe what the term Jesus Christ means to you.
Dead guy.
Quote from: SB Leader on April 20, 2014, 12:15:35 PM
-From your perspective, what are the major problems of churches today?
They all seem a bit money obsessed.
Quote from: SB Leader on April 20, 2014, 12:32:21 PM
But my question is this: proselytizing is kind of inherent in every group, wouldn't you agree?
I would strongly disagree about that!
Quote from: SB Leader on April 20, 2014, 12:32:21 PM
If we really believe that what we believe is true, wouldn't we want others to believe that too? :)
If you really believed what you claim to believe, you would act as if it were true.
Quote from: SB Leader on April 20, 2014, 12:15:35 PM
-How would you describe your religious background and church involvement?
-To you, what is God like? Describe God. Or if you do not believe in God, then: what is important in life?
-What do you think is important and unimportant to God? (Feel free to skip if you do not believe in God, or you are welcome to speculate as well if you are agnostic)
-What do you think it takes to be straightened out with God? (Same as above)
-Describe what the term Jesus Christ means to you.
-From your perspective, what are the major problems of churches today?
Thank you all! I am pretty busy as of late, but I am going to try to interact with this community as much as I can.
Hello Zach, happy Easter to you too.
- I was brought up in a semi-religious environment. I live in Belgium, which is seen as a 'Catholic Country', though let me tell you, most people here don't take it too seriously. The believe in a vague 'something' rather than an actual defined and personal God. At least that's my experience with the average person from around here. My grandparents and great-aunts and -uncles were religious, though my parents aren't. But to appease my grandparents they had me baptized and take communian and 'religous' class in elementary rather than 'ethics'. When I was a kid I believed in the Christian God. I was very impressionable and didn't question much what authority figures told me. Though I'd never read the bible nor went to church (except for weddings and funerals and my communion at 12 years old), I conciderd myself a Christian. I was convinced this knowledge in Christianity was true, unquestionable, a force for good in the world and proven. I continued to be religious through puberty. Other things that I'd never been indoctrinated, like astrology or faith-healing and ghosts, seemed silly to me. And whenever someone tried to talk to me about anything like that, I told them how silly it was to believe in something so obviously false and unproven. But my own beliefs were something I didn't want to subject to that standard of proof, because I think, I was very self-centered kid in puberty and I couldn't even imagine being wrong. But after puberty, and during a time that you learn a lot more about the world (example biology in the middle-to-later-years of high school) I started to admitt to myself that my religion could be dismissed with the same ease as astrology. That's when a long process started in which I became less and less convinced of the existance of God and more and more open to the possibility of a world without one. After I tried to read the Bible, I became calling myself an agnostic around the age of 18. I had to put the book away after the third of fourth book, and had no longer any trouble with calling myself agnostic. Throughout the years (I'm 22 now) I've grown less and less convinced of the positive influence of religion to the point that I'm a bit anti-theïstic; as in against religion itself. I now go by the lable atheïst though, agnostic atheïst if you use Dawkins' scale.
- I'm not religious. So God (in the personal deity sense) is nothing to me but an unfalsifiable hypothesis, and an unlikely one at that. What is important to me are my family and friends and girlfriend foremost. But also my greater community and society itself. Without trying to sound cheesy or chauvinistic I would say I'm invested in the path humankind has taken and will take. Humanity and it's potential is very important to me. (And beer, naturally.)
- Hypothesing there is an allmighty, allknowing and allpowerfull deity: If something was important to God, I do not think I could know. He has, for as far as the evidence show, not revealed his will or commands to anyone ever, on this planet. For as far as I know, he would not be concerned with life on this planet. And if his mind greater than any of ours, as many theïsts have claimed, I would not know and neither would they. If there were a God with an infinite mind, a finite mind (no matter if it were theïstic or non-theïstic) could not know how the infinite mind worked nor what it wanted. It would be an act of outreagous self-importance to claim to know the mind of God.
- I have no idea what you mean by this question.
- Jesus Christ is a Mythological figure, probably based on a real person in the past. (See Hitchen's arguments for the probability of the existance of Jesus Christ.) But due to the lack of sources outside of the Bible this can not be ultimately confirmed nor does it imply he was a well-known and important figure. He most certainly didn't have supernatural powers and was not the son of God, such claims would require proof that does not exist. Or at least has not been shown to exist. All in all, Jesus Christ is not of much importance to me.
- Very wide selection you use there. Only Christian churches, or other religions too? All in all they share a few problems: they instruct people not to think critically and accept dogma and they control peoples lives in destructive ways (though the matter of destructivity fall in a scale with some more dangerous than others).
Quote from: SB Leader on April 20, 2014, 11:00:44 PM
I have found the Truth to be in the God of the Bible.
Then again. You're doing it wrong. There is no truth in the babble.
QuoteI think man invented gods because we seek idols to fulfill our desires.
But you are unable to connect the dots eh? Yeah, your doing that searchy thing wrong.
QuoteBut time and again men have found those to be insufficient
an opinion by someone who has neither power or money
QuoteI believe the reason we have a longing which cannot be fulfilled in this world is because we are not made for this world but for another.
which explains why you're not genuine in your search for the truth. You were successfully indoctrinated by your parents and friends and pastors and are no simply too embarrassed to admit all this lost time and devotion is for the same made up gods that the rest of humanity invented. There is not one bit of difference in your fantasy god and theirs.
I
Quotedon't know if this is entirely true, Berati. Christianity has historically been a harbinger of peace and freedom when brought to a society.
This is incorrect. Christianity has murdered and tortured it's way through history. The constant use of inquisitions and wars in the name of Jebus. The repression of knowledge, the subjugation of women, the use of the bible as a validation of slavery etc... will attest to that. Christians are quick to point out that they are much better now (unless your a choirboy or an unwed mother in Ireland) but that is only because godless heathens removed them from a position of power.
Once again, why is it that we have had to defang christianity and remove it from a position of political authority in order to make any moral progress in society? If the myths you take as true were actually true why wasn't the world better off under your sway instead of under that of secular democracies?
The answer is obvious.
The question is, do you have the intellectual honesty to admit it to yourself or is the allure of the myth to strong for you? I'll bet you selfishly stay with the myth because it makes you feel good no matter what it does or has done to anyone else.
You seem like a nice guy so sorry to have to be so blunt, but the world needs to move away from these ancient paternal myths and adopt a more adult outlook.
QuoteI think man invented gods because we seek idols to fulfill our desires.
The problem appears to be that you refuse to apply this to yourself.
Quote from: SB Leader on April 20, 2014, 07:29:54 PM
But just because you have not known or visited a god does not mean that one does not exist.
Again, what's a god?
QuoteOthers have known and experienced God, they have talked with Him and He has talked to them. And they have written books about him--or I should say a Book. :)
1) Unnecessary capitalization is childish, or should I say Childish
2) That is just hearsay. It's not evidence.
I fucked your dad. I fucked so hard in his puckery little asshole he bled and then begged for more. Others had seen me do this. One even wrote a book.
Do you believe me? By your logic, you must or at least entertain the possibility.
QuoteI had it on good authority that God existed and when I put my faith in Him,
No you don't. Your faith is in yourself. You have decided that you believe this and because it is a thought that has entered your head, it cannot possibly be wrong. Faith is an act of pride.
You have what is called an inside the box viewpoint. Everything you see is based on a worldview that is colored and shaped by a Christian mindset.
The only way you can truly judge the truth is to see it from as objective a viewpoint as possible. You are indoctrinated on one hand and warned of the dangers of stepping outside your faith on the other. The only difference between a cult and a religion is a matter of how society accepts it. Christianity was a cult until it became a state religion. Mormonism was a cult until they became wide spread and politically powerful enough to be accepted as mainstream.
Until you step outside that box and truly look at things objectively, you really can't weigh the evidence impartially.
Quote from: SB Leader on April 20, 2014, 07:29:54 PM
I would say that natural evil is still a result of man's wrongdoing. Man, being God's image bearers, was over all creation. When man sinned he separated his connection with the creator and creation, connected with man, fell along with him. The ground became filled with thorns, pain became part of our lives and natural disasters became part of our world. That is an attempt at an answer, but it is a difficult question to be sure. I apologize if I presupposed too much in my answer.
And again, if true, it shows that your god is evil. He is judging and torturing little babies because something their ancestors did. That's really absurd, and frankly asinine.
QuoteI would say a "protected" free will is not a free will at all. If we are conditioned to choose what the Creator wants us, then we become robots. God does not want machines, he wants humans and I would say that a fundamental part of our humanity is our free will. One does not give three sides to a triangle, one cannot give free will to a human. The alternative to free will is not being a human but an animal or machine. But I feel like this is a bit outside the topic, so I will stop there.
But like I said, even if we had free will at this point, we still can't kill people with our minds or teleport. There are many things humans cannot do. Why not limit further. Why not create a better design that's not so horrible and useless? If it's a test for example, how can a baby that dies of a swollen head be judged?
And while we are on free will, why not come down here and show himself to be true? Then we would actually have a choice. Currently all religions seem equally invalid, and to the believers they all seem valid. Why not set the record straight? That wouldn't remove free will (if it existed). I for one could never have followed your god, at least not honestly, because I know "in my heart" that the character described in the bible is a disgusting monster with horrible moral, and is inferior to me in every way aside from muscles. Like the mob boss he could probably have tortured me till the point I cracked, but in my mind I would never respect or consider him good.
QuoteBut just because you have not known or visited a god does not mean that one does not exist.
I have already stated that I'm an agnostic and am open to the existence of gods. (Save yours and many other specific gods we know for a fact aren't real)
My point was to illustrate the distinction between a demonstrated fact that does not need to be taken on faith, i.e. Australia, and the fact that I have experiences countries, etc. while never having experienced a god. A god has never been demonstrated to exist. Nothing implies any gods exist. We cannot study them in a scientific manner. I was trying to illustrate why one can be accepted as fact and how one is yet to even be implied as a plausibility.
QuoteOthers have known and experienced God, they have talked with Him and He has talked to them. And they have written books about him--or I should say a Book. :) I had it on good authority that God existed and when I put my faith in Him, I knew for certain that He existed. When you have experienced His presence and seen His work you cannot help but believe! I guess this is difficult to describe--I am arguing from experience which I suppose is pretty subjective. But I have found the most reasonable thing to do is to believe in God and from there I have seen all the proof I could need.
A muslim would say the same. A jew would say the same. A hindu would say the same. There are legions of books. Some have felt the presence of Odin. They have all had the experiences you have had. Don't you see that? And don't you see how the existence of all these other religions that claims exactly the same as yours invalidates your experience as evidence? If you had been born to a family of a different faith, you'd likely have had the same experiences and credited them to their god(s).
The concept of sin is a religious one
Quote: "an offense against religious or moral law" the "moral" being defined by the religion.
Read the 10 commandments. There is no commandment against rape or slavery. Because by Abrahamic law, slavery was allowed and rape was a property crime and dismissable by actions of the perpetrator. Ask a rape victim if they thought it was a property crime.
The Codex Hammurabi is dated at about 1770 B.C.E.. The 10 Commandments about 1400 B.C.E.. They are very similar. Since the Babylonians were easily the big influence of that period, it is not a stretch to guess that some ideas were borrowed.
There is also a massive debate about when Jews became monotheistic. Some claim that the instillation of Abrahamic Law was the beginning, but there is a lot of evidence to the contrary. For sure the first Torah verifying monotheism doesn't exist until about 500 B.C.E., after the Babylonian Exile, so any claim that Abrahamic Law came before that is a bit clouded, and some historians believe that the Jews became monotheistic in part by way of rebellion from the Babylonians, who actually worshipped some of the same gods.
We have a debate here on morality about every 6 months. The upshot is that what we define as morality is a common understanding between members of a culture or society, and is subjective. The religious claim of an objective morality given by god is, quite frankly, bullshit. You need only read some history to see how various moral codes like allowance of homosexuality, rape, slavery, and so on are administered.
Oh, and by the way- Jesus said he didn't come to replace the laws of the Old Testament, which is why preachers today can still denounce homosexuality, even though it is not mentioned in the New Testament. By that same logic, you can be stoned to death for failing to attend church or eating a ham sandwich.
and remember the babble also prohibits those the mentally ill or emasculated, or bastard children from attending church....nobody ever keeps them out though...makes god angry and tornadoes hit churches.
Quote from: stromboli on April 21, 2014, 03:30:33 PMOh, and by the way- Jesus said he didn't come to replace the laws of the Old Testament, which is why preachers today can still denounce homosexuality, even though it is not mentioned in the New Testament. By that same logic, you can be stoned to death for failing to attend church or eating a ham sandwich.
Been a long time since I read the new testament, but I thought Paul in particular had a lot to say against it.
Wow, that's a lot to cover. Today I am compiling the results for this project, so I don't have a ton of time, but I wanted to respond to what I could.
Quote
- Very wide selection you use there. Only Christian churches, or other religions too? All in all they share a few problems: they instruct people not to think critically and accept dogma and they control peoples lives in destructive ways (though the matter of destructivity fall in a scale with some more dangerous than others).
One thing that I really appreciate about this community is the diversity of its members. You all have such different stories and many of you are even from different countries. That's really cool.
Mr. Obvious, I should have been careful when wording that question, because you are right, there are many different churches for many different religions. I was specifically referring to Christian churches, but even within those there is a vast diversity of sub-beliefs and members (Much like here!). It is very hard to generalize such a broad spectrum of people and Christians are no exceptions.
Quotean opinion by someone who has neither power or money
Again, aitm, you assume something about me which you do not know to be true. Comparatively with most of humanity, I live with great wealth and probably power too. But I can assure you my happiness is not found in those things. Furthermore, I can look at great men and women in my own life and throughout history who have achieved power or wealth or notoriety and yet died as unhappy individuals. Alexander the Great, who had conquered the entire known world, was thrown into deep depression because he didn't have enough. Joy is not in this world because this world is fleeting. :)
Quote"I think man invented gods because we seek idols to fulfill our desires."
The problem appears to be that you refuse to apply this to yourself.
Berati, that is an awkward statement in that light. What I mean by that is this: Humans have historically been drawn to the divine--the vast majority of human history has been characterized by those who seek the divine; atheism is a relatively new development and a great minority compared with the billions of humans throughout time. Now are we to just say that the majority of mankind has been ignorant, superstitious brutes or that perhaps humans have always been drawn to something beyond this world because something beyond this world exists. If we are basing this off of numbers alone, we are compelled to believe the latter. So the following of idols is a chasing after the spiritual realm, but a misunderstood chasing. Baal worship is dead, probably because of the powerlessness that was found in the worship of him, but Christianity remains. This is an imperfect argument, admittedly, but I think that there is something worth considering here.
QuoteAgain, what's a god?
antithesis, I have seen you post this a couple different places around this board, but I haven't seen any responses yet. So I will take a swing at it, but humbly--its a pretty daunting task ;)
There are a lot of problems with the Noah movie, but one thing it was dead on about was the importance of a Creator. I look around the world and see beauty in the sunrise, in the flowers, in the eyes of a young lady and I cannot help but see design. So primarily, I see a god as a Creator. A god that created this world must be transcendent, because in order to create all he would have had to start with nothing. He must be powerful, he created this universe after all. He must be logical because he created the laws of reason. He must be personal because he created persons and made relationships a valuable part of their existence. Those are a few things I see as being a part of a god. If you don't mind me asking, how would you describe what a god is?
Quote1) Unnecessary capitalization is childish, or should I say Childish
Ugh, sorry. I came on here with the full intention of not capitalizing pronouns or the like because I knew it wouldn't relate; I thought I did a good job early on. It is an absolute must in a lot of the Christian academic world so I carry a lot of that over.
As for your example, I think it is insufficient because the Bible is not one man writing the story of God. It is 40 authors writing over the period of hundreds of years all saying the same thing. I think that's incredible! There really is not a contemporary comparison that I can think of, but I would be open to hearing any out.
Quote
And while we are on free will, why not come down here and show himself to be true? Then we would actually have a choice. Currently all religions seem equally invalid, and to the believers they all seem valid. Why not set the record straight? That wouldn't remove free will (if it existed). I for one could never have followed your god, at least not honestly, because I know "in my heart" that the character described in the bible is a disgusting monster with horrible moral, and is inferior to me in every way aside from muscles. Like the mob boss he could probably have tortured me till the point I cracked, but in my mind I would never respect or consider him good.
I would say that he did come down and showed himself to be true in Jesus, but people still did not believe him!
Sorry, I missed so much. I am really strapped for time!
Quote from: SB Leader on April 21, 2014, 04:59:47 PMI would say that he did come down and showed himself to be true in Jesus, but people still did not believe him!
That was a dodge and not a reply to my question regarding free will, but ok:
So your god is so incompetent and powerless that he is incapable of even making people understand that he's real? Say you're right. Say Jesus was god. He then only attempted to convince less than 1% of the world personally. He came to one region. Even if he has such limited skills and power, he could at least attempt to demonstrate his realness to the same extent for the rest of the people on earth, no?
Hell, today we have advanced science and actual ways of testing his claims. Couldn't he at least have taken the James Randi challenge so that we could see that there's anything at all to his claims?
Once again, from inside the box. Try outside- first of all, prove that Jesus actually existed, the Messianic miracle producing Jesus of the bible. See this is the advent of god- the single greatest event in recorded history with all the attendant miracles attached. Strangely enough, all that incredible stuff managed to not get noticed by any historians or record keepers outside those very few quoted by Christian sources.
http://dailycaller.com/2013/10/09/biblical-scholar-claims-jesus-was-invented-by-romans/
http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_historical_existence_of_Jesus_Christ
Hmmmm... funny thing, that. :think:
by the by Stroms....its sammich goddamn it.....god gets pissy if'n you eat a ham sammich....
Quote from: La Dolce Vita on April 21, 2014, 04:54:49 PM
Been a long time since I read the new testament, but I thought Paul in particular had a lot to say against it.
There are many references to whoremongers and other similar scriptures, but i should modify that and say that Jesus specifically is not quoted as saying anything against it.
QuoteNow are we to just say that the majority of mankind has been ignorant, superstitious brutes or that perhaps humans have always been drawn to something beyond this world because something beyond this world exists. If we are basing this off of numbers alone, we are compelled to believe the latter.
This is a fallacy known as Argumentum ad populum. For the majority of human existence humans believed the world was flat and at the center of the solar system. Both are as incorrect as the belief in a magic omnipotent father figure.
QuoteSo the following of idols is a chasing after the spiritual realm, but a misunderstood chasing. Baal worship is dead, probably because of the powerlessness that was found in the worship of him, but Christianity remains.
A great many religions remain and more are created all the time. Did you just forget that?
What you are doing here is called special pleading. It's another type of logical fallacy that results from a one sided assessment. You leave out the majority of the world which happens to not be christian to produce the result you want.
QuoteThis is an imperfect argument, admittedly, but I think that there is something worth considering here.
Actually there is nothing worth considering here. I suggested that you were not applying your own reasoning to yourself and you replied with two huge logical fallacies. Not only that, you still refused to apply the reasoning to yourself.
Quote"I think man invented gods because we seek idols to fulfill our desires."
So what are your desires? Is it a need to have "meaning" in your life? Do you fear dying and long for eternal life?
Do you think you accepted an invented god to help you fulfill these desires? This is a rhetorical question. The answer is... yes you did. All you need now is the emotional maturity to accept the truth of this answer.
QuoteThis is a fallacy known as Argumentum ad populum. For the majority of human existence humans believed the world was flat and at the center of the solar system. Both are as incorrect as the belief in a magic omnipotent father figure.
The people who were wrong about the earth and sun still experienced the sun's heat and earth's ground beneath their feet and the motion of the two bodies. They were wrong about the sun's movement, but their experiences still had real causes. But if God does not exist then what have believers been experiencing? It would have to be a mass psychosis on a scale that is unfathomable.
Quote from: SB Leader on April 21, 2014, 07:46:47 PM
The people who were wrong about the earth and sun still experienced the sun's heat and earth's ground beneath their feet and the motion of the two bodies. They were wrong about the sun's movement, but their experiences still had real causes. But if God does not exist then what have believers been experiencing? It would have to be a mass psychosis on a scale that is unfathomable.
Meh, unfathomable... You wouldn't believe how big variants of 'folie a deux' can get. 'folie en masse' is not unthinkable.
That being said, I think it's not best understood as mass psychosis just mass indoctrination. Positively reïnforcing things that make you part of the group and actually feel part of the group (aka socializing) is something best studied through sociology, not psychology. (Though as a sociologist I may be biased.) Perhaps a better way for you to approach this would be that people experience their relation to God like they experience their relation to their country. Patriotism is indoctrinated much in the same way as religion: as dogma without question. We Americans are the most free, period. Us Belgians have the best beer, chocolate and fries, period. We Germans are the most efficiënt, period. Us Britains have build the greatest empire in the world, period. We Indians have brought forth the greatest pacifist of all time, period.
And most of us keep a special place in our heart for our country, convinced of it being 'the best' and true.
I feel Belgian. And I'm proud to be Belgian. And you probably feel proud to be American.
But is there really something as Belgium or America? They, like all nations, are man-made concepts that only exists because we say they do. Their borders are not a part of nature. The people within the countries are as closely related as they are to the inhabitants of neighbouring countries. Their order and laws and principles only exist to the extent of our agreement. Without us, there are no nations. Without us, there are no Gods.
Quote from: SB Leader on April 21, 2014, 07:46:47 PM
But if God does not exist then what have believers been experiencing? It would have to be a mass psychosis on a scale that is unfathomable.
So you have to admit then, that the psychosis that seems to prove (by your way of thinking) a god, must apply equally to every god ever to have been thought to exist. This, by your infallible logic, proves that every god ever believed to exist does indeed exist, and thusly by extension, one god is as good as another as no culture shows obvious signs of favoritism by having mass "miracles" as such.
Wow, you did it...YOU DID IT!! YOU PROVED EVERY GOD EXISTS! Wow congradulations.
Quote from: SB Leader on April 21, 2014, 07:46:47 PM
The people who were wrong about the earth and sun still experienced the sun's heat and earth's ground beneath their feet and the motion of the two bodies. They were wrong about the sun's movement, but their experiences still had real causes. But if God does not exist then what have believers been experiencing? It would have to be a mass psychosis on a scale that is unfathomable.
This is an if-then fallacy. there have been societies that did not believe in your god that came up with other gods or other explanantions. The Chinese and other cultures were ahead of western civilization on many fronts. there is no mass psychosis involved, but knowledge that there wer other causes for natural phenomena.
Inside the box. Your entire viewpoint is myopic Christian rhetoric.
Welcome aboard! Solitary
-How would you describe your religious background and church involvement? Atheist since 6 years old, went to church (Methodist) at ten years old, had pastor slam my had onto my desktop leaving a goose egg. Got married in a Catholic Church, and could not stop laughing when my future wife prayed at the Virgin Mary statue and it fell over knocking the flower pot over.
-To you, what is God like? Describe God. Or if you do not believe in God, then: what is important in life? Life itself is important, as well as my family and health (mental and physical), reality is important, not superstitious nonsense.
-What do you think is important and unimportant to God? (Feel free to skip if you do not believe in God, or you are welcome to speculate as well if you are agnostic) Obviously, nothing is important to God if He exists, if He doesn't exist nothing in the world in the past or now would be any different.
-What do you think it takes to be straightened out with God? (Same as above) Placating him and sacrificing this life with the hope of being with Him bored to death for eternity.
-Describe what the term Jesus Christ means to you. A symbol of Love, corrupted by Christians into a real person that died for their supposed sins.
-From your perspective, what are the major problems of churches today? That they have failed mankind in the past and still do with superstitious nonsense with magical thinking, and not facing reality.
-To you, what is God like? Describe God. Or if you do not believe in God, then: what is important in life? Life itself with my loved ones, health (both mental and physical), not superstitious nonsense or imaginary things that don't exist, but reality.
-What do you think is important and unimportant to God? (Feel free to skip if you do not believe in God, or you are welcome to speculate as well if you are agnostic) Nothing if He exists, because for 2,000+ years it has been the same for every living creature as if He didn't.
-Describe what the term Jesus Christ means to you. A symbol of love corrupted by Christians to be a real person.
-From your perspective, what are the major problems of churches today?
Failing mankind to better itself with superstitious nonsense in the past, as well as now with magical thinking, and the clergy being hypocritical parasites that prey on their fellow mans credulity and ignorance.. Solitary
Quote from: SB Leader on April 21, 2014, 07:46:47 PM
The people who were wrong about the earth and sun still experienced the sun's heat and earth's ground beneath their feet and the motion of the two bodies. They were wrong about the sun's movement, but their experiences still had real causes.
So let's agree that they felt something, thought something, but were ultimately wrong about it even though they were in the vast majority. A perfect example of why the argumentum ad populum is a fallacy.
So surely you're not going to double down on a logical fallacy you yourself agree has led to a huge number of people feeling something but in the end being wrong about the nature of what they felt.
QuoteBut if God does not exist then what have believers been experiencing? It would have to be a mass psychosis on a scale that is unfathomable.
Ooops, I guess not.
Try going back to step one above and understand that people lacking in information will often make big assumptions and big mistakes... and do this en masse. Not only is it fathomable, it's actually to be expected.
Unfortunately you did not address the real difficult question. You know that man invents gods for psychological reasons. You said it yourself "we seek idols to fulfill our desires."
So do you have the honesty to admit that you are also doing this?
The difference between your god and an idol is a matter of interpretation. Mormons don't wear crucifixes because by their belief, Christ's death wasn't the point, but rather what happened in the Garden of Gethsemane. I was raised to believe that images of the virgin mary, crucifixes and every other symbol was idolatry. Yet they have images of angels on top of their temples- go figure.
Like i said, until you start from outside the box and learn to judge objectively, your interpretations are all going to be colored by what you have been indoctrinated into. And yes, you were indoctrinated.
Quote from: SB Leader on April 21, 2014, 07:46:47 PMBut if God does not exist then what have believers been experiencing? It would have to be a mass psychosis on a scale that is unfathomable.
By that logic, there must also be some truth in the following beliefs: pagan gods, witches, bigfoot, and alien visitors.
Ironically, Christians typically assert that the pagans were wrong in their beliefs without supposing that such beliefs were either the result of some "unfathomable" mass psychosis or actually true. But when it comes to Christian beliefs, this argument is very popular. (and therefore true)
I was a Christian for 18 years after leaving the Mormon church, and a Youth Leader for 2 years. I understand what you mean by the holy spirit or whatever because I was in the Assemblies of God at the start. I felt the same "spirit" at times as a Mormon; can't have holy spirit in 2 separate religions, can you?
And what about the fervor of Islamists or any other religion? All the same vibe under a different name. As has been posted here previously, I've had similar "exalted" feelings in my outdoor activities, seeing some beautiful place in the wild. You can call it spiritual or what you want, but it is common across the human experience and not confined to a Christian church.
Quote from: SB Leader on April 21, 2014, 07:46:47 PM
But if God does not exist then what have believers been experiencing? It would have to be a mass psychosis on a scale that is unfathomable.
Hey, you're about to begin to get the point.
Amazing! He answered his own question and doesn't realize it. Solitary
Quote from: SB Leader on April 21, 2014, 07:46:47 PMif God does not exist then what have believers been experiencing? It would have to be a mass psychosis on a scale that is unfathomable.
Hitler must have been a really really nice guy right? Millions of people experienced warm feelings for him during WOII. That many people can't be wrong!
Which brings me to my next question:
Anne Frank, who was tortured to death by christians, never believed in your jebus. She did however worship your god all her life.
So what did your god do to her after she died?
Quote from: SB Leader link=topic=4435.msg1010648#msg1010648
antithesis, I have seen you post this a couple different places around this board, but I haven't seen any responses yet. So I will take a swing at it, but humbly--its a pretty daunting task ;)
Thank you. You may be the first theist to attempt to answer this question since I've started using it to summarize the atheist position.
QuoteThere are a lot of problems with the Noah movie, but one thing it was dead on about was the importance of a Creator.
"Creator" is a job description, not an explation. If someone who'd never heard of cats asked what one was, "a cat is what pooped behind the television," would not be a good explanation, either.
QuoteI look around the world and see beauty in the sunrise, in the flowers, in the eyes of a young lady and I cannot help but see design.
That's appeal to emotion, a sadly common tactic among Christians. I would appreciate you not using it anymore. Seeing god in the beautiful things in this world tell us less about god than how poor your eyesight is.
Do you see the beauty in parasites? Do you see the design of the girl in Africa with a worm in her eye that will make her blind? Do you see the love in the bot fly larva eating a man's brain?
Now that I've brought these things up, you will either continue to appeal to emotion and accuse me of only see the bad in the world , ignoring that the problem is that you only look at the good, or you will some sort of excuse about how you still see design there or some such rot. I would rather you not do that. The point was this line is a dead end. Nothing of value will be gleaned from it.
QuoteA god that created this world must be transcendent, because in order to create all he would have had to start with nothing.
This has the potential to be interesting.
What does transcendent mean, besides a terrible movie starring Johnny Depp?
QuoteHe must be powerful, he created this universe after all.
That does not follow. Although, "powerful" is a vague term.
If god created the universe all that means is, at one time, god possessed the ability to create a universe. That's all. This does not necessitate that is powerful, much less all-powerful, or that is able to do anything else.
QuoteHe must be logical because he created the laws of reason.
Oh. This again.
I find sort of thing rather puzzling. What is this obsession with never putting anything above everything, including inanimate concept like logic and reason? It strikes me like childish one-upmanship. Like how Christians call their god simply "God" instead of Yahweh, his original name when he was the Canaanite god of war. I just find it weird.
QuoteHe must be personal because he created persons and made relationships a valuable part of their existence.
This is where our different views simply do not mesh. I don't see as any kind evidence for or insite into god but just evolution at work. It is easier to survive if several individuals work together, so humans developed emotional bonding to keep them together and take care of each other. Humans still have this trait because those that didn't died thousands of years ago. Although some are born without these traits. We call them psychopaths.
QuoteIf you don't mind me asking, how would you describe what a god is?
I would describe god as anything. I have never seen anything that would require anything that could be called a god. This is why I sum up the atheist position as "what's a god?" I have no idea. Hence the question.