Why do organisms chose existence over non-existence? What drives organism so that they must survive,our lives are mostly filled with suffering. Like take for instance a mole it lives it's whole life in misery in the dark and it still wants to reproduce,look at the bees they work all of their life they still want to reproduce,look at the ants they only work and work and still they reproduce to continue this vicious cycle all this animals are no difference from us ,so why do people or other organism still tend to reproduce if all existence is suffering? Now there are times when you are happy or life seems perfect but those moments lasts for a very short time when suffering on the other side is much longer and stronger than happiness is.
Quote from: FractalEternalWheel on March 22, 2014, 03:40:43 PM
Why do organisms chose existence over non-existence? What drives organism so that they must survive,our lives are mostly filled with suffering. Like take for instance a mole it lives it's whole life in misery in the dark and it still wants to reproduce,look at the bees they work all of their life they still want to reproduce,look at the ants they only work and work and still they reproduce to continue this vicious cycle all this animals are no difference from us ,so why do people or other organism still tend to reproduce if all existence is suffering? Now there are times when you are happy or life seems perfect but those moments lasts for a very short time when suffering on the other side is much longer and stronger than happiness is.
Evolution.
You'll likely find this an unsatisfying answer; Organisms live on because the genes of those who wanted not to live on are (at best) a small portion of the population because those who wanted not to live on reproduce at a lower rate than those who want to live. The genes of those who want to live (and reproduce) are propagated to the next generation. No species would long be a majority of those who wished not to live because they'd die.
*edit: or what Mermaid said much more succinctly *
For what little it is worth, I disagree with your last sentence and the last four words of the one before it.
Quote from: FractalEternalWheel on March 22, 2014, 03:40:43 PM
Why do organisms chose existence over non-existence? What drives organism so that they must survive,our lives are mostly filled with suffering. Like take for instance a mole it lives it's whole life in misery in the dark and it still wants to reproduce,look at the bees they work all of their life they still want to reproduce,look at the ants they only work and work and still they reproduce to continue this vicious cycle all this animals are no difference from us ,so why do people or other organism still tend to reproduce if all existence is suffering? Now there are times when you are happy or life seems perfect but those moments lasts for a very short time when suffering on the other side is much longer and stronger than happiness is.
https://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20140122-a-new-physics-theory-of-life/ (https://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20140122-a-new-physics-theory-of-life/)
One does not choose nonexistence. You can choose to continue to exist and survive.
Quote from: FractalEternalWheel on March 22, 2014, 03:40:43 PM
Why do organisms chose existence over non-existence? What drives organism so that they must survive,our lives are mostly filled with suffering. Like take for instance a mole it lives it's whole life in misery in the dark and it still wants to reproduce,look at the bees they work all of their life they still want to reproduce,look at the ants they only work and work and still they reproduce to continue this vicious cycle all this animals are no difference from us ,so why do people or other organism still tend to reproduce if all existence is suffering? Now there are times when you are happy or life seems perfect but those moments lasts for a very short time when suffering on the other side is much longer and stronger than happiness is.
I think you have several issues here, firstly, "organisms" as organsims may not actually be cognizant of death so living is pretty much done by de facto. They don't "choose" as much as they simply don't "not" choose.
Your opinion that a mole lives in misery is a rather simple case of arrogance. You don't know what a mole thinks. You seem to think that non-existence offers a better non-life than existence...can you offer some explanation of this? What does this magnificent non-existence of yours offer that is so much better?
Quote from: aitm on March 22, 2014, 10:50:53 PM
I think you have several issues here, firstly, "organisms" as organsims may not actually be cognizant of death so living is pretty much done by de facto. They don't "choose" as much as they simply don't "not" choose.
Your opinion that a mole lives in misery is a rather simple case of arrogance. You don't know what a mole thinks. You seem to think that non-existence offers a better non-life than existence...can you offer some explanation of this? What does this magnificent non-existence of yours offer that is so much better?
Every kind of organism with a brain experiences suffering a quick google search can answer that question.
Source: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101229124208.htm
http://www.utilitarian-essays.com/insect-pain.html
I'm throwing the word pain and suffering in the same basket
Non-existence is better than life because first of all non-existence is eternal when life lasts few decades. When this life ends you enter into an eternity of peace freed from whatever kind of suffering,so again from my point of view eternity of peace is better than decades of constant struggle just so that you can pass your genetic material on,which seems extremely meaningless but again the universe isn't meaningless nor does it has a meaning ( if you understand what I'm trying to say,my english isn't so good)
I was thinking today that because of our suffering,we invented things like art,philosophy,science,religion,music... so that we can give our self some comfort in this life if we wouldn't be suffering why would we even need this things?. I also view friendship and love a product of suffering,if you would not be suffering why would love or friendship be even needed. So suffering in the end produces something good.
Although life is beautiful sometimes it is mostly hard we suffer most of the time,and the good times only lasts for a very short period of time. I But I still can't figure out why people want to live for an eternity or want to be reincarnated,... this sounds like hell for me.
anyway it would be nice if someone would be nice enough to listen to my stupid bitchin' because I feel so isolated not because I don't have any friends but because I can not communicate with them the things that seem important to me ( or they just don't understand my point of view which seems far more logical)
Quote from: FractalEternalWheel on March 23, 2014, 10:23:06 AM
Every kind of organism with a brain experiences suffering a quick google search can answer that question.
Source: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101229124208.htm
http://www.utilitarian-essays.com/insect-pain.html
I'm throwing the word pain and suffering in the same basket
Non-existence is better than life because first of all non-existence is eternal when life lasts few decades. When this life ends you enter into an eternity of peace freed from whatever kind of suffering,so again from my point of view eternity of peace is better than decades of constant struggle just so that you can pass your genetic material on,which seems extremely meaningless but again the universe isn't meaningless nor does it has a meaning ( if you understand what I'm trying to say,my english isn't so good)
I was thinking today that because of our suffering,we invented things like art,philosophy,science,religion,music... so that we can give our self some comfort in this life if we wouldn't be suffering why would we even need this things?. I also view friendship and love a product of suffering,if you would not be suffering why would love or friendship be even needed. So suffering in the end produces something good.
Although life is beautiful sometimes it is mostly hard we suffer most of the time,and the good times only lasts for a very short period of time. I But I still can't figure out why people want to live for an eternity or want to be reincarnated,... this sounds like hell for me.
anyway it would be nice if someone would be nice enough to listen to my stupid bitchin' because I feel so isolated not because I don't have any friends but because I can not communicate with them the things that seem important to me ( or they just don't understand my point of view which seems far more logical)
Because evolution.
Quote from: Mermaid on March 23, 2014, 10:29:44 AM
Because evolution.
And evolution is a special case of a more general phenomenon. Any group of atoms, driven by an external source of energy (like the sun or chemical fuel) and surrounded by a heat bath (like the ocean or atmosphere), will gradually restructure itself in order to dissipate increasingly more energy. From there it's all about the laws of thermodynamics. Hence life is universal, and so is evolution.
Quote from: FractalEternalWheel on March 22, 2014, 03:40:43 PM
Why do organisms chose existence over non-existence? What drives organism so that they must survive,our lives are mostly filled with suffering.
This is not philosophy. This is childish appeal to emotion with no thought or intelligence.
In other words, who the fuck are you to say moles are miserable? Do you know any moles? Do moles talk to you? They may love it in the dark underground. The fuck is wrong with you?
What makes you assume that the mole or the bee are miserable? Maybe they like the situation they are in.
You have no way of knowing.
Also why do you assume that our lives are mostly filled with suffering? Maybe your life is mostly filled with suffering, to which I'd say that sucks and get some help if it's psychological, but don't try to project that unto every other person and animal out there.
If I'm correct, your argument boils down to this:
1. Most of life is suffering.
2. Existence is suffering.
3. Therefore why bother reproducing or even existing for that matter?
If that's the case your argument fails because 1 and 2 aren't proven.
Quote from: FractalEternalWheel on March 23, 2014, 10:23:06 AM
Every kind of organism with a brain experiences suffering
as we both know, feeling pain and being cognizent of death is a pretty large leap to make such an assumption on a organism if which you have no knowledge
QuoteNon-existence is better than life
supposition
QuoteI was thinking today
this is an excellent start.. i hope you do not stop anytime soon
QuoteAlthough life is beautiful sometimes it is mostly hard
this is true
Quoteanyway it would be nice if someone would be nice enough to listen ...... or they just don't understand my point of view which seems far more logical
of course we are listening, we are responding. Don't be so quick to jump off the cliff, although it seems you are already at the precipice. Many, many, many people have shared your frustration. Relax and scan a few threads that you find intriging before you write us off. If you wish to start this just so you can go off and cry god save me, than you can expect to be justly ridiculed as a moron. If you are just frustrated because god doesn't seem to hear you, then sit down and find out why.
Quote from: FractalEternalWheel on March 22, 2014, 03:40:43 PM
Why do organisms chose existence over non-existence?
The westernized world has confused you into thinking that you can choose basically anything. You can't choose existence like you can vote for a candidate or choose between toothpaste brands.
Bees and moles are unfamiliar with this whole choice concept. They don't need that shit. Also, they don't sit around and ponder thier existence like we do, they are too busy doing bee and mole stuff to be preoccupied with the meaning of suffering.
Quote from: FractalEternalWheel on March 22, 2014, 03:40:43 PM
Why do organisms chose existence over non-existence? at drives
Because those that choose nonexistence do not live long enough to pass on their nonexistence-choosing gene. So all that's all that's leftover.
Death is the main engine of evolution. Only those that live long enough to reproduce get to pass their genes on to the next generation. Asking why organisms continue to survive is like asking why does shit roll downhill.
Every time I see this thread I see 'why do orgasms tend to exist' and all I have come up with is it feels good.
Sorry.
Non existence choosing gene. Never thought of that one. :think:
I gotta be honest here, 'why do orgasms tend to exist' sounds far more interesting.
Then again. Maybe it's just me.
Quote from: FractalEternalWheel on March 22, 2014, 03:40:43 PMWhy Do Organisms tend to exist?
Because it makes the act of reproduction a rewarding experience regardless of whether it's successful or not.
Quote from: Jason78 on March 25, 2014, 09:49:53 AM
Because it makes the act of reproduction a rewarding experience regardless of whether it's successful or not.
Which is why orgasms are more interesting than organisms.
When anything dies, it does not cease to exist, it merely dies, and exists in another form. Matter is matter, after all.
It is the cosmic imperative, or purpose in life, to perpetuate our species. We have a will toward pleasure and life, and to avoid pain and suffering. There actually are people that get pleasure out of pain and suffering called masochists. Why else would some religious people flagellate themselves? And why is masturbation called self abuse by some religious people? Why does the Catholic Church want to instill quilt for things that are pleasurable and not hurting anyone? Not all of life is about pain and suffering unless you let it be, even when you get as old as I am, the good things are still good, even if they become less to be able to experience. Always be happy, when suffering it will end sooner or later, and when not, be happy you are not. If nothing else helps get drunk. If it's unbearable end it, life is not sacred at that point. Do the best you can, it is the only chance you have to live, no matter what people believe doesn't change what is factual and real. Solitary
Quote from: Jmpty on March 25, 2014, 12:44:48 PM
When anything dies, it does not cease to exist, it merely dies, and exists in another form. Matter is matter, after all.
Can you show examples of this? Our bodies don't exist after we die, only the parts that make it up. That is not who we are, we emerge from all those living parts (cells) functioning. When they die we don't exist, just like when we get hit on the head from a blow that knocks us unconscious. We are consciousness itself trapped in a body, and nothing more. Solitary
How do the atoms that make up Solitary change when Solitary dies? Does a piece of petrified wood cease to exist because the tree it came from dies? Does an insect caught in amber for 10,000 years no longer exist because it died? What is this "consciousness" you speak of?
Quote from: the_antithesis on March 23, 2014, 01:46:10 PM
This is not philosophy. This is childish appeal to emotion with no thought or intelligence.
In other words, who the fuck are you to say moles are miserable? Do you know any moles? Do moles talk to you? They may love it in the dark underground. The fuck is wrong with you?
dude like chill out,we are just discussing ideas no need to get all angry and start bashing my stupidity. Ok so when I was writing this I do agree I was emotionally exhausted but still,...and I do believe that you should keep your temper down its not really healthy you know.
Quote from: aitm on March 23, 2014, 10:17:48 PM
as we both know, feeling pain and being cognizent of death is a pretty large leap to make such an assumption on a organism if which you have no knowledge
supposition
this is an excellent start.. i hope you do not stop anytime soon
this is true
of course we are listening, we are responding. Don't be so quick to jump off the cliff, although it seems you are already at the precipice. Many, many, many people have shared your frustration. Relax and scan a few threads that you find intriging before you write us off. If you wish to start this just so you can go off and cry god save me, than you can expect to be justly ridiculed as a moron. If you are just frustrated because god doesn't seem to hear you, then sit down and find out why.
Hmm I haven't wrote you off,anyway again I was really emotionally fucked that day,and I bearably remember writing any of this so sorry,next time when I will go through emotions like this I won't start new threads.
Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on March 23, 2014, 10:04:59 PM
What makes you assume that the mole or the bee are miserable? Maybe they like the situation they are in.
You have no way of knowing.
Also why do you assume that our lives are mostly filled with suffering? Maybe your life is mostly filled with suffering, to which I'd say that sucks and get some help if it's psychological, but don't try to project that unto every other person and animal out there.
If I'm correct, your argument boils down to this:
1. Most of life is suffering.
2. Existence is suffering.
3. Therefore why bother reproducing or even existing for that matter?
If that's the case your argument fails because 1 and 2 aren't proven.
well they aren't proven wrong ether so your argument does not prove anything.
anyway what are your thoughts on Biocentrism?
http://www.robertlanzabiocentrism.com/why-do-you-exist/
This theory that the universe exists only if it is observed by consciousness seems a bit silly,because if nothing exists unless I observe it then you do not exists because I do not see you.And what about evolution? If all that inorganic stuff happened before organic life, and then organic life with consciousness, how did that consciousness come about?
QuoteThis theory that the universe exists only if it is observed by consciousness seems a bit silly
Talk about an understatement. It's both ridiculous and meaningless, more of one or the other depending on your definition of "consciousness".
Quote from: the_antithesis on March 23, 2014, 01:46:10 PM
who the fuck are you to say moles are miserable? Do you know any moles? Do moles talk to you? They may love it in the dark underground. The fuck is wrong with you?
I don't know about any of this. Ants might be happy, but bees seem angry sometimes. I don't like bees very much, but I leave them alone, but I think ants are OK. Stink bugs don't seem much of anything. I have no idea why they should want to stink. Stinking isn't something I aspire to. I wouldn't want to be a stink bug. I think butterflies are happy.
I can kinda get into why bees always seem angry.
(http://www.stevestenzel.com/photos5/never_understand_bees.jpg)
Quote from: Plu on March 26, 2014, 10:03:05 AM
I can kinda get into why bees always seem angry.
(http://www.stevestenzel.com/photos5/never_understand_bees.jpg)
Must be a pretty good plan as people usually pull away when they see bees flying around.
Quote from: Jmpty on March 25, 2014, 04:44:19 PM
How do the atoms that make up Solitary change when Solitary dies? Does a piece of petrified wood cease to exist because the tree it came from dies? Does an insect caught in amber for 10,000 years no longer exist because it died? What is this "consciousness" you speak of?
The question is whether I would exist not my atoms. Also, a petrified wood is not a piece of the tree that died, it is stone. The insect still exists, but it is still not functioning and dead. Consciousness I already explained what it is. Look the word up in a good dictionary so you aren't arguing from ignorance. Solitary
Explain how "I" exist outside of my atoms.
Quote from: SGOS on March 26, 2014, 09:57:22 AM
I think butterflies are happy.
It would seem that way, but butterflies are mean little assholes when you get to know them personally.
Quote from: FractalEternalWheel on March 25, 2014, 05:31:31 PM
well they aren't proven wrong ether so your argument does not prove anything.
You're the one making a claim, I haven't made a claim but rather questioned the merit of your claim because you haven't provided evidence for it. The burden of proof is on you to prove your claim, not on me to disprove it.
I'm still working on how one chooses to not exist. In order to choose not to exist, you first have to exist. Otherwise you can't choose. I'm confused.
Quote from: stromboli on March 26, 2014, 05:18:51 PM
I'm still working on how one chooses to not exist. In order to choose not to exist, you first have to exist. Otherwise you can't choose. I'm confused.
I am going to take a stab at Sartre.....it is suicide "a priori" existing simple for the availability to commit suicide. Now that may not actually be the understanding of "a priori" per Sartre but I am sure I will be corrected.
Quote from: aitm on March 26, 2014, 10:21:20 PM
I am going to take a stab at Sartre.....it is suicide "a priori" existing simple for the availability to commit suicide. Now that may not actually be the understanding of "a priori" per Sartre but I am sure I will be corrected.
Wow, thanks. That cleared that up. Uhhh.......
Quote from: Elect on March 26, 2014, 11:32:52 AM
It would seem that way, but butterflies are mean little assholes when you get to know them personally.
Are you sure that you're not thinking of moths?
Quote from: stromboli on March 26, 2014, 05:18:51 PM
I'm still working on how one chooses to not exist. In order to choose not to exist, you first have to exist. Otherwise you can't choose. I'm confused.
That's because God works in mysterious ways. Who the fuck are you to question his wisdom?