Most doctors these days talk about meditation and spirituality as treatments for many conditions.
Isn't this some plot to instill religion/faith into society? What about atheists? Is it now "immoral" to be an atheist based on the morals/values of medical professionals?
Quote from: "darsenfeld"Most doctors these days talk about meditation and spirituality as treatments for many conditions.
Citations needed.
Oh what the heck, I will elaborate :)
It is a well known medical fact that attitude and mood do in fact have an impact on prognosis. This is not to say that you are a god-fearing bible-thumping nut case that is convinced god will save you of cancer, you will be cured. This is to say that if someone gets a serious illness, it is not medically constructive for that individual to be down on life and give up on themselves and the fight. The body tends to follow.
Spirituality doesn't have a definition in any definitive sense of the word. It means a lot of things to a lot of people.
So maybe the statement you posted to you means "doctors are telling patients to go find god"; to me it sounds like "doctors encouraging patiens to do some introspection and continue to fight the good fight"
Quote from: "darsenfeld"Most doctors these days talk about meditation and spirituality as treatments for many conditions.
WTF?
Quote from: "aileron"Quote from: "darsenfeld"Most doctors these days talk about meditation and spirituality as treatments for many conditions.
WTF?
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/use ... meditation (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/use-your-mind-change-your-brain/201305/is-your-brain-meditation)
Quote from: "darsenfeld"Quote from: "aileron"Quote from: "darsenfeld"Most doctors these days talk about meditation and spirituality as treatments for many conditions.
WTF?
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/use ... meditation (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/use-your-mind-change-your-brain/201305/is-your-brain-meditation)
Psychology Today, and especially one person's article in it doesn't represent what "most doctors these days talk about".
Only a small percentage of psychologists are scientific. Most psychologists live in a weird new-age mysticism and think science is making a bunch of shit up as they go.
Quote from: "Shol'va"Quote from: "darsenfeld"Most doctors these days talk about meditation and spirituality as treatments for many conditions.
Citations needed.
Oh what the heck, I will elaborate :)
It is a well known medical fact that attitude and mood do in fact have an impact on prognosis. This is not to say that you are a god-fearing bible-thumping nut case that is convinced god will save you of cancer, you will be cured. This is to say that if someone gets a serious illness, it is not medically constructive for that individual to be down on life and give up on themselves and the fight. The body tends to follow.
Spirituality doesn't have a definition in any definitive sense of the word. It means a lot of things to a lot of people.
So maybe the statement you posted to you means "doctors are telling patients to go find god"; to me it sounds like "doctors encouraging patiens to do some introspection and continue to fight the good fight"
Many clinics say that "spiritual support" is needed to recover, even for minor illnesses.
So if the medical profession is not being co-opted by a spiritual agenda, I fail to see why not.
The only thing I know about aging is you do it or you fucking DIE! :evil: Tell that to your doc.
Meditation is not religion. Spirituality is a self described state of mind experienced by individuals. I find nature to be spiritually uplifting. Nature, not god. I meditate on that. I am still an atheist.
Quote from: "darsenfeld"Most doctors these days talk about meditation and spirituality as treatments for many conditions.
Isn't this some plot to instill religion/faith into society? What about atheists? Is it now "immoral" to be an atheist based on the morals/values of medical professionals?
Not in my opinion. Meditation isn't about religion anyway.
but to many it has religious connotations.
And is there any inherent good in meditation, or is it just the medical community who are arch-traditionalists or something?
Quote from: "darsenfeld"Many clinics say that "spiritual support" is needed to recover, even for minor illnesses.
So if the medical profession is not being co-opted by a spiritual agenda, I fail to see why not.
Spiritual support means having someone there, like a friend or family, to help you through rough times.
Just because some woo pilot says meditation has to do with woo that doesn't make it so. I could sit and stare long enough at my foot till I calm down and perhaps my foot becomes the woo, but unless you want to give me tithing for my foot I wouldn't put to much stock in it being religion. The same pretty much holds true of *spirituality although I'm more inclined to think of spirituality as just made up feel good gibberish, but that's my opinion and nothing more.
That's your view, but then it's self-evident to me that medical professionals hold a plot to turn us into Tibet.
Quote from: "darsenfeld"That's your view, but then it's self-evident to me that medical professionals hold a plot to turn us into Tibet.
It's self evident to me that the government is run by aliens.
Your going to need more than that to convince people here that you are correct. If you don't care if we agree... then have at it, just don't act surprised when people laugh.
Well prove me wrong lol., if you can.
And no, I don't presume anybody in life HAS to agree with me. every human has his or her own mind, experiences, and values, and I'm just one person of billions.
Quote from: "darsenfeld"Well prove me wrong lol., if you can.
NO. You provide support for your assertions [-X
A. What Poison Tree said.
B. I can only go off of personal experience, which I suppose you are doing as well, so it is really hard to prove it based on that. I could probably find the evidence to back my position up (or hey, maybe completely prove me wrong) but ultimately this is such a non-issue to me that it's not something I feel the need to go and debate and farm for evidence.
If doctors are not practicing real medicine, death rates will go up. Afaik, that isn't the case... so the doctor's must be doing their job correctly.
Quote from: "darsenfeld"Most doctors these days talk about meditation and spirituality as treatments for many conditions.
Isn't this some plot to instill religion/faith into society? What about atheists? Is it now "immoral" to be an atheist based on the morals/values of medical professionals?
Meditation has a measurable effect on the mind and body. It's actually a pretty effective therapy for some conditions.
But spirituality as a treatment? I've never heard of an actual doctor prescribing anything like that.
Right, but if you wanted to avoid religious terminology you could just say "mental wellbeing". Spirituality is a word with far more interpretations, many of which have religious context, so the use of spirituality in a medical context is needlessly sloppy.
So you think the medical profession is conspiring to turn people religious? Am I understanding that correctly?
Quote from: "darsenfeld"Most doctors these days talk about meditation and spirituality as treatments for many conditions.
Nope, they do not. At least, they do not around these parts - that would be very unprofessional if they did, in my view.
Quote from: "darsenfeld"Isn't this some plot to instill religion/faith into society? What about atheists? Is it now "immoral" to be an atheist based on the morals/values of medical professionals?
What gives you that idea?
As said to me it seems self-evident. Most medical literature these days cite spirituality and "believing in God" as key in being healthy and "normal". It seems they cannot accept modern society, or the way the world is now. 15 years ago, to cure given cancers the treatment was (bar chemotherapy of course) "rest, be happy and enjoy your life how you want it" now it's "pray, meditate and keep God in your heart". lol.. There must be a reason for this change.
That said, I know humans will and can do anything to corrupt things, so it's no surprise.
Quote from: "darsenfeld"As said to me it seems self-evident. Most medical literature these days cite spirituality and "believing in God" as key in being healthy and "normal".
I've completed two sociology courses and a psychology course, am nearly finished with two more psychology courses, and have taken a couple classes that, while not focused on medicine, did touch on what is considered to be normal; and I have never had sight or sound of anything remotely hinting at a belief in God being a key to health.
Back up your bullshit or GTFO. Vague statements concerning "most medical literature" don't cut it.
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First of all, "most doctors" is not supported by any documentation. Secondly, any doctor, even a majority, does not constitute a medical paradigm. The implied recommendation of spirituality is not recommending a religion. Religions are specific sets of beliefs. Spirituality implies a general sense of well being. And meditation is done by many people who are not religious.
Sorry darsenfeld, with respect, you're sounding like a conspiracy theorist. Now that we are over the initial address of your points, we are now at the point where you will have to provide conclusive documentation that inescapably supports your perception.
I only know of one doctor that does "spiritual" work or "energy" work. And that's only because my mom found him and goes to him. I really don't know the details of what it is he is doing though, so I can't really say for sure that he actually is "doing energy work". My mom is a spiritual yahoo, so she sort of jumps to conclusions with that sort of stuff. I think he is just a chiropractor... and from the times I went to him, a pretty good one.
All other doctors I know of, have seen, heard about, don't touch that Hocus Pocus Voodoo B.S.
Quote from: "darsenfeld"Most doctors these days talk about meditation and spirituality as treatments for many conditions.
Isn't this some plot to instill religion/faith into society? What about atheists? Is it now "immoral" to be an atheist based on the morals/values of medical professionals?
Yoga, many forms of exercise, as well as singing and rhythmic chanting have much the same effect, I gather. Jeebus is not required....
Quote from: "darsenfeld"As an atheist does the recent medical paradigm threaten you?
There is no reason to be threatened from these reports or the bullshit that springs from them. As an atheist, the only interest I have is in the proof of a god's existence. And it's not even a vested interest. I have nothing to lose or gain either way. Show me convincing proof and I'll believe. It's that simple.
http://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatme ... ebo-effect (http://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/treatmenttypes/placebo-effect)
All spirituality is to me in regards to medicine is the placebo effect. Trick yourself into thinking somethings working and it might.
Why do ignorant people think everyone else is equally susceptible to bullshit?
Just to point out the "companion thread" to this one in case it was missed
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=3954 (http://atheistforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=3954)
er... I simply notice that believing in a higher power is now "key" to being healthy in many reputable medical sources.
So whilst is it not the true orthodoxy, like how fatty foods leads to heart disease or hypertension, then it's certainly an emerging trend. I guess to me, science is supposed to not push ideology or morals, but then yeah ("conspiracy theories" aside lol..) perhaps I'm too idealist...
I just don't want a doctor, even for a mild complaint, to tell me that I must "pray and believe in a Great Spirit" when it's not his or her place to say what I should or should not believe. No more than a mechanic, the sales rep at the Samsung store, or my massage therapist.
Quote from: "darsenfeld"er... I simply notice that believing in a higher power is now "key" to being healthy in many reputable medical sources.
Back. Up. Your. Bullshit.
Psychology and psychiatry---two magical professions---instead of neurology and pharmacology science says it all to me. My doctor tried to send me to group therapy and psychiatrist, when it is known by neurologist that PTSD is a change in the physical and biochemistry of the brain. I take a little pill that hasn't cured it, but has made it bearable. These ideas of mind and soul are both superstitious nonsense in my opinion. The mind is an emergence of the brain body functioning and not some supernatural entity. If you think not, drop some LSD and see if your mind or soul is separate from your body. If they were it couldn't have any affect. Hell, just drink three beers real fast and see. It won't be as dramatic, but it will prove the point I'm making. #-o :roll: Solitary
Quote from: "Mermaid"So you think the medical profession is conspiring to turn people religious? Am I understanding that correctly?
Yes, I do. Medicine rests on an evil premise, but it's not my issue.
Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Quote from: "darsenfeld"As said to me it seems self-evident. Most medical literature these days cite spirituality and "believing in God" as key in being healthy and "normal".
I've completed two sociology courses and a psychology course, am nearly finished with two more psychology courses, and have taken a couple classes that, while not focused on medicine, did touch on what is considered to be normal; and I have never had sight or sound of anything remotely hinting at a belief in God being a key to health.
Back up your bullshit or GTFO. Vague statements concerning "most medical literature" don't cut it.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk. Titty sprinkles.
er.. yeah, what level was this perchance? It's common fact from the practice.
Quote from: "stromboli"Meditation is not religion. Spirituality is a self described state of mind experienced by individuals. I find nature to be spiritually uplifting. Nature, not god. I meditate on that. I am still an atheist.
er.. so spiritualism and atheism are compatible? as is "gratitude"?
What evidence do you want exactly? I've posted from ESTABLISHED MEDICAL BODIES, and you still dismiss it.
I think you can't accept reality.
If it's so common and obvious, it shouldn't be hard to cite us a few examples so we know what you're talking about, right?
I already have. Again, what proof do you want?
Quote from: "darsenfeld"Quote from: "aileron"Quote from: "darsenfeld"Most doctors these days talk about meditation and spirituality as treatments for many conditions.
WTF?
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/use ... meditation (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/use-your-mind-change-your-brain/201305/is-your-brain-meditation)
I read through this article, but it doesn't mention anything about spirituality and it seems to be pretty scientific in explaining exactly how meditation is good for you.
Quote from: "darsenfeld"I already have. Again, what proof do you want?
More than a single article and a bunch of one-liner posts would be a start. Like maybe explaining what is spiritual about meditation, what you think meditation, some articles that actually talk about spirituality as good for you, and some explanations about how these things are bad for you?
This has gone on for 3 pages already and you've said less than most people trying to make a post do in their opening post...
Try using some more words when explaining things, people will be able to follow you more easily.
Quote from: "Plu"http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/use ... meditation (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/use-your-mind-change-your-brain/201305/is-your-brain-meditation)
I read through this article, but it doesn't mention anything about spirituality and it seems to be pretty scientific in explaining exactly how meditation is good for you.[/quote]
er.. yes, it implies because something is long-lived, it's inherently good. and that site clandestinely seeks to push religion as "the optimal good" via medical practice, i don't read it for that reason.
You seem to be getting something completely different from this article as I do. But if you refuse to make posts longer than one line there's little more I can do than say "sucks to be you" and leave the discussion.
lol.. Look, I'm entitled to my view. If the medical profession seeks to co-opt society to push this "spiritualism", so be it.
As said, I comprehend human nature, perhaps you need to also.
(//http://www.globalnerdy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/cool-story-bro.jpg)
lol.. whatever dude. so i must be nice to you, but you not to me. Either you're in high school, or you're insecure, either way "sucks to be you" I'm going... As said, if you claim such intelligence as you project, it means by definition one must be one the ball to your surroundings......
You don't have to be nice to me, you just need to give actual information beyond fucking one line posts if you want to have a discussion. :)
Quote from: "darsenfeld"Medicine rests on an evil premise
Wait, are we just going to ignore this? What "evil premise" is it that medicine rests on?
Quote from: "darsenfeld"er.. yeah, what level was this perchance? It's common fact from the practice.
"Common facts" are what you learn in Psych 100. I'm
well past that. And this was not so much as glossed over.
Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Quote from: "darsenfeld"er.. yeah, what level was this perchance? It's common fact from the practice.
"Common facts" are what you learn in Psych 100. I'm well past that. And this was not so much as glossed over.
hmm.. so science isn't based on a consensus based on research and proven evidence?
ahh.. this is why is meteorologists believe hurricanes are formed in Africa because the Niger River troll hates humans and wants to punish us? whatever dude, I think I've touched a nerve, not my issue.
Quote from: "darsenfeld"er... I simply notice that believing in a higher power is now "key" to being healthy in many reputable medical sources.
No it is not. This has already been explained to you but you are either ignoring the explanations or not comprehending them.
What part of "spirituality does not equal belief in god or transcendental" and "spirituality does not have a well established definition" do you not understand?
You cited ONE source and it has already been explained to you why you are
misunderstanding what it is actually saying.
If you find the fact that atheism and spirituality are compatible a shocking idea, then you need to analyze your own understanding of the terms.
People are starting to get rude with you because you are taxing everyone's patience.
Quote from: "darsenfeld"hmm.. so science isn't based on a consensus based on research and proven evidence?
It is. What you don't seem to be getting through that thick skull of yours is that your little hypothesis isn't part of that consensus. The fact that you've yet to provide a single source for your claim tells me that you either read the writings of one particular fringe group, or (most likely) you're making this shit up.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk. Titty sprinkles.
It is ironic how darsenfeld seems to be digging his heels into his preconceptions in an identical way as a religious person does when their beliefs are challenged.
Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Quote from: "darsenfeld"hmm.. so science isn't based on a consensus based on research and proven evidence?
It is. What you don't seem to be getting through that thick skull of yours is that your little hypothesis isn't part of that consensus. The fact that you've yet to provide a single source for your claim tells me that you either read the writings of one particular fringe group, or (most likely) you're making this shit up.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk. Titty sprinkles.
huh lol.. I like you claim to be "caring" as you cite in all other threads, but then you get easily irritated lol..
You probably need to realise that not everybody shares your worldview, nor was raised by a guru who supported your beliefs.
Quote from: "darsenfeld"Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Quote from: "darsenfeld"hmm.. so science isn't based on a consensus based on research and proven evidence?
It is. What you don't seem to be getting through that thick skull of yours is that your little hypothesis isn't part of that consensus. The fact that you've yet to provide a single source for your claim tells me that you either read the writings of one particular fringe group, or (most likely) you're making this shit up.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk. Titty sprinkles.
huh lol.. I like you claim to be "caring" as you cite in all other threads, but then you get easily irritated lol..
You probably need to realise that not everybody shares your worldview, nor was raised by a guru who supported your beliefs.
Doesn't answer arguments, doesn't respond to requests for evidence... gentlemen, we have a bonafied troll. Not one of the entertaining ones either.
Time to hit the ignore button. Have fun.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk. Titty sprinkles.
er.. you dismiss arguments, lol.. You remind me of a high school jock, you don't seem to get basic social discourse. Insecure, like I said before.
Quote from: "darsenfeld"hmm.. so science isn't based on a consensus based on research and proven evidence?
I think you're talking here about what I call the body of science, as opposed to the process of science, which seldom reaches consensus over night. There are usually many clashing views during the process, which is where the science actually takes place.
You seem to be getting your understanding of science from the Discovery channel where some scientist says something, which you take to mean "this is what science tells us", when it's just something some guy who might not even be a scientist says. No, that is not science, and you need to know what science actually says, before you claim that science says whenever some happy but perplexing musing pops into your mind that you want to pass off as science.
This sort of behavior is not your own specialty by the way. It occurs often enough in the lay population so that actual terms, like "junk science" have been introduced to describe them.
Quote from: "Shol'va"Quote from: "darsenfeld"er... I simply notice that believing in a higher power is now "key" to being healthy in many reputable medical sources.
No it is not. This has already been explained to you but you are either ignoring the explanations or not comprehending them.
What part of "spirituality does not equal belief in god or transcendental" and "spirituality does not have a well established definition" do you not understand?
You cited ONE source and it has already been explained to you why you are misunderstanding what it is actually saying.
If you find the fact that atheism and spirituality are compatible a shocking idea, then you need to analyze your own understanding of the terms.
People are starting to get rude with you because you are taxing everyone's patience.
Spiritual forces are inherently divine. Can they be explained by rational means?
Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Doesn't answer arguments, doesn't respond to requests for evidence... gentlemen, we have a bonafied troll. Not one of the entertaining ones either.
Right now, I'm going to call Troll also. He may have started out just looking for honest dialog, but in his confused state he is unable to clarify his ideas and he's trying to save face by being obtuse, silly, and purposely annoying. I think I've seen this pattern before. On the other hand, he have been a troll from the beginning. It doesn't make any difference at this point, however. I'm calling, "Troll."
Quote from: "SGOS"Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Doesn't answer arguments, doesn't respond to requests for evidence... gentlemen, we have a bonafied troll. Not one of the entertaining ones either.
Right now, I'm going to call Troll also.
Me three.
I miss Eve. 8-[
Look, our views differ.
I think medicine is being co-opted by spiritualist persons, you don't. So be it, we think differently.
Look, our views differ.
I think medicine is being co-opted by spiritualist persons, you don't. So be it, we think differently.
Quote from: "josephpalazzo"I miss Eve. 8-[
We still have MoFo.
Quote from: "darsenfeld"Look, our views differ.
I think medicine is being co-opted by spiritualist persons
We all understand you believe that. The issue at hand is that you can't back up your belief.
Quote from: "darsenfeld"Spiritual forces are inherently divine. Can they be explained by rational means?
We are not talking about spiritual forces. We are discussing the concept of spirituality in general.
Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Quote from: "josephpalazzo"I miss Eve. 8-[
We still have MoFo.
MoFo has been clubbed to death a million times by his own stupidity... Eve was sweet, innocent, dreamy...
Quote from: "darsenfeld"Quote from: "Shol'va"Quote from: "darsenfeld"er... I simply notice that believing in a higher power is now "key" to being healthy in many reputable medical sources.
No it is not. This has already been explained to you but you are either ignoring the explanations or not comprehending them.
What part of "spirituality does not equal belief in god or transcendental" and "spirituality does not have a well established definition" do you not understand?
You cited ONE source and it has already been explained to you why you are misunderstanding what it is actually saying.
If you find the fact that atheism and spirituality are compatible a shocking idea, then you need to analyze your own understanding of the terms. Solitary
People are starting to get rude with you because you are taxing everyone's patience.
Spiritual forces are inherently divine. Can they be explained by rational means?
Spiritual forces are no more divine than gravity or magnetism that have been explained by science. Neurology can show that OB's, or so-called spiritual events, are a product of the brain that contains psychedelics, by stimulating the correct part of the brain. There is absolutely no supernatural events that haven't been explain by science, or any that haven't been shown to be fraudulent. Even swamis that said they could walk on water and under test conditions went splashing. :lol: As to walking on hot coals, anyone can do it if the walk isn't too far. You can even dip your hand in molten lead and not get burnt if you do it correctly. #-o :rollin: :rollin:
Where's Eve when we need her? :-D :roll: Solitary
Quote from: "Solitary"If you find the fact that atheism and spirituality are compatible a shocking idea, then you need to analyze your own understanding of the terms. Solitary
People are starting to get rude with you because you are taxing everyone's patience.
Spiritual forces are inherently divine. Can they be explained by rational means?[/quote]
Spiritual forces are no more divine than gravity or magnetism that have been explained by science. Neurology can show that OB's, or so-called spiritual events, are a product of the brain that contains psychedelics, by stimulating the correct part of the brain. There is absolutely no supernatural events that haven't been explain by science, or any that haven't been shown to be fraudulent. Even swamis that said they could walk on water and under test conditions went splashing. :lol: As to walking on hot coals, anyone can do it if the walk isn't too far. You can even dip your hand in molten lead and not get burnt if you do it correctly. #-o :rollin: :rollin:[/quote]
So spirituality is not divine, and we're told by doctors it's good because they miss the good old days of when people were less educated and could not question their standpoints.
You keep making that assertion but repetition doesn't make it true. Again, you need to provide examples, which should not be difficult if this is a prevalent trend.
You also need to clearly establish by what definition of "spirituality" you are going by and providing examples of doctors specifically appealing to that same definition. Until you do so, this is nothing more than unsubstantiated assertions.
Quote from: "darsenfeld"Quote from: "Mermaid"So you think the medical profession is conspiring to turn people religious? Am I understanding that correctly?
Yes, I do. Medicine rests on an evil premise, but it's not my issue.
(//http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/16/Drevil_million_dollars.jpg)
Quote from: "Shol'va"You keep making that assertion but repetition doesn't make it true. Again, you need to provide examples, which should not be difficult if this is a prevalent trend.
You also need to clearly establish by what definition of "spirituality" you are going by and providing examples of doctors specifically appealing to that same definition. Until you do so, this is nothing more than unsubstantiated assertions.
Spirituality means the divine. kindly explain what it is "supposed" to mean..
Spirituality means the divine? Okay ... Show me where it says so. Show me where the term is defined and that is the only definition and no other ones are currently accepted.
Let me clue you in. You are only considering the religious meaning of spiritual. Divine literally means godlike. The term "spirituality" has a broader definition than that and is applied in many different terms.
Simply put, the term spiritual and spirituality does NOT exclusively mean, point to, or refer to the divine.
Start with google. Try "define: spirituality" and "define: divine"
You will see what I mean.
Spirituality = the divine, therefore it exists.
:Hangman:
Spirituality can mean pretty much whatever you want it to mean. Practically, most people I know consider it a much broader term than religion or the divine, and see it as being something that is mostly non-religious. Catching a decent wave on your surfboard, listening to John Petrucci's guitar solo in the Budokan version of Hollow Years, scuba diving in the Galapagos Islands, watching graphic displays on music player while on acid are all things I've heard described as 'spiritual' experiences by various people.
Who gets to decide what is or is not divine? If someone wants to try and nail it down then they need to define what their definition of the word spirituality is in order that a) we all know we're talking about the same thing and b) they can't move the goalposts halfway through the discussion.
My doctors never have suggested meditation or any "spiritual" approach.
I used to meditate often when I was a young atheist, and I don't see anything inherently spiritual or religious about the practice. I don't actively meditate any mjore, but I get a similar effect from playing my guitar or cooking a complex dinner; those activities take me out of myself.
Quote from: "darsenfeld"Most medical literature these days cite spirituality and "believing in God" as key in being healthy and "normal".
[Citation needed]
Quote from: "darsenfeld"Quote from: "stromboli"Meditation is not religion. Spirituality is a self described state of mind experienced by individuals. I find nature to be spiritually uplifting. Nature, not god. I meditate on that. I am still an atheist.
er.. so spiritualism and atheism are compatible? as is "gratitude"?
What evidence do you want exactly? I've posted from ESTABLISHED MEDICAL BODIES, and you still dismiss it.
I think you can't accept reality.
Apparently you cannot distinguish "spiritualism" from "spirituality"? They have different meanings.
Additionally, you've linked to a couple of articles, but what I'd like to see as evidence that
most doctors prescribe spirituality (which is what seems to be your premise) is solid field research showing how many doctors advise spiritual practices vs how many don't.
Lacking that sort of data, and based on not only my interactions with doctors but those of my family, I find your premise unconvincing.
Quote from: "Poison Tree"Quote from: "darsenfeld"Medicine rests on an evil premise
Wait, are we just going to ignore this? What "evil premise" is it that medicine rests on?
Suffering fucking idiots to live would be my first guess.
Eh, the psychological dimension is pretty important. Women can convince themselves that they're pregnant, and people can die of psychosomatic illnesses that aren't even there. That just means that the mind/body link has to be better understood.
Quote from: "Shol'va"Quote from: "darsenfeld"Look, our views differ.
I think medicine is being co-opted by spiritualist persons
We all understand you believe that. The issue at hand is that you can't back up your belief.
... not to mention that he is insulting those who don't accept his view.
eta: Also, sorry about the run of posts, I'm just catching up and responding as I do.
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Quote from: "darsenfeld"Most medical literature these days cite spirituality and "believing in God" as key in being healthy and "normal".
[Citation needed]
Hey! You stole my thing! :P
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Quote from: "Shol'va"Quote from: "darsenfeld"Look, our views differ.
I think medicine is being co-opted by spiritualist persons
We all understand you believe that. The issue at hand is that you can't back up your belief.
... not to mention that he is insulting those who don't accept his view.
eta: Also, sorry about the run of posts, I'm just catching up and responding as I do.
I never insulted anybody, can you say you haven't in this thread?
I said you have your view, I have mine. I think medicine is being co-opted, if you all think differently, so be it.
Quote from: "darsenfeld"I never insulted anybody, can you say you haven't in this thread?
Really?
Quote from: "darsenfeld"As said, I comprehend human nature, perhaps you need to also.
Either you're in high school, or you're insecure, either way "sucks to be you"
ahh.. this is why is meteorologists believe hurricanes are formed in Africa because the Niger River troll hates humans and wants to punish us? whatever dude, I think I've touched a nerve, not my issue.
huh lol.. I like you claim to be "caring" as you cite in all other threads, but then you get easily irritated lol..
You probably need to realise that not everybody shares your worldview, nor was raised by a guru who supported your beliefs.
er.. you dismiss arguments, lol.. You remind me of a high school jock, you don't seem to get basic social discourse. Insecure, like I said before.
The trolling is strong in this one.
Doesn't matter, people contradict.. eeek, don't get irked now lol..
Nobody is saying you can't contradict, the issue at hand is how you do it. Nice try at deflection but it doesn't work with us.
Quote from: "darsenfeld"Doesn't matter, people contradict.. eeek, don't get irked now lol..
You didn't contradict. You lied about not insulting folks when you have.
Say, did you ever find that study showing that most doctors prescribe spirituality?
No?
[youtube:1l19483z]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5VZjT0JE70[/youtube:1l19483z]
Enjoy your thread. You're not worth any more of my time. :)
eh? I wasn't really paying attention either. yes, people lie, get over it.
I have seen quite a few doctors in my over 50 years and I have never heard nor have I ever heard of a friend, acquaintance or even a chatty person at the pub say anything like , "my doc thinks meditation will help". Meh.
Quote from: "Shol'va"Nobody is saying you can't contradict, the issue at hand is how you do it. Nice try at deflection but it doesn't work with us.
So if you're so dim, why not accept people say things they don't mean?
Quote from: "darsenfeld"Quote from: "Shol'va"Nobody is saying you can't contradict, the issue at hand is how you do it. Nice try at deflection but it doesn't work with us.
So if you're so dim, why not accept people say things they don't mean?
What do you get from being a troll?
Quote from: "darsenfeld"So if you're so dim, why not accept people say things they don't mean?
Then be a man and own up to it and don't lie when you're being taken to task for your posts.
This is stupid.
Quote from: "the_antithesis"This is stupid.
There's a shocker :lol:
Quote from: "Shol'va"Quote from: "darsenfeld"So if you're so dim, why not accept people say things they don't mean?
Then be a man and own up to it and don't lie when you're being taken to task for your posts.
eh? the human norm is to contradict, and?
I dont think it has anything to do with anything. Meditation is just breathing exercises. When you look at spirituality, it's just a way of keeping a positive outlook. it's a way of not getting into a depressive slump; it's to help keep moving forward. Most people can't be atheists. They can't enjoy irony and cynical thinking. they can't grasp being alone in a sane fashion.
lulz... meditation is intrinsically religious. and spirituality? this is theistic also. so yes, the medical profession is forcing society to be theistic, hmmm.. nothing sinister there, right?
Do you even know what meditation is?
yes, chanting and praying.
Quote from: "Mermaid"Quote from: "darsenfeld"Quote from: "Shol'va"Nobody is saying you can't contradict, the issue at hand is how you do it. Nice try at deflection but it doesn't work with us.
So if you're so dim, why not accept people say things they don't mean?
What do you get from being a troll?
Nothing. And? it's only the Web, and I see you're always highly benevolent to others.
Quote from: "darsenfeld"[s:1j1cxymi]yes, chanting and praying.[/s:1j1cxymi]No, I have no idea
FTFY.
Quote from: "darsenfeld"And? it's only the Web...
Correct if I'm wrong, I presume with that assertion that you take the Web as a means of communication to be meaningless. It is if you make it so. But it doesn't have to be that.
Meditation is in no way the same as praying. Nor religious! :roll: Solitary
Quote from: "darsenfeld"yes, chanting and praying.
Yeah. No. It is neither of those. 8-[
Meh, let medical professionals plot to control society and push their subjective views...not my issue, I know the score of humanity... The Romans did it under Constantine, so I guess the Dharmists are thinking "it's our turn now!"
Quote from: "darsenfeld"Meh, let medical professionals plot to control society...
(//http://www.tacomaworld.com/gallery/data/500/tin-foil-hat.jpg)
My doctor told me to go to a baptist faith healer. Why are all the doctors telling people to go see christian faith healers now a days?
:shock: #-o :lol: http://youtu.be/GSQwS1Hf0yE (http://youtu.be/GSQwS1Hf0yE) Solitary
This is hilarious! "Everything God has made is good." I wonder if he would like to try some magic mushrooms in his meals? :rollin:
meh, I don't care, I'm merely stating an opinion and it seems that irks all of you.
just I value integrity in human conduct and yeah...if physcists don't say how we must behave, then neither should medical practitioners, but meh the human condition is to seek to dominate lol..
Your opinion is wrong.
wrong opinion, like saying BK is better than McDs is WRONG lol...
No, it's more like having the opinion that a BK Double Whopper is a firetruck.
Quote from: darsenfeldThat's your view, but then it's self-evident to me that medical professionals hold a plot to turn us into Tibet.
Oh, not another CT"er... Must be a copy of AtheistMoFo ...::)
"
Quote from: darsenfeldmeh, I don't care, I'm merely stating an opinion and it seems that irks all of you.
just I value integrity in human conduct and yeah...if physcists don't say how we must behave, then neither should medical practitioners, but meh the human condition is to seek to dominate lol..
meh, I don't care, I'm merely stating an opinion and it seems that irks all of you.
Your ignorance doesn't irk me! :) Solitary
Quote from: darsenfeldmeh, I don't care, I'm merely stating an opinion and it seems that irks all of you.
It doesn't irk anyone that you're stating an opinion. It irks people that you're making statements of fact which are unsupported and or easily proven wrong. For instance in your first post in this thread you said this:
QuoteMost doctors these days talk about meditation and spirituality as treatments for many conditions
When asked to provide proof that most doctors talk about mediation and spirituality as treatments for many conditions you provided a link to one single article by one single doctor which contained information about how meditation affects the brain. That article contains not one single word to indicate that this particular doctor nor any others are advocating meditation as a treatment for ANY condition. In addition that article contained not one single word about anything having to spirituality. Also it should go without saying that even if the article said what you're claiming it says (which it does not), it would still be the stated opinion of one single doctor and the stated opinion of one single individual can never be presented as valid proof that most individuals feel a certain way about something.
Then later in the thread you said this:Quotemeditation is intrinsically religious.
That is simply not true. Meditation is something that is practiced by theists and atheists alike. There is nothing intrinsically religious about it. It is true that some religions engage in meditation as a part of their religious practice. But there are lots of things which are done as part of religious ritual which are not inherently religious. For instance it is very common for people to sit on benches or chairs of some sort while observing religious ceremonies or services. But it would be silly to claim that anyone who advocates sitting a chair or bench is therefore trying to force a religious doctrine or some sort. People sit on chairs for all kinds of different reasons. And people meditate for all kinds of different reasons.
eh? I disagree, but I don't care really, you seem offended that anybody says anything different to you...
I contend that medicine is co-opted, but so be it.
There was nothing in my post which would suggest I was offended by anything you said.
I don't believe that, nor generally what strangers say.
Admit it, you're pissed off that I am "contradicting" when you believe this is your special reserve.
Tell me why I must give a shit about your special reserve, or your morals/cultural norms that make you think that? I do as I please, nobody really stops me nor has the charge to do so..
Does your case worker know you're using the computer?
eh? lol...
Oh would you look at that! He got banned.
Banhammer strikes again. Obtuse obfuscator obliterated. Stay tuned for your local news. Buy Pepsi.
IS THAT A FUCKING MARQUEE TAG!?! :angry:
Edited: Because apparently there is no emoticon for apoplectic rage.