Good article-
QuoteDear atheists, we ex muslims are waiting for you
Dear atheists, we ex muslims are waiting for you guys to get over christianity and start waging war against Islam for a change.Yeah sure it's really fun bashing the buy-bull,fundies,priests,young earthers,the pope,etc,but really dont you guys think that it is time to shift some attention to Islam?
We ex muslims are a very small minority,and there is really nothing we can do to change anything.We cant form organisations or voice our thoughts in most muslim countries.We practically have no rights whatsoever besides the right to go to jail or be hanged or beheaded for our blasphemy.
But the voice of millions of atheists like all of you would significantly help us.It brings to world attention our plight,and all the horrible things Islam is responsible for,and how it has oppressed and destroyed many of our lives,it would at least help to change some laws that would benefit us ex muslims.
While christianity still deserves our attention,the role of Islam around the world demands our action.
As it is practised around the world,Islam is a consummation of all the worst that religion has to offer.
-Cult like isolation from other world views means generation after generation is born into ignorance
-Circumcision of boys and girls because healthy children are not born perfect;they must have a knife taken to their genitals
-Leaving the faith means death, Apostasy is considered one of the worst crimes. (Death penalty in 13 Islamic countries)
-Treating women as sub human pieces of property that must be beaten into obedience (Quran 4;34) means at least half the population is silenced before they can speak.
-Reward of heaven is used as an incentive to kill and maim innocent people
-Unyielding dogma that leaves no room for thoughtful criticism or humor
-Islam means submission.They want to be slaves to their god;it's right there in the name
This is not a religion of peace and we need to be more vocal about calling muslims out when they perpetuate this lie
//http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/06/26/dear-atheists-we-ex-muslims-are-waiting-for-you/
A review of this article from the Council of ex muslims here-
//http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22897.0
Death for apostasy is a violation of article 18 of the Universal declaration of human rights, Islam is not compatible with human rights.
Agreed. As practiced today, Islam is by far the worst of the major religions. Christianity is no better; it's just held in check by science and secular power in the West. When Christianity had the power Islam does today, it killed for apostasy and treated women as property too.
There is definitely a noticeable bias among Atheists and self proclaimed "Liberals" that seem to ignore any Islam affiliated atrocities. I have noticed this tremendously over the years. I am always willing to give people the benefit of the doubt but I have seen it many times over the years. I will confirm that it has indeed gotten better, though. In my mind all religions are worthy of equal scrutiny and they do not belong in the 21st century. And what happens if someone gets offended? Too fucking bad, go take a pill.
It might be that it's just the atheists you hear from who are bitching about christianity. Most likely because they all live where christianity is the dominant religion and that is their frame of reference. I'd guess atheists who live where islam is dominant keep a pretty low profile. Then I reckon there are some who don't want to seem like they're judging other cultures and being politically incorrect. I'd imagine that an atheist from a muslim country would give you an earful about how shitty islam is if given the chance.
The problem with atheists in Muslim countries is that they loose their heads. :shock: 8-[ :-$ :roll: Solitary
Quote from: "Solitary"The problem with atheists in Muslim countries is that they loose their heads. :shock: 8-[ :-$ :roll: Solitary
There are 13 Islamic countries that have the death penalty for atheists.
Islam is at the top of my list for religions to be criticised because of the death penalty for apostasy and blasphemy, if muslims cannot leave it or criticise it how can it be reformed?
Dear Ex Muslims,
I support you completely. the trouble is many atheists are obsessed with leftist politics and whilst islam is publicly opposed to the USA they will look the other way.
WHilst christianity certainly executed apostates it never had the same attitude to Women that islam has. this is what we are dealingt with..people who will go to any extent to excuse Islam.
Islam is destroying my own country. The progressives look the other way because my country is an ally of the USA.
Yes, all us atheist simply ignoring Islam; Isn't it amazing that the likes Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris never got around to writing/saying a single negative thing about Islam.
Seriously though, of course the average atheist living in the west or going to be more focused on the religion(s) that they came out of, that negatively impact his/her live and that can be more easily contend against by him/her.
Dear ex-Muslims, you've already got 2 billion christians waging holy war on islam, do you really need the handful of us to come help out as well?
Quote from: "Poison Tree"Yes, all us atheist simply ignoring Islam; Isn't it amazing that the likes Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris never got around to writing/saying a single negative thing about Islam.
Seriously though, of course the average atheist living in the west or going to be more focused on the religion(s) that they came out of, that negatively impact his/her live and that can be more easily contend against by him/her.
What do you mean 'us atheists' no I mean you atheists who are leftists. I am an atheist of the centre. In My country of Birth Muslims are homicidal bastards. in the Uk, my country of adoption Muslims ,even though they are a small minoirty, are homidical bastards. because they hate the USA leftists love them.
the lft happily turned on Dawkins and Hitchens too even though Hitchens came from the left.
Quote from: "Solitary"The problem with atheists in Muslim countries is that they loose their heads. :shock: 8-[ :-$ :roll: Solitary
Wheres me head! :shock:
Luckily, i can still type without my head. This proves that souls actually exist. I mean i am typing without my brain because my brain is in my head.
It proves k0ran is correct.
All hail spaghetti monster and Mo!
Quote from: "frosty"There is definitely a noticeable bias among Atheists and self proclaimed "Liberals" that seem to ignore any Islam affiliated atrocities.
No bias, just resignation to the fact that it is impossible in their communities and countries to bring any change due to the domination of the religious leaders.
Quote from: "frosty"There is definitely a noticeable bias among Atheists and self proclaimed "Liberals" that seem to ignore any Islam affiliated atrocities. I have noticed this tremendously over the years..
I think that might be true to an extent for Liberals, but I'm not seeing the same thing among atheists. What I'm seeing is that atheists think Islam is as naïve as Christianity, but more violent. There is the occasional atheist that defends some Muslims when they are stereotyped as all violent. There's no question Islam is a violent religion. But not all Muslims are violent. Brainwashed beyond help maybe, but not necessarily violent. Nor do they openly point out Islam's faults. But that might be because they fear the violence will be brought to them. Or it might be that, like Christians, they only see what they want to see about their religion.
At least that's what I see in the atheist community.
Quote from: "frosty"There is definitely a noticeable bias among Atheists and self proclaimed "Liberals" that seem to ignore any Islam affiliated atrocities. I have noticed this tremendously over the years. I am always willing to give people the benefit of the doubt but I have seen it many times over the years. I will confirm that it has indeed gotten better, though. In my mind all religions are worthy of equal scrutiny and they do not belong in the 21st century. And what happens if someone gets offended? Too fucking bad, go take a pill.
I'd be interested in an example of atheists (not a proper noun, doesn't need to be capitalized) and self-proclaimed "liberals" (ditto, and I assume from the scare quotes that the people you're referring to are not people you regard as actual liberals, so it's unclear who you're actually talking about) ignoring an Islam-affiliated atrocity. It's not as obvious to me as to you, so maybe you can point me in the right direction.
TIA: I do not consider myself to be a liberal.
Quote from: "baronvonrort"A review of this article from the Council of ex muslims here-
//http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22897.0
Death for apostasy is a violation of article 18 of the Universal declaration of human rights, Islam is not compatible with human rights.
What's the difference between ex-muslims and atheists?
Quote from: "Mister Agenda"Quote from: "frosty"There is definitely a noticeable bias among Atheists and self proclaimed "Liberals" that seem to ignore any Islam affiliated atrocities. I have noticed this tremendously over the years. I am always willing to give people the benefit of the doubt but I have seen it many times over the years. I will confirm that it has indeed gotten better, though. In my mind all religions are worthy of equal scrutiny and they do not belong in the 21st century. And what happens if someone gets offended? Too fucking bad, go take a pill.
I'd be interested in an example of atheists (not a proper noun, doesn't need to be capitalized) and self-proclaimed "liberals" (ditto, and I assume from the scare quotes that the people you're referring to are not people you regard as actual liberals, so it's unclear who you're actually talking about) ignoring an Islam-affiliated atrocity. It's not as obvious to me as to you, so maybe you can point me in the right direction.
TIA: I do not consider myself to be a liberal.
I'm not a liberal either. Like I said it is accumulated knowledge from experiences over the years. I believe I made that clear but I guess not. It's not something I can copypasta here, it derives from personal experiences, not in links readily available on the web. Another thing, is I tend to forget most people I communicate with on the Internet rather easily, along with having a short memory span when it comes to reading news articles (because I read so many). I wouldn't doubt there being certain organizations affiliated with the left that do such things, but I'm not sure what to search to find such things - and to be honest I view such things as behind me anyways, if that makes any sense.
The people I refer to as "liberals" I do so because they themselves referred to themselves as such. Not me, them. And I capitalize Atheist, because I am accustomed to dealing with religious people that lowercase "atheist" and then uppercase the first letter of their faith as an insult to Atheists. It is subconscious, not sure why that matters though? Perhaps I am asking a rhetorical question.
I agree Islam is probably the worse religion right now , it's very dangerous.
Quote from: "frosty"I'm not a liberal either. Like I said it is accumulated knowledge from experiences over the years. I believe I made that clear but I guess not. It's not something I can copypasta here, it derives from personal experiences, not in links readily available on the web. Another thing, is I tend to forget most people I communicate with on the Internet rather easily, along with having a short memory span when it comes to reading news articles (because I read so many). I wouldn't doubt there being certain organizations affiliated with the left that do such things, but I'm not sure what to search to find such things - and to be honest I view such things as behind me anyways, if that makes any sense.
So you're just sharing a general impression that you have, not making a claim about the actual state of affairs. No worries, sometimes that's all we have to go on. Given the difficulty of proving the negative (ignoring something is not paying attention to it, and how do you go about showing a demographic is not paying attention to something?) it was a tall order in any case.
Quote from: "frosty"The people I refer to as "liberals" I do so because they themselves referred to themselves as such. Not me, them.
So you don't believe their claim that they are liberals? That's what the scare quotes seem to indicate. If you don't believe they are liberals, what do you think they are?
Quote from: "frosty"And I capitalize Atheist, because I am accustomed to dealing with religious people that lowercase "atheist" and then uppercase the first letter of their faith as an insult to Atheists.
Not everything is about us. It is proper English to capitalize Christianity, Hinduism, or Islam, so I doubt the purpose of doing so is to insult atheists. One shouldn't capitalize atheism or theism except at the beginning of a sentence or as part of a proper name, like National Atheist Society.
Quote from: "frosty"It is subconscious, not sure why that matters though? Perhaps I am asking a rhetorical question.
It only matters if you care about using proper capitalization. It's your priviledge to break conventions, particularly if you are doing so deliberately. My memory is also fairly faulty, if I comment on your capitalization in future, it doesn't mean I'm nagging you, it just means I've forgotten I already mentioned it.
I didn't realize my own personal experiences would be taken upon such an exception by a fellow forum user to initiate multi-quote replies. Like I said for the 3rd time now, they themselves said they were Liberals. Do I think they were liberals? I'm not one myself so I can't say 100 percent. In my opinion, though, a liberal should not criticize other dogmatic ideologies yet completely be subjected to the sensitivities of one particular one, and then insult others that criticize the one religion that dare not be criticized. I dunno, maybe other people have an idea of what it means to be a "liberal" but to me that certainly should not be it. If other people think serving Islam means being a Liberal then whatever floats their boat I guess, right?
As for the capitalization...... yes, it was meant as insult, particularly when the Theists themselves said it was insult. I have made it abundantly clear that what I said is based off personal experiences, I'm not sure why you are taking such an exception to it. I didn't want to multi-quote back because to be honest I don't care that much about this topic to be honest, I've learned myself to rise above such behavior of what I was subjected to before, which is dirty political name calling and entrenchment in ideologies. I don't know why I have to explain myself to you of all people.
Quote from: "aileron"Agreed. As practiced today, Islam is by far the worst of the major religions. Christianity is no better; it's just held in check by science and secular power in the West.
And we want to keep it that way.
Quote from: "aileron"When Christianity had the power Islam does today, it killed for apostasy and treated women as property too.
This is why we need to not get distracted by Islam. Yeah, we'll give Islam the attention we can spare, but Christianity is far from broken.
:popcorn: Solitary
Quote from: "Solitary":popcorn: Solitary
You seem to really enjoy popcorn, Solitary. In fact in a lot of threads like this you are eating popcorn. Personally I would get sick of it fast, movie popcorn has always made me feel sick when I eat too much.
There are several reasons why I tend to criticize Christianity more often that Islam.
First, I know more about Christianity than I do about Islam. I've read the Bible; I haven't read the Koran. I know that Islam is nonsense, because it is a theistic religion and it promotes violence. Other than that, I can't speak authoritatively.
It's usually Christians who come to this and other forums spouting their religious tripe. If a Muslim got on and started preaching, I suspect he would be met with the same vigor as a Christian.
In the US, it's not Muslims who are trying to enact laws that enforce their religious prejudice, it's the Christians, so they are the obvious targets.
When Islam becomes more wide-spread in the US, and I read the Koran, I'll start criticizing Islam.
Frank
Quote from: "frosty"I didn't realize my own personal experiences would be taken upon such an exception by a fellow forum user to initiate multi-quote replies.
I haven't taken exception to them, I'm still trying to comprehend them. I initiate multi-quote replies so that my answer will be below the portion of your statement I am replying to. Making shorter statements will nullify this habit.
Quote from: "frosty"Like I said for the 3rd time now, they themselves said they were Liberals. Do I think they were liberals? I'm not one myself so I can't say 100 percent. In my opinion, though, a liberal should not criticize other dogmatic ideologies yet completely be subjected to the sensitivities of one particular one, and then insult others that criticize the one religion that dare not be criticized. I dunno, maybe other people have an idea of what it means to be a "liberal" but to me that certainly should not be it. If other people think serving Islam means being a Liberal then whatever floats their boat I guess, right?
You don't need to tell me a fourth time that they've said they were liberals. What I was trying to figure out is why you put the word 'liberals' in scare quotes as though you don't believe they're liberals. You've now answered my question, thank you. I don't know any people who think serving Islam means being a liberal.
Quote from: "frosty"As for the capitalization...... yes, it was meant as insult, particularly when the Theists themselves said it was insult.
Any theist who told you that using proper capitalization on you is an insult was being idiotic, at best. And you needn't capitalize theist.
Quote from: "frosty"I have made it abundantly clear that what I said is based off personal experiences, I'm not sure why you are taking such an exception to it. I didn't want to multi-quote back because to be honest I don't care that much about this topic to be honest, I've learned myself to rise above such behavior of what I was subjected to before, which is dirty political name calling and entrenchment in ideologies. I don't know why I have to explain myself to you of all people.
The only motive I can see for why you might feel you have to explain yourself to me is that you want me to understand what you're talking about. I haven't taken exception to anything you've said, I've only asked you to explain what you meant, plus a side trip into the rules of capitalization. If it pains you to answer me, just don't. I'm not the sort to nag you for a reply.
Quote from: "Mister Agenda"You don't need to tell me a fourth time that they've said they were liberals. What I was trying to figure out is why you put the word 'liberals' in scare quotes as though you don't believe they're liberals. You've now answered my question, thank you. I don't know any people who think serving Islam means being a liberal.
I believed I had answered it to what I thought was truly the case. People who are liberals, at least from what I've seen, don't bash every other ideology except for Islam. That is just ridiculous. For them to do that then call themselves 'liberals' is almost like an insult to rationality everywhere. You may not know any people who think serving Islam means being a liberal, but I've encountered them before. Like I said, whatever floats their boat, I can't stop them nor do I at the end of the day give a shit what they do with their Internet lives.
QuoteAny theist who told you that using proper capitalization on you is an insult was being idiotic, at best. And you needn't capitalize theist.
I have faded memories of them being rather annoying to deal with and accusing me of this and that blah blah blah. They were rather petty people to dish out insults based on capitalization I think.
QuoteThe only motive I can see for why you might feel you have to explain yourself to me is that you want me to understand what you're talking about. I haven't taken exception to anything you've said, I've only asked you to explain what you meant, plus a side trip into the rules of capitalization. If it pains you to answer me, just don't. I'm not the sort to nag you for a reply.
To be honest I just don't get why you are taking such an interest into what I have to say here. My first post was meant as somewhat of a reflection/statement, I didn't expect you to delve into the topic of me arguing with a bunch of random fucktards anywhere from 2-5 years ago.
QuoteIf a Muslim got on and started preaching, I suspect he would be met with the same vigor as a Christian.
Yeah, I've seen it happen a few times :) They get blasted down like any other.
It is true that ex-muslims need more support than the rest. They face the issue of legal death sentence and death threats from Islamic groups in non-muslim countries. we have been focusing too much on Christianity because we were raised in a Christian background. It is time that we took Islam seriously, since its also the largest spreading religion in the world.
The only way Western atheists are going to be able to help is if Europe does something. American atheists have zero power to get America to intervene in any way.
I can't help but wonder if the "ex-Muslims" are really ex-Muslims or people who hate Islam and are perpetrating a scam.
That is not to say that Islam doesn't have many faults.
> I can't help but wonder if the "ex-Muslims" are really ex-Muslims or people who hate Islam and are perpetrating a scam.
It's difficult to tell what a person really believes based on what he says. There are many people who claim to be Christian, but don't act in ways that a Christian would act.
Frank
I hate Islam just as much as all the other religions, if not more, but I generally am never confronted by it where I live. I've got my hands full with the Mormons and Jehovah's Witness's in the NW, and the only Muslim I know is very civil and almost never talks about her religion, so I don't feel the need to bring it up.
Honestly though, as much as I feel for the oppressed in the East, we still have to deal with the oppressed in the west first. One thing at a time. And who knows who long it will take to whittle Christianity down to a manageable size.
I will gladly shit on muslims as readily as xtians. There are simply more targets with crosses than flying carpets.
People who speak out against christians run the risk of being ostracized by their christian friends and family members. People who speak out against islam run the risk of being killed. I would imagine that difference has something to do with the number of people willing to speak out against one vs the other.
Islam needs to be put on a leash like western culture did with Christianity (yeah, I know they're terrible but they could be so much worse. We have them on a leash, and we're tightening that leash year by year). Unfortunately that would require a renaissance in the Islamic world, and I don't see that being done any time soon without a lot of deaths. Otherwise we're just going to have to wait for outside ideas to slowly work their way in.
As per Islam in the western world, we need to put our foot down and make sure they know in no uncertain terms what is and is not acceptable. We can do this without resorting to the far right, we just need to not be afraid to call them out on their shit every time they fuck up.
Someone prints an image of Muhammad and they issue death threats? Arrest those who issued death threats and put the person who was threatened under protective custody, but most importantly absolutely refuse to apologize in any way. Explain that sometimes free speech is offensive, and they'll have to deal with it like adults if they want the benefits of society.
Quote from: "The Skeletal Atheist"I
Someone prints an image of Muhammad and they issue death threats? Arrest those who issued death threats and put the person who was threatened under protective custody, but most importantly absolutely refuse to apologize in any way. Explain that sometimes free speech is offensive, and they'll have to deal with it like adults if they want the benefits of society.
As my dad used to say, you tell them, I stutter. You need to remember these death threats and fatwas generally are not issued by those residing in the US or nations that would be likely to extradite. So the prospect of finding and arresting those who issue such things kind of creates a foreign relations 'difficulty' and opening that can of worms will lead to tons more bodies piling up than have been produced by all the fatwas ever issued.
I meant arresting those residing in western countries, I guess I should have specified that. Understandably a lot of the death threats will come from outside the country, that's why we have to put the person in protective custody. Mainly we need to not apologize for free speech. The individual can apologize, if they wish, but no government should apologize for letting people speak their minds.
Quote from: "vacillating"I can't help but wonder if the "ex-Muslims" are really ex-Muslims or people who hate Islam and are perpetrating a scam.
That is not to say that Islam doesn't have many faults.
More likely than you probably think. (//http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Yahiye_Gadahn)
I personally have not met any radical Muslim yet (Fortunately) and of course I doubt I ever will in the US. There's a reason y they came to this country on the first place. An Iranian Muslim I met told me himself that the reason he came to live in the US is cause he is against stunning, which Ia still practiced in Iran, and having 2 daughters, he felt responsible for their well being and decided to move his whole family to the US. They are still Muslims, but they have their disagreements with how their country approaches the Koran.
Quote from: "vacillating"I can't help but wonder if the "ex-Muslims" are really ex-Muslims or people who hate Islam and are perpetrating a scam.
The Christians over here also often accuse us atheists whenever their religion being criticized. They accuse us as a Muslim who wants to ruffle their feathers. It's somewhat funny thinking how their logic works. I mean, if we criticize a Muslim, suddenly they accuse us as a Right Wing bigots but when we criticize Christians here in Indonesia, we're accused as Muslim assholes. I mean, really? :roll: :roll:
Quote from: "The Skeletal Atheist"I meant arresting those residing in western countries, I guess I should have specified that. Understandably a lot of the death threats will come from outside the country, that's why we have to put the person in protective custody. Mainly we need to not apologize for free speech.
The problem is putting someone in protective custody doesn't accomplish that. Putting someone in protective custody is still putting them in custody. SUch an individual would no longer be able to live a normal life and in many cases would no longer be able to earn a living in the same field they previously worked in. IOW their life as they know it would have to end. And ending the person's life is the goal of the death threat so we would essentially accomplish nothing.
Islam has a hell of a lot more problems than whether atheists are allowed or not. Sunni's and Sheites might just end up killing each other off. Islam infighting is a much bigger problem..Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, N Africa, etc.. It's getting ugly there..
Quote from: "frosty"There is definitely a noticeable bias among Atheists and self proclaimed "Liberals" that seem to ignore any Islam affiliated atrocities. I have noticed this tremendously over the years. I am always willing to give people the benefit of the doubt but I have seen it many times over the years.
Yes, I noticed too.
I think the problem a lot of atheists have (and let's be honest, it's mostly left-wing atheists) is that they're just far too biased against religion in general to see any nuances at all, so they think that anyone who singles out Islam as the most intolerant religion (which it is) has some secret racist agenda masked as criticism of Islam.
I think it's has to be said, no, all religions are not equal. They have different doctrines with different consequences.
Christianity does not have a doctrine of perpetual warfare against all unbelievers, there is nothing like verse 9:29 that mainstream Christians consider binding. The Old Convenant seems a bit like Sharia law but it's largely irrelevant even in mainstream Judaism. Christianity does not have a comprehensive set of laws used to govern society. Islam does, hence why it's more theocratic and why Muslim majority countries struggle with secular democracy more than Christian ones (though it's not entirely impossible if you consider secular Turkey). Manuals of Islamic law from all the major schools regulate business, family life, domestic and foreign policy in enough detail to constitute a political theocratic ideology and not merely a religion. It's certainly a tougher beast to tame.
And atheists who don't understand this and insist that "GRR RELIGION BAD ATHEIST SMASH RELIGION!" will be laughed at by Christians, Muslims and even other atheists who see through the false equivalence.
> Yes, I noticed too.
Do you have any evidence to support that? I have never seen any reluctance on the part of atheists to criticize Islam, except maybe for the death threat thing. Most of the posters here are in Christian countries, and except for flying airplanes into buildings, the big threat at home comes from Christians. And the theists who post here are mostly Christians.
> I think the problem a lot of atheists have (and let's be honest, it's mostly left-wing atheists) is that they're just far too biased against religion in general to see any nuances at all, so they think that anyone who singles out Islam as the most intolerant religion (which it is) has some secret racist agenda masked as criticism of Islam.
Do you have any evidence for the inability or unwillingness of atheists to perceive a difference among religions? Also, the notion that someone who is against Islam is racist is nonsense. Islam is a religion, not a race. I believe most atheists understand that. Most Christians, however, do not. Consider the death threats directed at this year's Miss America, who is of Indian descent.
> I think it's has to be said, no, all religions are not equal. They have different doctrines with different consequences.
Your claim seems to be that atheists don't agree with that. Do you have examples or evidence? All the atheists I know understand it very well.
> Christianity does not have a doctrine of perpetual warfare against all unbelievers, there is nothing like verse 9:29 that mainstream Christians consider binding. The Old Convenant seems a bit like Sharia law but it's largely irrelevant even in mainstream Judaism. Christianity does not have a comprehensive set of laws used to govern society. Islam does, hence why it's more theocratic and why Muslim majority countries struggle with secular democracy more than Christian ones (though it's not entirely impossible if you consider secular Turkey). Manuals of Islamic law from all the major schools regulate business, family life, domestic and foreign policy in enough detail to constitute a political theocratic ideology and not merely a religion. It's certainly a tougher beast to tame.
There is some truth to that, and some falsehood. Many Christians believe that they have a comprehensive set of laws to govern society. (Google "dominionists.") I agree that they don't, to the extent that Islam does, but they seem to believe it, anyway. They are making a big political push to dominate the US, and are having some success.
Islam is a mix of religion and politics, but so was Christianity a thousand years ago. And the dominionists would like it to become so again. Polls in the US show that fundamentalist Christians tend to vote as a block, and they tend to vote for right-wingers.
> And atheists who don't understand this and insist that "GRR RELIGION BAD ATHEIST SMASH RELIGION!" will be laughed at by Christians, Muslims and even other atheists who see through the false equivalence.
Do you have examples of atheists who don't understand that?
Your basic claim is false. As Islam becomes more of a threat in western culture, you will see atheists becoming more vocal against it. At the moment, we know it's a stupid, violent religion, but the violence is a long way from Kansas.
Frank
My experience with other atheists comes from encounters on other forums or YouTube channels. I haven't kept records, but I'll try to find an example soon.
Regarding dominionists, they don't appear to be significant in number at all and seem to be even rarer outside the US. Plus I've never actually seen a society governed in that way or similar way in recent times. (Even in the Middle Ages they never completely followed everything in the Old Testament.) Sharia regimes are plenty however.
> My experience with other atheists comes from encounters on other forums or YouTube channels. I haven't kept records, but I'll try to find an example soon.
Your experience could be different from mine. It's possible that some atheists are inclined to give Islam a pass, but the most vocal don't. Look at Bill Maher's take on Islam, or Christopher Hitchens', or Richard Dawkins.
> Regarding dominionists, they don't appear to be significant in number at all and seem to be even rarer outside the US. Plus I've never actually seen a society governed in that way or similar way in recent times. Sharia regimes are plenty however.
Dominionists had power disproportionate to their numbers; however, that seems to be abating a bit. And calls for Sharia law in countries with many Muslim immigrants are becoming more strident.
But I still think their religion is stupid.
Frank
It was George W. Bush who said, "Islam is peace."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_ZoroJdVnA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_ZoroJdVnA)
He's neither an atheist nor a liberal. Well, he may be an atheist, but he claims to be a Christian.
Frank
Quote from: "FrankDK"Your experience could be different from mine. It's possible that some atheists are inclined to give Islam a pass, but the most vocal don't. Look at Bill Maher's take on Islam, or Christopher Hitchens', or Richard Dawkins.
Now that you mention it, I do recall an article written by a liberal (don't know if atheist or not) that condemned Dawkins for "flirting with Islamophobia" whatever that means.
Yes, I'm aware Bush said that, the right isn't completely immune from this foolishness either. However I've also seen that a lot of critics of Islam (whether they are accurate or not) tend to come from right-wing circles. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the pattern I have seen so far.
This partisan talk when it comes to criticizing dangerous mythological beliefs is saddening. Like I've said before, and I'll say again, EVERY religion can and must be criticized and if anyone has a problem with that then they can just go fuck off somewhere else.
And yes, I am also qualified to, from time to time, criticize and maybe even bash the followers of certain religions for the actions they commit. You don't give your child proper cancer treatment and rely on "faith"? I'm going to get angry and call you a shitface. You blow yourself up on a train full of people in the name of Islam? Yep, I'm going to call you a piece of shit and get angry too. You don't like it, click whatever 'exit' button your browser uses.
I've seen it said here that we should not criticize the followers of a religion, but the religion itself. That would only be true if religion was not a human creation and therefore animated by it's followers, and henceforth the followers of religion are the ones who feel inclined to act as foot soldiers for their designated beliefs. Why should we give people a free pass and not criticize them? They should be able to think for themselves, no?
I haven't seen a single instance of liberals defending the violence and oppression committed by Islamic fundamentalists.
The main objections I've seen among liberals are aimed at Islamophobia: the portrayal of all Muslims as an evil, dehumanized "other", and the spread of misinformation that often accompanies such bigotry. I, for one, have met, interacted with and befriended many non-violent, decent, peaceful Muslims, and I do not deserve to be tarred with the "all Muslims are evil" brush.
I have also seen liberals mention that they understand the concept of "blowback": if A hits B, then expect B to hit A. It's not surprising that, say, a group of Palestinians might strike back at Israel in response to the violence and oppression that Israel has directed toward the Palestinians. This is in no way a defense of such violence: liberals condemn the violence on both sides, but we recognize that violence breeds violence, and the way to stop it is to break the cycle of attack and counterattack.
Quote from: "Atheon"I haven't seen a single instance of liberals defending the violence and oppression committed by Islamic fundamentalists.
The main objections I've seen among liberals are aimed at Islamophobia: the portrayal of all Muslims as an evil, dehumanized "other", and the spread of misinformation that often accompanies such bigotry. I, for one, have met, interacted with and befriended many non-violent, decent, peaceful Muslims, and I do not deserve to be tarred with the "all Muslims are evil" brush.
The problem is that while not all Muslims are violent or want to subjugate others, the Islamic doctrine is violent and calls for the subjugation of others in various ways. It's also true that you don't need to say that "all Muslims are X" to be accused of "Islamophobia", you don't need need to say that percentage A of Muslims are violent/supremacist. There's a much broader definition that includes things like:
Quote1. Islam is seen as a monolithic bloc, static and unresponsive to change.
2. It is seen as separate and "other." It does not have values in common with other cultures, is not affected by them and does not influence them.
3. It is seen as inferior to the West. It is seen as barbaric, irrational, primitive, and sexist.
4. It is seen as violent, aggressive, threatening, supportive of terrorism, and engaged in a clash of civilizations.
5. It is seen as a political ideology, used for political or military advantage.
6. Criticisms made of "the West" by Muslims are rejected out of hand.
7. Hostility towards Islam is used to justify discriminatory practices towards Muslims and exclusion of Muslims from mainstream society.
8. Anti-Muslim hostility is seen as natural and normal.
1-5 say absolutely nothing about Muslims, just Islam. (This list is from Runnymede Trust, which by the way is left-wing.)
Number 1 is meaningless. Of course it's not a monolith, neither was communism a monolith for that matter but we can criticize it. It is a deceptive point designed to create the illusion that Islam is basically anything people want it to be regardless of what the theology says so it's irrational to fear it: it can be both a religion of peace and war, it can be both pro and anti-democracy, it can be both sexist and pro-gender equality, it can be both progressive and regressive, and that's just a load of nonsense designed to shield it from criticism.
Quote from: "Atheon"I have also seen liberals mention that they understand the concept of "blowback": if A hits B, then expect B to hit A. It's not surprising that, say, a group of Palestinians might strike back at Israel in response to the violence and oppression that Israel has directed toward the Palestinians. This is in no way a defense of such violence: liberals condemn the violence on both sides, but we recognize that violence breeds violence, and the way to stop it is to break the cycle of attack and counterattack.
It's easy to say that, unfortunately you're going to have a very very hard time convincing the Palestinian leaders to make any genuine compromise. You're underestimating the deep ideological barrier to peace.
http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Hamas- ... ada-327202 (http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Hamas-Islamic-Jihad-call-for-a-third-intifada-327202)
QuoteA new intifada should erupt against the Zionist enemy and we believe that our people have the will and ability to liberate Palestine from the river to the sea,
Palestinian leaders also routinely claim that a Palestinian state would just be a stepping stone to the "complete liberation of Palestine". So even if Israel left them alone, they still wouldn't be happy until its complete abolition. Its very existence is regarded as an act of aggression.
This view by the way isn't limited to Palestinian Muslims. You will find devout Muslims all over the world who hate Israel and the reason is that it was once territory under Islamic rule. Don't underestimate the solidarity of the "Ummah". Bin Laden and Anjem Choudary are both non-Palestinian for example yet they supported attacks on the US (in part) due to its support for Israel which the think should be abolished. Iranian leaders aren't even Sunni, Iran has never been under Israeli occupation, yet they support the abolition of Israel. All of Israel's Muslim neighbors declared war on Israel the moment it was established as a state in 1948. The more extreme a Muslim is the more likely he is to also hate Spain or the Balkans which are in a similar situation of being territories formerly under Islamic hegemony. You should check out that interview with Omar Bakri.
Quote from: "VladK"Quote from: "frosty"There is definitely a noticeable bias among Atheists and self proclaimed "Liberals" that seem to ignore any Islam affiliated atrocities. I have noticed this tremendously over the years. I am always willing to give people the benefit of the doubt but I have seen it many times over the years.
Yes, I noticed too.
I think the problem a lot of atheists have (and let's be honest, it's mostly left-wing atheists) is that they're just far too biased against religion in general to see any nuances at all, so they think that anyone who singles out Islam as the most intolerant religion (which it is) has some secret racist agenda masked as criticism of Islam.
I think it's has to be said, no, all religions are not equal. They have different doctrines with different consequences.
Christianity does not have a doctrine of perpetual warfare against all unbelievers, there is nothing like verse 9:29 that mainstream Christians consider binding. The Old Convenant seems a bit like Sharia law but it's largely irrelevant even in mainstream Judaism. Christianity does not have a comprehensive set of laws used to govern society. Islam does, hence why it's more theocratic and why Muslim majority countries struggle with secular democracy more than Christian ones (though it's not entirely impossible if you consider secular Turkey). Manuals of Islamic law from all the major schools regulate business, family life, domestic and foreign policy in enough detail to constitute a political theocratic ideology and not merely a religion. It's certainly a tougher beast to tame.
And atheists who don't understand this and insist that "GRR RELIGION BAD ATHEIST SMASH RELIGION!" will be laughed at by Christians, Muslims and even other atheists who see through the false equivalence.
I dare you to be more wrong.
Quote from: "VladK"My experience with other atheists comes from encounters on other forums or YouTube channels. I haven't kept records, but I'll try to find an example soon.
Regarding dominionists, they don't appear to be significant in number at all and seem to be even rarer outside the US. Plus I've never actually seen a society governed in that way or similar way in recent times. (Even in the Middle Ages they never completely followed everything in the Old Testament.) Sharia regimes are plenty however.
This forum is full of atheists. If your thesis is true, you should be able to find your examples here rather than have to search the internet for them.
You just said "I dare you to be more wrong..." so do you disagree with the statement that:
QuoteChristianity does not have a doctrine of perpetual warfare against all unbelievers, there is nothing like verse 9:29 that mainstream Christians consider binding. The Old Convenant seems a bit like Sharia law but it's largely irrelevant even in mainstream Judaism. Christianity does not have a comprehensive set of laws used to govern society. Islam does, hence why it's more theocratic and why Muslim majority countries struggle with secular democracy more than Christian ones (though it's not entirely impossible if you consider secular Turkey). Manuals of Islamic law from all the major schools regulate business, family life, domestic and foreign policy in enough detail to constitute a political theocratic ideology and not merely a religion. It's certainly a tougher beast to tame.
If so, to what extent?
QuoteThis forum is full of atheists. If your thesis is true, you should be able to find your examples here rather than have to search the internet for them.
Do you believe that Christianity and Islam are roughly the same in their capacity to inspire violence, theocracy or subjugation? If your answer is yes, then you're certainly one of them.
If you need off-site examples, the Atheism+ forum is a good place to start. I'm not going to give names, but there was even one guy there (moderator in fact) who said that all Abrahamic faiths are basically the same and it's unfair to single out one. I also seem to recall BionicDance, a YouTuber, making similar points.
I still don't understand why there seems to be some type of mental blockage here. One loose group of Atheists are trying to tell the other loose group of Atheists that Islam should be criticized like any other religion, and Muslims should not be exempt from criticism, and the second loose group of Atheists seem to be for the most part unbend-able to that idea.
I've learned to accept over the years even if someone is an Atheist, they can still be a nuisance on the Internet. I learned to rise above the stupidity I saw from years of Internet squabbling, but now I see the same "omg don't insult Islam guyz" concept pushing through here and it's frustrating. It's frustrating, it's stagnant, it's pathetic, and for some reason there is a false equation that just because someone insults Islam they are a right winger. I am the farthest away from the right wing in my own right as I can be, and I just don't fucking understand why people defend Islam and Muslims so much.
I ain't nobody's sympathizer. I criticize ALL RELIGIONS, and if someone has a problem with me calling out Muslims and Islam then they are not true freethinkers.
Quote from: "frosty"I still don't understand why there seems to be some type of mental blockage here. One loose group of Atheists are trying to tell the other loose group of Atheists that Islam should be criticized like any other religion, and Muslims should not be exempt from criticism, and the second loose group of Atheists seem to be for the most part unbend-able to that idea.
I've learned to accept over the years even if someone is an Atheist, they can still be a nuisance on the Internet. I learned to rise above the stupidity I saw from years of Internet squabbling, but now I see the same "omg don't insult Islam guyz" concept pushing through here and it's frustrating. It's frustrating, it's stagnant, it's pathetic, and for some reason there is a false equation that just because someone insults Islam they are a right winger. I am the farthest away from the right wing in my own right as I can be, and I just don't fucking understand why people defend Islam and Muslims so much.
I ain't nobody's sympathizer. I criticize ALL RELIGIONS, and if someone has a problem with me calling out Muslims and Islam then they are not true freethinkers.
Oh, trust me I know how that feels. ](*,)
Here's an example of liberal being Islamo
philic.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/craig-con ... 25981.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/craig-considine/what-studying-muhammad-ta_b_4625981.html)
QuoteMuhammad's beliefs on how to treat religious minorities make him a universal champion of human rights
QuoteMy research has also highlighted how Muhammad had similar beliefs to that of George Washington, a key founding father of America.
Dawkins and others attacked for "Islamophobia":
http://www.salon.com/2013/03/30/dawkins ... amophobia/ (http://www.salon.com/2013/03/30/dawkins_harris_hitchens_new_atheists_flirt_with_islamophobia/)
I still can't quite tell if these people are naive useful idiots or malicious liars. In any case this faulty view of Islam being pro-human rights or being similar to American values can have immense consequences culturally, politically, especially in foreign policy, including in the "War on Terror".
I wonder what would have been the outcome of the Cold War if the US had pursued a policy based on the belief that Marxism was pro-religious freedom and shared the same values as George Washington's or that it was being "hijacked by a tiny minority of extremists" who "twist" its peaceful and moderate teachings of equality and brotherhood.
How do you fix a problem that you won't admit exists?
Oh and I love how these people insist that "Islam is not a monolith" but then go on to present it as a monolith, just in a positive light.
In this case, I would go with the idiot theory.
The Salon article attacks atheists for not believing in gods, as well as Islamophobia. And one of the "most read" articles listed in the sidebar is titled, "A Ghost Ship Filled with Cannibal Rats may be Headed Straight towards Britain."
Yes, I'd go with "idiots."
Frank
Quote from: "VladK"Here's an example of liberal being Islamophilic.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/craig-con ... 25981.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/craig-considine/what-studying-muhammad-ta_b_4625981.html)
QuoteMuhammad's beliefs on how to treat religious minorities make him a universal champion of human rights
QuoteMy research has also highlighted how Muhammad had similar beliefs to that of George Washington, a key founding father of America.
Dawkins and others attacked for "Islamophobia":
http://www.salon.com/2013/03/30/dawkins ... amophobia/ (http://www.salon.com/2013/03/30/dawkins_harris_hitchens_new_atheists_flirt_with_islamophobia/)
I still can't quite tell if these people are naive useful idiots or malicious liars. In any case this faulty view of Islam being pro-human rights or being similar to American values can have immense consequences culturally, politically, especially in foreign policy, including in the "War on Terror".
How do you fix a problem that you won't admit exists?
Oh and I love how these people insist that "Islam is not a monolith" but then go on to present it as a monolith, just in a positive light.
The first article is written by a catholic who believes in fairy tales, as for that pedophile bastard unworthy human being a champion of human rights-
QuoteThe messenger of allah said-
I will expel the jews and christians from the Arabian peninsula and will not leave any but muslim.
//http://www.sunnah.com/muslim/32/75
The salon article is written by a muslim is the editor in chief of aslan media, which promotes that bullshit by the muslim Reza Aslan.
As for Islamophobia, there are 13 muslim countries that execute people for atheism, are the people who defend Islam delusional?
//http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/10/us-religion-atheists-idUSBRE9B900G20131210
Okay, but I said the first article was by a liberal, I didn't claim to know his religion or atheism. Anyway, both Salon and Huffington Post are liberal outlets, if Salon wants to promote Muslim apologists working for pseudo-moderate bosses, that's even worse. They might as well promote Fred Phelps and Rushdoony followers.
By the way, this Reza guy seems to have become a darling media. Saw him on Majority Report too and he wasn't invited to be criticized, more liberals (don't know if atheists, don't really care).
The problem is though is that you will hear the same old classic responses eventually - you are racist, you are trolling, you are a bigot, you are a right winger, you are a <insert typical Internet ad-hominem attack here> - and so forth. It seems like people just don't want to confront Islam or Muslims. Perhaps out of liberal bleeding heart syndrome, perhaps out of fear, but there will ALWAYS be self-righteous people on the Internet who attack people criticizing Holy Islam and Innocent Muslims and I don't think it's ever going to change.
I guess people need to exercise their White Knight syndrome sometime.
Reading the opinions here I'm slightly confused. In my experience atheists are more willing to criticize muslims than other religions rather than the other way around - and if you ask anyone on this forum I think you'll find them to agree that it's currently the worst major religion. I have therefor no clue where you get your premise that "atheists ignore muslim atrocities/want to give them a free pass, etc." from. I'm sure some do, but any kind of majority? Really?
Yeah Islamic extremism can be pretty bad. Fortunately most muslim people are accepting of others. its too bad that the extreme ones soil the name of the religion. Its also unfortunate that 9/11 happened. The US media over exaggerated the situation in my opinion. I'd say that around 1% of muslims are extremist, but thats only a guess :/
Quote from: "La Dolce Vita"Reading the opinions here I'm slightly confused. In my experience atheists are more willing to criticize muslims than other religions rather than the other way around - and if you ask anyone on this forum I think you'll find them to agree that it's currently the worst major religion. I have therefor no clue where you get your premise that "atheists ignore muslim atrocities/want to give them a free pass, etc." from. I'm sure some do, but any kind of majority? Really?
Then you must have had a drastically different experience than me - where I was attacked, over, I would say about 4 years, in a constant joint group dynamic of Muslims and Atheists. I just wanted to get involved in political and religious discussions, and what happened? So called "freethinkers" treated me with the utmost disrespect for even suggesting we should criticize Islam a fraction of how they do for Christianity. People are naturally spiteful; they don't forget such treatment very easily.
What's even worse is that there truly is some type of mental blockage with neo-Atheists, lets call them, who feel any religion except Islam can be criticized. You really shouldn't act so perplexed at what you are reading here, maybe if so many Atheists weren't such stupid fucktards when it came to the topic of Islam and Muslims then the posts you are questioning wouldn't exist in the first place.
Quote from: "MitchellDaBomb"I'd say that around 1% of muslims are extremist, but thats only a guess :/
It depends on your definition of extremist, i think those muslims who support death for apostasy and blasphemy are extremists.
The fairly recent Pew survey has the majority of muslims supporting for the death penalty for apostasy and blasphemy, i reckon it is extreme to kill someone because they dont believe in fairy tales or mock that stupid belief from the dark ages.
If muslims cannot leave or criticise Islam in many Islamic parts of the world without the threat of death how can Islam be reformed?
It is blasphemy to suggest Islam needs reforming they chop your head off for that.
The persecution of the Ahmadi muslims by mainstream Islam proves Islam is extreme and cannot be reformed.
Quote from: "frosty"Quote from: "La Dolce Vita"Reading the opinions here I'm slightly confused. In my experience atheists are more willing to criticize muslims than other religions rather than the other way around - and if you ask anyone on this forum I think you'll find them to agree that it's currently the worst major religion. I have therefor no clue where you get your premise that "atheists ignore muslim atrocities/want to give them a free pass, etc." from. I'm sure some do, but any kind of majority? Really?
Then you must have had a drastically different experience than me - where I was attacked, over, I would say about 4 years, in a constant joint group dynamic of Muslims and Atheists. I just wanted to get involved in political and religious discussions, and what happened? So called "freethinkers" treated me with the utmost disrespect for even suggesting we should criticize Islam a fraction of how they do for Christianity. People are naturally spiteful; they don't forget such treatment very easily.
What's even worse is that there truly is some type of mental blockage with neo-Atheists, lets call them, who feel any religion except Islam can be criticized. You really shouldn't act so perplexed at what you are reading here, maybe if so many Atheists weren't such stupid fucktards when it came to the topic of Islam and Muslims then the posts you are questioning wouldn't exist in the first place.
Can you find any examples of this at all on this forum? Not that I'm sure this is a good sample, but as the large majority, if not all the atheists here seem to consider Islam the worst current religion, it would be weird if it was exactly the opposite in practice.
Of course, I'm from Norway, where the majority is atheist/agnostic and christianity is primarily just fading away, and Islam therefor being the most vocal religion, causing tons of dislike for said religion. I know it's different in the US - but it does seem like a huge amount of the forum members are from the US ... so please, find any examples here. The big name atheists also go after Islam. Seen Dawkins or Harris speak about it? I have never really seen them get flack for this from other atheists.
First, regarding your 1 percent comment:
I think you are being extremely generous towards them. I've talked to a lot of Muslims that are quite militant in their outlook, and you know what they tell me? They say there is no such thing as moderate or extreme Islam; only the true Islam, and they strive every day to follow it. Being extreme or moderate is often a matter of perception; militant jihadists don't often think they are extreme, they believe that they themselves are humble, decent, honest people. But that is not what I was complaining about anyways.
You ask me to find examples from this forum, and even though I wasn't totally talking about this forum, I see such an exercise as futile. Why? Because nobody wants to admit they are an apologist or a stooge for a corrupt, Old World ideology. Calling people out will only cause denial and fights. The people on this forum, and the ones on the other sites that I had those experiences with, see themselves as being for "justice" and being "anti bigot", things like that. For some reason they think the spread of Muslims and Islam is "progressive", and "good", and they defend such an ideology and people because they see it as an extension of their so called "progressive" views.
It's all 'bout gettin dem der conservatives, ya C?
It's easy to continue to see people as apologising for a religion if you not only refuse to call them out, but have already declared them guilty of being apologists and see them defending their views as proof of that very guilt.
It's also complete bullshit, of course.
Quote from: "Plu"It's easy to continue to see people as apologising for a religion if you not only refuse to call them out, but have already declared them guilty of being apologists and see them defending their views as proof of that very guilt.
It's also complete bullshit, of course.
Thanks for proving my point. Seriously. It was that easy?
Lol.
Quote from: "Plu"Lol.
I really don't know what to say at this point, I could keep saying "you proved me right immediately" but then I risk a massive banhammer.
Quote from: "frosty"First, regarding your 1 percent comment:
I think you are being extremely generous towards them. I've talked to a lot of Muslims that are quite militant in their outlook, and you know what they tell me? They say there is no such thing as moderate or extreme Islam; only the true Islam, and they strive every day to follow it. Being extreme or moderate is often a matter of perception; militant jihadists don't often think they are extreme, they believe that they themselves are humble, decent, honest people. But that is not what I was complaining about anyways.
1. You are replying to two completely different people. But I suppose you know that, just a very odd way of replying to both of us. I guess I can comment on this as well by stating that I'd certainly assume more than 1% of muslims are extreme. I'd label anyone willing to kill for their religion, or find this ok, as extremists - and yes, these numbers are high, and scary.
2. Of course extremists say that there's only "True Islam", and of course extremists don't think of themselves as extreme. Christian extremists/fundamentalists will say the exact same thing. There are however legions of moderate muslims. Bringing out how Islam can't change and pointing out how certain parts of Islam reacts to Islam that has changed, is a paradox. The moment you are admitting that there are moderate muslims and versions of Islam that reads the text differently, you have lost your case about Islam being unchanging.
QuoteYou ask me to find examples from this forum, and even though I wasn't totally talking about this forum, I see such an exercise as futile. Why? Because nobody wants to admit they are an apologist or a stooge for a corrupt, Old World ideology. Calling people out will only cause denial and fights. The people on this forum, and the ones on the other sites that I had those experiences with, see themselves as being for "justice" and being "anti bigot", things like that. For some reason they think the spread of Muslims and Islam is "progressive", and "good", and they defend such an ideology and people because they see it as an extension of their so called "progressive" views.
It's all 'bout gettin dem der conservatives, ya C?
No, I do not see. You claimed that the majority of atheists want to give Islam a pass - but nothing indicates it. You have no evidence for this extreme claim - and when asked to find examples from this huge sample size you decline because the evidence seemingly don't exist? So because your evidence don't exist, you create a hypothesis to explain why your claim must still be true ... This is "logic" based on faith!
"Assume conclusion, ignore all contradictory evidence"
With you seemingly argueing that Islam cannot change, it is very likely that people who react to you have nothing against bashing Islam/Muslims, but point out when you are (potentially) talking unsupported and/or bigoted claims.
Really, you claim that the majority of atheists believe that the spreading of islam is progressive and good. That is insane. It is obviously progressive and good to allow islam to spread, as not allowing this would mean we live in a fascist society that dictates what thoughts are ok. Equally allowing nazism to spread is progressive and good. The crazy and evil ideologies speading is not good - but not convicting people for throught crimes is. I obviously don't know your history enough, and I don't want to imply you don't know the distinction if you do, but I have argued with many who don't - and if you do not understand the distinction that you could come to the absurd and undocumented beliefs you have.
I'm not sure what options remain to prove you are wrong about me, or I might try. It seems like you've found the perfect way to judge everyone in the world guilty at a whim.
But you know, if you give me a way to show you how I'm not the person you are imagining (I'm surprised you even imagine anything; I don't share that much about myself) I'll give it a shot. Right now you can just call everyone whatever you want, because any attempt to defend will prove your point, no attempt to defend will prove your point, and calling you out on a rather silly and unfalsifiable standard apparently also proves your point.
Plu, all you should need to say is: "Islam is currently (one of) the most harmful religion(s)", then you have bashed Islam, and even called it worse than the rest. If his claim is that you are one of the people who does not go after Islam like you do with other religions, he'd be demonstrated incorrect. Not sure if he'd care however. There seems to be a lot of blind faith here.
If that's all it takes Frosty just has to say so. But like you say, I don't think he cares. He seems to be operating in the religious order of actions; conclusions first, then seek evidence to support it.
Quote from: "frosty"I still don't understand why there seems to be some type of mental blockage here. One loose group of Atheists are trying to tell the other loose group of Atheists that Islam should be criticized like any other religion, and Muslims should not be exempt from criticism, and the second loose group of Atheists seem to be for the most part unbend-able to that idea.
Actually, it's one loose group of atheists trying to tell the other loose group of atheists that Islam should be criticized like any other religion while they criticize Islam in a different way from the way they criticize other religions. The first loose group of atheists seem unable to comprehend that criticizing the way they are critiquing Islam is not a defense of Islam, it's a defense of critical thought.
Quote from: "frosty"I've learned to accept over the years even if someone is an Atheist, they can still be a nuisance on the Internet. I learned to rise above the stupidity I saw from years of Internet squabbling, but now I see the same "omg don't insult Islam guyz" concept pushing through here and it's frustrating. It's frustrating, it's stagnant, it's pathetic, and for some reason there is a false equation that just because someone insults Islam they are a right winger. I am the farthest away from the right wing in my own right as I can be, and I just don't fucking understand why people defend Islam and Muslims so much.
Funny, I haven't seen ANY 'omg don't insult Ilam guyz'. I think you take any resistance to your ill-formed criticisms of Islam on the basis that they're ill-formed as some sort of partisanship for Islam and then exaggerate them for effect when you repeat them and wonder why the people you cover in your blanket statements don't respond positively. If you say Hitler loved to kick puppies and I say he didn't, I'm not defending Naziism, Hitler, or Nazis. I'm defending the idea that the things people say should actually be true.
Quote from: "frosty"I ain't nobody's sympathizer. I criticize ALL RELIGIONS, and if someone has a problem with me calling out Muslims and Islam then they are not true freethinkers.
True freethinking is using reason, logic, and evidence to determine your position. No one has a problem with you calling out Muslims and Islam as long as what you say about them is true. Hint: it's almost impossible to be correct when making a blanket statement about 1.3 billion people. Hint the second: a 'true freethinker' would not poison the well of discourse by presuming to be the arbiter of who is and isn't a 'true freethinker'.
If you're open to the idea of learning a little more about the principles of critical thinking, especially the avoidance of fallacies, you'll find that you can 'call out' Muslims and Islam more effectively.
For instance, Salafism is a pernicious influence in Sunni Islam that you'll find at the root of many Islamic terrorist groups. The USA should use its influence to aid reformist Muslim sects when they are in conflict with Salafists to keep Salafism from spreading further.
My criticism is fairly accurate and has the advantage of being able to be leveraged into more effective violence reduction because it addresses one of the greater sources of violence rather than trying to deal with the whole religion.
Christianity was as big a problem as Islam until it was muzzled by reformers internal to Christendom who systematically deprived it of political power. The same needs to happen with Islam, and treating it as one entity is an obstacle to reforming it. There are many Islams, though a lot of Muslims don't like to admit it, just as there are many Christianities and Judaisms. Sticking them under the same label is a convenient fiction that's a useful shorthand in conversation but an impediment as soon as you start talking about how to deal with them. Pentecostals, Southern Baptists, and conservative Catholics in the USA are often behind violations of the First Amendment. Liberal Quakers, Episopelians, and the UCC are usually not. Christianity is not monolithic, and neither is Islam. I wouldn't use an argument that starts 'all Christians', and I won't use one that starts 'all Muslims'. But if I DID, it would be recognizing that I am over-generalizing and I would be quick to clarify if someone seemed confused by my careless remarks.
I hope some of that was helpful for you to understand what is usually actually going on when atheists object to something you say about Islam or Muslims. We have a big contingent of rational skeptics who are sticklers for accuracy. It's okay not to hold to our standards of accuracy, but it's really not okay to assume we're motivated by a desire to defend the religion you're criticizing. We just want you to criticize it (and us) accurately.
All I did was say people were going to act a certain way, and they did. I pushed a button and got the reaction I expected. Like I said, no point arguing with anybody on this forum about this topic because they will never accept my premise, only theirs. Good points are made by the opposing side, it's just the impenetrable defense of Islam and it's followers I take issue with - and based on the responses, it's never going to change. It's never going to go away. So have fun.
Well, allow me to end the discussion with:
:roll:
Quote from: "Mister Agenda"Quote from: "frosty"I still don't understand why there seems to be some type of mental blockage here. One loose group of Atheists are trying to tell the other loose group of Atheists that Islam should be criticized like any other religion, and Muslims should not be exempt from criticism, and the second loose group of Atheists seem to be for the most part unbend-able to that idea.
Actually, it's one loose group of atheists trying to tell the other loose group of atheists that Islam should be criticized like any other religion while they criticize Islam in a different way from the way they criticize other religions. The first loose group of atheists seem unable to comprehend that criticizing the way they are critiquing Islam is not a defense of Islam, it's a defense of critical thought.
Quote from: "frosty"I've learned to accept over the years even if someone is an Atheist, they can still be a nuisance on the Internet. I learned to rise above the stupidity I saw from years of Internet squabbling, but now I see the same "omg don't insult Islam guyz" concept pushing through here and it's frustrating. It's frustrating, it's stagnant, it's pathetic, and for some reason there is a false equation that just because someone insults Islam they are a right winger. I am the farthest away from the right wing in my own right as I can be, and I just don't fucking understand why people defend Islam and Muslims so much.
Funny, I haven't seen ANY 'omg don't insult Ilam guyz'. I think you take any resistance to your ill-formed criticisms of Islam on the basis that they're ill-formed as some sort of partisanship for Islam and then exaggerate them for effect when you repeat them and wonder why the people you cover in your blanket statements don't respond positively. If you say Hitler loved to kick puppies and I say he didn't, I'm not defending Naziism, Hitler, or Nazis. I'm defending the idea that the things people say should actually be true.
Quote from: "frosty"I ain't nobody's sympathizer. I criticize ALL RELIGIONS, and if someone has a problem with me calling out Muslims and Islam then they are not true freethinkers.
True freethinking is using reason, logic, and evidence to determine your position. No one has a problem with you calling out Muslims and Islam as long as what you say about them is true. Hint: it's almost impossible to be correct when making a blanket statement about 1.3 billion people. Hint the second: a 'true freethinker' would not poison the well of discourse by presuming to be the arbiter of who is and isn't a 'true freethinker'.
If you're open to the idea of learning a little more about the principles of critical thinking, especially the avoidance of fallacies, you'll find that you can 'call out' Muslims and Islam more effectively.
For instance, Salafism is a pernicious influence in Sunni Islam that you'll find at the root of many Islamic terrorist groups. The USA should use its influence to aid reformist Muslim sects when they are in conflict with Salafists to keep Salafism from spreading further.
My criticism is fairly accurate and has the advantage of being able to be leveraged into more effective violence reduction because it addresses one of the greater sources of violence rather than trying to deal with the whole religion.
Christianity was as big a problem as Islam until it was muzzled by reformers internal to Christendom who systematically deprived it of political power. The same needs to happen with Islam, and treating as one entity is an obstacle to reforming it. There are many Islams, though a lot of Muslims don't like to admit it, just as there are many Christianities and Judaisms. Sticking them under the same label is a convenient fiction that's a useful shorthand in conversation but an impediment as soon as you start talking about how to deal with them. Pentecostals, Southern Baptists, and conservative Catholics in the USA are often behind violations of the First Amendment. Liberal Quakers, Episopelians, and the UCC are usually not. Christianity is not monolithic, and neither is Islam. I wouldn't use an argument that starts 'all Christians', and I won't use one that starts 'all Muslims'. But if I DID, it would be recognizing that I am over-generalizing and I would be quick to clarify if someone seemed confused by my careless remarks.
I hope some of that was helpful for you to understand what is usually actually going on when atheists object to something you say about Islam or Muslims. We have a big contingent of rational skeptics who are sticklers for accuracy. It's okay not to hold to our standards of accuracy, but it's really not okay to assume we're motivated by a desire to defend the religion you're criticizing. We just want you to criticize it (and us) accurately.
A true freethinker recognizes that he is not a freethinker at all. By asserting independence and free thought, you are asserting that you have a will. To have a will is to be able to exert control over a situation, variable, or object desirably. Since human will cannot apply itself to change the laws of nature, (quantum) physics (uncertainty principle*), or anything existing in an extra-dimensional plane, humans have no will at all. Nature moves first, so our will is exceeded by the laws around us. Tell me...who is the arbiter now? (and why do you poison the well of discourse using an enchanted tongue?)
*quantum structures are independent. they move first so to say.
So in conclusion, we have the freedom to manipulate everything in this world, but not the laws that bind them..nor do we have the freedom to bind anything outside of this world. Is that true freewill?
I acknowledge that My will is god's alone.
Quote from: "frosty"All I did was say people were going to act a certain way, and they did. I pushed a button and got the reaction I expected. Like I said, no point arguing with anybody on this forum about this topic because they will never accept my premise, only theirs. Good points are made by the opposing side, it's just the impenetrable defense of Islam and it's followers I take issue with - and based on the responses, it's never going to change. It's never going to go away. So have fun.
You believe that people who pointing out that you make incorrect and inaccurate claims defend Islam ... But there is no logical connection here. Your "experiment" is done on an obviously incorrect premise that makes no sense.
By this extreme leap you have basically demonstrated that you are building your claims on delusions and paranoia - while clinging to them in the adsence of any evidence in your favor, and only facing evidence to the contrary.
I'm very confused by how anyone can not see this, but after years of seeing brainwashed followers of legions of silly ideologies and hypthesises, I've gotten used to it.
Hmmm... so even though the discussion is supposed to be over, I am now a target for every single Tom, Dick and Harry that comes to this forum with an axe to grind?
Alright then, bring it on. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has them, and I'll enjoy reading what is thrown my way.
I've already stated my intentions in this thread, and yet everyone feels the need to act like forum armchair intellectuals and debating experts. So once again great intellects, impress me with your Internet prowess. Get angry that you were the source of an experiment all you want, try to use intellectual words to debase the fact as much as you please, it still happened.
QuoteHmmm... so even though the discussion is supposed to be over, I am now a target for every single Tom, Dick and Harry that comes to this forum with an axe to grind?
It's what happens to people who make illogical and irrational claims on this forum. You'd better get used to it :)
Yes. :-D
Frosty, you made utterly absurd fact claims, on a demonstably incorrect premise, accused at least one member (with laughable accusations at that, completely false to anyone who has read Plu's posts) and to top it all you ended with declaring victory. Maybe you can be reached, and that logic can pierce your blind faith and paranoia, but that will be a lot of work.
Muslims is real vs Ex-Muslims is fake.
Warning! muslims must kill people ex-muslims!
:-s
You must not be a native English speaker because I have no idea where you're coming from here.
I am happy the disbelievers are lose lol =D> Behind the disbelievers is devil friends of satan lol! :lol:
Saudi man say: If they don't believe in Allah. Allah will punish the disbelievers in hell forever at day of judgemnet SOON.
:shock: Saudi Man
Quote from: "Manusia"Muslims is real vs Ex-Muslims is fake.
Warning! muslims must kill people ex-muslims!
Religion of peace?
Fuck off.... :rollin:
Quote from: "MitchellDaBomb"A true freethinker recognizes that he is not a freethinker at all. By asserting independence and free thought, you are asserting that you have a will. To have a will is to be able to exert control over a situation, variable, or object desirably. Since human will cannot apply itself to change the laws of nature, (quantum) physics (uncertainty principle*), or anything existing in an extra-dimensional plane, humans have no will at all. Nature moves first, so our will is exceeded by the laws around us. Tell me...who is the arbiter now? (and why do you poison the well of discourse using an enchanted tongue?)
*quantum structures are independent. they move first so to say.
So in conclusion, we have the freedom to manipulate everything in this world, but not the laws that bind them..nor do we have the freedom to bind anything outside of this world. Is that true freewill?
I acknowledge that My will is god's alone.
What fresh idiocy is this?
Quote from: "frosty"All I did was say people were going to act a certain way, and they did. I pushed a button and got the reaction I expected.
There's a common internet slang term for people who deliberately push people's buttons to provoke reactions.
Quote from: "Manusia"I am happy the disbelievers are lose lol =D> Behind the disbelievers is devil friends of satan lol! :lol:
Saudi man say: If they don't believe in Allah. Allah will punish the disbelievers in hell forever at day of judgemnet SOON.
:shock: Saudi Man
Allah is so loving and merciful, lol
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"Quote from: "Mister Agenda"Quote from: "frosty"All I did was say people were going to act a certain way, and they did. I pushed a button and got the reaction I expected.
There's a common internet slang term for people who deliberately push people's buttons to provoke reactions.
:rollin:
How ironic you post an emoticon like that considering I'm pretty sure you were actually suspended for your rude behavior. Are we going to enjoy thousands more posts of you flaunting your femininity all over the place in
every single post you make? Probably.
I'm not opposed to real opposition voicing their views, but this thread has turned into an absolute shitfest. I suggest the mods/admins get a hold on this, right now, and yes Mister Agenda I understand what term you're getting at. But I am not the only one guilty of such things in this thread as of right now, and I refuse to be a public forum punching bag for a bunch of negative people.
Quote from: "La Dolce Vita"Yes. :-D
Frosty, you made utterly absurd fact claims, on a demonstably incorrect premise, accused at least one member (with laughable accusations at that, completely false to anyone who has read Plu's posts) and to top it all you ended with declaring victory. Maybe you can be reached, and that logic can pierce your blind faith and paranoia, but that will be a lot of work.
Do you ever get tired of tapping your keyboard and using debate terms to try to sound smart? It doesn't seem so. You are a real trooper.
There are exactly 57 [s:uck48s1x]card-carrying members of the Communist Party[/s:uck48s1x] [sub:uck48s1x]apologists for Islam[/sub:uck48s1x] [s:uck48s1x]in the Department of Defense[/s:uck48s1x] [sub:uck48s1x]on this forum[/sub:uck48s1x] at this time!
Drunkzie wasn't suspended for rude behaviour, she was suspended by her own choice.
Also, "getting a handle on this thread" would probably involve suspending you, so be careful what you wish for.
Quote from: "frosty"I'm not opposed to real opposition voicing their views, but this thread has turned into an absolute shitfest. I suggest the mods/admins get a hold on this, right now, and yes Mister Agenda I understand what term you're getting at.
If you think someone has violated the terms of your membership, you should notify the mods.
Quote from: "frosty"Do you ever get tired of tapping your keyboard and using debate terms to try to sound smart? It doesn't seem so. You are a real trooper.
I'm using terms you'd be familiar to get you to wake up and see the extreme delusions you are embracing. Something should get through to you, because you have a blind faith position based on paranoia where you think that everyone are part of this big (potentially brainwashed) conspiracy to defend and protect Islam/Muslims at all cost. You're claiming that people who think Islam is (one of) the worst religion(s) around and go after it at most chances they get, to go after it less often than other religions ... Already there you should see flashing warning signs screaming "I AM WRONG". But you don't ...
Let me ask you this?
Am I one of the people who are part of this conspiracy?
And can I be part of this conspiracy if islam is the religion that sickens me the most, has the most current potential to do harm and I'd never be afariad to voice that opinion?
You do seem relatively intelligent, so it's sad that you've gotten so lost in your own web of lies. It's just as frustrating and mind-numbing to read your posts in this thread as it is to read the posts of an apologist or conspiracy nut. I do hope you have a look at your positions and realize that you arrived at them on poor premises and data.
Personally I like when you flaunt your feminitity. (much tougher to spell than it appears)
I think frosty has some repressed issues with smart women and I only read the last page.
Flaunt it Shoe dear. Flaunt it! =D>
Who, me flaunt? :shock: ***checks holy scriptures for flaunting guidelines.
The thing is the vast majority of Muslims, outside the Middle East at any rate, aren't really at all interested in the political theocratic angle of Islam. They really only see it as believing in one God and doing good works. They will emphasize passages like this in the Quran.
"Say: O unbelievers!
I do not serve that which you serve,
Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion." Qur'an 109:1-6
Even an atheist wouldn't mind this, though these originate from the earlier part of Islam before Mohammed wielded any substantial political and religious authority. The character of these Gods revelations changes once Islam as a movement begins to pick up a head of steam.
Quote from: "sab"Dear Ex Muslims,
I support you completely. the trouble is many atheists are obsessed with leftist politics and whilst islam is publicly opposed to the USA they will look the other way.
WHilst christianity certainly executed apostates it never had the same attitude to Women that islam has. this is what we are dealingt with..people who will go to any extent to excuse Islam.
Islam is destroying my own country. The progressives look the other way because my country is an ally of the USA.
Uh, yeah, when one states that women are property, I think they view women pretty similarly.
Women weren't treated that much differently in the West historically to how women are treated in the Islamic world today. The term "rule of thumb" is an English expression that means that you shouldn't beat your wife with anything wider than your thumb.
Quote from: "Passion of Christ"Women weren't treated that much differently in the West historically to how women are treated in the Islamic world today. The term "rule of thumb" is an English expression that means that you shouldn't beat your wife with anything wider than your thumb.
According to the bible women are supposed to be treated like shit.
Quote from: "leo"According to the bible women are supposed to be treated like shit.
If you notice anything like that the standard response is "Well Jesus didn't..." and then you go to the gospel material like this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus'_int ... with_women (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus'_interactions_with_women)
And then you point out that this is the basis for our Western values and civilization which you have.
But even in the OT women were created in the image of God as a companion for men. Compare this to ancient Greek myth where Zeus creates women to punish men.
Quote from: "Passion of Christ"Quote from: "leo"According to the bible women are supposed to be treated like shit.
If you notice anything like that the standard response is "Well Jesus didn't..." and then you go to the gospel material like this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus'_int ... with_women (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus'_interactions_with_women)
And then you point out that this is the basis for our Western values and civilization which you have.
But even in the OT women were created in the image of God as a companion for men. Compare this to ancient Greek myth where Zeus creates women to punish men.
A lot of people were say that the Greeks were much closer to the truth in that~
QuoteIf you notice anything like that the standard response is "Well Jesus didn't..." and then you go to the gospel material like this.
If only there were people who acted like this jesus fellow. But alas, there appears to be no such group.
Quote from: "Plu"If only there were people who acted like this jesus fellow. But alas, there appears to be no such group.
Atheists seem to do quite well at it strangely enough.
That's because they have nothing to hide behind to excuse their terrible behaviour, I guess. When your modus operandi is "whatever I do, god will forgive me" it's much easier to do horrible things than when it is "whatever I do, I have to live with for the rest of my life".
(I don't know if you are trying to apply sarcasm or insult with the above post by the way. It feels like you're trying something like that, but I could just be misreading it.)
Quote from: "Plu"That's because they have nothing to hide behind to excuse their terrible behaviour, I guess.
It could be a consequence of casting aside the man made baggage of religion giving you a more direct line to God, something Jesus himself advised people to do. Now all you need to do is believe in Gods existence as Jesus instructed and your journey to the dark side will be complete. Your spiritual power level would be through the roof.
[youtube:24qldhm7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBtpyeLxVkI[/youtube:24qldhm7]
QuoteWhen your modus operandi is "whatever I do, god will forgive me" it's much easier to do horrible things than when it is "whatever I do, I have to live with for the rest of my life".
If you get the more direct line to God unsullied by dogma and human traditions you just won't feel like doing bad things. I think atheists get a taste of that action in their religionless state even if they're unaware of whats happening to them.
If you rephrase that as "If you realise that there is no god and you should be true to your own self, and no external entity", I'm totally aboard. Really, the two phrases come out to about the same thing.
Eh, the New Testament has a lot of bullshit in it too. Including with Jesus, who, to my understanding, advocated slavery, usurpation, megalomania, and so on. And don't even get me started on Paul. Point is, whether New or Old, both testaments are pretty terrible.
I think in certain circles the article in the OP is extremely relevant. Of course I understand why some atheists in Muslim ran countries don't speak out, but I don't think that is who the article is addressing. There are certainly plenty of atheists that may indeed recognize the travesty that is the Muslim religion, yet are far more vocal in their despise of Christians. All the rationalizations for this I have seen so far seem to be based on the idea that because Christians are the majority in their particular country or perhaps that because Christians have more dominant influence in the world overall that its more important to shut them down. But I think this rationalization misses the point. Part of the power of the Brights is the unity and their commonly shared views and intelligence. While Ex-Muslims who are atheist are very much part of that group, they are just not receiving the same level of support from their fellow atheists as ex-Christians or other atheists are. What makes it worse is the fact that the very culture of Islam in our world makes Ex-Muslims extraordinarily rare. Even if a Muslim is in a reasonable country, that individual faces far worse reprecussions for leaving the religion. The fact that there are so few ex-Muslims is just another factor that perpetuates people staying with what's comfortable (even if it is absurd).
Of course Ex-Christians and Ex-Muslims can relate, but it really does seem like a majority of atheists (especially ex-Christians) are so self-absorbed that they spend all their breath and letters on their contempt for their former prison. They dominate the majority of anti-religion discourse, making ex-Muslims even more of a muted group. But that really is just the tip of the iceberg. We've got so much movement and traction on the Christian dilemma, so much I think we're winning the media battle overall. But for Muslims... no where close to the same. We've got a media that sympathizes with Islam so much and yet where is the organized movement to shut that down? I am not saying that such movements don't exist, but they pale in comparison.
Lastly, the excuse that opposing Islam is potentially more dangerous than opposing Christianity makes an even stronger case for the article. Clearly the article is addressing atheists in countries where reprecussions for opposing Islam are unlikely. Most of the time, the only people who are in danger of opposing Islam in the west are ex-Muslims or would be ex-Muslims. I really think those who are not ex-Muslims really have an obligation to be the voice and body for the ex-Muslims to hide behind. Yet, most of us are still on and on about how we hate Christianity and how awful our congress is full of them and yada yada. Truth is, Christianity is losing power on the daily. Islam, if anything, is on the rise, even in the West in many cases.
^^^ lol
Me thinks religion is the problem.
Religions "competing" for headlines and "power."
How laughable!
If an almighty Creator exists, he doesn't need to be "marketed" through religion. Will the real god stand up? How many religions are there, all purporting "truth?" Lol
Gadfly, make no mistake about it. Atheism is not the problem. Religion is.
Quote from: "Deidre32"^^^ lol
Me thinks religion is the problem.
Religions "competing" for headlines and "power."
How laughable!
If an almighty Creator exists, he doesn't need to be "marketed" through religion. Will the real god stand up? How many religions are there, all purporting "truth?" Lol
Gadfly, make no mistake about it. Atheism is not the problem. Religion is.
As U2 sang in the original version of "Bullet The Blue Sky"......."The God they believe isn't short on cash mister......."
I love em despite the religion.....ha.
Quote from: "Deidre32"^^^ lol
Me thinks religion is the problem.
Religions "competing" for headlines and "power."
How laughable!
If an almighty Creator exists, he doesn't need to be "marketed" through religion. Will the real god stand up? How many religions are there, all purporting "truth?" Lol
Gadfly, make no mistake about it. Atheism is not the problem. Religion is.
Wait what? I didn't say atheism is the problem.
Atheists are to blame in this particular problem, and so yes that means I include myself in the list of that problem. I have been guilty of beating a dying horse over and over while my buddies could use some help bringing down their thriving behemoth. Just saying that sometimes we do focus on one too much so that it really hurts us as collective group.
Quote from: "Moriarty"Quote from: "Deidre32"^^^ lol
Me thinks religion is the problem.
Religions "competing" for headlines and "power."
How laughable!
If an almighty Creator exists, he doesn't need to be "marketed" through religion. Will the real god stand up? How many religions are there, all purporting "truth?" Lol
Gadfly, make no mistake about it. Atheism is not the problem. Religion is.
As U2 sang in the original version of "Bullet The Blue Sky"......."The God they believe isn't short on cash mister......."
I love em despite the religion.....ha.
Oh Moriarty I am so glad you posted this. U2 is my favorite band and I often keep it secret because 1.) Bono's pulpit, and 2.) My friends typically make fun of me for liking a band that's so "mainstream". Outside of his religious views I really do think Bono is a great guy with good intentions (even if egotism is a big driver in those intentions). He does a lot of good work, imo.
If I ever get the chance to go to a U2 concert. I will probably die from excitement before I get to hear their first song.
Oh hey, curious... Since you are a fan of Moriarty, does this mean that you are Irish? I only ask because I know the guy who plays him in the BBC series "Sherlock", Andrew Scott, is from Ireland... I am a big fan of Andrew Scott and if you are too, I have a really interesting conversation he has with one of his directors that has some really interesting perspectives on religion and how it can effect artistic outlets. Good stuff.
Quote from: "TheGadfly"Quote from: "Deidre32"^^^ lol
Me thinks religion is the problem.
Religions "competing" for headlines and "power."
How laughable!
If an almighty Creator exists, he doesn't need to be "marketed" through religion. Will the real god stand up? How many religions are there, all purporting "truth?" Lol
Gadfly, make no mistake about it. Atheism is not the problem. Religion is.
Wait what? I didn't say atheism is the problem. Atheists are to blame in this particular problem, and so yes that means I include myself in the list of that problem. I have been guilty of beating a dying horse over and over while my buddies could use some help bringing down their thriving behemoth. Just saying that sometimes we do focus on one too much so that it really hurts us as collective group.
Semantics. Atheists are tired of having theism pushed on them, especially when it comes to governing laws. Theism has no place for example dictating if two people in love, who are of the same sex, if they are legally allowed to marry. But theism er theists have been front and center on this issue. Where does the notion of one woman/one man eminate from? Bullshit religion! So, atheists are tired of remaining silent on important issues such as this. That's just one of several issues that religion tries to "own." The horse is far from dead.
Quote from: "TheGadfly"I think in certain circles the article in the OP is extremely relevant. Of course I understand why some atheists in Muslim ran countries don't speak out, but I don't think that is who the article is addressing. There are certainly plenty of atheists that may indeed recognize the travesty that is the Muslim religion, yet are far more vocal in their despise of Christians. All the rationalizations for this I have seen so far seem to be based on the idea that because Christians are the majority in their particular country or perhaps that because Christians have more dominant influence in the world overall that its more important to shut them down.
The important thing is to call them 'rationalizations' so you don't have deal with them as actual reasons. We're not trying to 'shut Christians down'. We're trying to thwart their efforts to legislate their religion in our own countries. If a lot of Christians weren't on our side on this matter, we wouldn't have the numbers to stop it. We have at least a little power here because we can vote and advocate and educate.
Quote from: "TheGadfly"But I think this rationalization misses the point. Part of the power of the Brights is the unity and their commonly shared views and intelligence. While Ex-Muslims who are atheist are very much part of that group, they are just not receiving the same level of support from their fellow atheists as ex-Christians or other atheists are.
Maybe that has something to do with it being a largely Western organization that conducts most of its affairs in English. To receive the same level of support as ex-Christians, there would have to be a comparable number of ex-Muslims involved. If rising atheism was primarily a Middle Eastern phenomenon, the players would be reversed: ex-Muslims would get plenty of support while ex-Christians would have to make do. It's the nature of the situation that has created the situation, not the personal failings of the individuals involved.
Quote from: "TheGadfly"What makes it worse is the fact that the very culture of Islam in our world makes Ex-Muslims extraordinarily rare. Even if a Muslim is in a reasonable country, that individual faces far worse reprecussions for leaving the religion. The fact that there are so few ex-Muslims is just another factor that perpetuates people staying with what's comfortable (even if it is absurd).
The way to fix this is to reform Islam, which can be gradually accomplished by favoring more tolerant factions and making things difficult for less tolerant factions. Only be reducing the consequences can people be more free to leave the religion. Until fairly recently, the USA was supplying extremist-oriented textbooks to the Afghani school system. We've been shooting ourselves in the foot for decades. Iran was modernizing and liberalizing until we installed the Shah. So was Afghanistan until we armed the Mujahadeen to resist the Soviets, who were responding to a request from the president of Afghanistan to quell a rural uprising against modernity by what would become the Taliban. We prop up the House of Saud militarily. We basically spent fifty years making sure half the countries in the Middle East would become more conservative. America needs to be more aware of the likely repercussions for its actions. The world would be a better place today for ex-Muslims and everyone else if we had been bearing that in mind all along.
Quote from: "TheGadfly"Of course Ex-Christians and Ex-Muslims can relate, but it really does seem like a majority of atheists (especially ex-Christians) are so self-absorbed that they spend all their breath and letters on their contempt for their former prison. They dominate the majority of anti-religion discourse, making ex-Muslims even more of a muted group.
They're not a muted group. They're a small group. There's a difference.
Quote from: "TheGadfly"But that really is just the tip of the iceberg. We've got so much movement and traction on the Christian dilemma, so much I think we're winning the media battle overall. But for Muslims... no where close to the same. We've got a media that sympathizes with Islam so much and yet where is the organized movement to shut that down? I am not saying that such movements don't exist, but they pale in comparison.
That the media sympathizes with Islam to a point that it's a problem is a bare assertion. I'd say it sympathizes with Islam just enough that incidents of mosque desecration and vandalism and shooting of random Muslims (and Sikhs, because They Look Muslim to some people) in the USA are fairly rare.
Quote from: "TheGadfly"Lastly, the excuse that opposing Islam is potentially more dangerous than opposing Christianity makes an even stronger case for the article.
This is a canard. We don't go easy on Islam cause we're askeered of the Muslims. It was atheists who came up with Draw Mohammed Day. Even if you're irrationally afraid of Muslim retaliation, they can't get us over the internet.
Quote from: "TheGadfly"Clearly the article is addressing atheists in countries where reprecussions for opposing Islam are unlikely.
Clearly to you, maybe.
Quote from: "TheGadfly"Most of the time, the only people who are in danger of opposing Islam in the west are ex-Muslims or would be ex-Muslims.
Glad we got that cleared up.
Quote from: "TheGadfly"I really think those who are not ex-Muslims really have an obligation to be the voice and body for the ex-Muslims to hide behind.
By going on ignorant anti-Islamic rants? Because that is basically what separates the atheists who 'stand for the ex-Muslims' from the rest of the atheists who like to have their facts straight, even when talking about religious folks.
Quote from: "TheGadfly"Yet, most of us are still on and on about how we hate Christianity and how awful our congress is full of them and yada yada. Truth is, Christianity is losing power on the daily. Islam, if anything, is on the rise, even in the West in many cases.
It's losing power because of our efforts. We were pretty much silent between O'Hair and Dawkins, and a major US political party became an arm of the religious right. The question is not whether we are opposing fundamentalist Christianity aimed at turning the USA into a theocracy (see Dominionism and how many political figures are Dominionists) too much, it's whether we are opposing it enough. Sure, we win in the long run...but not by slacking off in our own backyards. There is legislation in multiple states eroding church state separation every year, and every one of them has to be countered.
What are YOU doing to oppose Islam, by the way?
Quote from: "Mister Agenda"The important thing is to call them 'rationalizations' so you don't have deal with them as actual reasons. We're not trying to 'shut Christians down'. We're trying to thwart their efforts to legislate their religion in our own countries. If a lot of Christians weren't on our side on this matter, we wouldn't have the numbers to stop it. We have at least a little power here because we can vote and advocate and educate.
I understand that. You can also call rationalizations, "excuses". I am not trying to be pejorative. I just think we as atheists need to be critical of everyone, especially ourselves.. A lot of atheists, including myself, have a harder time doing that than they let on.
QuoteMaybe that has something to do with it being a largely Western organization that conducts most of its affairs in English. To receive the same level of support as ex-Christians, there would have to be a comparable number of ex-Muslims involved. If rising atheism was primarily a Middle Eastern phenomenon, the players would be reversed: ex-Muslims would get plenty of support while ex-Christians would have to make do. It's the nature of the situation that has created the situation, not the personal failings of the individuals involved.
That's a good point. I just think its something we should be actively trying to change in ourselves, even if that's an uphill battle due to the social conditions. I don't think I agree with you that in order for ex-Muslims to receive the same level of support as ex-Christian they have to be similar in number. I think we need to talk in terms of proportions. ex-Muslims tend to get proportionally less explicit and implicit support than their ex-Christian counter-part. And hell, given the ex-Muslims have to uniquely go through given the very nature of the situation you speak up, we should try to give them disproportionate support in their favor.
QuoteThe way to fix this is to reform Islam, which can be gradually accomplished by favoring more tolerant factions and making things difficult for less tolerant factions. Only be reducing the consequences can people be more free to leave the religion. Until fairly recently, the USA was supplying extremist-oriented textbooks to the Afghani school system. We've been shooting ourselves in the foot for decades. Iran was modernizing and liberalizing until we installed the Shah. So was Afghanistan until we armed the Mujahadeen to resist the Soviets, who were responding to a request from the president of Afghanistan to quell a rural uprising against modernity by what would become the Taliban. We prop up the House of Saud militarily. We basically spent fifty years making sure half the countries in the Middle East would become more conservative. America needs to be more aware of the likely repercussions for its actions. The world would be a better place today for ex-Muslims and everyone else if we had been bearing that in mind all along.
+1,000,000
QuoteThey're not a muted group. They're a small group. There's a difference.
There is a difference, sure. But given human nature in social condition, small groups also tend to be muted groups as a result.
QuoteThat the media sympathizes with Islam to a point that it's a problem is a bare assertion. I'd say it sympathizes with Islam just enough that incidents of mosque desecration and vandalism and shooting of random Muslims (and Sikhs, because They Look Muslim to some people) in the USA are fairly rare.
That's a fair point. I never thought about it from that perspective.
QuoteThis is a canard. We don't go easy on Islam cause we're askeered of the Muslims. It was atheists who came up with Draw Mohammed Day. Even if you're irrationally afraid of Muslim retaliation, they can't get us over the internet.
I was sort of responding to a few fellow posters that proffered that rationalization. Plus, that was the point I was trying to make.
QuoteClearly to you, maybe.
You disagree with that statement? I am surprised. I am curious to hear your reading of it.
QuoteBy going on ignorant anti-Islamic rants? Because that is basically what separates the atheists who 'stand for the ex-Muslims' from the rest of the atheists who like to have their facts straight, even when talking about religious folks.
I think we're a group that needs a bit more cohesion. We do have to be careful not to turn into some fascist revolution, but we need to stand together more often.
I see your point though. Perhaps I should change that statement to, "we have an obligation to seek the truth in all situations and when it becomes apparent, we need to shift our focus where it deserves."
QuoteIt's losing power because of our efforts. We were pretty much silent between O'Hair and Dawkins, and a major US political party became an arm of the religious right. The question is not whether we are opposing fundamentalist Christianity aimed at turning the USA into a theocracy (see Dominionism and how many political figures are Dominionists) too much, it's whether we are opposing it enough. Sure, we win in the long run...but not by slacking off in our own backyards. There is legislation in multiple states eroding church state separation every year, and every one of them has to be countered.
I am not saying we are focusing too much attention on Christianity. I am saying that in comparison to Islam, Christianity is getting too much attention as to be harmful to those who need our help dismantling their behemoth. I understand not agreeing with the article's implications. But I do think it's important to keep an open mind to what could be our own failings, even if others are to blame in the end.
QuoteWhat are YOU doing to oppose Islam, by the way?
Not enough :( That's why I tried to include myself in all my critical arguments. I am sorry if I fell short of that goal and came across as being on a high-horse.
QuoteSemantics. Atheists are tired of having theism pushed on them, especially when it comes to governing laws. Theism has no place for example dictating if two people in love, who are of the same sex, if they are legally allowed to marry. But theism er theists have been front and center on this issue. Where does the notion of one woman/one man eminate from? Bullshit religion! So, atheists are tired of remaining silent on important issues such as this. That's just one of several issues that religion tries to "own." The horse is far from dead.
Yes it was semantics. The reason I clarified is because by your choice of the word "atheism" you incorrectly inferred that I was saying atheism is the problem, which is opposite of the truth.
Semantics is important, so please don't trivialize it.
QuoteYou are confusing politics and manipulation with some genuine 'heroic battle' against a religion. This is an atheist delusion very much like religious people have. The politically correct attitude towards Islam of politicians, media, business partners...etc is a result of a very simple fact no one really cares who is a victim of what.
First off, Drunken, I have the feeling I am going to really enjoy picking your brain from time to time. I enjoy your input.
Your last sentence there is what I think is called the fundamental attribution error. That position you hold isn't any more objectively true than the critical position I try to place on fellow atheists and myself. Not to say it is completely invalid, its just that it would be difficult, if not impossible, to falsify your assertion, I think, so it loses some objectivity.
QuoteNo body; no power zone, organisation, state, government has ever had an agenda to stop Islam. Islam is profitable on many levels. Islamic threat is very needed in Western world and it is mostly 'created' fear around an event (9/11) which was just an eventual outcome of decades of mingling, dividing, radicalising the region for this or that reason.
That is false. There have been and are initiative in the west and east that have an agenda to stop Islam. I am surprised that you are unaware of that.
QuoteAn American society where people are NOT scared or paranoid of some sort of a threat (communists, muslims...) to them is uncontrollable. That American is a world citizen and she/he is unacceptable to the American state. You could say this for another country, but no, in US scale this would be a whole new level of thing. There is no profit, no vote, not one benefit for the destructive self serving power US is in this. Nobody gets rich or powerful with that American society.
This is the reality of what you are talking about up there. This is the intellectual American's 'socratic cave'. And the shadows that occupy him on the cave's wall that he is chained to. He feels comfortable for now and sees his tyrant as a hero with a few 'mistakes'.
I don't disagree with your analysis here. I am not sure how it directly relates to my position, but I am listening.
Sorry, again, I am not trying to be pejorative and I try hard not to stand on my ivory tower, I just suck sometimes. Perhaps we both need to try and come down from it.
QuoteAnd it annoys everyone that there is no criticism, no backlash against this destructive religion that crushes people which is very comical however you look at it in the big picture.
I am confused by this statement. First you say not one entity has had an agenda to stop Islam and then you say it annoys EVERYONE that no one is working against Islam. That is contradictory, unless I am misreading what you are saying (given my history that is probably it).
QuoteAbout atheists from muslim countries I can say lot of things, because I am one. I am not an ex muslim, I haven't participated in any mass delusion of the sort, but most people always see me as some sort of an 'apologist'. But I was born in one and living there. (I even coincided with western people who insisted to treat me as a 'muslim', because they simply couldn't wrap their heads around about my situation.) Do you know why? Because I can say "hold on, this is not as you are conditioned to think, this like this and other is that way". If you try to make an explanation about that society you live in, voice the very obvious parallels BAM, you are an apologist. (If you are a westerner, you are a liberal in the same scenario) The fact that people are people has no weight if you are talking about an islamic society. Because muslims are not people. Doesn't matter what the politically correct talk follows. And saying all these things is 'ranting'.
You do bring a perspective that westerners, including myself, have a hard time understanding. Do you live in the West now or are you still in the middle east (or some other Muslims country). I understand if you don't want to answer that, I just was curious how much time you've spent over in the West. A lot of my perspective comes from the fact that I am indeed from the west (more specifically the US) and as a result of my observations, I have become more and more critical of not only the way the US comes across on a large scale, but specifically how American atheists treat atheism itself. I'd like to get your opinion on that.
I am trying to be clear that perhaps the first atheist to be criticized here is myself. I hope I am not creating some sort of double standard here. I trust you and others will keep me in check, so that's good.
QuoteAnyway, what you are suggesting in general is a delusion. You cannot evolve a religion or fight against it that way and more importantly there is no agenda to do that for any power that can technically be effective on it.
I am really going to mull this over and come back to it. It is hard to come out of a delusion when you can't see it. And so if you are right in that I have embraced some sort of delusion, I am going to need to work on re-hardwiring my brain somehow. If you have some tips on how to do that, let me know.
Anyway, thanks for your unique input!
Quote from: "TheGadfly"We've got a media that sympathizes with Islam.
:rollin:
You live in the middle east or something?
Quote from: "Bibliofagus"Quote from: "TheGadfly"We've got a media that sympathizes with Islam.
:rollin:
You live in the middle east or something?
Nope, the US.
Quote from: "Bibliofagus"Quote from: "TheGadfly"We've got a media that sympathizes with Islam.
:rollin:
You live in the middle east or something?
Nope, the US.
Quote from: "TheGadfly"Quote from: "Bibliofagus"Quote from: "TheGadfly"We've got a media that sympathizes with Islam.
:rollin:
You live in the middle east or something?
Nope, the US.
And your media sympathizes with Islam?
Really? I find this very hard to believe.
Not going to speak for him but I would guess he means that they don't attack them enough.
To be fair, since 9/11 we've gotten enough "Not all Muslims are fundamentalist extremists." pushed down our throat.
Quote from: "Moriarty"Not going to speak for him but I would guess he means that they don't attack them enough.
To be fair, since 9/11 we've gotten enough "Not all Muslims are fundamentalist extremists." pushed down our throat.
In my country we have US-funded people who never stop attacking islam in the media. They get exposure galore. That's why I'm surpised.
Quote from: "Moriarty"Not going to speak for him but I would guess he means that they don't attack them enough.
To be fair, since 9/11 we've gotten enough "Not all Muslims are fundamentalist extremists." pushed down our throat.
Thanks Moriarty. That's pretty close to what I was getting at.
There is not a lot of active and intentional sympathizing going on in the media (there is some, but not a lot). The problem I am talking about is basically what Moriarty suggested.
Statements like,
QuoteNot all Muslims are fundamentalist extremists
are a bit of a truism... Excessive truisms and thoughtful journalism are enemies, in my opinion (or at least they should be).
Sadly, a lot of the mainstream media outlets that are actively critical of Islam (such as Fox News) also have their own agenda to push that just adds another problem to the mix.
Personally, to the original thread and title....where is that it is dependent on us atheists to come to their aid. Should be more like Dear Ex Muslims, we Atheists are waiting for you....all are free to join........I don't know of many Atheists go on active recruiting missions.
Quote from: "TheGadfly"Quote from: "Moriarty"Not going to speak for him but I would guess he means that they don't attack them enough.
To be fair, since 9/11 we've gotten enough "Not all Muslims are fundamentalist extremists." pushed down our throat.
Thanks Moriarty. That's pretty close to what I was getting at.
There is not a lot of active and intentional sympathizing going on in the media (there is some, but not a lot). The problem I am talking about is basically what Moriarty suggested.
Statements like, QuoteNot all Muslims are fundamentalist extremists
are a bit of a truism... Excessive truisms and thoughtful journalism are enemies, in my opinion (or at least they should be).
We get these as well. However over here when you confront the proponents of this kind of thinking with this, they will just invoke 'freedom of religion'. And the definition of 'freedom of religion' varies. Most people are not actively aware that (for instance) stoning your unruly children to death is a commandment in their religion, yet it is illegal by law. 'Freedom of religion' does however give religious people rights they would not have otherwise, so it's natural for them to cling to them. And they will. In The Netherlands for instance we have government funded religious schools. From 4-24 years old. Muslim schools as well. The problem of course is a law that says that people have a right to religious education, but everybody who is fighting muslim schools just targets islam, and not the law.
Why? It's because religious people have a common interest. Keeping freedom of religion (or in the case of my example: a right to religious education) as broadly defined as possible.
Quote from: "The Fly"Sadly, a lot of the mainstream media outlets that are actively critical of Islam (such as Fox News) also have their own agenda to push that just adds another problem to the mix.
This, it's a shame really. :-|
Hi Im new here. I agree with you.
As they say "all politics are local' which unless I'm wrong politicians, as much as they might want to come right out and say Islam sucks they can't. We in the US and many others have treaties with many Islamic nations or predominantly Muslim countries and most people are a tad sick of war and if Obama for example came right out to say Islam is a disease, a cancer on every society, well, he'd have a huge mess on his hands. Can you even imagine if this happened? We'd be in a perpetual state of never ending war with possibly billions slaughtered over religion and yes folks, the media is a huge part of the messaging of our respective governments.
Quote from: "The Fly"Quote from: "Mister Agenda"Clearly to you, maybe.
You disagree with that statement? I am surprised. I am curious to hear your reading of it.
I misread/misspoke, good catch. Good replies overall, The Fly. Thanks for taking the time to be thoughtful.