I brought up some tough issues for some Christians to address about their god's justice. I said:
God foreknew that the Holocaust would happen, and people would die as Jews. Jews by definition do not accept Jesus as their saviour; therefore, those who died in the Holocaust as Jews went to hell. Yet God created them anyway?
If God did not know, then he is not omniscient, nor is he all-powerful. If he did know, then he is malevolent beyond belief.
The Christians said things like, "What does it matter how they died? They had a choice to accept Christ. God knows things we cannot know about everything."
:-x I just don't get it! Do they not realise what they are saying? Those victims were REAL people with families! How can Christians justify this horror? This is the god they love and serve.
I'd like your thoughts on this.
-TR
I find religion to be completely useless. It is a waste of energy and money and time. I cant stand most of the christians i have met. Terrible breed IMO.
Christianity seems to breed the give me a handout and I will give you minimal or no return mentality. SUCK SUCK SUCK life out.
You've pretty much summed up Epicurus' "problem of evil":
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
We all have a way to adapt to the horrors of being alive or we parish. No pun intended. :roll: Solitary
It's simple. More times than not, religion takes the instinctive good in people and replaces it with shit.
In other words, they think that they love is meant to be designated for a being like that.
Will someone explain to me what good any religion has done for any sentient creature outside of false hope that doesn't really help anyone but make them feel better like a psychiatrist. A bar tender can do that and better with two drinks. :shock: :lol: Solitary
Quote from: "Solitary"Will someone explain to me what good any religion has done for any sentient creature outside of false hope that doesn't really help anyone but make them feel better like a psychiatrist. A bar tender can do that and better with two drinks. :shock: :lol: Solitary
The ONLY thing I can think of is consoling someone of the fear of death, for either themselves or for one of their loved ones. I can imagine that being of some help to someone of the extremely faint of heart.
Quote from: "Tabula Rasa"The Christians said things like, "What does it matter how they died? They had a choice to accept Christ. God knows things we cannot know about everything."
:-x I just don't get it! Do they not realise what they are saying? Those victims were REAL people with families! How can Christians justify this horror?
For one thing, they think that belief is a choice. Most of them actually think that they CHOSE to believe in Jesus.
For another, it's a "I got mine, fuck you" mentality.
As for how they can love a god like that - if they don't they burn in hell forever, so they have no choice.
Funny how they know that God knows things that they can't know, but they can't tell us WHAT he knows about those things. What could God possibly know about Holocaust victims that would justify putting them in hell just for not believing in Jesus, the archetypal demigod myth?
Christians like to pick Bible stories that only portray their god in a positive light. As positive stories are few to none in the Bible, they usually just take any old story from the Bible and somehow twist it into an all 'sunshine and rainbows' story. By the time that a person gets old enough to actually interpret the Bible for what it is, they are already so far indoctrinated that they just choose to continue their ignorance.
If God created everything then he created evil and is, therefore, evil by definition. He even admitted as much in the Bible. (Isaiah 45:7) And even if you want to try to make the argument that God didn't create evil, you can't deny that he allows it to exist. So in that case, he is either powerless or evil. The bottom line in all of this is either God is evil or he doesn't exist. I tend to believe the latter.
Epicurus, who died in 270 BCE, posed the problem. It's not a new idea.
> How can Christians justify this horror? This is the god they love and serve.
The Jews killed Jesus:
Matthew 27:25: [Jesus'] blood be upon us [the Jews] and on our children.
They killed their own prophets:
1 Thessalonians 2:14,15: For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets,...
Exodus 32:27 has Moses saying that God instructs people to kill those who don't worship the same god as they do: And Moses said, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel: Put, every man, his sword by his side, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.
If God says to do it, it's OK.
Frank
Firstbible2nd: and ye that read this will be forever scorned.
When did this happen?
Jesus did say do not judge so that yourself won't be judge.
That's all i can say i guess.
QuoteHow can Christians love this god??
Fear and cowardice.
Quote from: "RaymanZ"When did this happen?
Jesus did say do not judge so that yourself won't be judge.
That's all i can say i guess.
In John 7:24, Jesus tells us to judge: "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment."
This is a god who can't make up his mind.
Frank
Quote from: "FrankDK"Quote from: "RaymanZ"When did this happen?
Jesus did say do not judge so that yourself won't be judge.
That's all i can say i guess.
In John 7:24, Jesus tells us to judge: "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment."
This is a god who can't make up his mind.
Frank
Oh, i didn't know this one had a contradiction.
Oh well, choose and pick ;)
QuoteOh, i didn't know this one had a contradiction.
Oh well, choose and pick ;)
That about sums it up :P
Mmm... i guess it all comes down to the past and the future. We shall bring forth better generation for our flock, so that they may enjoy the worlds good and create peace and love, we are all one ^^
Even if the past was like that before, we should look forward and enjoy life. Harmony and happiness for everyone ^^
meh.....here's a thought....even before you posted, we knew you...
"There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."
Quote from: "prophet""There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."
The "wicked," to you, are the people with enough knowledge and presence of mind to comprehend the world's problems. Many of those problems are caused by people like yourself. If there is no peace for the "wicked," it is only because of assholes like you who continually afflict us with problems you should know better than to cause.
I propose a slightly different view. Say it's 1968 and everybody is a soldier. The Christians see themselves as "good", for the sake of argument we'll make them American soldiers. They are constantly told that the vietcong are "evil" enemy soldiers. Everything the enemy stands for is bad, evil and of the devil. Let's say you serve overseas and you witness our soldiers doing bad things. Mei Lie massacre and other such events. Do you witness against your own comrades? Not likely, they might have done something bad, but our side is the good side. If our boys do something bad it's because the other side is so evil that they were driven to it.
I'm getting a little off my train of thought, but the idea is that people like to see themselves as on the good side. They like things to be black and white, good and evil. Even if our general does something that looks bad, he's still a good guy and hey the winners get to write the history anyway.
By the way, in this scenario we are the conscientious objectors. We choose to not take sides. We are the ones saying "your all full of crap" there is no good and evil.
Quote from: "Tabula Rasa"I brought up some tough issues for some Christians to address about their god's justice. I said:
God foreknew that the Holocaust would happen, and people would die as Jews. Jews by definition do not accept Jesus as their saviour; therefore, those who died in the Holocaust as Jews went to hell. Yet God created them anyway?
If God did not know, then he is not omniscient, nor is he all-powerful. If he did know, then he is malevolent beyond belief.
The Christians said things like, "What does it matter how they died? They had a choice to accept Christ. God knows things we cannot know about everything."
:-x I just don't get it! Do they not realise what they are saying? Those victims were REAL people with families! How can Christians justify this horror? This is the god they love and serve.
I'd like your thoughts on this.
-TR
The problem is that we don't understand our own sinfulness or God's holiness. We see ourselves as good and therefore, if God treats us well then He is good and if He treats us poorly then He is evil. That's why God's actions don't make sense to you. You need to first have a Biblical view of yourself and of God. To put things in perspective, do you wonder how people can love a judge who sends murderers and rapists to prison?
Quote from: "bfiddy100"Quote from: "Tabula Rasa"I brought up some tough issues for some Christians to address about their god's justice. I said:
God foreknew that the Holocaust would happen, and people would die as Jews. Jews by definition do not accept Jesus as their saviour; therefore, those who died in the Holocaust as Jews went to hell. Yet God created them anyway?
If God did not know, then he is not omniscient, nor is he all-powerful. If he did know, then he is malevolent beyond belief.
The Christians said things like, "What does it matter how they died? They had a choice to accept Christ. God knows things we cannot know about everything."
:-x I just don't get it! Do they not realise what they are saying? Those victims were REAL people with families! How can Christians justify this horror? This is the god they love and serve.
I'd like your thoughts on this.
-TR
The problem is that we don't understand our own sinfulness or God's holiness. We see ourselves as good and therefore, if God treats us well then He is good and if He treats us poorly then He is evil. That's why God's actions don't make sense to you. You need to first have a Biblical view of yourself and of God. To put things in perspective, do you wonder how people can love a judge who sends murderers and rapists to prison?
Do you realize the bible was written by bronze-age sheep herders who were vastly ignorant of how the universe works, or had a very primitive understanding of human psychology?!??!?
Quote from: "josephpalazzo"Do you realize the bible was written by bronze-age sheep herders who were vastly ignorant of how the universe works, or had a very primitive understanding of human psychology?!??!?
Christians believe the Bible was written by God through men. The claim that the men were ignorant and didn't know much of anything about anything is evidence for the Bible being written by God. The more you attack the men God used to write the Bible the more you provide evidence for the claim that Someone more intelligent was actually behind it. If a bunch of really smart, worldly people wrote the Bible then we shouldn't be too surprised that it became the world's best-seller.
> Christians believe the Bible was written by God through men. The claim that the men were ignorant and didn't know much of anything about anything is evidence for the Bible being written by God. The more you attack the men God used to write the Bible the more you provide evidence for the claim that Someone more intelligent was actually behind it. If a bunch of really smart, worldly people wrote the Bible then we shouldn't be too surprised that it became the world's best-seller.
Hardly. The Bible says that the earth is flat, that the sun revolves around the earth and not the other way around, that diseases are caused by evil spirits, and loads of other malarkey.
One of many contradictions:
Exodus 20:13: Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 32:27: Put, every man, his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and everyman his neighbor.
In the Bible, your god is inadvertently made out to be an idiot, a liar, a murderer, and a psychopath. If it had been written by a god, it would have no errors, contradictions, or stupidity in it.
The reason it has become a best-seller is the Roman short sword. In Nazi Germany, the best seller was Mein Kampf. That didn't make it true or written by a god.
Frank
Quote from: "bfiddy100"Quote from: "josephpalazzo"Do you realize the bible was written by bronze-age sheep herders who were vastly ignorant of how the universe works, or had a very primitive understanding of human psychology?!??!?
Christians believe the Bible was written by God through men. The claim that the men were ignorant and didn't know much of anything about anything is evidence for the Bible being written by God.
Here's a list of contradictions: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... tions.html (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html)
If the bible is God's words through ignorant people, your God is a fucking moron. Lets put it this way: there should be some evidence that would distinguish real things from fantasy. If there is none-- then it makes sense to conclude they're fantasy.
Quote from: "FrankDK"> Christians believe the Bible was written by God through men. The claim that the men were ignorant and didn't know much of anything about anything is evidence for the Bible being written by God. The more you attack the men God used to write the Bible the more you provide evidence for the claim that Someone more intelligent was actually behind it. If a bunch of really smart, worldly people wrote the Bible then we shouldn't be too surprised that it became the world's best-seller.
Hardly. The Bible says that the earth is flat, that the sun revolves around the earth and not the other way around, that diseases are caused by evil spirits, and loads of other malarkey.
One of many contradictions:
Exodus 20:13: Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 32:27: Put, every man, his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and everyman his neighbor.
In the Bible, your god is inadvertently made out to be an idiot, a liar, a murderer, and a psychopath. If it had been written by a god, it would have no errors, contradictions, or stupidity in it.
The reason it has become a best-seller is the Roman short sword. In Nazi Germany, the best seller was Mein Kampf. That didn't make it true or written by a god.
Frank
Well, we're going down quite a rabbit trail now. But the Bible teaches that the earth is a sphere, not flat (Luke 17:34-35).
And the commandment is not to take innocent life. No contradiction there.
But I wonder what good it would do if God revealed to you that the Bible was true. Would you then agree that you are evil and deserve to go to hell like the Bible teaches?
Quote from: "josephpalazzo"Quote from: "bfiddy100"Quote from: "josephpalazzo"Do you realize the bible was written by bronze-age sheep herders who were vastly ignorant of how the universe works, or had a very primitive understanding of human psychology?!??!?
Christians believe the Bible was written by God through men. The claim that the men were ignorant and didn't know much of anything about anything is evidence for the Bible being written by God.
Here's a list of contradictions: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... tions.html (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html)
If the bible is God's words through ignorant people, your God is a fucking moron. Lets put it this way: there should be some evidence that would distinguish real things from fantasy. If there is none-- then it makes sense to conclude they're fantasy.
Did you used to post on Bulk Nutrition forums?
Quote from: "bfiddy100"Quote from: "josephpalazzo"Quote from: "bfiddy100"Christians believe the Bible was written by God through men. The claim that the men were ignorant and didn't know much of anything about anything is evidence for the Bible being written by God.
Here's a list of contradictions: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... tions.html (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html)
If the bible is God's words through ignorant people, your God is a fucking moron. Lets put it this way: there should be some evidence that would distinguish real things from fantasy. If there is none-- then it makes sense to conclude they're fantasy.
Did you used to post on Bulk Nutrition forums?
WTF
If you want to troll, there are plenty of forums you can do that.
> Well, we're going down quite a rabbit trail now. But the Bible teaches that the earth is a sphere, not flat (Luke 17:34-35).
Those verses read, "34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."
No reference to a sphere. (In the reference you are thinking of, the earth is described as a circle, not a sphere.) However, in Daniel 4:10-11, the king "saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds." That could only be possible if the earth were flat. Also, in Matt 4:8, Satan takes Jesus to the top of a mountain so high they could see"all the kingdoms of the earth." That could only be possible if the earth were flat.
In Joshua 10:12, 13, and Habakkuk 3:11, the sun is said to stand still. That could only happen if it normally went around the earth, not the other way around.
1 Chronicles 16:30, Psalms 93:1, and Psalms 96:10 state unequivocally that the earth never moves.
> And the commandment is not to take innocent life. No contradiction there.
You are lying. Read the Bible. That verse says nothing about "innocent." Even if it did, there are many places where your god instructs people to kill innocents. And there are many other contradictions.
> But I wonder what good it would do if God revealed to you that the Bible was true. Would you then agree that you are evil and deserve to go to hell like the Bible teaches?
Sure. Why doesn't he do that? Why does he make it look like there is no god, and the Bible is a crock? He must not want me to believe.
Frank
Quote from: "Tabula Rasa":-x I just don't get it! Do they not realise what they are saying? Those victims were REAL people with families! How can Christians justify this horror? This is the god they love and serve.
I'd like your thoughts on this.
-TR
Psychologically speaking, christians are genuinely disfunctional. For the majority, religion is either a coping mechanism or a shared cultural belief, thus their sense of logic and reason are based around maintaining their beliefs, rather then looking at things objectively and rationally.
Looking at it from an evolution/nature perspective, it could be said that religion is a primal response to the survivability and wellbeing of the mind along with cultural acceptance. For example, an abused or neglected child by his parents is likely to be involved in religion as the prospect of a powerful deity who loves him replaces what he feels is missing in his life. His dedication to maintaining that belief system is one of self-preservation, rather then something that has any credibility or truth to it.
The fact that the belief system involves genocide, rape, etc is irrelevant; what's most important to the individual is his own peace of mind.
Quote from: "bfiddy100"Christians believe the Bible was written by God through men. The claim that the men were ignorant and didn't know much of anything about anything is evidence for the Bible being written by God. The more you attack the men God used to write the Bible the more you provide evidence for the claim that Someone more intelligent was actually behind it. If a bunch of really smart, worldly people wrote the Bible then we shouldn't be too surprised that it became the world's best-seller.
But that's just stupid. The Bible LOOKS as if it was written by people who had very primitive views of nature and human behavior, as well as barbaric ideas of how justice should be meted out. Their laws are very misogynistic and pro-slavery, they were extremely warlike, and the god they worshiped reflected all of that. If someone more intelligent than the ruling classes were behind the Bible, then we would expect to see evidence of that. There is none. It is written in accordance with the social and religious practices that were very common among many peoples of the time.
Quote from: "FrankDK"> Well, we're going down quite a rabbit trail now. But the Bible teaches that the earth is a sphere, not flat (Luke 17:34-35).
Those verses read, "34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."
No reference to a sphere. (In the reference you are thinking of, the earth is described as a circle, not a sphere.) However, in Daniel 4:10-11, the king "saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds." That could only be possible if the earth were flat. Also, in Matt 4:8, Satan takes Jesus to the top of a mountain so high they could see"all the kingdoms of the earth." That could only be possible if the earth were flat.
In Joshua 10:12, 13, and Habakkuk 3:11, the sun is said to stand still. That could only happen if it normally went around the earth, not the other way around.
1 Chronicles 16:30, Psalms 93:1, and Psalms 96:10 state unequivocally that the earth never moves.
> And the commandment is not to take innocent life. No contradiction there.
You are lying. Read the Bible. That verse says nothing about "innocent." Even if it did, there are many places where your god instructs people to kill innocents. And there are many other contradictions.
> But I wonder what good it would do if God revealed to you that the Bible was true. Would you then agree that you are evil and deserve to go to hell like the Bible teaches?
Sure. Why doesn't he do that? Why does he make it look like there is no god, and the Bible is a crock? He must not want me to believe.
Frank
I get the impression you've never actually read the Bible and just copy and paste other peoples' work.
The commandment is, in fact, specified as innocent life.
Exodus 23:7 NASB
Keep far from a false charge, and do not kill the innocent or the righteous, for I will not acquit the guilty.
Luke 17:34-35 describe some people experiencing night and some people experiencing day when an event happens. That's pretty tough with a flat earth. As a bonus, it also shows Jesus' claim to be Savior of the world, and not just Israel.
The Bible does teach that faith is a gift and God isn't obligated to give it to anyone, let alone everyone. We are rebels against God, who alone is good. We deserve only punishment, not gifts. Giving us faith is like a judge giving a murderer a new car instead of sending them to prison. That is why Christ died for our sins. So that God could give us gifts and still be good.
Quote from: "bfiddy100"I get the impression you've never actually read the Bible and just copy and paste other peoples' work.
Did you really say that right after he quoted the damn book to you?
(//http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/588/827/f67.png)
Quote from: "bfiddy100"The Bible does teach that faith is a gift and God isn't obligated to give it to anyone, let alone everyone. We are rebels against God, who alone is good. We deserve only punishment, not gifts. Giving us faith is like a judge giving a murderer a new car instead of sending them to prison. That is why Christ died for our sins. So that God could give us gifts and still be good.
According to the Bible, God does not merely punish people. He routinely slaughters them in droves and creates laws designed to make people treat each other in as cruel a manner as possible (//http://www.creationtheory.org/BibleStudy/Ref-Violence.xhtml).
These are not the actions of a kind and loving deity, regardless of anything he did at a later date.If we focus on the parts of the Bible that contradict your philosophy, it is only because you and people like you routinely ignore those parts.
Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"According to the Bible, God does not merely punish people. He routinely slaughters them in droves and creates laws designed to make people treat each other in as cruel a manner as possible (//http://www.creationtheory.org/BibleStudy/Ref-Violence.xhtml). These are not the actions of a kind and loving deity, regardless of anything he did at a later date.
If we focus on the parts of the Bible that contradict your philosophy, it is only because you and people like you routinely ignore those parts.
I don't ignore those parts. Was Obama evil for having Bin Laden slaughtered? Should he have sent Bin Laden some gifts after locating him instead? The sins that each and every person has committed against God are worse than the crimes Bin Laden committed against humanity. You don't think so because you think you're a good person. If people are good then I agree with you that God would be evil for treating them the way He has. But people are evil, not good. And therefore God shows His goodness and hatred of evil when He 'slaughters' them.
A truly good (and powerful) person would have, after locating Bin Laden, taught him how to repair the damage he caused. Killing him is the response of a petty, vindictive and weak creature that does not possess the power to deal with evil.
So I guess that if your god is petty, vindictive, and weak what you're saying makes sense. Otherwise, it does not, because anyone with any kind of real power would be able to repair evil instead of destroying it. Destroying something is always a sign of being too weak to fix it.
Quote from: "bfiddy100"Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"According to the Bible, God does not merely punish people. He routinely slaughters them in droves and creates laws designed to make people treat each other in as cruel a manner as possible (//http://www.creationtheory.org/BibleStudy/Ref-Violence.xhtml). These are not the actions of a kind and loving deity, regardless of anything he did at a later date.
If we focus on the parts of the Bible that contradict your philosophy, it is only because you and people like you routinely ignore those parts.
I don't ignore those parts. Was Obama evil for having Bin Laden slaughtered? Should he have sent Bin Laden some gifts after locating him instead? The sins that each and every person has committed against God are worse than the crimes Bin Laden committed against humanity. You don't think so because you think you're a good person. If people are good then I agree with you that God would be evil for treating them the way He has. But people are evil, not good. And therefore God shows His goodness and hatred of evil when He 'slaughters' them.
Holy smokes :shock: This is for real? Evil actions are good if this god commit them ? I honestly can't laugh from this .
Quote from: "bfiddy100"I don't ignore those parts.
Oh dear, you're one of
those. *cracks knuckles* Let's get this over with.
Quote from: "bfiddy100"Was Obama evil for having Bin Laden slaughtered?
Yes. Killing a sentient being for any reason beyond immediate self-defense is evil. A truly good person would have had the man stand trial, pay for his crimes, and then try to reform him. This is pretty much Humanism 101.
Quote from: "bfiddy100"Should he have sent Bin Laden some gifts after locating him instead?
It's very telling that you seem to think the options are limited to "death" or "gifts." Your worldview must require a painfully simplistic mindset.
Quote from: "bfiddy100"The sins that each and every person has committed against God are worse than the crimes Bin Laden committed against humanity.
Bin Laden killed some 3000 people on 9/11, and his organization has been responsible for many more deaths since then. According to the Bible, the worst thing humans ever did to God was eat a fucking fruit. Most people would just have you pay the $10 restitution and call it a day.
Quote from: "bfiddy100"You don't think so because you think you're a good person.
Last time I checked, I haven't been personally responsible for any form of murder, rape, slavery, oppression, or all-around reprehensible behavior. I pay my taxes, look after me and mine, donate to charity, and overall make my contribution to society. I ain't exactly a hero for the ages, but I'm alright.
Quote from: "bfiddy100"If people are good then I agree with you that God would be evil for treating them the way He has. But people are evil, not good.
If all people are evil because the first two protagonists in your preferred fairy tale ate a fucking fruit, you have an odd sense of moral priorities. Regardless, if your god were a good and loving person, then the Bible would be full of stories with him trying to reform people, not massacring the shit out of their population.
Quote from: "bfiddy100"And therefore God shows His goodness and hatred of evil when He 'slaughters' them.
Hatred of evil makes you no better. Your god is evil. Accept it.
Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Yes. Killing a sentient being for any reason beyond immediate self-defense is evil. A truly good person would have had the man stand trial, pay for his crimes, and then try to reform him. This is pretty much Humanism 101.
Humanism 101 by whose standards?
And at what period of time?
It's important to keep in mind that ethics and morality are man-made systems .. much like religion ;) And as with all things man-made, the definition and parameters of it will change from one society to the next, and from one generation to the next.
ie what you and others at this point in time might define as good and evil will differ to someone else from another region of the earth and/or in a different time period.
And this is probably why christians struggle with the prospect of ethics and morality outside of their religion - for it is their god that dictates these things as a universal construct that never changes. Unfortunately it presents problems for societies, and religious and non-religious will engage in more conflicts as time passes by.
Quote from: "bfiddy100"people are evil, not good. And therefore God shows His goodness and hatred of evil when He 'slaughters' them.
Hence why many consider christianity to be one of the most inhumane and corrupt belief systems in the world.
The concept of a deity setting laws to define good vs evil, only then to commit those same evil acts and to justify it is a corrupt dictatorship. Christopher Hitchens compares this sort of system to North Korea.
Quote from: "Sulaco"It's important to keep in mind that ethics and morality are man-made systems .. much like religion ;)
I know. What I'm doing is called, "speaking in terms they'll understand." :wink:
Jesus offers you the free gift of eternal life...............your choice and free.......
No thanks??
Burn in hell then............
Some free gift.........
I never remember being offered a free gift that I refused, which had a consequence to it........let alone one like that.
Here........have a free dinner......
No thanks not hungry.....
Well then starve to death!
> I get the impression you've never actually read the Bible
That's why going with your impressions is dangerous: they are often wrong. I've read the Bible cover to cover. I don't pretend to have it memorized, but I do have portions of it committed to memory, and remember where significant issues are covered.
> and just copy and paste other peoples' work.
You mean like you did when you pasted a reference to "sphere" that didn't have the word "sphere" or "circle" in it?
> The commandment is, in fact, specified as innocent life.
Exodus 23:7 NASB
> Keep far from a false charge, and do not kill the innocent or the righteous, for I will not acquit the guilty.
You are clearly a cafeteria Christian. You pick and choose from the Bible. Consider:
Exodus 20:13: Thou shalt not kill.
Deuteronomy 5:17: Thou shalt not kill.
No mention of "innocent." Those are the two from what is generally (but wrongly) considered to be The Ten Commandments. What you've done is not cover up a contradiction but highlight yet another one. Spare no one, or spare just the innocent? Besides, there are many places in which your god instructs his chosen people to kill innocents. Consider:
Numbers 31:17-18: Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. [Moses speaking for God.]
You're right about it being a rabbit hole. No matter how blatant the contradiction, you will find a way to avoid admitting to it. For example, if I point out that Matt 27:5 says that Judas (the betrayer of Jesus) hanged himself, and that Acts 1:18 says he died of a fall, you will say something preposterous like he hanged himself, the rope broke, and he fell. If that were true, it means that both the references are wrong, since each leaves out a critical part.
I noticed that you have avoided responding to the flat, unmoving earth references. Those are pretty hard to argue against without appearing willfully ignorant.
Frank
An oldie, but a goodie..
(//http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/DWB/no_estimates.jpg)
As a recent convert to atheism, I will attempt to address the original topic in my old, Christian viewpoint.
God has allowed the events of our world to guide themselves to an end that he has already seen. People die all the time, every day, and it's not God's fault. We ate the freakin' fruit after all. If you blame God for all of the evil in the world, you must also blame him for all of the good . . . yes, you are blaming him . . . . no, that's not saying anything different . . . . you're still blaming him . . . . why do you keep blaming him . . . . . la la la la, I can't hear you . . . . you really should stop blaming him . . . . . no, fuck you!
Quote from: "Coyote"As a recent convert to atheism, I will attempt to address the original topic in my old, Christian viewpoint.
God has allowed the events of our world to guide themselves to an end that he has already seen. People die all the time, every day, and it's not God's fault. We ate the freakin' fruit after all. If you blame God for all of the evil in the world, you must also blame him for all of the good . . . yes, you are blaming him . . . . no, that's not saying anything different . . . . you're still blaming him . . . . why do you keep blaming him . . . . . la la la la, I can't hear you . . . . you really should stop blaming him . . . . . no, fuck you!
Bingo!
Frank
Quote from: "Tabula Rasa"I brought up some tough issues for some Christians to address about their god's justice. God foreknew that the Holocaust would happen, and people would die as Jews. Jews by definition do not accept Jesus as their saviour; therefore, those who died in the Holocaust as Jews went to hell. Yet God created them anyway?
" Hell" is "death". All people die, not Jews only. But God saved all those Jews from death 2000 years ago. He atoned for all people. Jews are part of all people. Those Jews will resurrect and live again. :-D
Quote from: "PickelledEggs"Quote from: "Solitary"Will someone explain to me what good any religion has done for any sentient creature outside of false hope that doesn't really help anyone but make them feel better like a psychiatrist. A bar tender can do that and better with two drinks. :shock: :lol: Solitary
The ONLY thing I can think of is consoling someone of the fear of death, for either themselves or for one of their loved ones. I can imagine that being of some help to someone of the extremely faint of heart.
And like I said that makes them feel better. If you think consoling can take away someone's fear you are wrong. That's like saying consoling can take away pain. Solitary
Quote from: "bfiddy100"Quote from: "FrankDK"> Christians believe the Bible was written by God through men. The claim that the men were ignorant and didn't know much of anything about anything is evidence for the Bible being written by God. The more you attack the men God used to write the Bible the more you provide evidence for the claim that Someone more intelligent was actually behind it. If a bunch of really smart, worldly people wrote the Bible then we shouldn't be too surprised that it became the world's best-seller.
Hardly. The Bible says that the earth is flat, that the sun revolves around the earth and not the other way around, that diseases are caused by evil spirits, and loads of other malarkey.
One of many contradictions:
Exodus 20:13: Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 32:27: Put, every man, his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and everyman his neighbor.
In the Bible, your god is inadvertently made out to be an idiot, a liar, a murderer, and a psychopath. If it had been written by a god, it would have no errors, contradictions, or stupidity in it.
The reason it has become a best-seller is the Roman short sword. In Nazi Germany, the best seller was Mein Kampf. That didn't make it true or written by a god.
Frank
Well, we're going down quite a rabbit trail now. But the Bible teaches that the earth is a sphere, not flat (Luke 17:34-35).
And the commandment is not to take innocent life. No contradiction there.
But I wonder what good it would do if God revealed to you that the Bible was true. Would you then agree that you are evil and deserve to go to hell like the Bible teaches?
It also teaches the sun stood still and revolves around the earth. You know what, If God revealed the Bible, whatever one you want, is true, I'll publically give him a blowjob and I'm not gay. :roll: Solitary
Quote from: "bfiddy100"Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"According to the Bible, God does not merely punish people. He routinely slaughters them in droves and creates laws designed to make people treat each other in as cruel a manner as possible (//http://www.creationtheory.org/BibleStudy/Ref-Violence.xhtml). These are not the actions of a kind and loving deity, regardless of anything he did at a later date.
If we focus on the parts of the Bible that contradict your philosophy, it is only because you and people like you routinely ignore those parts.
I don't ignore those parts. Was Obama evil for having Bin Laden slaughtered? Should he have sent Bin Laden some gifts after locating him instead? The sins that each and every person has committed against God are worse than the crimes Bin Laden committed against humanity. You don't think so because you think you're a good person. If people are good then I agree with you that God would be evil for treating them the way He has. But people are evil, not good. And therefore God shows His goodness and hatred of evil when He 'slaughters' them.
If Obama purposely killed innocent woman and child like God has done he would be evil. You're comparing apples to oranges and not being logical. Was Bush and Cheney evil when they told a lie and got millions killed? What are you 12 years old? :roll: Solitary
Quote from: "bfiddy100"Quote from: "FrankDK"> Well, we're going down quite a rabbit trail now. But the Bible teaches that the earth is a sphere, not flat (Luke 17:34-35).
Those verses read, "34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."
No reference to a sphere. (In the reference you are thinking of, the earth is described as a circle, not a sphere.) However, in Daniel 4:10-11, the king "saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds." That could only be possible if the earth were flat. Also, in Matt 4:8, Satan takes Jesus to the top of a mountain so high they could see"all the kingdoms of the earth." That could only be possible if the earth were flat.
In Joshua 10:12, 13, and Habakkuk 3:11, the sun is said to stand still. That could only happen if it normally went around the earth, not the other way around.
1 Chronicles 16:30, Psalms 93:1, and Psalms 96:10 state unequivocally that the earth never moves.
> And the commandment is not to take innocent life. No contradiction there.
You are lying. Read the Bible. That verse says nothing about "innocent." Even if it did, there are many places where your god instructs people to kill innocents. And there are many other contradictions.
> But I wonder what good it would do if God revealed to you that the Bible was true. Would you then agree that you are evil and deserve to go to hell like the Bible teaches?
Sure. Why doesn't he do that? Why does he make it look like there is no god, and the Bible is a crock? He must not want me to believe.
Frank
I get the impression you've never actually read the Bible and just copy and paste other peoples' work.
The commandment is, in fact, specified as innocent life.
Exodus 23:7 NASB
Keep far from a false charge, and do not kill the innocent or the righteous, for I will not acquit the guilty.
Luke 17:34-35 describe some people experiencing night and some people experiencing day when an event happens. That's pretty tough with a flat earth. As a bonus, it also shows Jesus' claim to be Savior of the world, and not just Israel.
The Bible does teach that faith is a gift and God isn't obligated to give it to anyone, let alone everyone. We are rebels against God, who alone is good. We deserve only punishment, not gifts. Giving us faith is like a judge giving a murderer a new car instead of sending them to prison. That is why Christ died for our sins. So that God could give us gifts and still be good.
You really don't want to go there, and here is why. Most people at this forum not only know the New Testaments, but the Old and many Bible that are printed. If you want to debate the Bible and make a fool out of yourself I'm all ears. Have you read the Bible is the question. Here is just a very small part you missed or ignore:
QuoteExodus
Moses murders an Egyptian after making sure that no one is looking. 2:11-12
"And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD." Who else could be so cruel and unjust? 7:5, 17
God wants to be remembered forever for the mass murder of little children. 10:2
To commemorate the divine massacre of the Egyptian children, Moses instructs the Israelites to "sacrifice to the Lord all that openeth the matrix" -- all the males, that is. God has no use for dead, burnt female bodies. 13:2, 12, 15
A child who hits or curses his parents must be executed. 21:15, 17
:roll: #-o Solitary
Quote from: "Solitary"If Obama purposely killed innocent woman and child like God has done he would be evil.
Yes, he would be evil. But there is a BIG difference between Obama and God of Israel. According to God of Israel He can restore what is taken. God can resurrect those who He kills. Obama can not do this. Obama can only turn USA to USSR. Only communists could tell me that they know better then I do what is good for me. I smell marksism. I know this smell. I recognize it. :twisted: :evil:
Quote from: "Solitary"You really don't want to go there, and here is why. Most people at this forum not only know the New Testaments, but the Old and many Bible that are printed. If you want to debate the Bible and make a fool out of yourself I'm all ears. Have you read the Bible is the question. Here is just a very small part you missed or ignore:
Some of us have even read the non-canon books rejected at the council of Nicaea that didn't make the cut for the Bible.
Quote from: "Eve"But there is a BIG difference between Obama and God of Israel.
Yep. Obama is a nigger, but god of Israel is a Jew.
Quote from: "Eve"Quote from: "Solitary"If Obama purposely killed innocent woman and child like God has done he would be evil.
Yes, he would be evil. But there is a BIG difference between Obama and God of Israel. According to God of Israel He can restore what is taken. God can resurrect those who He kills. Obama can not do this. Obama can only turn USA to USSR. Only communists could tell me that they know better then I do what is good for me. I smell marksism. I know this smell. I recognize it. :twisted: :evil:
And you have evidence that God can do this? So how does that take away the fact that your God does evil? He can't take away the pain and suffering from His evil acts. :rollin: :roll: Solitary
Quote from: "Eugeny Anatolievich"Quote from: "Eve"But there is a BIG difference between Obama and God of Israel.
Yep. Obama is a nigger, but god of Israel is a Jew.
He! He! [-X :-$ Solitary
Anything wrong?
Quote from: "Eugeny Anatolievich"Quote from: "Eve"But there is a BIG difference between Obama and God of Israel.
Yep. Obama is a nigger, but god of Israel is a Jew.
This is not the only difference. But I don't think it is very nice to use n-word unless You are liberal. They can say what ever they want. :-D
Jenya, here in USA it is offensive. Good people don't want to offend anybody.
Quote from: "Solitary"And you have evidence that God can do this?
Of course not. Biblical character Jehovah is not evil because He can give life back to those whom He kills.
Quote from: "Solitary"So how does that take away the fact that your God does evil?
What kind of evil? and what is evil?
Quote from: "Solitary"He can't take away the pain and suffering from His evil acts. :rollin: :roll: Solitary
According to Him He can.
Quote from: "Eve"But I don't think it is very nice to use n-word unless You are liberal. They can say what ever they want.
Jenya, here in USA it is offensive.
The word 'nigger' is not offensive in Russia. It's a neutral word. Do you like movie "Maximka"?
(//http://twic.ru/dvd/images/dvd125.gif)
Quote from: "Eve"Quote from: "Solitary"And you have evidence that God can do this?
Of course not. Biblical character Jehovah is not evil because He can give life back to those whom He kills.
Quote from: "Solitary"So how does that take away the fact that your God does evil?
What kind of evil? and what is evil?
Quote from: "Solitary"He can't take away the pain and suffering from His evil acts. :rollin: :roll: Solitary
According to Him He can.
According to Him you are a Tea Bagger, and since He knows it all He knows what that means. :shock: :rollin: 8-) Solitary
:popcorn: :popcorn:
Quote from: "Eve"Quote from: "Solitary"And you have evidence that God can do this?
Of course not. Biblical character Jehovah is not evil because He can give life back to those whom He kills.
But he doesn't. Millions of people have died in some of the most horrific ways imaginable, and they are never brought back to life or healed.
QuoteQuote from: "Solitary"So how does that take away the fact that your God does evil?
What kind of evil? and what is evil?
Quote from: "Solitary"He can't take away the pain and suffering from His evil acts. :rollin: :roll: Solitary
According to Him He can.
[/quote]
No, according to people who made up this imaginary god figure he can. So far, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that anyone has ever been brought back to life after being horribly murdered, nor has anyone's suffering or pain been lessened by this imaginary god.
You can fantasize all you want and make baseless claims about how great this imaginary god is, but the fact remains that not a single instance of evil has been lessened that can be attributed to him. Shit, I might as well claim that I have special god powers, but choose not to use them...I wouldn't be any different from this god character as far as the world is concerned.
Words are meaningless. Action is required.
Good point :)