Be it other races, other religions, homosexuals, or atheists, are we programmed to hate what is different?
(For a lot of us, I guess Theists would be our target.)
Certainly evolution in social groups that competed for territory and resources promoted animosity towards other groups. And it seems that hate towards "others" is pretty easy to whip up among the rabble. But I don't think we need something to hate.
Frank
Sometimes I wonder if we as a species need some kind of conflict.
> Sometimes I wonder if we as a species need some kind of conflict.
There certainly is a desire for conflict, even if artificial. That explains the popularity of sports events.
Frank
Quote from: "Mermaid"Sometimes I wonder if we as a species need some kind of conflict.
We do tend to thrive on conflict, though violent conflict is arguably more harmful than beneficial.
Everyone loves a good conflict. Conflicts are the bedrock of stories. And everyday competitions too numerous to list.
Athletics is interesting in that at times, it seems vaguely warlike. American football matches in particular seem to bear a certain semblance to ancient battlefields.
An excellent example. It's also a recurring theme that's pervasive in human cultures. There is always a dark side to everything. Like yin and yang, the evil queen in snow white, and then there's, you know, Satan.
(//http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QYSmr-APz24/T52RhAcl8ZI/AAAAAAAAAGc/ci5a1FPclcY/s320/Church-Lady6%2B%25282%2529.jpg)
I consider myself a pretty competitive person, so yeah I would say conflict is something that is both beneficial and detrimental.
Competition is only one side of the coin: cooperation is the balancing force, I think.
But what about HATE. I mean the urge to kill kind of thing (not murder, but the thought behind it). The irrational thing.
Competition was a nice balance that humanity invented to help take the place of war. Even though it was just as bloody and deadly it was far less people involved. But then perhaps great battles took place and people would say, "what a great fight, it was a shame he had to die" and perhaps over time people started looking at their champions as people and not throwaway soldiers and the idea of mandatory death changed to a yearly challenge.
The idea of competition also changed with the advent of the printing press because words became powerful tools that feeble and weak wordmasters could use as potent weapons against trained and skilled soldiers. The beginning of the "civilized society".
Competitiveness is built into our nature for a reason, stemming from competing for mates and tribal hierarchies. Cultural conflicts probably stemmed originally from territorial issues, or resource issues. Now it is other reasons, cultural and religious and so forth.
People can certainly hate each other, but I don't know if that is natural or learned.
Quote from: "Solomon Zorn"Do humans need something to hate?
I don't hold a special tolerant place in my heart for individuals or organisations that impact on me in a negative way.
I think this is a normal and healthy reaction in response to things that mean to do me harm.
Quote from: "Solomon Zorn"Do humans need something to hate?
I don't know, but I do.
I don't think I need someone to hate, but there are people who do such terrible things that it results in my having no love for them.
It seems to me, that hate is normal and bred into us. I don't think it is healthy or rational. We are thinking beings, and can if we want to, see hate for what it is.
Hate usually comes from fear. And of course, many use fear to manipulate us. I don't like being manipulated. Therefore, I try to recognize what the real agenda is behind those who want me to fear something. Usually, it is a desire for resources which the "others" have. Not a good excuse to hate though. Not for me anyway.
Way back in the dark ages, when I was a teenager, the coach used to get mad at me for not hating my athletic opponents. Which never made sense to me. Of course, I didn't give a damn about winning or losing, I just wanted to have fun and get some exercise. Now it makes me mad, that the coaches try to get people to hate their opponents. Why? Without opponents, how can you play the game?
Anyway, it may be natural and all, but I think it is illogical to hate.
I hate mostly people who spread fear. I guess because I fear them (not what they want me to fear).
Overcoming hate would seem to be synonymous with overcoming fear. What if it's a justified fear rather than an irrational one? Does that justify the hate?
I also hate "creepy crawlers", like centipedes and Pat Robertson. [-X
Quote from: "Solomon Zorn"But what about HATE. I mean the urge to kill kind of thing (not murder, but the thought behind it). The irrational thing.
Imagine a gene developing in Australopithecus that made some kid not hate leopards.
Now, after the leopard finished that easy snack ...
Hate may be the other side of fear, but it's probably about as much a part of us as the sucking reflex. Can we "get rid" of it? Probably not. We can act rationally, but we can't change who and what we are.
Solomon Zorn wrote in part:
QuoteOvercoming hate would seem to be synonymous with overcoming fear. What if it's a justified fear rather than an irrational one? Does that justify the hate?
What justifies acting irrational? Taking Colanth's analogy, suppose the kid that hated leopards, decided he had to go out and attack the leopards by himself with a big stick. Same thing happens. The kid becomes a snack for the leopard. Now, if he acts rationally, he builds a barrier to keep the leopards from getting at him. Tadaa! Here we are. =D>
If the hate causes an irrational action, then it is irrational regardless of how rational the fear is. IMHO.
Solomon Zorn wrote in part:
QuoteI also hate "creepy crawlers", like centipedes and Pat Robertson. [-X
It is irrational to hate "creepy crawlers." Whereas, hating Pat Robertson is the exception which proves the rule. :axe
Quote from: "LikelyToBreak"Solomon Zorn wrote in part:QuoteI also hate "creepy crawlers", like centipedes and Pat Robertson. [-X
It is irrational to hate "creepy crawlers." Whereas, hating Pat Robertson is the exception which proves the rule. :axe
Hating "creepy crawlers" is genetic, in part. Millipedes can cause allergic reactions (it's not really poison, but if you die the effect is the same). Some spiders are poisonous. Some snakes are poisonous.
Ancestors of ours who liked playing with creepy crawlers were probably collateral ancestors - they didn't live long enough to be direct ancestors. (Natural selection's not all that complex.)
Quote from: "Solomon Zorn"Be it other races, other religions, homosexuals, or atheists, are we programmed to hate what is different?
(For a lot of us, I guess Theists would be our target.)
Well, I think we are all sinners and therefore proned to doing and acting in evil ways, but I don't know if it would technically qualify as being programmed to hate. Personally, I can't think of anyone I genuinely hate, unless we're talking about rapists, muderers, etc... And even there, I should probably have a bit more compassion and focus more my desire to see justice in those cases than any genuine hatred I have for them.
But there is a lot of hatred. You see it amongst all groups, including professing Christians. I've been attacked multiple times here by various atheists, but I've learned to expect that. I don't know how much of it is hate and how much of it is fear of having the strength of their own convictions threatened by the presence of someone who doesn't share them.
I don't hate you Gomtuu. In fact I used to see the world much the way you do. I commend your willingness to brave this forum. There can be a little name calling, so you need a thick skin. But be sure to distinguish the attacks on your person from attacks on your reasoning.
Quote from: "gomtuu77"Quote from: "Solomon Zorn"Be it other races, other religions, homosexuals, or atheists, are we programmed to hate what is different?
(For a lot of us, I guess Theists would be our target.)
Well, I think we are all sinners and therefore proned to doing and acting in evil ways
You say this to a group of people who you KNOW don't believe in sin or evil, yet you want us to talk to you bearing your beliefs in mind. Don't be annoyed when we ignore your viewpoint the way you ignore ours.
(If you don't know that we don't believe in sin or evil, you should study atheism before you continue posting here, since that would mean that you know nothing about atheism - and it's foolish to post about something you know nothing about.)
Quote from: "Mermaid"Sometimes I wonder if we as a species need some kind of conflict.
I'm sure that's true for some people if for nothing more than to add interest to an otherwise boring life. Hate (I prefer the word hostility) is sometimes appropriate. But I think for some people, it's just a habit. Most of the time, I think hate is a waste of good energy.
Quote from: "Mermaid"Sometimes I wonder if we as a species need some kind of conflict.
Maybe not need but as a species that evolved to survive and doing so requiring an ability to deal with, and instigate conflict, it is hard wired into our DNA.
See:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Other (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Other)
It's been a central debating issue for international relations scholars for almost as long as IR has been a concept people thought about.
The wiki page above gives some preliminary philosophical and scientific texts to read up on :)
Quote from: "gomtuu77"But there is a lot of hatred. You see it amongst all groups, including professing Christians. I've been attacked multiple times here by various atheists, but I've learned to expect that. I don't know how much of it is hate and how much of it is fear of having the strength of their own convictions threatened by the presence of someone who doesn't share them.
You up on your soapbox again?
Nobody is 'threatened' by the chrisitian faith here, at least not in an intellectual sense (and by that I'm excluding in a physical sense, which is really testament to how sad the reality is for some people).
Remember when I said you had a victim complex? What you posted is really the epitome of what I am getting at. Sheesh. Maybe you'd feel less like you were under 'attack' (you're not) if you stopped posting nonsense about sin and all that bollocks that you know (as Colanth iterates aboves) nobody on this forum believes or has a concept of.
But by all means, keep ignoring what people reply to you and persist in posting bollocks, and keep believing that it's our attitude which is the issue and not yours. If you take that as an 'attack' on you, or something filled with 'hate', that I'm cool with that. It's your delusion after all.
People's ignorance doesn't make me angry or hateful, it's there animosity towards someone they don't agree with that makes them want to hurt that person because they are ignorant jerks. Who were the biggest jerks in school? The same ones here that want to hurt people to fill their inflated egos to prove to themselves they are smarter and better as if that proves them right. :roll: :popcorn: Solitary
Quote from: "gomtuu77"But there is a lot of hatred. You see it amongst all groups, including professing Christians. I've been attacked multiple times here by various atheists, but I've learned to expect that. I don't know how much of it is hate and how much of it is fear of having the strength of their own convictions threatened by the presence of someone who doesn't share them.
Atheism isn't a conviction, it's lack of one particular conviction - we're not convinced that there's any god. (Yes, I know that you've been brainwashed to believe that atheism is the positive conviction that there's no god, so there's no need for you to repeat your erroneous assertion.) The fact that you do think there's one isn't going to convince us that your delusion is real. Especially when we see the actual reason that Constantine started Christianity, the lies that have had to be entrenched into it to bolster it over the centuries, the documented history that shows its claims to be false, the sciences that do the same, etc., etc., etc. You're talking about mountains of evidence on our side and less than a mustard seed's worth on your side, so if you live to be 100, and spend every single second of the rest of your life showing us "the error of our ways", one emotion you won't raise in any of us is fear. Amusement, definitely. Hatred (of your pushing your stupidity on us), probably. But fear? Are you really afraid that Zeus may be real? That's how much we'll ever fear your lack of sharing "our convictions".
See, that's the point you Christians never fail to miss: To us, your god is exactly the same as Zeus is to Christians - nonsense that some not-too-well-educated people believed. Jesus is to us like Osiris is to you. If you want to know how we'd react to any particular situation regarding Christianity, think of how you'd react to that situation regarding Zoroastrianism.
Fear? That we'll hurt ourselves laughing at you, maybe.
(I don't know how long you've been discussing theism/atheism with atheists. I've been discussing it with theists for over 60 years, so I don't think you can come up with anything I didn't already respond to decades ago.)