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Science Section => Science General Discussion => Topic started by: Solitary on August 01, 2013, 01:28:12 AM

Title: Scientific Proof Is Almost An Oxymoron
Post by: Solitary on August 01, 2013, 01:28:12 AM
There is a widely held notion by theist, and even atheist, that does a lot of damage to science: the notion that something is scientifically proven. The very foundation of science is to keep the door open to doubt unlike religious beliefs. Precisely because science questions everything, especially the scientific premises, even evolution, science improves our knowledge. Therefore a good scientists is never certain that he has absolute truth.

Lack of certainty is precisely what makes conclusions more reliable than those of religion that are believed without a doubt on faith only. The reason is that a good scientists is more than willing to shift to different point of view if better evidence or argument is brought about. Therefore certainty is not only of something of no use but is also in fact damaging if it is wrong, and also if we value reliability. Failure to appreciate the value of uncertainty is at the origin of much silliness in our society.

Are we certain that the earth is not going to keep heating up if we don't do anything about it?  Are we certain of the details of the current theory of evolution? Are we sure modern medicine is always better than traditional ones? No, we are not, in any of these cases. However, if from this lack of certainty, we jump to the conviction that we need not care about global heating because God is looking out for us, that there is no evolution and the world was created six thousands years ago, or that traditional medicine must be more effective than modern medicine---well then we are being stupid.

However, there are still people that believe this nonsense, because the lack of certainty is percieved as a sign of weakness instead of being what it is---the first source of our knowledge instead of ignorance.  Every bit of knowledge, even the most solid, carries a margin of uncertainty. I'm certain my name is Bill unless I hit my head and get momentarily confused. Knowledge itself is probalistic in nature, a notion emphasized by some aspects of philosophic pragmatism. Just because something seems to work doesn't mean it's the truth.  

However, if it doesn't actually work it has to be wrong---this is shown by religion to be true from 6,000 years of recorded history. The better understanding of probability and especially realizing we don't need "scientifically" proven facts but only sufficiently high degree of probability in order to make decisions. Solitary
Title: Re: Scientific Proof Is Almost An Oxymoron
Post by: SGOS on August 01, 2013, 07:50:15 AM
Quote from: "Solitary"a good scientists is never certain that he has absolute truth.
It's more like science deals in levels of confidence.  Truth is really just a hypothetical extreme at the end of a scale, and is more like a need than an observation about reality.  Humans invent truth to lessen their insecurity.  They will accept many things as truth, not the least of which include opinions and lies.

When theists have no proof to substantiate a cherished belief, they go overboard and reach to the hypothetical extreme and claim ultimate truth. During my religious quest years ago, fundamentalists told me, "You must not have any doubt, because God will know, and you won't enter the kingdom of Heaven."  

Hey good luck with that.  You must accept it as ultimate truth.   High probabilities aren't acceptable.  In poker, this would be betting everything you've got and going "all in" even if the cards in your hand are kind of shitty.
Title: Re: Scientific Proof Is Almost An Oxymoron
Post by: Mermaid on August 01, 2013, 07:54:46 AM
Right. If a light flashes red every time for years and years, there is no absolute proof that it won't flash green at some point. It's just common sense and confidence that it won't.
Scientists do not prove. We look for the plausible explanation based on unbiased facts and observations.
Title: Re: Scientific Proof Is Almost An Oxymoron
Post by: SGOS on August 01, 2013, 09:43:20 AM
I remember back in my Christian days being interrogated by a fundamentalist.

"Do you believe in God?"
"Yes, I believe in God."

"No, do you really believe?"
"Yes, I believe."

"I mean do you really really believe beyond a doubt?"

Holy crap.  What did that guy want me to say?  Apparently, none of my responses were good enough.  So then he gets me taking a closer look at my doubt, and of course there are many.  Why doesn't God appear?  Why when I pray, does it seem like there's no one at the other end?  Why have I only heard about miracles, but never see one?  It goes on and on.  

I was OK just believing, but now apparently I'm screwed with an eternity of damnation.  There is no place for reason in such a religion.  Yeah, it's possible that this guy's version of truth was just bullshit, but then...  but then, maybe so was my grandmother's.  Maybe everyone else's version of absolute truth is wrong, too.

So maybe it's just a matter of probabilities?  But even probabilities have to based on something more than feelings, opinions, and authority.

"Well," he says, "Look in your heart," whatever that means?  I think it means be honest with yourself, so when I take an honest look "in my heart", I don't actually know. I just fucking don't know.  Looking in my heart leads nowhere... Well, it does lead me to question.  I guess that's somewhere.

And it's all down hill from there.  Eventually, you end up in an atheist forum with a bunch of other lost souls who are cursed and cast into the eternal fire.

We must accept our fate.  If there is an absolute truth, we can never know what it is, and we are all lost in the end.  We can only give it our best shot, and that means probabilities, which are mathematical in nature and lead us in the wrong direction away from absolutes.

What are you going to do? 8-[
Title: Re: Scientific Proof Is Almost An Oxymoron
Post by: WitchSabrina on August 01, 2013, 09:52:35 AM
Quote from: "SGOS"I remember back in my Christian days being interrogated by a fundamentalist.

"Do you believe in God?"
"Yes, I believe in God."

"No, do you really believe?"
"Yes, I believe."

"I mean do you really really believe beyond a doubt?"

Holy crap.  What did that guy want me to say?  Apparently, none of my responses were good enough.  So then he gets me taking a closer look at my doubt, and of course there are many.  Why doesn't God appear?  Why when I pray, does it seem like there's no one at the other end?  Why have I only heard about miracles, but never see one?  It goes on and on.  

I was OK just believing, but now apparently I'm screwed with an eternity of damnation.  There is no place for reason in such a religion.  Yeah, it's possible that this guy's version of truth was just bullshit, but then...  but then, maybe so was my grandmother's.  Maybe everyone else's version of absolute truth is wrong, too.

So maybe it's just a matter of probabilities?  But even probabilities have to based on something more than feelings, opinions, and authority.

"Well," he says, "Look in your heart," whatever that means?  I think it means be honest with yourself, so when I take an honest look "in my heart", I don't actually know. I just fucking don't know.  Looking in my heart leads nowhere... Well, it does lead me to question.  I guess that's somewhere.

And it's all down hill from there.  Eventually, you end up in an atheist forum with a bunch of other lost souls who are cursed and cast into the eternal fire.

We must accept our fate.  If there is an absolute truth, we can never know what it is, and we are all lost in the end.  We can only give it our best shot, and that means probabilities, which are mathematical in nature and lead us in the wrong direction away from absolutes.

What are you going to do? 8-[

Trusts that science - moreso than any other - will likely strive and answer questions.  Who was the first person to utter "Now we have scientific proof"  (when or why?)  I do not know.  So...... yes science does actually leave an opening at the end of its tunnel for further perfecting, further trials, further action and answer.... yes.
It's still a far more rational approach than saying "I believe".  Then waiting on a god who never shows up.
Title: Re: Scientific Proof Is Almost An Oxymoron
Post by: Solitary on August 01, 2013, 10:40:55 AM
Wrong! Old Seer says we are all God.  :-D  Solitary
Title: Re: Scientific Proof Is Almost An Oxymoron
Post by: WitchSabrina on August 01, 2013, 10:47:10 AM
Quote from: "Solitary"Wrong! Old Seer says we are all God.  :-D  Solitary


Pretty sure OldSeer is a douche and not worth listening to.   And of course We are all our own god(s) derrr :rollin:
Title: Re: Scientific Proof Is Almost An Oxymoron
Post by: LikelyToBreak on August 01, 2013, 11:49:22 AM
Solitary, well written.  Makes senses.

I might add, that it seems the more touted the "Scientific Proof" is, the worse the actual "science" really is.
Title: Re: Scientific Proof Is Almost An Oxymoron
Post by: Fidel_Castronaut on August 01, 2013, 12:58:15 PM
Indeed. The core premise of the scientific method is to prove yourself wrong, after all. In many ways the total opposite of the theistic position of trying to prove yourself right.
Title: Re: Scientific Proof Is Almost An Oxymoron
Post by: josephpalazzo on August 01, 2013, 12:59:38 PM
Unlike math and logic, the word "proof" doesn't apply to science. What we have are theories that best explain the data. It goes without saying that such theories are works in progress and, with new data, are subject to different explanation .
Title: Re: Scientific Proof Is Almost An Oxymoron
Post by: Solitary on August 01, 2013, 01:17:53 PM
Quote from: "LikelyToBreak"Solitary, well written.  Makes senses.

I might add, that it seems the more touted the "Scientific Proof" is, the worse the actual "science" really is.


Thanks!  LikelyToBreak, I do better when I calm down.  :wink:  Solitary
Title: Re: Scientific Proof Is Almost An Oxymoron
Post by: Colanth on August 01, 2013, 02:13:13 PM
Quote from: "Fidel_Castronaut"Indeed. The core premise of the scientific method is to prove yourself wrong, after all. In many ways the total opposite of the theistic position of [s:2c71d9g7]trying to prove[/s:2c71d9g7] assuming yourself right.
FIFY
Title: Re: Scientific Proof Is Almost An Oxymoron
Post by: Hydra009 on August 01, 2013, 07:38:06 PM
Quote from: "SGOS"In poker, this would be betting everything you've got and going "all in" even if the cards in your hand are kind of shitty.
For theists, it's like going all in when you've never even seen the cards in the first place but just have a gut feeling that you're going to be lucky today.
Title: Re: Scientific Proof Is Almost An Oxymoron
Post by: Broede on August 01, 2013, 09:16:52 PM
I get what you're trying to say, but I'm pretty confident that gravity is still going to work until I'm dead.  Beyond that, I couldn't give a fuck.
Title: Re: Scientific Proof Is Almost An Oxymoron
Post by: Colanth on August 02, 2013, 12:27:22 AM
But gravity is "only a theory". :)