//http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23259865
A topic I'm quite interested in, thanks for the post.
It's the same story in the United States I believe. We invaded a country for politicians lies and expect soldiers to kill civilians, even little children, and think there isn't going to be impossible guilt to deal with. :cry: :twisted: Solitary
Quote from: "Eric1958"A topic I'm quite interested in, thanks for the post.
You're welcome.
Quote from: "Solitary"It's the same story in the United States I believe. We invaded a country for politicians lies and expect soldiers to kill civilians, even little children, and think there isn't going to be impossible guilt to deal with. :cry: :twisted: Solitary
Our were weak and spineless enough to follow the US military as well. We didn't even choose the war, we just sort of joined in.
I have yet to experience a PM with any balls in my lifetime, and the future doesn't look bright in that regard either.
Quote from: "SilentFutility"We didn't even choose the war, we just sort of joined in.
I think Bush's Lapdog would argue that point.
US deaths in Afghanistan, so far, 2,241. I don't know the suicide figures, but if it even remotely correlates with the UK, it's pretty ugly.
Quote from: "Jmpty"US deaths in Afghanistan, so far, 2,241. I don't know the suicide figures, but if it even remotely correlates with the UK, it's pretty ugly.
On my phone, but I am 95% sure the number I have seen is worse. Add ontop of that PTSD, depression and other mental disorders brought about from war and top that off with a system notorious for not getting vets the help they need...
If you REALLY support the troops, then you should be unquestionably against both the war and the government... both have hurt them more than "terrorism" ever has, and the government adds more insult to injury by destroying what the troops say they fight for.
Quote from: "Shiranu"and top that off with a system notorious for not getting vets the help they need...
There was something on NPR yesterday about there being thousands (tens of thousands? hundreds of thousands?) of vets waiting for benefits for long periods. I wasn't really listening, but I caught that part.
I am a vet. Luckily I never went to war. Still, people blamed me after the Vietnam debacle for supporting baby killing. The servicemen and women who went didn't know what was going on. Didn't have any really good choices in the matter. Yet, they got blamed for the war. When it was Johnson and his rich cronies who sent the military in. But, he felt bad about it. So, he was let off the hook for the whole thing.
Hell, when I enlisted, I just wanted a job. And maybe to travel some. My time in the service was over all a good one for me. But, I have advised my son against going into the service. I no longer trust the government, whether their Republican or Democrat led, to do the right thing by the troops.
The lack of care for veterans is not as well known as it should be. Young people go to terrible places, see terrible things, and do terrible things. Because they trust an untrustworthy government to do the right thing. Then that government can no longer be bothered by them, once their use as thugs is ended.
I know my complaining doesn't do any good. I am too tired to continue more actively trying to change things. But, please don't blame the service people for what the rich bastards in Washington make them do. Like me, most of them are just poor kids looking for a chance to make a comfortable life for themselves. And have no idea how the system really works.
If you know a veteran of these Gulf Wars, please let them know about the Wounded Warriors Project. //http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/ They don't have to be visibly wounded to actually be wounded. PTSD can be a fatal illness. We have lost way too many good people already to not help those we can save.
Quote from: "Colanth"Quote from: "SilentFutility"We didn't even choose the war, we just sort of joined in.
I think Bush's Lapdog would argue that point.
Well my point was that they were lapdogs really.
Yes, they still chose to join in, but not really to serve the UK's best interests nor due to any particular moral obligations.
The master went and the dog followed.
Afghanistan becoming a NATO mission was also a bit of a sick joke. The treaty was originally intended as a deterrence, uniting countries in coming to each others' aid should they be attacked, not to force everyone to join you when you maraud around the world.
In any case, I don't particularly feel that saying no to the US once in a while would harm the UK's interests or the "special relationship", which is skewed anyway and needs rebalancing.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/07/us/de ... .html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/07/us/deployment-factors-found-not-related-to-military-suicide-spike.html?_r=0)
Deployment not related to suicide.
Quote from: "Jmpty"http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/07/us/deployment-factors-found-not-related-to-military-suicide-spike.html?_r=0
Deployment not related to suicide.
If they are blaming the high incidence of other factors like substance abuse, relationship problems, mental health issues etc., how can they be sure that these are not exacerbated by combat stress?
Quote from: "SilentFutility"Quote from: "Jmpty"http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/07/us/deployment-factors-found-not-related-to-military-suicide-spike.html?_r=0
Deployment not related to suicide.
If they are blaming the high incidence of other factors like substance abuse, relationship problems, mental health issues etc., how can they be sure that these are not exacerbated by combat stress?
They can't. Even an idiot can see that all of those factors could easily be caused by deployment.
"Using data from the National Death Index and Defense Department personnel records, the researchers found among the group 83 service members who committed suicide, of whom 58 percent had never deployed."
Quote from: "Jmpty""Using data from the National Death Index and Defense Department personnel records, the researchers found among the group 83 service members who committed suicide, of whom 58 percent had never deployed."
What is that quote supposed to illustrate?
Quote from: "LikelyToBreak"I am a vet. Luckily I never went to war. Still, people blamed me after the Vietnam debacle for supporting baby killing. The servicemen and women who went didn't know what was going on. Didn't have any really good choices in the matter. Yet, they got blamed for the war.
That never made any sense to me. It seemed like everyone was against the war, including most of the soldiers. So why take it out on soldiers? But many did.
It was also during the time of the draft. You had two choices, the army or jail. Sure a few fled to Canada later on, but I reached draft age early in the war, when few people, including politicians, had any understanding of what was going on. Back then you served your country in the military for two years. There was no questioning it. Supposedly everyone did (which was not actually true, except in principle).
So it's not like those soldiers knew what they were doing. They were just put on airplanes and shipped to an exotic country, where they suddenly found they were in the middle of a shit storm. How many soldiers actually went to Nam with the intention of killing women and babies? Just the odd psychopath here and there.
Quote from: "SilentFutility"Quote from: "Jmpty""Using data from the National Death Index and Defense Department personnel records, the researchers found among the group 83 service members who committed suicide, of whom 58 percent had never deployed."
What is that quote supposed to illustrate?
The article is making the point that it isn't deployment that's the primary factor in military suicide. They indicate that the pressure of being at war alone is enough to increase the suicide rate among the military, and that many other factors play a role as well.
Quote from: "LikelyToBreak"I am a vet. Luckily I never went to war. Still, people blamed me after the Vietnam debacle for supporting baby killing. The servicemen and women who went didn't know what was going on. Didn't have any really good choices in the matter. Yet, they got blamed for the war. When it was Johnson and his rich cronies who sent the military in. But, he felt bad about it. So, he was let off the hook for the whole thing.
Hell, when I enlisted, I just wanted a job. And maybe to travel some. My time in the service was over all a good one for me. But, I have advised my son against going into the service. I no longer trust the government, whether their Republican or Democrat led, to do the right thing by the troops.
The lack of care for veterans is not as well known as it should be. Young people go to terrible places, see terrible things, and do terrible things. Because they trust an untrustworthy government to do the right thing. Then that government can no longer be bothered by them, once their use as thugs is ended.
I know my complaining doesn't do any good. I am too tired to continue more actively trying to change things. But, please don't blame the service people for what the rich bastards in Washington make them do. Like me, most of them are just poor kids looking for a chance to make a comfortable life for themselves. And have no idea how the system really works.
If you know a veteran of these Gulf Wars, please let them know about the Wounded Warriors Project. //http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/ They don't have to be visibly wounded to actually be wounded. PTSD can be a fatal illness. We have lost way too many good people already to not help those we can save.
I'm a vet as well. Same era.
Quote from: "Jmpty"Quote from: "SilentFutility"Quote from: "Jmpty""Using data from the National Death Index and Defense Department personnel records, the researchers found among the group 83 service members who committed suicide, of whom 58 percent had never deployed."
What is that quote supposed to illustrate?
The article is making the point that it isn't deployment that's the primary factor in military suicide. They indicate that the pressure of being at war alone is enough to increase the suicide rate among the military, and that many other factors play a role as well.
If that is the case then it is a point worth bearing in mind, for sure.
That does not rule out combat being a risk factor as well though, something which I'm sure you'd agree is worth looking at too, as well as the wider military environment?