OK, admit it, y'all thought it was Iran or some shit right? :P
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/sout ... 20459.html (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/south-american-football-referee-beheaded-fans-killing-player-084120459.html)
QuoteSouth American Football - Referee beheaded by fans for killing player
There were absolutely horrific scenes at an amateur football match in Brazil when spectators lynched a referee and put his head on a stake after he had killed a player.
The barely believable incident happened in Maranhao, Brazil, last Sunday.
According to reports in Brazil, referee Otavio Jordao da Silva (20) fatally stabbed footballer Josenir dos Santos Abreu (30) during a heated moment of a match.
Santos Abreu is believed to have argued and then struck the referee after being unhappy with a decision.
It is believed the referee was carrying a knife throughout the match and fatally stabbed the player in retaliation.
Santos Abreu was rushed to hospital but died from injuries on the way.
Outraged by the incident, some spectators then apparently decided to inflict a gruesome revenge on the referee.
According to reports, the referee was tied up, beaten, stoned and quartered. They then put his head on a stake and planted it in the middle of the pitch.
One man, Luiz Moraes de Souza, 27, has been arrested over the incident. He has admitted to assaulting the referee but denied killing the man. Police are searching for two more suspects.
They are currently viewing video footage of the incident filmed by a witness with a mobile phone.
In a statement, the regional delegate of Santa Ines, Valter Costa, who is looking after the case, said: "One crime never justifies another crime. Actions likes this do not collaborate with the legality of state law."
Bloody hell.... :shock:
Why would I have thought it was Iran, Latin America is the place that goes ape-shit over its soccer...
You reap what you sow... murdering someone infront of a crowd probably isn't the best way to conduct yourself if you don't want your head on a stake.
I will never understand fans of any sport.
It's pretty simple... you get passionate about something you enjoy.
Well that part is obvious. So let me rephrase. I will never understand why anyone enjoys watching adults play children's games.
They'll be hosting the Olympics in 2016. Shit's gonna get real, yo. :-D
Quote from: "Johan"Well that part is obvious. So let me rephrase. I will never understand why anyone enjoys watching adults play children's games.
Because they aren't children's games?
> I will never understand why anyone enjoys watching adults play children's games.
I'm with you. The rabid fans of any of these sports absolutely baffle me.
Frank
QuoteBecause they aren't children's games?
Says you. Baseball, football, basketball, soccer were all games I played when I was kid. Then I grew up. Now I couldn't care less about playing them and I certainly couldn't care less about watching adults play them. I don't understand the attraction and I probably never will.
Who won? Who cares. It has zero impact on my life nor the life of anyone else unless they let it have an impact. In which case, much like religion, any perceived effect positive or negative, is all in their head.
QuoteSays you. Baseball, football, basketball, soccer were all games I played when I was kid. Then I grew up.
I also ran as a kid. I also swam as a kid. Doesn't mean I out grew them. It has nothing to do with age, it has to do with interests. It's a physical activity and a challenge, just like dance, skating or anything of that sort.
QuoteNow I couldn't care less about playing them and I certainly couldn't care less about watching adults play them. I don't understand the attraction and I probably never will.
I couldn't care less about poker and couldn't care less about watching people play it. I couldn't care less about NASCAR and couldn't care less about watching it.
But just because I am not interested in something doesn't mean I cant see why people enjoy them. There is shit I do that I KNOW people would consider boring as hell and I realize the way people see those things are the way I see people who like golf. Boring ass sport, stupid ass sport but I can still see why people enjoy it.
QuoteWho won? Who cares. It has zero impact on my life nor the life of anyone else unless they let it have an impact. In which case, much like religion, any perceived effect positive or negative, is all in their head.
Welcome to humanity, you must be new here.
Sports are one of the best way to keep the body in shape and we are a tribal creature that easily attaches to groups like sports teams. And we ARE our heads, so any positive or negative effect is real for them even if it isn't for you.
Quote from: "Shiranu"Sports are one of the best way to keep the body in shape
This guy looks like he's in great shape.
(//http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-iaW99BKuXeg/TlWVc3XgYRI/AAAAAAAABQ4/gAH76YU2uiU/s320/FatFan.jpg)
Quote from: "Johan"Quote from: "Shiranu"Sports are one of the best way to keep the body in shape
This guy looks like he's in great shape.
[ Image (//http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-iaW99BKuXeg/TlWVc3XgYRI/AAAAAAAABQ4/gAH76YU2uiU/s320/FatFan.jpg) ]
Fail.
Now that's more like the Mayan/Aztec sports that should be played! No more of that pussy "time out" shit - if you fuck up you get stabbed. For the stabbing you get the honor of being sacrificed to the gods to ensure a better harvest! Hell yeah!
Quote from: "Johan"Well that part is obvious. So let me rephrase. I will never understand why anyone enjoys watching adults play children's games.
Easily identified as the words of a true non-athlete!
Quote from: "Shiranu"Sports are one of the best way to keep the body in shape
Watching someone else exercise is not very good exercise. Especially considering the beer involved.
If you're taking a weapon to a football match, you're taking a game way too seriously.
Quote from: "the_antithesis"Quote from: "Shiranu"Sports are one of the best way to keep the body in shape
Watching someone else exercise is not very good exercise. Especially considering the beer involved.
At least with football (soccer) I think every single fan I know also played street football or high school football.
People can drink beer and be lazy watching sports. People can also drink beer and be lazy watching the cooking channel, or going fishing, or crocheting a nice sweater, or at work. The fact that there are fans who are lazy is no more a proof that sports are therefor bad exercise anymore than people who drink at work and get fired means work is bad for making money. It just means some people are lazy.
But to say sports are a kids game is just silly. I would like to see Johan go out and play 90 minutes of EPL (hell, even MLS) soccer, or pad up and get down there with New Orleans Saint's frontline (w/e you call it in handegg) and tell me its for kids. You go into a competitive sport thinking, "Oh, a kid could do this." and you are going to have your ass handed to you.
Humans are competitive creatures (thank god), humans are fun loving creatures, humans are tribal creatures. Sports hit all those needs as well as having the evolutionary advantage in that they keep us in shape. You don't "get to old" for sports no more than you "get to old" to run or work out.
I said they are adults playing kids games. That's just how I feel about it and I make no apologies for it. Now I'm sure these adults are playing these kids games at an adult level, but that doesn't change the fact that they are and always will be kids games in my eyes. But you're confusing topics a bit here.
If an adult wants to go down to the field and play baseball or football or whatever with his buddies to keep in shape, I get that. They liked playing the game when they were a kid and they still like playing it and it helps them stay in shape. I get all that. Hell I even get being a fan of the sport even if you don't play it. But when I say being a fan of the sport I mean being a fan of the sport in general. I can probably count on one hand with fingers left over the number of people I've known who fit that description.
This is because most people who claim to be fans of a sport are not really so much fans of the sport as they are fans of the team. They pick their team and they get emotionally attached to their team and passionate about it. When their team wins, they're on top of the world and when their team loses, they get depressed. I don't understand that and I never will.
I'm a fan of certain musicians. When they put out a new record, I listen to it and decide if I like it. But I don't celebrate if their record sells well and I most certainly don't get depressed if it doesn't sell well. And I could give a fuck if they win a grammy. Why? Because none of that effects me in the slightest.
So yeah, you want to be a fan of the game and derive enjoyment from watching others play it, that's fine. I get that. But when you start allowing things that have zero impact on your life, i.e. whether that team wins or loses, effect your mood or worse yet, motivate you to attack and behead someone as is the case in the story that began this thread, then I'm going to regard you as someone who is not very bright. Sorry champ, that's how I roll. Deal with it.
^ I hear that, as a lifelong fan of the Moody Blues, I have had many opportunities to listen to them in concert, including once when they were really, literally two blocks away. Nope. I love their music but have no interest in contributing to the idea that musicians are deserving of a "group love" that gives them any feeling of superiority over those who listen. I wish more would think like that and not give a fuck what musicians or actors say as private citizens as if they have some secret knowledge or intelligence that we cannot have because they are more "famous". Fuck that.
QuoteBut when you start allowing things that have zero impact on your life, i.e. whether that team wins or loses, effect your mood or worse yet, motivate you to attack and behead someone as is the case in the story that began this thread, then I'm going to regard you as someone who is not very bright. Sorry champ, that's how I roll. Deal with it.
Too bad that's not what happened, though good for me since I therefor don't have to "deal with it".
The guy murdered someone, a mob murdered him back.
aitm: I have never gone to a concert to give a band attention, I have gone because I love their music and a live atmosphere is absolutely amazing. It's like comparing masturbating to sex with... um... someone attractive, like that blonde model with the huge tits...
Myeah. I'll never understand sports fans either and I think watching sport is among the dumbest things there is, but this entire event seemed unrelated to sports and entirely related to morons inflicting mob-justice on someone. Makes no difference whether someone was lynched over killing a man during a game or for any other reason; it's still nothing more than mob justice.
Stab my team's players and we'll draw and quarter your ass at midfield! I wonder if the birds pecks his eyes out, but one thing's for damned sure.. The next referee won't be carrying a knife.. A gattling gun perhaps, but not a knife.
So what lessons can we draw here? Never take a knife to a drawn an? quartered match.
Okay, not sure why the original quote is bugging out in my post, but here it is from Johan...
"Says you. Baseball, football, basketball, soccer were all games I played when I was kid. Then I grew up. Now I couldn't care less about playing them and I certainly couldn't care less about watching adults play them. I don't understand the attraction and I probably never will.
Who won? Who cares. It has zero impact on my life nor the life of anyone else unless they let it have an impact. In which case, much like religion, any perceived effect positive or negative, is all in their head."
I'm with you and FrankDK on this one. And not only has our world iconified the sports themselves, but we have elevated their players (especially the ones in the U.S.) to celebrity status. We venerate them moreso than teachers, soldiers, doctors and scientists COMBINED. You know -- people who actually do a fucking thing that matters in this life.
Quoting Plu:
"Myeah. I'll never understand sports fans either and I think watching sport is among the dumbest things there is, but this entire event seemed unrelated to sports and entirely related to morons inflicting mob-justice on someone. Makes no difference whether someone was lynched over killing a man during a game or for any other reason; it's still nothing more than mob justice."
And while I agree with you in spirit, that people should be able to separate the fact from the fiction, it all boils down to people taking things too seriously. And, unfortunately, many human beings take certain hobbies so seriously that they are willing to kill over it. You can see examples like that in modern American culture.
I'm going to try and take a sort of middle ground here.
- The kiddie-sports thing falls flat. People may start off young playing these games, but it's the adult players that reach a level that impressive enough to watch. Dodgeball. Now there's a kiddiesport.
- Though I rarely watch sports and I don't practice any sport I don't look down on sport. It's no stranger to watch for instance a footballmatch than a moviethriller; both are sources of suspence.
- Though it's regrettable that people like teachers or doctors or scientists don't receive the same level of admiration as athletes, the admiration for exceptional athletes is no stranger than the admiration for an exceptional visual artist; both are examples of craftsmanship gained through lots of devoted training.
What I do find pathetic, is when people become reliant on a sportsteam for their identity, thus reliant on other peoples achievements for their own selfesteem. Those are the ones that lose their shit if the team is losing.
But there was also something going on with the head of a brazillian referee on a stake, who was drawn and quartered after stabbing a player to death.
So why did the ref. carry a knife anyway? Something tells me, the following just mmmmmight have something to do with it.
Anyone remember reading about this guy? A referee kicked to death rescently.
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Maybe some referees are a little on edge these days. Oh shit, knife, edge, no pun intended.
So here's my ironic theory: a referee who didn't want to become the next one kicked to death, got scared when a player got threatening and agressive with him after receiving a yellow/red card, panicked, stabbed with a knife he shouldn't have brought along just in case, killed the player, and got drawn and quartered.
Quote from: Jutter- Though it's regrettable that people like teachers or doctors or scientists don't receive the same level of admiration as athletes, the admiration for exceptional athletes is no stranger than the admiration for an exceptional visual artist; both are examples of craftsmanship gained through lots of devoted training.
I'm picking out the portion of your post that I don't agree on (implying that I agree with pretty much the rest of it). Yes, I agree, there is nothing wrong with being good at something, even something that is, for all intents and purposes, meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Frankly, if we think about it, everything we do is pointless anyway because eventually the species will cease to exist and our impact on earth will be brushed aside as a dead mosquito brushed from an arm.
Nonetheless, given the context of our species and the fact that, while we exist, we can and should try do the best we can with said existence. The fact that "athletes" of specific sports are iconified beyond celebrity status while thousands and thousands of different sport athletes garner barely a sliver of the recognition, despite likely being just as justifiable as a sport as any other. Billions of dollars that could be better spent in other areas, shuffled into the hands of a select few individuals. For what, exactly? So they can brutalize each other for the entertainment of the neanderthal masses?
I don't know, I don't mean to get so fired up over it but I've had a strong distaste of Corporate Sports(tm) for a long time now.
If we are going to have a free market, then these guy's are going to make big money. They have a product people want so they will get paid accordingly.
Sports are no different than any other art; what is the POINT of a painting? What is the POINT of listening to good music? There isn't, besides it makes you feel good. You COULD spend all your money on feeding the poor or what have you, but instead you (the consumer) will pay big money to see your painter make a new piece, your favourite band a new album or your favourite soccer player get that $30 million contract.
If I criticise the meaninglessness of sports then I am therefor obliged to criticise the meaningless of every other medium of entertainment and the fact that people get rich off of being a part of them. I personally enjoy music, film and art too much to do that. And perhaps you guys are willing to go that route and say its stupid or childish for people to enjoy silly movies that make millions of dollars (big name actors make just as much if not more than 99% of soccer players) when those movies have no positive effect on society in the grand scale of things, but I doubt it. It's only when its something YOU don't enjoy that it becomes "bad".
Quote from: "Broede"I'm picking out the portion of your post that I don't agree on (implying that I agree with pretty much the rest of it). Yes, I agree, there is nothing wrong with being good at something, even something that is, for all intents and purposes, meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Frankly, if we think about it, everything we do is pointless anyway because eventually the species will cease to exist and our impact on earth will be brushed aside as a dead mosquito brushed from an arm.
if you have that view then just do everyone a favor and pull the trigger now.
QuoteNonetheless, given the context of our species and the fact that, while we exist, we can and should try do the best we can with said existence. The fact that "athletes" of specific sports are iconified beyond celebrity status while thousands and thousands of different sport athletes garner barely a sliver of the recognition, despite likely being just as justifiable as a sport as any other. Billions of dollars that could be better spent in other areas, shuffled into the hands of a select few individuals. For what, exactly? So they can brutalize each other for the entertainment of the neanderthal masses?
I don't know, I don't mean to get so fired up over it but I've had a strong distaste of Corporate Sports(tm) for a long time now.
forget athletes, this argument could be said for everything. Actors, musicians, business owners. Athletics is nearly the one true place that ability reigns supreme. At the highest level sports is about production, not who you know, how much influence you have, just can you produce. name me one other industry that allows such a pure evalutation system.
really? neanderthal? does that make you feel better?
Quote from: "Jutter"What I do find pathetic, is when people become reliant on a sportsteam for their identity, thus reliant on other peoples achievements for their own selfesteem. Those are the ones that lose their shit if the team is losing.
i had a best friend (16) tie his hopes to his cancer recovery on a hockey team which both lost. I'm not going to call at kid battling cancer pathetic if he wants to see hope in a sport. i'm also not going to judge someone who uses their sports fandom to define their reality. I don't know what their life is like and how sports is used as an escape.
Quote from: "Jutter"I'm going to try and take a sort of middle ground here.
- The kiddie-sports thing falls flat. People may start off young playing these games, but it's the adult players that reach a level that impressive enough to watch. Dodgeball. Now there's a kiddiesport.
- Though I rarely watch sports and I don't practice any sport I don't look down on sport. It's no stranger to watch for instance a footballmatch than a moviethriller; both are sources of suspence.
- Though it's regrettable that people like teachers or doctors or scientists don't receive the same level of admiration as athletes, the admiration for exceptional athletes is no stranger than the admiration for an exceptional visual artist; both are examples of craftsmanship gained through lots of devoted training.
What I do find pathetic, is when people become reliant on a sportsteam for their identity, thus reliant on other peoples achievements for their own selfesteem. Those are the ones that lose their shit if the team is losing.
The sanest post in this thread so far. =D>
Quote from: ShiranuIf we are going to have a free market, then these guy's are going to make big money. They have a product people want so they will get paid accordingly.
Sports are no different than any other art; what is the POINT of a painting? What is the POINT of listening to good music? There isn't, besides it makes you feel good. You COULD spend all your money on feeding the poor or what have you, but instead you (the consumer) will pay big money to see your painter make a new piece, your favourite band a new album or your favourite soccer player get that $30 million contract.
If I criticise the meaninglessness of sports then I am therefor obliged to criticise the meaningless of every other medium of entertainment and the fact that people get rich off of being a part of them. I personally enjoy music, film and art too much to do that. And perhaps you guys are willing to go that route and say its stupid or childish for people to enjoy silly movies that make millions of dollars (big name actors make just as much if not more than 99% of soccer players) when those movies have no positive effect on society in the grand scale of things, but I doubt it. It's only when its something YOU don't enjoy that it becomes "bad".
Should anyone be making that kind of money that contributes nothing of lasting good to society? I agree to a point but there are very, very few musicians or artists who make the kind of money actors or athletes make.
Don't assume that, just because I'm talking about sports, I wouldn't criticize anything else just because I enjoy it. I occasionally watch the Super Bowl or World Series. I also don't delude myself into thinking these people are really worth the multi-million dollar contracts they hold. I have nothing against people aspiring to be great or making a lot of money, but the point I'm trying to make is how people venerate... no, *worship*... these people. Riots are started because of the outcome of games. The witless Christians who say God is on the side of the Yankees mere weeks after 9/11.
Enjoy sports? Want to have a barbecue and bullshit with your friends? Fine, have at it. Have your fantasy football league. Buy all your favorite team's paraphernalia. Just don't fucking kill people over it. And yes, if you're killing people over a game, you ARE a neanderthal. No, I take that back -- a neanderthal would know better.
Quote from: "Shiranu"Sports are no different than any other art;
Oh no you didn't! You did not just compare sporting events to art. Oops yes you did. So clearly you no earthly idea what art is. Here's a hint. There is entertainment, and then there is art. Sometimes something that qualifies as art can also serve as entertainment. But being entertainment in no way shape or form ever qualifies anything as automatically being art. Professional sports are most definitely entertainment. But they ain't ever art. No sir, not even close.
So if could be so inclined to change your statement to read that sports are no different than any other form of entertainment, then everything you said afterward is completely valid and I agree completely. But if you're going to insist on calling it art than I'll have alternative but to consider you someone who doesn't have the faintest idea what art is.
QuoteIt's only when its something YOU don't enjoy that it becomes "bad".
Well for one thing I never said it was bad, I said I don't understand the fascination with it. But even saying it that way isn't really stating it clearly. If you enjoy being entertained by watching sports of some sort, I get that. But like I said, I've known extremely few people who fit that description, i.e. people who just enjoy watching baseball for instance because they're fascinated by the minutia of how the game is played. They don't care who's playing or who wins, they just like watching talented people play the game. That is a sports fan. I've known one or two people like that. Most people who are into sports are actually into a team. And what I don't get is getting depressed when your team loses. I like movies, I like music, I like books. But I don't give a rats ass who wins a grammy or an emmy or any other award for their creative output. The same cannot be said for a great number of sports fans. And that is what I will never understand. I don't get it. I never will. I don't take any form of entertainment that seriously and quite frankly I wonder about the mental stability of anyone who does.
Oh, someone who describes art as more than a non-word. :o
What do you consider is the factor that divides art from non-art? Most of the people I've heard talk about art basically are so vague about that anything can be art, which makes it a nonsense word.
And I agree that many people take entertainment way too seriously. Especially entertainment that they aren't even involved in.
QuoteOh no you didn't! You did not just compare sporting events to art. Oops yes you did.
Yes, I did. There is an art to being a GOOD sports player in any sport. If dance and ice skating is an art, than so too is the basketball player who can spin past you, be bumped in midair, change his body position and still manage to sink the basket. And if you have ever watched a player like Messi, Ronaldinho, Henry, etc. play soccer... it IS art.
Art is defined as the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, therefor these player's DO produce works of art.
QuoteProfessional sports are most definitely entertainment. But they ain't ever art. No sir, not even close.
But if you're going to insist on calling it art than I'll have alternative but to consider you someone who doesn't have the faintest idea what art is.
As already proven above, by definition they can be perceived as art. You sound like the people who say, "Ew... modern art is not REAL art and if you like it then you clearly don't know what REAL art is!".
Is that a, "No True Artsman Argument"? :P
QuoteBut like I said, I've known extremely few people who fit that description, i.e. people who just enjoy watching baseball for instance because they're fascinated by the minutia of how the game is played. They don't care who's playing or who wins, they just like watching talented people play the game. That is a sports fan. I've known one or two people like that. Most people who are into sports are actually into a team.
I don't see why you cant be both. I have favourite teams (Spurs, Tottenham, etc.), but at the same time I enjoy watching the sport being played. Hell, I am watching the D-League summer league teams at 7 in the morning just to see certain player's play. But if I didn't enjoy watching the game then I wouldn't have those favourite teams, and I would assume that's how most people are. For example I cant stand football or baseball, hence the reason I don't watch my "home" teams. I root for them because they are the home team, but I wouldn't go out of my way to watch one of their games. Just because you put a preference over other teams doesn't mean you therefor don't like the sport.
QuoteBut I don't give a rats ass who wins a grammy or an emmy or any other award for their creative output. The same cannot be said for a great number of sports fans. And that is what I will never understand. I don't get it. I never will. I don't take any form of entertainment that seriously and quite frankly I wonder about the mental stability of anyone who does.
And if you weren't so condescending about it, I wouldn't have any problem with that. Like what you want, and let other's like what they want, but just because someone enjoy's something you don't doesn't mean you have to be a dick about it. You are wondering about the mental stability of people who are simply experiencing the most well documented trait in humanity... that we are social, group creatures.
QuoteI root for them because they are the home team,
Why would you do that? That seems like a very silly reason to root for someone.
Quote from: "Plu"QuoteI root for them because they are the home team,
Why would you do that? That seems like a very silly reason to root for someone.
It's where I grew up, and I like where I grew up, therefor I am going to support groups from where I grew up. It's no different than rooting for the Italian national team because you're Italian... they are part of the same group you are from, you have a little more vested interest in them. It doesn't mean you don't like the other teams, they are just your preference.
I find rooting for a national team just because you came from that country just as silly. I see no reason to support some people I don't know over another group of people I don't know just because they happen to have their base of operation closer to the place where I live.
Then again; I don't consider myself "part of the same group" either. Distance does not a group make.
Quote from: "Plu"I find rooting for a national team just because you came from that country just as silly. I see no reason to support some people I don't know over another group of people I don't know just because they happen to have their base of operation closer to the place where I live.
Then again; I don't consider myself "part of the same group" either. Distance does not a group make.
I think it's because most of the known civilized world is indoctrinated with at least some form of patriotism, so people have a tendency to mirror that in many aspects of life.
That might very well be it. I've always considered it a silly concept. But most people seem to either not give the concept a lot of thought or just desperately want to belong in a group even though they wouldn't get along with most members of it.
See? This is what I am talking about being meaninglessly condescending...
I don't root for Italy/Germany just because I desperately want to be a part of a group (that i am already a part of...), nor is it because I haven't given it much thought. I have. I find finding yourself better than anyone else because of your ethnicity abhorrent. Nor am I a nationalist... while I love Germany, Italy is one hella-flawed country and I admit that.
And no shit I wouldn't get along with members of those groups... just like I don't get along with every atheist I ever met. I figure yall don't get along with certain other atheists as well, so why did yall join an atheist group? Two atheists have less in common than any two people of any nationality, so shouldn't I be saying you haven't given much thought to joining an atheist group?
I root for them, and my home team, because it's a group I am a part of and its FUN. Not everything in life needs a 200 page philosophical dissertation on why you should or shouldn't do it.
Quote from: "Broede"Should anyone be making that kind of money that contributes nothing of lasting good to society? I agree to a point but there are very, very few musicians or artists who make the kind of money actors or athletes make.
they should have gone into sports...who cares what they make. if people are willing to pay it then i don't begrudge people from being paid it.
QuoteDon't assume that, just because I'm talking about sports, I wouldn't criticize anything else just because I enjoy it. I occasionally watch the Super Bowl or World Series. I also don't delude myself into thinking these people are really worth the multi-million dollar contracts they hold. I have nothing against people aspiring to be great or making a lot of money, but the point I'm trying to make is how people venerate... no, *worship*... these people. Riots are started because of the outcome of games. The witless Christians who say God is on the side of the Yankees mere weeks after 9/11.
the thread is about sports, not someone that killed another person at the opera...which i would be fine with btw. I would like to see that. You just showed how you are a hypocrite, you will occassionally watch the Super Bowl, the epitome of corporate greed and inflation at the same time bitching about the players who get paid the money...well done.
as for the riots...people riot...alot of times they have nothing to do with the sports team and are just assholes.
QuoteEnjoy sports? Want to have a barbecue and bullshit with your friends? Fine, have at it. Have your fantasy football league. Buy all your favorite team's paraphernalia. Just don't fucking kill people over it. And yes, if you're killing people over a game, you ARE a neanderthal. No, I take that back -- a neanderthal would know better.
this is just stupid, it's not like murder is an epidemic at sporting events. there are lots of underlying factors when something like this happens, same when a person shoots up a school, place of work and so on.
QuoteAnd no shit I wouldn't get along with members of those groups... just like I don't get along with every atheist I ever met. I figure yall don't get along with certain other atheists as well, so why did yall join an atheist group? Two atheists have less in common than any two people of any nationality, so shouldn't I be saying you haven't given much thought to joining an atheist group?
I don't consider myself "part" of this group, (or any other group of atheists) though. I'm just a member on these forums, and I come here because I enjoy the conversations. And I'm staying here as long as the conversations are worthwhile, and I'll leave when they no longer are. I give no special consideration to anyone just for being on this forum. Only for personal actions.
Also don't immediately assume you are part of "most people". You should know yourself well enough to determine whether or not you fall under the people I mentioned. I did not, nor do I intend to, judge you as someone who does or does not desperately want to belong to anything.
And you don't need 200 pages of dissertation, no. But I feel you do need at least 1 reason beyond "because that's what people do", because I never considered the argument from tradition to be worthwhile. But that's just me. If you do it because it's fun, that sounds like reason enough to me. I occasionally engage in traditional things because I enjoy them. But the real reason isn't the tradition, it's the enjoyment of participation.
Quote from: "Johan"Oh no you didn't! You did not just compare sporting events to art. Oops yes you did. So clearly you no earthly idea what art is. Here's a hint. There is entertainment, and then there is art. Sometimes something that qualifies as art can also serve as entertainment. But being entertainment in no way shape or form ever qualifies anything as automatically being art. Professional sports are most definitely entertainment. But they ain't ever art. No sir, not even close.
and there it is...the implied superiority of 'art' against sports. sports can be art, anything can be art, but not everything can be a sport. art can be entertaining as well. art is different to each person.
QuoteSo if could be so inclined to change your statement to read that sports are no different than any other form of entertainment, then everything you said afterward is completely valid and I agree completely. But if you're going to insist on calling it art than I'll have alternative but to consider you someone who doesn't have the faintest idea what art is.
right back atchya.
QuoteWell for one thing I never said it was bad, I said I don't understand the fascination with it. But even saying it that way isn't really stating it clearly. If you enjoy being entertained by watching sports of some sort, I get that. But like I said, I've known extremely few people who fit that description, i.e. people who just enjoy watching baseball for instance because they're fascinated by the minutia of how the game is played. They don't care who's playing or who wins, they just like watching talented people play the game. That is a sports fan. I've known one or two people like that. Most people who are into sports are actually into a team. And what I don't get is getting depressed when your team loses. I like movies, I like music, I like books. But I don't give a rats ass who wins a grammy or an emmy or any other award for their creative output. The same cannot be said for a great number of sports fans. And that is what I will never understand. I don't get it. I never will. I don't take any form of entertainment that seriously and quite frankly I wonder about the mental stability of anyone who does.
of fuck off. taking a sports team seriously is not the sign of a person with a mental problem. all this is is an argument from ignorance, if you don't understand it then it must be wrong or stupid right? you, Plu, and Broede have all said at some point having an interest in a sports team, to a point any of you don't understand...either silly, mentally unstable, indoctrinated, and implied an overall lack of intelligence on the part who is rooting. no one is forcing you to watch sports, or talk about sports, or participate in sports. move along.
Quoteanything can be art
So "art" is a word that has no meaning then? That's how I usually see it used, and why I don't use the word myself.
Quote from: "Plu"And you don't need 200 pages of dissertation, no. But I feel you do need at least 1 reason beyond "because that's what people do", because I never considered the argument from tradition to be worthwhile. But that's just me. If you do it because it's fun, that sounds like reason enough to me. I occasionally engage in traditional things because I enjoy them. But the real reason isn't the tradition, it's the enjoyment of participation.
he doesn't need any reasons...it could be he has a crippling gambling problem and that wouldn't even be wrong.
I grew up watching a certain hockey team because my father watched them. we would watch the games together...still do. tradition is one thing. sports is a unifier, I can go to another city and see someone wearing a Leaf hat and we instantly have something in common. It can bring people together but it can also create rivalries with people for no other reason than who they hope wins in a game.
as i said at the start of the post, my best friend got cancer when he was 16. he couldn't play ice hockey so we played alot of street hockey, all his friends did. for all of us it was a way to hang out and not dwell on the fact he had cancer. to him hockey was more than just a sport but a release from chemo treatments. he could watch his team play and forget what he was going through and be healthy.
I still play hockey, i coach football, i have forced my oldest son to play football and there are reasons for it. appreciation is where you find it, at a sporting event, in nature. I absolutely hate camping but I know people that love it. i don't do but I don't tell them they need to give me reasons why they like it lest i don't think it's worthwhile.
Quote from: "Plu"Quoteanything can be art
So "art" is a word that has no meaning then? That's how I usually see it used, and why I don't use the word myself.
to me it doesn't (have meaning) but I have been unsuccessful in having everyone use my definition of words.
Quotehe doesn't need any reasons
For you he doesn't. For me he does. Whether he gives a damn about my opinion/approval is his own issue (I wouldn't, if I were him, but hey) but that doesn't change that I think you need a reason for the things you do.
It also doesn't mean he doesn't have good reasons. Most of the stuff mentioned in your post are very good reasons.
You seem to think I'm looking for deep existential reasons or something. I just want people to think for a few minutes about why they're doing something. "It's fun" is one of the easiest and best answers, but too many people keep doing something they don't enjoy because never think about why the hell they're doing that thing, and that's just silly.
Quote from: "surly74"Quote from: "Plu"Quoteanything can be art
So "art" is a word that has no meaning then? That's how I usually see it used, and why I don't use the word myself.
to me it doesn't (have meaning) but I have been unsuccessful in having everyone use my definition of words.
Myeah, for some reason keep using the word even though it's one of those words that not only has no fixed definition, but it doesn't even have some kind of cultural common understanding. It always sounds like a pointless word to me. I mean there's a few more (like "game") that seem to lack a fixed definition, but at least most people have a common understanding about what is and is not a game, giving the word some use.
Quote from: "Plu"Quotehe doesn't need any reasons
You seem to think I'm looking for deep existential reasons or something. I just want people to think for a few minutes about why they're doing something. "It's fun" is one of the easiest and best answers, but too many people keep doing something they don't enjoy because never think about why the hell they're doing that thing, and that's just silly.
i'm going to save this answer and post it back sometime to you about another topic and perhaps then you can see the condescending douchery in it.
Quote from: "Shiranu"[I cant stand football or baseball, hence the reason I don't watch my "home" teams. I root for them because they are the home team,
And I rest my case.
Feel free. I'm quite open about being a condescending douche to people who don't think about what they're doing, and I think it's a good thing when people point out when I'm doing the same thing, because that allows me to fix the problem.
Quote from: "Johan"Quote from: "Shiranu"[I cant stand football or baseball, hence the reason I don't watch my "home" teams. I root for them because they are the home team,
And I rest my case.
Your case on what? That I support people in my region, even if I don't necessarily enjoy the sport they play?
You really nailed me, then...
Quote from: "Johan"Quote from: "Shiranu"[I cant stand football or baseball, hence the reason I don't watch my "home" teams. I root for them because they are the home team,
And I rest my case.
Your case on what? That I support people in my region, even if I don't necessarily enjoy the sport they play?
You really nailed me, then...
QuoteFeel free. I'm quite open about being a condescending douche to people who don't think about what they're doing, and I think it's a good thing when people point out when I'm doing the same thing, because that allows me to fix the problem.
you know what's best for everyone?
i don't care what a person's reason for doing anything is. it's their reason and not for me to tell them whether its valid, important or not. just don't bitch to me when that person suffers a consequence of doing something "for the fun of it" however.
Quote from: "Shiranu"Quote from: "Johan"Quote from: "Shiranu"[I cant stand football or baseball, hence the reason I don't watch my "home" teams. I root for them because they are the home team,
And I rest my case.
Your case on what? That I support people in my region, even if I don't necessarily enjoy the sport they play?
You really nailed me, then...
good job jerk. /s
Quote from: "surly74"QuoteFeel free. I'm quite open about being a condescending douche to people who don't think about what they're doing, and I think it's a good thing when people point out when I'm doing the same thing, because that allows me to fix the problem.
you know what's best for everyone?
i don't care what a person's reason for doing anything is. it's their reason and not for me to tell them whether its valid, important or not. just don't bitch to me when that person suffers a consequence of doing something "for the fun of it" however.
How do you know that's best for everyone?
Quote from: "Plu"How do you know that's best for everyone?
I've never said I know what's best for everyone. people are allowed to make their own decisions and have their own reasons.
Wait what?
I must be misunderstanding you, then. You literally said "You know what's best for everyone?" and then gave your answer. What exactly did you mean by that?
Quote from: "Plu"Wait what?
I must be misunderstanding you, then. You literally said "You know what's best for everyone?" and then gave your answer. What exactly did you mean by that?
yes, i asked "you know what's best for everyone?" I was asking you specifically because it sounded like you were saying that unless it was a valid reason to you it wasn't correct.
i wasn't asking the question as in " do you know what's best for everyone??? I do" type deal.
I said, I don't care what a person's reason for doing anything is. want to jump in ocean and swim with great white sharks because it looks fun? go right ahead...just don't bitch to me when you come out of the water missing limbs.
Quote from: "surly74"Quote from: "Johan"Oh no you didn't! You did not just compare sporting events to art. Oops yes you did. So clearly you no earthly idea what art is. Here's a hint. There is entertainment, and then there is art. Sometimes something that qualifies as art can also serve as entertainment. But being entertainment in no way shape or form ever qualifies anything as automatically being art. Professional sports are most definitely entertainment. But they ain't ever art. No sir, not even close.
and there it is...the implied superiority of 'art' against sports. sports can be art, anything can be art, but not everything can be a sport. art can be entertaining as well. art is different to each person.
No superiority implied or otherwise was intended I can assure you. If my statement came across that way, then that's my bad and I apologize. Maybe I should have explained it this way. Art isn't better, its just different. The same as asking someone if they'd like an ear of corn with their meal and then handing them a slice of bread. One is corn, one is bread. Either one isn't better than the other, just different.
Obviously you and others don't agree with me on this and that's fine. But it would be pointless to steer the discussion into trying to define exactly what art is and what it isn't. Suffice it to say this though. I've seen lots of books on art. I've seen lots of different encyclopedia entries on art. I've never seen a baseball player listed as an example of an artist or the act of playing the game of baseball listed as a valid form of artistic expression in any one of them. That doesn't mean I'm right. That doesn't mean the art books and encyclopedias are right. But don't look at me like I'm the crazy one because I don't consider a couple of guys playing a game to be a form of artistic expression. I don't consider a guy painting the side of a barn red because the barn owner is paying him to do it to be a form of artistic expression either. If that makes me a snob then I guess I'm a snob.
the shit people will argue about....I swear.. :Hangman:
Ok, there were multiple ways to interpret the question. Guess I picked the wrong one.
Do I know what's best for everyone? Not really, no. But that doesn't mean I can't point out things that are, at the least, an improvement over other things. Thinking about why you're doing something is one of those that is an improvement over not thinking about why you're doing things.
I also don't think that I should personally think the reason is a good one. I just think that the person holding the reason should understand his reasons for doing a thing. "They live near me" is generally not the reason you support something. You wouldn't root for the Westboro baptist church if you happened to live in that area. You wouldn't root for the KKK just because your neighbour was in it.
Somewhere, you have a reason why you're doing something. Thinking about that reason helps you understand what motivates your actions. Which is a valuable thing to know. Maybe it's just because I'm a programmer, but I've learned to distrust things that work without anyone knowing why they work. They always come back to bite you. Because something that happens to work properly for the wrong reasons tends to start working improperly when the circumstances change, while something that works properly for the right reasons, will always continue to work properly.
Also, I definately don't have to approve of the reason you have for doing something. The only thing that bothers me is when people don't even understand their own reasons for doing something. That kind of thing is potentially dangerous. And silly.
Quote from: "aitm"the shit people will argue about....I swear.. :Hangman:
Nothing is above being argued about. Life would be pretty boring if we couldn't argue about anything and everything. And still pretty primitive, too.
QuoteI also don't think that I should personally think the reason is a good one. I just think that the person holding the reason should understand his reasons for doing a thing. "They live near me" is generally not the reason you support something. You wouldn't root for the Westboro baptist church if you happened to live in that area. You wouldn't root for the KKK just because your neighbour was in it.
Okay, let me expand it then...
"They live near me AND are doing something good for society (entertainment/art)."
Just like I would donate to a local food pantry before a neighbours (assuming the people lived in roughly the same economic status or both had about the same stock of food).
Quote"They live near me AND are doing something good for society (entertainment/art)."
Sounds like a good reason to me.
Sports are not just for kids, that's nonsense.
I enjoy playing hockey but I get so much more out of it; it seriously helps to relieve stress, and I get the kind of physical exercise that is the most beneficial, that is in brief and intense intervals.
And really, spectator sports assume a very important role in our society as they create jobs and provide a boon to the local economy.
Its not actually the norm for people to die violently like this at sporting events.
Quote from: "Plu"Ok, there were multiple ways to interpret the question. Guess I picked the wrong one.
Do I know what's best for everyone? Not really, no. But that doesn't mean I can't point out things that are, at the least, an improvement over other things. Thinking about why you're doing something is one of those that is an improvement over not thinking about why you're doing things.
I also don't think that I should personally think the reason is a good one. I just think that the person holding the reason should understand his reasons for doing a thing. "They live near me" is generally not the reason you support something. You wouldn't root for the Westboro baptist church if you happened to live in that area. You wouldn't root for the KKK just because your neighbour was in it.
Somewhere, you have a reason why you're doing something. Thinking about that reason helps you understand what motivates your actions. Which is a valuable thing to know. Maybe it's just because I'm a programmer, but I've learned to distrust things that work without anyone knowing why they work. They always come back to bite you. Because something that happens to work properly for the wrong reasons tends to start working improperly when the circumstances change, while something that works properly for the right reasons, will always continue to work properly.
Also, I definately don't have to approve of the reason you have for doing something. The only thing that bothers me is when people don't even understand their own reasons for doing something. That kind of thing is potentially dangerous. And silly.
i try to do all the things you have said, i'm not disagreeing with you. i agree that "climbing a mountain because it's there" isn't a good enough reason for me to do it but that goes for a million different things as well. but it's just me. it may be for anyone else (good enough reason). there are lots of things I see where I shake my head at the thought process, or lack thereof. I try to implant my line of reasoning to my kids so that they think about why they are doing something.
my personal example is someone that gets alot of tattoos and then bitches why they can't find work.
Quote from: "Cocoa Beware"Sports are not just for kids, that's nonsense.
I enjoy playing hockey but I get so much more out of it; it seriously helps to relieve stress, and I get the kind of physical exercise that is the most beneficial, that is in brief and intense intervals.
And really, spectator sports assume a very important role in our society as they create jobs and provide a boon to the local economy.
Its not actually the norm for people to die violently like this at sporting events.
sweet, another hockey player.
I would play hockey if we had ice, I love the sport.
Though I know you are going to hate me for saying I am a Montreal, then Vancouver, then Philly fan...
Quotei agree that "climbing a mountain because it's there" isn't a good enough reason for me to do it but that goes for a million different things as well.
I would consider "climbing a mountain, to see if I can" a perfectly good reason to do it. "because it's there" isn't, because that isn't an actual reason. Under that reasoning, you'd also climb random hills you come across while walking, or buildings, or stuff that you can't legally climb. Since people probably don't do that, it means they're not using the proper reason, or don't know it.
Once you figure out that you're climbing mountains to see if you can, it's also a small step to figuring out what kind of stuff you want to climb, and not accidentally climbing something way out of your league (which could be fatal) or something way too easy (which would be boring, and leave you wondering why the thrill of climbing something that is there suddenly isn't worth it anymore)
EDIT: aren't hockey and ice-hockey two different things?
Quote from: "Plu"Quotei agree that "climbing a mountain because it's there" isn't a good enough reason for me to do it but that goes for a million different things as well.
I would consider "climbing a mountain, to see if I can" a perfectly good reason to do it. "because it's there" isn't, because that isn't an actual reason. Under that reasoning, you'd also climb random hills you come across while walking, or buildings, or stuff that you can't legally climb. Since people probably don't do that, it means they're not using the proper reason, or don't know it.
Once you figure out that you're climbing mountains to see if you can, it's also a small step to figuring out what kind of stuff you want to climb, and not accidentally climbing something way out of your league (which could be fatal) or something way too easy (which would be boring, and leave you wondering why the thrill of climbing something that is there suddenly isn't worth it anymore)
EDIT: aren't hockey and ice-hockey two different things?
i call ice hockey 'hockey' by default...probably because I'm canadian (as most do). There are probably other forms of hockey, field hockey for example but typically as a canadian if i used the term 'ice hockey' i'd be looked at like i had a second head.
Quote from: "Shiranu"I would play hockey if we had ice, I love the sport.
Though I know you are going to hate me for saying I am a Montreal, then Vancouver, then Philly fan...
Montreal, Vancouver, and Philly...wow, just wow do you kick puppies in your spare time too?
Okay. Ice hockey is very rare here, so it was confusing for me. "Hockey" usually refers to field hockey where I live.
no problem.
same if i said Football.
I mean the tackle kind and your first thought most likely would mean what I call soccer.
Yep. Football refers to soccer and what you're referring to is either called Rugby (which I'm pretty sure is a different sport all together) or American Football. Neither is very popular here. Soccer is huge, though.
Amazonian head hunters/football fans to ice hockey? Well aren't we stretching the limits of debate for the sake of just needing something to type.. :roll:
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"Amazonian head hunters/football fans to ice hockey? Well aren't we stretching the limits of debate for the sake of just needing something to type.. :roll:
hello pot...kettle calling...you're black.
no on is comparing what happened in the OP to ice hockey.
Quote from: "surly74"Quote from: "Shiranu"I would play hockey if we had ice, I love the sport.
Though I know you are going to hate me for saying I am a Montreal, then Vancouver, then Philly fan...
Montreal, Vancouver, and Philly...wow, just wow do you kick puppies in your spare time too?
Noooo...
Um, what about... um...
ummmm...
The um...
Phoenix is okay... lol.
Quote from: "Shiranu"I would play hockey if we had ice, I love the sport.
Though I know you are going to hate me for saying I am a Montreal, then Vancouver, then Philly fan...
Canuck fan myself. 8-[
You made an interesting point about how there is an artistic aspect in sports, and I think youre onto something. Ive always found creative playmaking very pleasing to the eye.
I might even include the uniforms too; for example the Habs have beautiful jerseys.